Panthers Win 4-2, Outshine Flyers in Sunrise
by Ben Rothenberg on Oct 16, 2009 10:39 PM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Game Recaps - 09-10
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PrintSo much for Philly teams knowing what to do with one-point leads.
The Flyers led twice but never delivered a knock out punch, eventually allowing a shorthanded goal by Radek Dvorak midway through the third that wound up being the game winner.
The Flyers lacked explosiveness the whole game, going through the motions against a Panthers team that isn't as bad as they looked in the earlier part of the season.
Some additional thoughts:
- They only gave up three real goals, but the Flyers defensemen were hugely unimpressive. Chris Pronger's turnover on the Flyers' powerplay led to a game ending shorthanded goal. Kimmo Timonen and others did a horrible job of clearing Panthers players from the front of the net, leading directly to the first two goals.
- It's great when a guy like Arron Asham can score, but I gotta think that him scoring relatively early and easily made the rest of the team think they were in for a pretty easy night. The energy level was great going into that goal, and never recovered.
- As much as the Flyers incredible +15 margin on shorthanded goals was seen as more of a bonus than a necessity last season, it's becoming clear early on how huge that category was. Already with two shorthanded goals against and with none for, the Flyers are seeing the momentum swings that shorties carry from the other side. They MUST shore up the power play defensively, it's that simple. three shorthanded goals against in the last seven regular season games is totally unacceptable.
- During his first intermission interview on FSN Florida, Mike Richards was gasping for air so much he could hardly speak. Looked like a symptom of poor conditioning, which hasn't been seen as an issue on this team for a long time.
- Ray Emery wasn't totally to blame for any of the three goals, but he was definitely not spectacular, either. Three straight losses makes me wonder when Brian Boucher is going to see his first action.
- Good for Claude Giroux to get his first of the year, even if it wasn't pretty. Still a bunch of top forwards (Gagne, Pyorala, JVR) waiting to get their first.
- The Asham-Giroux-Pyorala line is an intriguing one--I'd definitely like to see more of it.
With this third loss in a row, the Flyers drop to .500 on the year, at 3-2-1. They remain five points behind both the Rangers and Penguins, and sit at third in the Atlantic.
After the jump, the pre-game questions answered, as well as your thoughts and reactions to this 4-2 loss.
Questions answered:
- Will James van Riemsdyk make much of an impact in his first game back? Not enormous, but definitely an impact. He made a nice pass to set up Asham's goal, but other than that he was not particularly visible.
- How will the team react to the long layoff and vacation-like activities of the past week? They definitely didn't look game-tough. It probably had more to do with the long layoff than the fishing and sailing, though.
- Can the defense take positives out of the Anaheim game, but still avoid the breakdowns that led to the Anaheim comeback (poor line changes, losing open men, etc.)? The defense did different things wrong today. They did a terrible job of clearing guys out from the slot, and Pronger coughed up a costly turnover that gave Florida the game winner.
- Since Pronger, Laperriere, and Emery were added in part for their hatred of losing, how does the team respond to back-to-back losses, especially against an inferior team? They responded by making it back-to-back-to-back losses.
Another long layoff until the next game, back in Philadelphia vs. the Bruins. Plenty of questions to be answered before that.
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During his first intermission interview on FSN Florida, Mike Richards was gasping for air so much he could hardly speak. Looked like a symptom of poor conditioning, which hasn’t been seen as an issue on this team for a long time.
I think the layoff and lighter practice schedule had something to do with that. They were on “team bonding” and were not hitting the ice every day as they usually do. I would be VERY surprised if the Flyers were not in good shape physically.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
It’s actually because richards had just completed a 56 second shift to end the period.
Nothing unusual about that.
give these guys a chance to gain rhythm… playin 3 games in 13 days isnt normal. i still consider this the preseason in retrospect … they seemed to not be able to handle the puck like they are used to as well as not making the right hockey plays or simple plays. too fancy, it’ll come back to ’em… give our flyers a chance
Pronger certainly is guilty of trying to do too much, he needs to drop back out of the zone and control that puck instead of hoping for the perfect play.
That said, it would be really fantastic if Ray Emery would leave the fucking crease.
Here’s two stills from the breakaway, Emery is way too deep in his net which is why that puck goes in:
(This one is as the shot is taken)
Chris Pronger, of course, may have made that mistake because he logged 30:21 TOI. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Danny Syvret logged 8:11 in a game when they only had five Dmen. Parent left after logging 2:46 of ice time. That left 117 minutes of TOI for the five defensemen, or about 23:00 per dman left in the game. And Danny Syvret can only be trusted with eight of them? WHY IS HE ON THE TEAM?
It’s great to know they can’t even get Randy Jones back. Seriously, what happens when Kimmo or Pronger leave a game early? Will we see Coburn, Pronger, and Carle all log 40 minutes?
