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That’s a team thats 8-4-1, and knows Randy Jones will improve them. Meanwhile, the Flyers are now completely fucked and have no room to improve the litany of problems they have.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And I don’t want to hear another word about how John Stevens is a bad coach. Holmgren has now, through his actions, admitted he screwed up with these Dmen, and in trying to fix it made the problem even worse.
When they miss the playoffs this season, it’s not Stevens’ fault he was given only 3/4 of a team.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Stevens
Surely this is not his fault. But he has to give his role-players more ice time. I don’t care if it’s Danny Syvret or Riley Cote. The onus is now on Stevens to use his bench more judiciously than he has.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stevens job is to get the best out of the roster he’s given. The best he can do is to keep those guys off the ice. It’s Holmgren’s job to give him players Stevens can use.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also Stevens job to win with the players he’s given.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not.
Its Stevens job to get the best out of the players he’s given. But that doesn’t mean he’s supposed to turn dog food into filet mignon.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so our player’s are the equivalent to dog food?
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the way there playing, I’d say dog food is a compliment
by JpH89 on Oct 29, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They way they are playing now, yes they can be but i think that reflects on the coach not the GM. The team certainly has the talent.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The coach hasn’t been allowed to coach.
John Stevens learned to coach from Ken Hitchcock, a defensive style.
Paul Holmgren directed Stevens to change the system this year. Then he gave Stevens shitty players. How is that Stevens’ fault?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I certainly disagree that it’s not the coach’s job to win with his players. Especially not this coach on this team. Maybe that’s true in Atlanta, on Long Island, or in Tampa, but here, he’s supposed to win with this team.
As for Stevens not being allowed to coach… I don’t see how Stevens learned from Hitchcock at all, since Stevens was only an assistant for Hitchcock for 8 games. Stevens coached in the AHL for 6 years, after serving as Bill Barber’s assistant for a year.
And we’ll forever disagree about Homer giving Stevens shitty players, so I’m not even going to try to argue over that.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its well documented that Hitch had the Flyers and Phantoms running the exact same systems so that players could move between lineups with ease.
And that Stevens worked very much under hitchcock. There offices were all in the same building in voorhees and Hitch would have the AHL staff sitting in on meetings.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then Stevens would be the worst student ever. On a team with Fedor Tyutin, Jan Hejda, Mike Commodore, Kris Russell, Marc Methot, and Christian Backman all playing 56 games or more last year, Hitchcock’s Blue Jackets gave up 2.72 goals per game.
Stevens’ had Braydon Coburn, Andrew Alberts, Kimmo Timonen, Matt Carle, and Randy Jones playing 47 games or more, and his team gave up 2.83 goals per game.
Also, Flyers scored 3.17 goals per game while the Blue Jackets scored 2.68 per game. So, even if he learned from Hitch, he didn’t implement his system.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Holmgren keeps fucking telling Stevens to attack more.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So that’s why he went out and got better defensively this off-season? Pronger, Laperriere, and Betts are a big improvement. And you’re critiques (JvR, Syvret, and OKT) are a combined +4, without a single one in the minus. Even Mika Pyorala is a defensive-minded upgrade.
They two aren’t mutually exclusive. Homer upgraded the team in the off-season, and Stevens still can’t win with them.
Letting Jones go on re-entry waivers is a much different conversation than this, but saying Holmgren gave Stevens players incapable of winning is ridiculous.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team is not better than it was last season.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why in hell do you think Cote needs more ice time, do you want to lose???
by JpH89 on Oct 29, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
I’m not saying that Cote should get ten minutes. But even if he only gets like 2 more minutes a game, that can add up (in a good way) for our more skilled guys. If Cote can be effective for 5 minutes a night I’ll take that. I doubt that we’ll lose just because Cote plays 5 minutes instead of 3.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also of note, LA had 5th waiver priority. God only knows how many of the other 24 teams also put in a claim.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
On the bright side, now we know they won’t sign Shanahan, since they can’t even fucking afford him.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"That’s the risk you take," said Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren of trying to recall Jones.
FUCK YOU. That’s NOT the risk you take, jackass, because you’re going to lose every god damn time. You just threw away an entire season, the season you already threw away the the future for. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my favorite part of the CSNPhilly article was when he commented that “several teams had inquired about Jones”.
If that’s the case, why the hell didn’t he trade him? At least he wouldn’t have given him away for nothing…nice work there by management.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will assume that they were going to have to give him away for nothing via trade (like a 5th round pick or something).