While we’re on TOI, what the FUCK is JVR doing taking a 2:22 shift in the third period? That’s not a typo. Two Minutes and Twenty-Two Seconds. He logged 14:03 total. 1/6 of his TOI tonight took place in a single shift out of his 19 shifts for the night. I remember exactly which shift it was and I know how it happened, but he needs to get the fuck off the ice regardless of whats going on once he hits the 90 second mark.
Darryl Powe is now -3 in six games.
JVR shift
On that shift Carter JVR and Briere were controlling the play in the offensive zone cycling around like mad men and winning battles. Do you want him to jump off the ice when they Panthers pinned in. I don’t. You have to hope for a icing on a penalty or a goal when you FLA is chasing the play like that. Neither happened but it still was a good inspiring shift that resulted in a scoring chance. Plus FLA players were out there just as long playing more taxing defense. Numbers lie.
Okay so regardless of where the puck is located and the amount of pressure a line is generating at the 1:30 mark you have got to back off and go for a change giving the opposition a free out? Is this another MarioD no exception rule of hockey? In the 2nd period you can change in the offensive zone during the cycle but that is not possible in the 1st and 3rd periods. Once again I don’t understand where you are coming from if the shift drew a penalty or scored a goal would you be complaining then? The defenders would be just as tired putting the Flyers at an advantage being on the attack. Also there wasn’t a single negative that resulted from that shift, Flyers didn’t take a penalty, no goals scored against, once again it seems that MarioD went through the box score to find a negative to bash JVR, who is averaging a point per game and whose play last night was one of the few positives you could take out of the game. Especially considering he is coming back from a concussion and hasn’t played in 10 days. But of course JVR has to get bashed. His 4 pts and 0 +/- in 4 games (3-1 record) is killing us, we should trade him for Malhotra and bring up Jones.
Okay so regardless of where the puck is located and the amount of pressure a line is generating at the 1:30 mark you have got to back off and go for a change giving the opposition a free out?
Yes.
As you saw at the 2:00 mark of the shift, JVR literally stopped skating and doubled over in the offensive zone which is how Florida cleared the puck.
Let’s look at the conversation above, where Richards had a 56 second shift to end the first, went up the tunnel, and did an interview during which he was still out of breath.
1:30 is already a double shift. 2:20 is a TRIPLE SHIFT.
After 1:30 (double shift) get off the ice unless you’re in the defensive zone.
Once again I don’t understand where you are coming from if the shift drew a penalty or scored a goal would you be complaining then?
Yes, absolutely, positively, yes.
Also there wasn’t a single negative that resulted from that shift
Nor was there going to be a positive. By taking a triple shift, JVR guaranteed that he would be too tired to be able to create a scoring chance, either. So he wasted about a minute of ice time.
Forgot this part:
The defenders would be just as tired putting the Flyers at an advantage being on the attack.
The shift was from 12:21 of the third until 14:43. Here are the Panther’s on ice during that time period.
Keith Balard: 11:18 to 12:33
David Booth: 12:20 to 13:21
Kamil Kreps: 12:20 to 13:21
Dmitry Kulikov: 12:33 to 13:21
Bryan Allen: 12:33 to 13:21
Gregory Campbell: 12:44 to 13:21
Jordan Leopold: 13:21 to 14:46
Corey Stillman: 13:21 to 14:46
Denis Seidenberg: 13:21 to 14:46 *
Radek Dvorak: 13:21 to 14:46
Dominic Moore: 13:21 to 13:58
During JVR’s triple shift, no Panther was on the ice for more than 1:25.
A guy who’s entering the second minute of his shift is totally worthless against an opponent who has only been on the ice for half that time.
Mario is right (whether you like it or not). I hate to throw out the if you’ve ever played hockey in your life line, but if you have, you know that there is an effective way to change lines on the attack. If you’ve been out there for more than 90 seconds, you are pretty much worthless.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 19, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I was waiting for that
If you’re going to rag on Darroll Powe, please spell his name right.
Also this:
Danny Syvret logged 8:11 in a game when they only had five Dmen. Parent left after logging 2:46 of ice time. That left 117 minutes of TOI for the five defensemen, or about 23:00 per dman left in the game. And Danny Syvret can only be trusted with eight of them? WHY IS HE ON THE TEAM?
There is not a team in the NHL that gives equal time to all three defensive pairings. Not one.
It’s great to know they can’t even get Randy Jones back.
This from the man who says the Flyers had plenty of room to sign both Betts and Malhotra. Imagine if they had done so. They’d have even less margin for error in the event of an injury, and they’d still have needed to send Jones to the minors with no hope of calling him back up.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
There is not a team in the NHL that gives equal time to all three defensive pairings. Not one.
And there’s not a team in the league that only plays four defensemen night in, night out. I mean, besides the Flyers.
This from the man who says the Flyers had plenty of room to sign both Betts and Malhotra. Imagine if they had done so. They’d have even less margin for error in the event of an injury, and they’d still have needed to send Jones to the minors with no hope of calling him back up.
What the fuck are you talking about?
To clarify:
What the fuck are you talking about?
In another thread, you had suggested it would have been better for the Flyers to sign both Betts and Malhotra so that Powe would not be on the team.
If the Flyers had signed both Betts and Malhotra, they would have less cap space to work with than they do now. In fact, if they got both Betts AND Malhotra and kept Jones up while having Powe and Syvret on the Phantoms, they’d probably be right up against the ceiling again, if not over it.
You also said:
It’s great to know they can’t even get Randy Jones back.
Say they had signed both Malhotra and Betts, Powe and Jones were on the Phantoms, and Syvret with the Flyers. And let’s say for the sake of argument that everything else happened exactly the same way it already has this year – 3-2-1, Parent out with a lower body injury that is not expected to keep him out of action for long. They wouldn’t be able to call up Jones anyway without putting other players on waivers.
So if things had worked out the way you wanted them to in the first place, they STILL would not be able to get Jones back.
That’s what the fuck I’m talking about.
Also this:
And there’s not a team in the league that only plays four defensemen night in, night out. I mean, besides the Flyers.
I agree that the third pairing should see more time on the ice, but unless you split the skill level fairly evenly among the three pairings, that’s not going to happen. When Parent gets healthy, they could conceivably do this:
Carle-Pronger
Timonen-Parent
Coburn-Syvret
But the third pairing generally plays against the 3rd-4th lines of the other team, so their ice time is going to be lower.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
If the Flyers had signed both Betts and Malhotra, they would have less cap space to work with than they do now.
Factually incorrect. If the Flyers had signed Malhotra and Betts, and dumped Powe to the AHL, they’d be $180k poorer. That’s less than one third of one percent of the salary cap.
This is why I didn’t know what you were talking about, because it’s so wildly inaccurate.
I agree that the third pairing should see more time on the ice, but unless you split the skill level fairly evenly among the three pairings, that’s not going to happen.
[I just fucking hit F5 by accident and lost a lengthy-researched post with the TOI for last year for the Dmen of Detroit, San Jose, and Anaheim compared to the Flyers and I’m not doing all that again.]
You’re concept of TOI is insane.
Ryan Parent, excluding the game in which he was injured, has averaged about 14:30 TOI. OKT averages 6:47 and Syvret averages 8:44. There is no other team that uses it’s third pairing less, and it has nothing to do with balance of talent. Detroit, Anaheim, and San Jose last year all used their sixth defensemen for at least 12mins a game, and none of them had a 5th dman under 15mins a game.
Besides that, no team balances out its three pairings, they all go top heavy.
B y comparison, David Sloane last year, the warm body they used at MSG for cap reasons, got 6:44 of ice time in that game.
Syvret only got about two shifts more of ice time than that when the Flyers were playing with five defensemen! John Stevens is treating Syvret and OKT the same way he treated that kid.
Stevens’ actions are clearly and unquestionably expressing the fact that he has no confidence in his third pairing. This is an abortion of a roster Holmgren handed him. They would literally be better off just dressing 13 forwards.
This is an abortion of a roster Holmgren handed him.
Or maybe it’s just Stevens’ style. If you think Stevens is bad with his third pairing, you should have seen Mike Keenan during the 1980s. Howe, McCrimmon, Marsh, and Crossman were always on the ice. I barely remember Tomas Eriksson playing.
Other than that, I don’t think it’s the roster that’s the problem as much as the payroll is. If Jones were earning less – and playing better – we might not be having this conversation. Besides, isn’t it up to the coach to decide who makes the team and who doesn’t? Stevens is not Homer’s puppet. If he is, then Homer should just get back behind the bench.
Stevens obviously liked what he saw in Syvret during camp; otherwise the latter would not be here. Maybe he will see more ice time as the season goes on. Before this season, he played a total of 28 games in the NHL. Since that’s the case, perhaps Stevens is trying to ease him into a more regular role. I don’t know since I’m not John Stevens. You’re not John Stevens either, so I don’t know how you can automatically assume that he has “no confidence” in Syvret.
And let’s get away from the name-calling and dismissiveness, shall we? It doesn’t hurt my feelings or anything when you call my point of view “insane.” By the same token, whenever I (or someone else) has a different point of view from yours, you dismiss it as incorrect, stupid, or crazy. If we see things differently, that’s all well and good. It doesn’t mean we have to be uncivil about it. This attitude hinders discussion because it automatically rejects other opinions which may have some validity.
Besides, you bring plenty of good things to the table here, especially your analytical abilities. You can be right as rain about that stuff without shoving it down others’ throats.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Besides, isn’t it up to the coach to decide who makes the team and who doesn’t?
We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes for sure. But it’s traditionally the GM’s job to set the roster and the coach’s job to decide who to dress. I’ve never heard it stated otherwise for the Flyers. So, no.
I don’t know how you can automatically assume that he has "no confidence" in Syvret.