What your post should read is;
If that’s the case, why the hell didn’t he trade him? At least he wouldn’t be losing $1.3m of cap space on him
Which is why this is the last straw in holmgren’s destroying this season.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I agree with you 100%. I’ve agreed with you pre-season when they made the curious decision to keep JVR on the roster. Of course, we were labeled “JVR haters” because look Holmgren just waived Jones and we saved his 3MM in cap space.
Course, it had nothing to do with JVR and everything to do with another stellar job at managing the cap, which basically sunk the season last year.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only in the “when they miss the playoffs” part. If they do miss the playoffs then it’s on Stevens, I’m sorry. The team isn’t perfect but they have more than enough talent to finish somewhere in the top 8 in the East.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that stevens needs to go if they miss the playoffs. I think that he may need to go sometime during the season if they keep playing the way they have.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are going to miss the playoffs. And there is no coach in hockey who can make the playoffs with this roster.
And they have no moves to make now. The best case scenario is that Gagne is out for the year and you can replace him with a good dman, a serviceable forward, and trade for a stud goaltender. In other words, they have to remake the entire roster.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s not overreacting. Its realism. This team is deeply flawed and it’s all Holmgren’s fault.
He’s actually REGRESSED the team today, so that he’s gone from 2/4 to 1/4 on his OWN STATED DUTIES.
He told us in June that he needed to fix the following problems:
1) Team Defense – FAIL
2) Faceoffs – FAIL
3) Cap Space – Pass up until noon today, now: FAIL
4) Veteran Leadership – Pronger, Betts, Laperriere; Very Successful
After the day he signed Laperiere, Paul Holmgren has literally fucked up every single thing he touched.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
You’re making it sound like our top line is Ross, Nodl, and Maroon, and our goaltender is Chris Osgood.
There is plenty of hockey left to be played. Relax.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, i definitely don’t think this team will miss the playoffs. However, what they will do is get hammered again in the first round due to our significant drop off in defense and our always “stellar” (read, abysmal) goaltending
This team is going to look like last year’s Calgary Flames, playing the end of the year with 17 guys to stay under the cap. haha
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe, but there is no need for people to say that the season is over, we’re going to miss the playoffs, etc. I think that a shake up needs to happen and I think that it starts with stevens.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, how does this team make the playoffs? Let’s look at the standings, based on points per game to account for the scheduling ambiguities
Pens – 1.667
Sabres- 1.667
Caps – 1.454
Sens – 1.4
Rangers – 1.307
Devils – 1.2
Thrashers – 1.125
Flyers – 1.1
Bruins – 1.1
Habs – 1
Lightning – 1
Isles/Canes/Panthers/Leafs – below 1ppg
Right now, they’re tied for the last playoff spot, and they just lost a top 4 forward. Guaranteed decline.
Emery has started 9/10 games due to schedule quirks. That won’t be possible as they play 13 games in November, with 3 separate back-to-backs, and Boucher looks awful. Guaranteed decline.
When Pronger gets injured (his history says he will, plus he’s playing 30mins a game)? Guaranteed decline
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and we are ten games into the season. Let the season play out. There are 72 more games to be played.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the fuck does that mean? You’re not saying anything. “Let the season play out”… as opposed to doing what, exactly? The season is going to play out.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let the season play out. You are over-reacting and making assumptions on how the team will finish the season.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you’re under-reacting. Holmgren just fucked this team over and you want to hang out and “see what happens”. I want him fired and bring someone else to break this down and turn it into a team that can win. Because this team can’t.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m being realistic. No point in getting my blood pressure up over something that i have absolutely no control over.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anger management wasn’t the topic. The topic was whether its an accurate assessment that this is not a playoff team. And you’ve yet to point to anything that suggests my assessment is incorrect.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And my response has been that is is too early to say whether they are a playoff team or not. You need to calm down and be realistic. You are making assumptions about the team and i think it is too early to do that. Its Randy Jones. Sure it would have been nice to have him back on the team but he is going else where.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this post shows you clearly don’t grasp the situation. It’s not just about losing Randy Jones. it’s about losing $1.375m in cap space, and prohibiting the Flyers from being able to make any roster adjustments this seaosn.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do grasp that and i will continue to say do not over-react and have a premature heart attack. You have no control over how the team is managed. You have a right to be upset as does every fan but you need to keep things in perspective. We are 10 games into the season anything can happen. Sure maybe we will implode and do horribly this season. We may also turn things around and make the playoffs and advance. No one person knows how the season will turn out. That is why i was saying you are over-reacting.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t give a fuck if you think I’m overreacting. I don’t care what you think of me.