Because when John Stevens had to coach a game with only five defensemen, he still chose to allow Syvret only eight minutes of ice time. There are only two possible conclusions to draw from this: (1) Syvret was also hurt. (2) Stevens doesn’t trust Syvret.
The Flyers have 4 defenseman in the Top 27 in the NHL in TOI/G. Pronger (1st), Cobrun (12th), Carle (16th), and Timonen (27th). That’s more than any other team in the league. Anaheim has 3, ranking 5th, 11th, and 13th in Niedermayer, Whitney, and Wisniewski. Assuming (I don’t know this as fact) Mikkelson’s 3 games were in relief of an injured Wisniewski (4 games), the 5th defenseman gets 12:32 TOI/G (Sbisa) while the 6th defensemen get 11:59 and 11:22 per game.
So, the closest comparison to the Flyers defensive TOI is Anaheim, who does it very similarly. Except, the 5 minute difference in our sixth defenseman goes to Pronger and Timonen, since our 1st and 4th get 5 extra minutes than Anaheim’s 1st and 4th. Just sayin’
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Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure that playing the third pairing for 12:30 and 11:30 can be considered “very similar” to playing a third pairing for 14:30 and 8:00. That’s the closest comparable, but that’s still a hell of a lot more balance.
There’s 180 dmen in the league, and the Flyers have 4 of the top 27 in TOI? That just can’t continue.
It’s comparable because they play their top 3 as often as we play our top three, but our 4th D gets more ice time, and our top D gets more ice time than theirs. The difference is that our 4th D gets 3 minutes more than their 4th D (I think Kimmo certainly deserves more ice time than Steve Eminger) and our 1st D gets nearly 2 minutes more ice time than their first. So, that time has to detract from someone’s ice time, at it makes sense to be the 6th D.
We agree that this pattern cannot continue. But we disagree on the reasoning behind it. I think it reflects more on our top 4 than it does on our bottom two, and I think Syvret deserves to be given at least 11 minutes of ice time a game. If he doesn’t get that much, then Homer needs to talk to Stevens and the two of them need to figure out what the problem is.
But while we’re on the topic of low ice team signifying a lack of trust, why is Riley Cote still on this team?
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Cote is out there to fight instead of screwing up the third line and removing Carcillo/Lappy for five minutes and be a chemistry guy.
I understand what you’re saying, but the fact that Syvret still only got 8 minutes when Parent was gone for the entire game and they played Pronger for more than half of the game instead is pretty conclusive that it’s not “get the good players on the ice” so much as it is “keep the bad players off the ice”.
Now, the only caveat to that is the fact that the Flyers had six days off before that game and five days off after that game. I can only assume that if they had a game tonight, Stevens would’ve used Syvret more.
But the fact is, letting Alberts leave is looking like a pretty terrible decision.
But Cote isn’t fighting. He has played 4:04 in two games, and has 2 penalty minutes. So, the argument that he’s there to fight fails if he isn’t fighting. In fact, his 2 PIM came from NOT fighting.
As far as “keep the bad players off the ice”, see my comment above. Syvret has been on the ice for 35 minutes this year, letting in one goal. That’s third best on the team. There is no evidence this year that he’s a “bad player”.
I agree that Stevens probably would have used him more if there was a game tonight, but he also would have used Syvret more if the Flyers weren’t losing.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s no evidence of anything because Stevens has watched Syvret play every day for two months and realizes that Danny Syvret is not a viable NHL defenseman.
Your stats are based on a ridiculous sample size of 30 minutes in four games. The fact is, Danny Syvret is buried on the bench this season even when he’s desperately needed. That tells you everything you need to know about him.
Why does that not tell you what you need to know about Stevens? In fact, that tells us NOTHING about Danny Syvret. As a lawyer, you should know that the absence of evidence isn’t evidence of anything.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Because I trust John Stevens, especially with young players.
I also trust the fact that the Flyers last season decided to dress Luca Sbisa instead of Syvret when they lost their third pairing in pre-season.
Especially with young players, except when it comes to Darroll Powe? How can you even say you trust John Stevens when you criticize all of the young players he decides to play? In case you forget, here’s your quote:
[Sbisa] played terribly before he was sent back to juniors. He looked exactly like a kid who wasn’t ready for the NHL. Carried the puck too much and made bad decisions without the puck. His -2.1 GVT ranked just barely better than Darrol Powe, good for second worst on the team. And he took a penalty every other game, all of them minors. Sbisa’s terrible performance last season is what you can expect from JVR if he were to start this year in the NHL.
So, you don’t want Sbisa to play, you don’t want Powe to play, you don’t want JVR to play, and you don’t want Syvret to play. Yet, you trust John Stevens’ decision to play them all, except Syvret.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You confuse “play” with “be on the roster”. Sbisa on the roster was a necessity when Parent and Jones went down. Powe was a necessity when a number of forwards (Nodl, Kalinski, Gratton, Cote) went down and Metropolit was lost to the salary cap.
Sbisa’s average TOI was 17mins. 8th out of the defensemen they used last season.
Darrell Powe averaged 10:38 of ice time last season, 12th on the team. This season he’s getting 11:38, 10th on the team, a number that has increased due to Betts’ injury. Syvret averages 8:30 TOI.
They’re on the roster, but Stevens doesn’t play those guys.
Hm, you used the word "dress" right above this.
But, nice pivot.
So Andrew Alberts didn’t “play” last year, despite having 1,247:53 of ice time? Since he only averaged 15:47 – less than Sbisa – he was merely "on the roster.
He also doesn’t “play” Dan Carcillo and Arron Asham, since they got less TOI/G than Darroll Powe. And if Powe was merely a “necessity”, why did he stay on the roster while Nodl, Kalinski, and Gratton finished the year on the Phantoms, after returning from injury? Why was Powe the only one of the four on the playoff roster?
Your argument gets more convoluted every response you have. Especially when you look at Darroll Powe’s even strength ice time before Betts’ injury compared to Claude Giroux’s:
Powe: 9:59; 11:25; 8:38
Giroux: 8:05; 10:23; 8:59
Oh, clearly John Stevens doesn’t “play” Giroux either, unless it’s on the PP. And seriously, do you still not know how to spell Powe’s name?
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm, you used the word “dress” right above this.
And each of those words have different meanings… what’s your point?
So Andrew Alberts didn’t "play" last year, despite having 1,247:53 of ice time? Since he only averaged 15:47 – less than Sbisa – he was merely "on the roster.
Yes, Stevens hid Alberts down the stretch last season. But he still had twice as much TOI as Syvret/OKT get.
And if Powe was merely a "necessity", why did he stay on the roster while Nodl, Kalinski, and Gratton finished the year on the Phantoms, after returning from injury?
You already know the answer to this question, but I’ll play the charade…
Nodl – $850k
Kalinski – $875k
Gratton – $550k
Powe – $520k
The discussion gets more convoluted because you keep throwing out silly topics like the one above…
And this one:
Oh, clearly John Stevens doesn’t "play" Giroux either
TOI
Giroux – 16:15
Powe – 11:38
There’s no comparisons to be made between the two.
The argument got convoluted as soon as you started saying you trust John Stevens, then clarified that you only trust John Stevens with young players, then argued that by young players you don’t mean with how he played Luca Sbisa or Darroll Powe, and then specified that by “play” you meant “be on the roster”, and by “be on the roster” you meant “dress”, except, wait, what’s your point? Even then, you still don’t consider over 1200 minutes of ice time “playing” since he was “hidden” late in the season. Now that’s convoluted.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
then clarified that you only trust John Stevens with young players
I actually said:
Because I trust John Stevens, especially with young players.
“especially” and “only” are very different things
then argued that by young players you don’t mean with how he played Luca Sbisa or Darroll Powe
No, actually, I pointed to the fact that he barely plays those guys as evidence of why I trust him…
then specified that by "play" you meant "be on the roster", and by "be on the roster" you meant "dress",
No, that was your argument. I meant three very different things by those three very different words.
“on the roster” means who Paul Holmgren gives John Stevens.
“dress” means which ones, amongst the players he is given by Holmgren, John Stevens allows to sit on the bench
“play” means the amount of TOI Stevens gives those guys he allows to sit on the bench.
Last year, Holmgren’s hand was forced by injuries and salary cap into giving John Stevens players like Sbisa and Powe. Stevens had no extra players on the roster, so he had to allow them to sit on the bench.
The result of having no extra players was that “be on the roster” was synonymous with “dress” for those guys, based on the fact that Holmgren gave Stevens a roster without any extra players.
However, John Stevens, despite having no choice (due to the roster he was given) as to who would dress, made sure they played as little as possible.
This season, Holmgren has screwed up by giving John Stevens players like Syvret and OKT. Stevens has no option but to allow one (with Parent’s injury, now both) of those players to sit on the bench.
However, Stevens has gone to absurd measures to insure that those players don’t actually get to play in the game.
Even then, you still don’t consider over 1200 minutes of ice time "playing"
I DON’T CARE HOW MANY TOTAL MINUTES A PLAYER IS ON THE ICE FOR. That’s a fucking assinine argument. It’s minutes/game that matter. And the fact is, Alberts amount of ice time per game ranked 205th amongst only defensemen in the NHL.
Let me say that again. Andrew Alberts TOI per game was 205th in the league last season.
That means John Stevens allowed Andrew Alberts very limited playing time last season.
But the fact is, letting Alberts leave is looking like a pretty terrible decision.
I agree – I thought Alberts was a solid, physical 3rd pair d-man. I was hoping that OKT would be able to pick up where Alberts left off, but he has not yet had the ice time…
by SanDiegoScraps on Oct 19, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Alberts was a nice pick up playing solid before Christmas but down the stretch he was a no hitting turnover machine. He couldn’t get the puck out of the zone and nothing is worse than a big man who won’t hit. He played himself out of a contract lets not get too carried away now after 6 games and 3-2-1 record is still better than 0-3-3 especially considering the teams we played.