I’m here to talk about hockey. And Paul Holmgren has just destroyed this season. Not only can things happens, things inevitably will happen. All sorts of things will happen this season.
Paul Holmgren has positioned this team is such an inept manner that they are going to miss the playoffs.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Paul Holmgren has just destroyed this season.
That is the kind of stuff i am talking about, you make assumptions like you have been to the future and know everything. Its pointless to talk to you because you only see your side of a conversation.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And what does that have to do with hockey?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s way to small a sample size for me to put any stock in the numbers as they stand now. For example, I do not think the Thrashers and the Sabres can keep it up, but we’ll see.
Regardless, I can agree that this is a very tough spot that Holmgren put the team in and Stevens has been given less than a full NHL calibre roster.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s fine, with Kovalchuk out, I doubt Atlanta can keep pace.
However:
1) Boston will be better when savard and lucic come back
2) Carolina will be better, they did this same early season swoon last season
3) The Flyers will be worse without gagne
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, but I see us finishing 6-8, fighting it out for those last couple of playoff spots.
Talent up and down the roster is still better than a lot of teams ahead of us.
The problem I have though, is that no way, this team sitting in the 6-8th seed is going to be competitive come April.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which teams do you think the Flyers are more talented than?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, here’s my list.
Sabres, while they are off to a hot start, I’m not sold they can keep it up. As well, I’m awaiting the yearly Miller out for a month, which will sink them again.
Sens. They are playing well, but other than their top line, I don’t see anything that impressive about them and also, I’m not sure LeClair is really that outstanding.
Rangers. They are getting outstanding contributions from their rookies and of course, their goaltending is amazing. However, now that Gaborik got his wonky lower body injury, is their point production sustainable?
Devils. Brodeur has looked pretty awful for some stretches and looked good, but he’s the only guy again carrying the team. Lemaire said he wasn’t going to play the trap, but there he is playing the trap, which is always an overcompensation for a shitty team. How long is Martin going to be out? That could be another problem for them.
Thrashers. We already agree on this one.
Bruins are admittedly way better than their record indicates. They are clearly better than us, although Thomas has looked pretty ordinary.
Habs et al. Canes are probably the most legit as you pointed out, but I don’t see any of those other teams improving significantly.
Pens and Caps are clearly superior to us. I’d probably say the Bruins are probably in a little better shape, but the rest of the East has some significant issues.
Like I said, this is now a 6-8th seed team, with zero chance of being an ECF champion.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabres – Agree, but I don’t think they go bad, either. They cool off, but stay ahead of the Flyers. Law of averages says that Miller has to get through one season unscathed at some point, right?
Sens – Jury definitely out on Leclaire, the bottom 9 seem, not impressive, but solid. Definitely shocked by their success. I see them competing in the 7-10 conference slots at the end of the year.
Rangers – Scored like 65 goals all of last season and still finished 7th in the conference. Gaborik only has to produce in half the season to turn that 7th into a 4th this year.
Devils – I thought they were dead last season and they won the division. With lemaire back, I’m certainly not going to doubt their ability to finish in striking distance of the division
Bruins – Yeah, I’ve said before that I think Thomas is incredibly overrated. If ever there was a glaring question of a guy on steroids, its Tim Thomas last season.
Habs – A lot of new players haven’t gelled yet. Will they? Don’t know. But if they do, they’ll be in the 5-7 seed range
I actually think the Pens are pretty close to the Flyers. They are built around basically four players (Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Gonchar), and one of those players is about to miss a few weeks. The other 18 guys on that team range from servicable to mediocre. I like the Flyers front 12 more than I like Pittsburgh’s front 12.
You see 6-8, I see 8-10.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, let’s look at it.
I think we can agree that the Pens, Bruins and Caps win the divisions.
That makes it.
1. Pens
2. Caps
3. Bruins
Okay, let’s not write off NJ like we always do.
4. Devils
Let’s assume the Sabres are legit.
5. Sabres
If we think the Rangers aren’t going to tail off, that puts them in 6th, however, I think it’s a battle between Rangers, Ottawa, Canadiens, and Philly for the 6-8 with the Canes being the dark horse.
The season isn’t done to me, but it definitely took a serious blow and unless this team is a 1-4 seed in the East, I don’t see them going too far.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t put the Canes up there with the Rangers?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. They definitely start the season slow, but Ward has looked really bad. The are really old too.(by comparison). Their special teams has been pretty awful and they are taking a lot of penalties because they look slow.