Chris Pronger, of course, may have made that mistake because he logged 30:21 TOI.
The puck was bouncing and Pronger was trying to keep it in the zone. He failed to do so and the other team had a shorthanded scoring opportunity. Something like that happens once a week in the NHL
Perhaps fatigue clouded Pronger’s judgment some, but at the end of the day he was just doing what all d-men do on the power play – pinching to keep the puck in the zone. Sometimes you get burned doing that.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Darrol Powe is not the reason for losing ANY of these games. Maybe he has taken a few untimely penalties – mistakes of trying to do too much at once. He has otherwise been a very solid player.
Mariod – You know as well as anyone that Plus/Minus is not a very valid statistic for judging a players worth – especially when you are talking about 6 whole games. He may be a -3, but so are Briere and Lappy… Kimmo and Coburn are both -4, and there are 7 other “minus” players on the Flyers as well – including Richards, Carter and Hartnell.
And as for Jones – Just what a struggling, turn-over prone defense needs… Randy Jones. Puh-leaze.
by SanDiegoScraps on Oct 17, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He may be a -3, but so are Briere and Lappy… Kimmo and Coburn are both -4,
Average time on ice per game:
Coburn – 25:26
Timmonen – 23:59
Briere – 17:35
Laperriere – 12:25
Powe – 11:38
Of course it’s not a great stat. In Darryl Powe’s case, it makes him look like a better player than he is since he gets little ice time.
For what it’s worth, Powe has a higher QualComp than all four of those players. So, in Darroll Powe’s case, it makes him look like a worse player than he really is. And with that stiffer competition, he’s also giving up less shots on net per 60 minutes than all four of those players. So, you’re using plus/minus and ice time, while ignoring who he’s playing against (better competition) and how many shots are getting on net (fewer) to say he’s worse. You’re cherry picking. And if you come back with some sort of argument, I’ll just use the defense you used in slamming JVR: If people want to say he’s a terrible player simply looking at plus/minus and ice time, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to point out that he’s better than you’re letting on, as evidenced by the stiffer competition and the shots he’s letting up.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Source for qualcomp? I don’t know where those stats are available.
As I made clear after the Anaheim game, Powe should not be playing against that level of competition.
Behind the Net: Found here.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, more stats from Behind the Net. I know you dislike counting stats, so here are rating stats:
Syvret’s GA/60: 1.74; Behind only Pronger and Carle
SF/60 minus SA/60: -1.8; Compare to Timonen (-1.4); Coburn (-1.7); Parent (-3.4)
And all of this because Syvret was only on the ice for one goal against in 35 minutes of ice time. I don’t think Syvret has done anything to warrant criticism at all. If anything, Stevens should be getting slammed for not utilizing his roster.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Danny Syvret has like 30 mins of ice time this season. Compared to like 140 minutes for Coburn and Kimmo? It’s way too early to look at any of that stuff.
I’m not criticizing Syvret particularly, he doesn’t play enough to effect the game. I’m criticizing Holmgren for handing Stevens two dmen who can’t be trusted to play enough to have an affect on the game.
But there is no evidence to suggest they can’t be trusted. None. So, how do you and Stevens’ know they can’t be trusted? The only evidence there is suggests that Syvret can be, at least as much as Coburn and Parent.
You keep blaming Holmgren, yet so far nothing suggests that he gave Stevens subpar players.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
8 minutes in a game when they had 5 defensemen tells you Stevens doesn’t trust him.
If you want to blame Stevens, go right ahead and make that ridiculous argument. The fact is, Stevens does not want Danny Syvret on the ice in any circumstance.
We have no sample size to base anything on. Stevens has more experience than any of us and has watched Syvret play every day for a month and a half now. And would rather play with just two defensive pairings than let Syvret on the ice.
Again, it doesn’t tell us anything. And even accepting your conclusion that Stevens doesn’t trust him, that still doesn’t prove that he’s unworthy of his trust. Stevens watched Randy Jones every game last year and still played him, but that doesn’t prove he’s worthy of NHL ice. Stats prove that.
For someone who relies so heavily on stats, you sure are defaulting to Stevens’ logic on this one. So, Powe is shitty because stats tell you he is, despite Stevens trusting him. But Syvret is shitty when stats tell you he is isn’t, because “Stevens doesn’t trust him.”
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 18, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Why does it have to boil down to quality of a players play? Could this be a cap problem?
Mario, I haven’t done any research, but could the reason that Syvret is playing is simply because after they decided that they wanted to keep JVR and sign Betts, that they literally had to make room for both these guys by sending Jones to the minors and keep Syvret on the roster, despite the fact that he’s not an NHL caliber defenseman.
This would explain why Stevens utilizes him sparingly.
Also, the trade off to keeping Syvret and signing Betts is that when a d-man gets injured, the team is quite literally screwed because we can’t bring Jones up and the alternatives (cheap guys) on the Phantoms are worse than Syvret.
Just a thought.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant “keeping JVR”
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That basically is Mario’s point. Apologies if I’m getting your opinion wrong, Mario, but he’s been arguing that JVR and Syvret isn’t worth losing Jones. Besides the fact that I disagree with the premise, who’s to say Syvret isn’t an NHL caliber defenseman? If he’s not playing, he’s not proving that statement true or false. Maybe he isn’t good enough for the NHL, but how do we know? John Stevens simply not playing him doesn’t prove that point, since he can’t succeed or fail. That’s my point.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 19, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You have my point correct. Except that there’s nothing to be done about Jones now, so Holmgren needs to go trade for a defenseman ASAP.
Trade for a D-man?
Yes, but who?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 19, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
JVR
Well, I’m certainly not a JVR “hater”, but you can count me in on the crowd that believed he would have been better suited starting the season in the AHL. If the price of keeping JVR and signing Betts is having to play Danny Syvret and having zero cap room to play with should a defenseman get injured, then I’d say it was a bad decision by Holmgren.
Now I’m not a Jones lover, in fact, i was happy he was put on waivers, but I do know that if Jones were on the roster, he’d have played a lot more minutes on Friday night (if he was in Syvret’s slot). Secondly, the defense has been awful so far (as a group) and I’m scared to see Tollefson in this lineup for the next 3-4 games. Emery is gonna face a shooting gallery.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 19, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Cap room is there
The Flyers have 1.8 million is cap space, sending Jones down is what freed up space to make room. Also the minutes played in that game is more likely than not nothing to do with Svyvert but something to do with the schedule. Being the only hockey game in 11 days why throw out mismatched pairings in a close games when you could played your top guys an extra 2 – 4 shifts in the game.
they have plenty of room to add a D-Man but no room for 2.7 million that Randy Jones is making, 5 games in give the D sometime before you panic. It is not Svyert that is hurt is the poor play of Coburn-Timmonen and adding another D man isn’t going to fix that.
not necessarily.
I remember when people talked about Pronger when he was in Edmonton. They would analyze and talk about his abnormally high number of giveaways etc., but when broken down compared to his TOI, it was not that bad.
Therein lies the point. Bringing in another D-man, who Stevens feels confident in (which is not Syvret) who can handle 12-15 minutes a game (vs. 8) would help the entire D-corps by reducing the top line minutes and hopefully, allow them to play with the same intensity in the third period as they do in the first (because they aren’t gassed from playing 30 minutes a game).
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 19, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade Coburn
What do think on entertaining the idea of moving Coburn you could probably get something nice in return and his contract is up at the end of the year if the cap drops he might be hard to keep around. I know it is early to give up on him but I would be listening to offers and see if I can package him for another top 9 winger and a solid D-Man to pair with Kimmo. Just a thought I probably wouldn’t do but you never know.
Defense had nothing to do with it
Everybody check this out the Defense had nothing to do with that loss. MarioD expects us to win every game 2-1 I hate to rain on your parade but that is not how this team tries to play anymore. The Flyers as mentioned in the offseason are much more aggressive with both the forwards and defense they generated more than enough quality scoring chances to net 4 – 5 goals and on most nights that would have walked out with a nice 3 goal win. But shit happens and team was snake bitten up front the puck would just not go in, hit 3-4 posts and despite outplaying the Panthers they still lost. Oh well if they play like that most nights they will get the W. So far we haven’t been terribly at outplayed 5 on 5, shots against are down, we haven’t played the prototypical 40 minute game that resulted in countless losses last year. The team is will get much better with the new system as the season goes on and the Coburn-Timmonen pairing will start playing a better. If want this team to play a defensive 1st system that has failed in the past that is an argument you can make but I think it is a waste of time to whine about the defense that played well enough to get the win. This type of loss it going to be typical of how we lose most of our games this year, I rather see us lose being over aggressive than lose being overly passive. For one I think it better fits our lineup and two it will result is more wins. To sum it up don’t expect this team to play shutdown hockey if we played this aggressive last year we the defensive core we had then I we would be sitting with nearly zero wins at Halloween for the second straight year.
In my uneducated opinion, our boys looked like they were trying to be too fancy last night. So much passing on the power play, sometimes the best pass is a shot on goal.
I get terrified every time I see a breakaway, maybe Emery should have been using Berube’s giant fish instead of his stick. That seems to be what they were thinking about.
unimpressed
sad to see the Flyers like this, its still too early to let all hope go but against a team like Florida, this should be a win….might be a battle, but should be a win. It wasn’t, wasn’t impressed with anything going on in our zone defensively and Emery again looked shakey. (agreed with NoalB about the breakaways too) Please Please Please, stop just one….
Things need to shape up if we are to compete with the Pitt and NYRangers….
Maybe instead of Pronger, we should have went after Giggy when we traded with the Ducks….but it is what it is.