And Staal is streaky as hell and the team goes as he goes.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t that exactly what we all said about them last season? Cam Ward, before his bad game in St Louis, had a .913% save in his first ten games.
Brind’Amour is still winning 54% of his faceoffs this year…
Clearly, the difference between us is I see Carolina and the Rangers as locks in the middle on playoff pack, you see them in the same tier as the Flyers.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we get to see how good the Canes are Saturday, haha.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boucher has played one game. He was struggling with an injury in the preseason too.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Team Defense
It’s too early to tell. Remember that we have our current players (ostensibly) learning a new systen, as well as our new players who are trying to jell with the team. Team defense has not been great so far, but it can improve.
On faceoffs, cap space, and veteran leadership, I agree completely.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
You’re making it sound like our top line is Ross, Nodl, and Maroon, and our goaltender is Chris Osgood.
There is plenty of hockey left to be played. Relax.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Simon Gagne, this was a non-playoff team so far this season, and they were getting progressively worse.
Now, Gagne will be gone a few months, and you think they’ll suddenly improve?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you fucking kidding me? lets compare forwards on those two teams:
Take these guys out of the equation because they were on both rosters: Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell.
Jim Dowd and Blair Betts is a wash.
Here are the seven other forwards for each team
07-08
Knuble
Lupol
Umberger
Upshall
Kappanen
Thoreson
Cote
09-10
Giroux
Laperriere
Asham
Carcillo
JVR
Pyoralla
Powe
2007-08 had so much more talent and scoring ability its not even close.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are the swear words really necessary? Everyone knows you are upset.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They fucking are absolutely god damn necessary.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This made me laugh out loud. Well played.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and that season, Gagne played 34 games, not 9.
And the Flyers earned the 6 seed, advancing through the playoffs because Marty Biron stole six games for them. All they have in goal this season is Ray Emery.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you and crystal ball full of magic can predict how the future will turn out? is this a mario d gift that us mere peasants dont have? come on dude be real, you dont know how this season is going to turn out. Stop over reacting
by phish'n on Oct 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, let’s never ever talk about the future. Tell Travis and Geoff to stop doing pre-game posts talking about each game.
From this point forward, all sentences must be in the past tense.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats how YOU are making it seem with your drastic predictions. i see your reverting right to your hypocritical state though
by phish'n on Oct 29, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you want to talk about hockey? I would like to talk about hockey.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha ok dude, whatever you say, almighty mariodamus.
by phish'n on Oct 29, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
very interesting turn of events to say the least
by phish'n on Oct 29, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the season you already threw away the the future for.
In fairness, we don’t know how those draft picks, or even Sbisa, will turn out.
The Pronger trade was worth the risk. Re-calling Randy Jones was not.
Hopefully Homer has something brewing, re: a trade.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who do you think he’s going to trade? There are only four guys on the entire roster with a cap hit over $2mil.
The only trade available is if you send one of these guys packing:
Pronger
Timmonen
Richards
Carter
Hartnell
Briere (not possible due to no movement clause)
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
err, six guys on the roster over $2mil, forget to check the Dmen when I first typed.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness, we don’t know how those draft picks, or even Sbisa, will turn out.
We’re going to have a top 15 draft spot this year, the the Flyers don’t have a selection until the 3rd round.
Holmgren has literally destroyed this organization for years to come.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, the players will not renew the CBA, they’ll be another lockout, a bunch of teams will disband, the NHL will die and come back in a year and every team will get a “do-over”
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, that’s the Flyers best chance right now.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and it’s sad that I was joking.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was waiting to see WHO claimed him, not IF he was claimed. This was a “whoops” as we discussed yesterday. At least the Phillies won.
by gnuf on Oct 29, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I told you last night I would lose it when this happened…
I still have six hours till the Phils start tonight, I will be irate for at least another four of them.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This reeks of serious incompetence. Did they seriously expect him to not be claimed? Does Homer know how the cap works? Couldn’t Homer have at least pinged a few GMs who he thought might have had interest to see what the deal was? There goes all that flexibility Homer was able to secure. What a turnaround. Just a month ago, we were talking about how the Flyers should be considered an elite team in the East. Now we’re (rightly) discussing whether or not the roster should be blown up. Wow.
by Ben Feldman on Oct 29, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
very interesting turn of events to say the least
by phish'n on Oct 29, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It can’t be stressed enough that the Kings had the 5th waiver priority (based on standings) so who knows how many other teams also put in a claim, not to mention division opponents putting in the claim just to screw the Flyers with his cap hit.
Re: Homer asking around
The guys who claimed Jones were Lombardi and Hextall, two careers Homer is responsible for. If anyone was going to give him a headsup, its those two.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also note that, as posted above, Homer was quoted today saying: "several teams had inquired about Jones"
So he didn’t even have to ask around to find out someone would likely claim Jones.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree a trade would have made sense, but the full brunt of his cap hit would hamstring other team like it did the Flyers. At HALF the cap hit, you’d be a fool not to take him. I think it would have been a difficult asset to trade for the full salaried cap hit.
by gnuf on Oct 29, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t even mean trade. I mean, see if other teams were interested in claiming him. To just assume a guy like Jones won’t be claimed for half of his cap hit is insane. Sure, keeping him in the AHL all year might not be the optimal solution (less ice time for actual prospects; then again, I thought one of the reasons they traded Ratchuk was to give Jones his own slotted position in the lineup), but this was a team that was built to “win now,” so the AHL should have been a secondary priority to any NHL matters.
by Ben Feldman on Oct 29, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The main issue that is upsetting everyone is that a team strapped to the cap, basically just flushed away another 1.3 million in space for no reason.
by gnuf on Oct 29, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Ben was saying Homer should have found out if Jones would be claimed, before risking $1.3 million in cap space. In there were teams interested, try to trade him, but no matter what, don’t put him on re-entry waivers.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is going to sound crazy, I know.
There is only one feasible explanation that doesn’t demand the immediate termination of Paul Holmgren:
If the Kings and Flyers had a handshake deal that they’d snag him off waivers and will trade him back later in the season.
I don’t think this is likely, BUT, the circumstances are interesting to say the least.
Waiver priority is determined by NHL standings. The Kings are 5th in the NHL right now, which would be 26th waiver priority. HOWEVER, until November 1st, priority is based upon last season’s final standings, meaning the Kings’ waiver priority is still 5th.
Holmgren had to know a team in the NHL would claim Jones. And he clearly has realized what an idiotic decision it was to waive Jones in the first place.
But by setting up Philadelphia West to claim Jones, could the Flyers be taking the steps necessarily to actually get Jones on the roster?
(Note: I searched the CBA and while there’s a prohibition on players lost in the Waiver Draft from rejoining the team that season, I can’t find any such prohibition for players lost on recall waivers.)
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 4:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This sounds like the Davinci code. With Holmgrens track record, I’d say its just an idiotic move. God i hope you’re right though.
by SkookFlyerfan on Oct 29, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re young, aren’t you? Weren’t around back when clarkie was doing stuff like this?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s prohibited. If it wasn’t, I’d have bet someone (ie. Bobby Clarke) would have tried this already a few years ago.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LA does have some D depth though, so maybe, (based on your conspiracy theory), the Flyers are interested in one of LA’s other D men and instead of trading for him straight up which would make the Kings take Randy’s entire cap hit, they had this handshake deal to pay half his salary via waivers and then do a trade for “future considerations”?
That sounds pretty crazy too.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was prohibited, too, but can’t find it there, in the section where it prohibits other trades…
Clarke is still in the Flyers front office, the need just hasn’t arisen to do something like this before. And Clarke has done this before, I’m googling but can’t find it. He paid another NHL team to hide a player for him.
The Flyers HAVE to get Jones back. They can’t afford to trade for a different defenseman because they’d still be paying on Jones, too.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Found It! It’s buried on this page, but its documented:
The Phantom Trade:
Acton was traded by Philadelphia with Pete Peeters to Winnipeg in exchange for future considerations on Sept. 28, 1989.
Five days later, on Oct. 3, 1989, Winnipeg returned Acton and Peeters to Philadelphia in exchange for Toronto’s 1991 fifth-round pick (Juha Ylonen) and an agreement to cancel the future considerations owed from a July 21, 1989, trade in which Winnipeg sent Shawn Cronin to Philadelphia.
The Acton-Peeters deal was made to protect Philadelphia from losing either player in the 1989 NHL Waiver Draft. Neither Acton nor Peeters ever reported to Winnipeg during the five days between the two trades because Winnipeg general manager Mike Smith told them it wasn’t necessary. At the time of the second trade, Winnipeg was given the option to take a 1990 sixth-round pick or 1991 fifth-round pick. The controversial trade prompted an investigation by the NHL, but Flyers general manager Bob Clarke argued that there was no prearranged deal in place.