Hopefully our boys rally and turn this season into gold, there is still plenty of time.
Nash for 8 More, Baby!
You’d rather have gone after an overpaid perhaps-on-the-decline goalie while sticking with last year’s D instead of getting a decently-underpaid goalie and improving the D Pronger-fold?
by Ben Feldman on Oct 17, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
well isn’t Pronger being accused of being “on-the-decline”, as well. I mean he is a step in the right direction with forming some solid D-lines to match-up with the Crosby-Malkin type scoring lines… but obviously we are still getting caught with the same problems as last year… gassed out poor 3rd period performance and making bad turnovers (sorry Coburn) and who knows, maybe a change in scenery would have done Giggy some good – - – having a hot rookie goaltender (Hiller) seemingly taking his #1 spot out from under him, might have left a bad taste in his mouth. ??? but whatever.
Either way it would have been a gamble, I do believe that this is the theme for this year in Philly….roll the dice and go big. Not disappointed that we went with Pronger just saying that I think it might have helped getting a more solid net minder instead of a ?
The D isn’t the Achilles Heel in Philly, it is always the goalie….
Nash for 8 More, Baby!
by PhillyPhan85 on Oct 17, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
again…just my opinion.
Nash for 8 More, Baby!
by PhillyPhan85 on Oct 17, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The real problem...
is our defense, even though we got Pronger, it still hasn’t improved one bit. I still think Razor is better then what we had the last few(many) years, but I never expected him to be a top 5 goalie. Again, the main problem with this team is its god awful defense….and Im looking at Pronger and Coburn and the Danny/OTK switch-a-roo, all 3 have been poor so far this year
Oh great, and now we don’t play again until Thursday…
Who the fuck is in control of this team’s defense?!?!?
by Mitchell Green on Oct 17, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions
I was at the game, (haha, like that makes me an authority) and the Flyers definitely ran out of gas late in the second. I live in Florida, so I know what a week of being out in the sun etc. can do to you. You don’t feel it, but it definitely saps your energy. I’m not willing to blame it on that, but it played a part for sure.
As for the game itself, the Flyers did dominate for much of 2 periods. They got unlucky with some posts.
However, as has already been mentioned. Emery was largely unspectacular. He looks almost timid in net.
The defense is awful. I am surprised at how bad it is. Pronger played with zero intensity. It’s as if, the rest of the defense just expects him to do everything and so they just play casually. Last season, it seemed that they knew they were not that strong, so they played hard every game, this season, it’s like they read the press clippings too much about how great they were going to be.
The offense is exciting to be sure. There are a lot of nice pieces in place, but some of these guys definitely need to finish. Clemmer didn’t stand on his head last night as the Cats D did a nice job of clogging up the middle of the ice. Because of all the finesse the Flyers have, it is like they are trying to get too cute. This is something that I actually worried about preseason. Losing Knuble, who was the ultimate mucker in front of the net, is proving a bigger loss right now then many people think. I did not see a lot of guys battling to stand in front of Clemmer. The Cats were able to force everyone outside or to the top of the slot, where they were able to contain or block the shots. I think Pittsburgh did this pretty successfully to us as well. We need some guys to start paying the price to stand in front and establish some positioning.
It’s only a couple games into the season and these guys definitely need to learn to play together still.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions
The Defense has "Lindros Syndrome"?
They wait around for one guy to do everything? Same as back then, it’s a coaching/motivation issue.
by Mike B on D on Oct 19, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts too fancy nobody wants to shoot trying to pass too much especially on that god awful ice I don’t remember too many times seeing snow flying around with 12 minutes left in the period. Long layoff hurt, rust showed along with the early departure of Parent. Under all those conditions a simpler approach should have been taken shoot the puck and go to the net instead of all this spin around criss cross fancy wait for the perfect shot stuff they were doing last night. If the puck would have sat down they would have scored 5 goals easy but on that ice no chance. Emery made a couple of really nice saves but once again failed to make the key save on the defensive breakdowns. Coburn looked better which isn’t saying a lot and the team played physical but Florida played simple, shots from the point with traffic and won the game. If we did that I think the story would have been much different.
Great Point – I too noticed this…
It’s great when a guy like Arron Asham can score, but I gotta think that him scoring relatively early and easily made the rest of the team think they were in for a pretty easy night. The energy level was great going into that goal, and never recovered.
Could also be...
… that the hot weather, long layoff, lighter practice schedule, etc. caught up with them.
This is an interesting observation, though.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Trufax
The Flyers tend to suck early in the season. They have as far back as I can remember. They were rattling off stats about if they Flyers would have won, they’d have tied an away wins to start season record going back 17 years.
We get a shutout to start the season.
They’re still the Flyers. They still suck at the start. But the suck to start this season has sucked less then usual.
Yay for sucking less then usual!
by BroadStreetBully on Oct 18, 2009 2:49 AM EDT reply actions
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