The trade was allowed to stand because the NHL was unable to prove that the first trade had included any plans for the second trade. However, both Philadelphia and Winnipeg were fined $10,000 for breaking a league rule that prevents teams from loaning players.
The Flyers would certainly pay the fine and a fifth round pick next year to get Jones.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but based on Clarkie doing this before and setting a precedent, don’t you think they would have closed that loophole?
I realize they’d be paying Jones too, but for argument. Say we want X d-man. (let’s say Martinez 875K) LA says ok, but wants Jones, but doesn’t want to pay his cap hit.
The Flyers agree to bring up Jones, LA claims him on waivers, we pay half his salary, LA then trades us X d-man for future considerations.
We make space for the 875K by sending down OKT and Syvret.
I don’t know, I’m grasping at straws here, clearly trying to comprehend why Flyers management would be so stupid.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its a different loophole.
The Flyers can’t send down both OKT and Syvret. They need a sixth dman.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
err, 7th dman. Because the Phantoms are in glens falls now. Dmen will be injured this season.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, they are only playing 5 now. haha.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Parent comes back Sat. no?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Parent and Betts will both be back Saturday, yes.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Oct 29, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats a possibility. I would be surprised if it isn’t against the rules.
by Ben16 on Oct 29, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I started to write a rant on this subject, but can’t comprehend why we did this. Way too pissed off to even think about it. We did a poll on grading Homer’s work earlier this year, shall we do it again and see how much it changes?
by Crosby sucks on Oct 29, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m still searching for a prohibition…
1) Last season Freddy Meyer was waived by the Isles, re-entry waived by Phoenix, and claimed back by the Isles…
2) Then there’s the fact that the fucking jackasses at the NHL don’t seem to care about the rule I did find. This is from 2003, pre-new CBA, and it deals with the rule put in place in response to Clarkie’s Phantom Trade
McAmmond last week was dealt from the Colorado back to the Calgary , the team the Avs acquired him from earlier this season.
It seemed like a routine transaction and was approved by the NHL until someone happened to notice that the transaction violated the Collective Bargaining Agreement. According to the ruling made by Bill Daly, the NHL Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer: "The traded McAmmond to Colorado on October 1, 2002, three days prior to the NHL Waiver Draft, and Article 13.36 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement states explicitly that ‘A player traded by a Club within the four weeks prior to the Waiver Draft may not be reacquired by such Club within the forthcoming season.’ "
What happened in this case is that both sides simply forgot about Article 13.36. Unfortunately so did the NHL, which approved the trade in violation of the rule. It should also be noted that the Player’s Association had no objection to the trade either, knowing full well that it wasn’t an attempt to subvert the waiver-draft rule.
However, when the NHL and the NHLPA tried to get all 28 other teams to waive any objection to the transaction, some balked, citing that having McAmmond in the Calgary lineup could alter the outcome of the regular season and playoff seedings. Seems rather small, but it is a legitimate objection and hence attempts to mediate a resolution went by the boards.
That left all parties between a rock and a hard place. And who gets squeezed? None other than McAmmond himself.
The trade is allowed to stand and McAmmond is allowed to practice daily with his new Calgary teammates. However he can’t play any games, an unfortunate side ruling that serves only to punish McAmmond.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree – This HAD to be a behind the scenes agreement – it just doesn’t make sense to recall Jones the day before we get Parent back from injury
by SanDiegoScraps on Oct 29, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
From Battle of California…
The Kings picked up Randy Jones off re-entry waivers today. Here’s how that decision probably went down…
Ron Hextall: Hey Dean, Randy Jones was just placed on waivers. Think we should pick him up?
Dean Lombardi: What? No, why would we want another defenseman?
Ron Hextall: Well, Dean, hear me out, he’s-
Dean Lombardi: -No, Ron, I just don’t think it’s worth it.
Ron Hextall: Dean, listen to me! He gets injured a lot.
Dean Lombardi: Really? That’s interesting. But I still don’t thi-
Ron Hextall: There’s more. He played for Philadelphia.
Dean Lombardi: My God. In that case, I’d guess we’d better…
*Puts sunglasses on
…Take a flyer on him.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Oct 29, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That’s pretty funny.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have my take on Holmgren’s conversation with Snider on my website.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Oct 29, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
We’ve gone from “Holmgren is an idiot” to “Holmgren possibly has something brewing.” After mismanaging the cap last year, I’d like to think Homer learned his lesson. Part of learning his lesson had to be studying the CBA in detail, or at least having someone study it for him.
The more I think about this, the more I realize he’s got to have SOMETHING cooking. I really hope so, anyway. If that is correct, I hope he does whatever he needs to do in order to get this situation right. If not, and Homer is just a complete stunad, then he should be drawn and quartered.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 29, 2009 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Now, where does Pronger’s contract fit in there? Before or after he studied or hired somebody to study the CBA?
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before — that was during the time where he pretended to know the CBA.
by Ben Feldman on Oct 29, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Such an optimist. haha
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully I’m just an eternal Philadelphia pessimist, because I think Holmgren just effed up. Something is telling me he’s just that dumb to think “Hey, Gagne’s on LTIR, so that frees up cap space, right? So we can bring up Jones, since the only reason he’s not on this team was cap space, right? Cool, bring him up….. Wait, he has to go through waivers again??? SHIT! I hope no one claims him…”
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 5:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t say I believe this is a shady backroom move. I’m just laying the cards on the table.
But I also can’t say I believe the guy who traded Slava Kozlov for Braydon Coburn and Peter Forsberg for Timmonen, Parent, Hartnell, and Upshall just waived Randy Jones.
Did Holmgren suffer a head trauma three months ago? I mean, he turned bricks to gold for two years, and the day after he signed lappy he’s literally fucked up every single thing he touched.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m an optimist about 99 percent of the time, and I think Homer royally screwed up here. Usually I go for the hope that there’s more coming, but for whatever reason, I’m just down about this one. Hopefully I’m wrong.
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by Travis Hughes on Oct 29, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what I don't get at all.
From Tim Panaccio
"He would have helped our team but that’s the risk you take," general manager Paul Holmgren said. "What are you going to do? … Those are the rules. We knew the risks going in." Holmgren said a couple clubs asked about him recently, but no one asked the Flyers to put him on re-entry so he could be claimed.
“What are you going to do?” REALLY??? How about NOT offer to pay half a guy’s salary when it’s obvious other teams want him? How about telling those teams who called you asking for Randy Jones that they’d have to give you something in return? How about noticing that if teams are CALLING YOU about a player, he’s NOT going to clear re-entry waivers? Too much to ask?
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Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I realize things got real busy real fast in here, but back at 1:42 I posted this:
“That’s the risk you take,” said Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren of trying to recall Jones.
FUCK YOU. That’s NOT the risk you take, jackass, because you’re going to lose every god damn time. You just threw away an entire season, the season you already threw away the the future for. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, yeah. My bad. I tried catching up after my final and just skipped over it. Either way, that’s an atrocious quote that leads me to believe he DOES NOT have anything up his sleeve.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Thats actually the quote that made me think he does have something going on. It’s so egregiously ignorant… I just can’t fathom that anyone could be so nonchalant about destroying his team’s season.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I don’t take it to that conclusion (and I don’t think he does either), so I see a guy shrugging off a mistake. We both see it as egregiously ignorant, I just don’t think he sees it that way. And that just goes back to you thinking he can’t be that dumb, and me thinking he is just that embarrassed that he apparently is. (I hope I’m wrong)
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you clarify what you mean by “that conclusion”? I don’t know if you are referring to “egregiously ignorant” or “destroying this team’s season”.
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Destroying this team’s season. Sorry.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 29, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a team that very clearly had to compromise their talent level because of cap management (Vanaanan, Metropolit, no call ups at the end of the year).
Holmgren identified carrying cap space as one of the four most important goals he had to accomplish this season.
And Holmgren just demolished that cap space.
How does this not go the same way as last season?
by MarioD on Oct 29, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference is that he got rid of the cushion, but is still able to afford all of his opening night players. Last year, he brought Carle in, and then couldn’t afford Briere when he came back. This year, they can still afford to bring Gagne back without having to trade a Scotty Upshall or send a Claude Giroux down.
The problem is that he just pissed away $1.3 million, so we can’t take on additional salary, but he can still move pieces around. I agree with you that it’s bad, but I don’t think $1.3 million ruined our season yet. Moves he might make later on this year that are a direct result of this mistake might, but this move alone hasn’t, IMO.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re forgetting Andrew Alberts, though. If the two dmen hadn’t gotten hurt, Holmgren doesn’t trade for Alberts in October. And he’ve had $1.5mil in cap space to keep all those players.
This year, he brought that same $1.5mil cushion out of camp, but just ate that cap space up on Randy Jones not playing.
by MarioD on Oct 30, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does this sound like a man with a plan?
I don’t think so…
“I knew that teams would have an interest in Randy,” Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren said. “We just thought that the teams that would have interest wouldn’t have the [cap] room to claim him.”
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 30, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he really means that (i.e., doesn’t have something else in the works and is purposefully saying this kind of stuff) … wow. I don’t have the words to explain.
by Ben Feldman on Oct 30, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well the phils lost, all these shenanigans happened, sports today just sucked.
Wooohooo (sarcastically)
something good better come of this mess
by phish'n on Oct 30, 2009 12:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jones
Randy Jones was bashed and bashed all offseason now he is gone and according to Mr. Hate MarioD we will not be making the playoffs season is over, fire Homgren the coach trade Richards time to start rebuilding. How the hell does the entire season come down to the 5th or 6th D-Pairing and Randy Jones I just don’t get. Even 1.35 million in wasted cap space is not going to cost this team anything in the end. Calm down this is worst that last year when the everyone complained that losing Upshall cost us the Pens series CALM THE HELL DOWN is it Randy Jones for god’s sake.
by chrislanci on Oct 30, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Bye BSH
I am done, good conversion in the offseason with rosters moves but this board over-reacts and complains about the most minor of things way out of proportion the intelligent hockey conversion ended with the 1st lost. I can’t waste my time arguing with this insanity. Was this a good move NO is it the end of the world the season is over before Halloween NO, how the hell is this team a non-playoff team 5-4-1 playing really good teams. Guess what the PENS were in 11th place in March and won the cup so calm down.
by chrislanci on Oct 30, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem
Randy Jones was bashed and bashed all offseason now he is gone
“Dude, the defenseman is not the issue here!” Seriously, no one really cares that Jones is gone. Everyone cares that we have to spend 1.35 million dollars on nobody.
How the hell does the entire season come down to the 5th or 6th D-Pairing and Randy Jones I just don’t get.
Again, the issue is money. Mario’s point is that we will not be able to improve the 3rd defensive pairing – or any other issues we have – because we now lack the money to do so.
That being said, I read that even after Gagne comes back, we will have around $800,000 in cap space – not tons but enough to sign someone for the league minimum if need be.
Also, I read that Stevens is reuniting the Timonen-Parent pairing. If he does that and pairs Coburn with Syvret or Tollefsen, the third pairing could see more ice time and (hopefully) be more effective. It remains to be seen.
Even 1.35 million in wasted cap space is not going to cost this team anything in the end.
That is a bold statement, I’m afraid. No team in the league can afford to lose money like that.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guess what the PENS were in 11th place in March and won the cup so calm down.
This is exactly why I was saying that there is plenty of hockey left to be played.
For what it’s worth, I think the Pens had reached the nadir of their season in February, not March. Still, the team largely remained the same (aside from acquiring Kunitz and Guerin) and turned things around. If they can do so in less than two months, we can do so in six.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Oct 30, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pens seemed to get going and play with intensity when they replaced their coach.
by Ben16 on Oct 30, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which was a mere coincidence. The Pens got better last year when Gonchar returned and got in shape.
by MarioD on Oct 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mere Coincidence? Sure gonchar really helped them but they finished 18-3-3 after hiring bylsma. Some of that can be attributed to the coaching change. I don’t think one player would spark a team on an 18-3-3 run.
by Ben16 on Oct 30, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its far more likely than thinking a coach did.
by MarioD on Oct 30, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, during that time, the Pens made a number of deadline deals. They changed about 1/4 of that roster between trades and guys returning to full strength from injury (Crosby, Gonchar, Guerin, Kunitz, Adams)
by MarioD on Oct 30, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they did make moves that paid off nicely. Its the coaches job to take the players that he is given and win with them. Bylsma was able to take them and put them together and win. It seemed like the players had stopped listening to Therrien and so rightfully or not, he was fired. When Bylsma came in the players started to listen and play with some passion. That’s why i think some of the turnaround can be attributed to the coaching change.
by Ben16 on Oct 30, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except, had you given Bylsma
Gonchar, Guerin, Kunitz, Adams, healthy Crosby
instead of
Myroslav Satan, Mike Zigomanis, Philippe Boucher and Chris Menard (also, Ryan Whitney only played 27 games before being traded)
Bylsma might’ve coaxed a similar record out of that team.
by MarioD on Oct 30, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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