Another game, Another shutout: Flyers lose 2-0
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2009 10:31 PM EST
in 09-10 Game Recaps
124 comments
[TSN Recap] - [Boxscore] - [Ottawa Reaction]
Six games, three shutouts. Watch America's Most Wanted this weekend and maybe we can find out who kidnapped the Philadelphia Flyers offense. With the exception of one game against the New York Islanders, Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Scott Hartnell, Claude Giroux, James van Riemsdyk, and Danny Briere have been invisible over the last month.
I don't know what to think and I don't have answers, but this team just can't score. They have absolutely zero confidence. Maybe a trade is necessary to shake up the offense. Maybe they just need Simon Gagne, Blair Betts, and Darroll Powe back in the lineup. Maybe we overrated them and they're just bad. I simply don't know. With the amount of games coming up in the next few weeks -- really, up until the Olympic break -- they can't afford to continually give up points like this. It's frustrating, not to mention depressing.
They outworked the Senators tonight. They had more chances and they had an almost full length five-on-three power play. Their goalie performed like the starter he was in 2000. And yet, empty net goals not withstanding, they still lost a 1-0 defensive struggle.
Credit is due to the Senators. Brian Elliott played quite well. They did a great job of clogging the middle of the ice with bodies, not allowing the Flyers to do much on the power play. Still, Ottawa is not really a good hockey team. They've played over their heads thus far this season. They're relying on a goaltender right now who has only played 47 NHL games.
You've gotta win these games. The Flyers keep on proving that they're incapable of that.
After the jump, a few more notes on this one, lowlights, questions with answers, and the comment of the night.
Some assorted thoughts...
- If I were Brian Boucher, I'd be furious. He's playing excellent hockey in the absence of Ray Emery, but he can't get a win because his team can't put the puck in the other net. At the same time, it's a reassuring sign that things aren't totally lost with Emery down. If the offense can get a damn goal.
- The orange and black may have scored a goal at one point during this one, but the score sheet wont say that. The puck was lodged under Elliott's pads, and he seemed to be in the net with it. He was pushed by Scott Hartnell, though, so the officials, despite heading over to the table, didn't even send the play to Toronto for review.
- The power play showed excellent puck movement, but unlike Tuesday against the Isles, the passing lanes across the middle of the ice didn't exist tonight. That forces the shots to come from the outside, and Elliott had an answer every time the Flyers challenged him down below the faceoff circles. When shots came from the point, especially via the stick of Chris Pronger, they rarely even made it through to Elliott.
- Matt Carkner delivered a cheap shot to Mike Richards late in the third period, giving the Flyers some hope with a PP. On that ensuing PP, it was the same story.
- Braydon Coburn's giveaway to Jesse Winchester leading up to the game-sealing empty net goal was just terrible.
- The Flyers took several penalties tonight, but Peter Laviolette said after the game that they weren't the same kind of undisciplined penalties that he punished the team for during Wednesday's practice.
- On the bright side, the penalty kill did a good job killing off Ottawa's PP chances.
- This was, by far, the most boring hockey game in quite some time. Sens fans and Flyers fans agree.
- Oddly, the CSN broadcast was the only one of this game tonight. It was simulcast on TSN 2 in Canada, as well as around the country on various CSN affiliates.
- On that same note, Jim Jackson reportedly lost his glasses prior to the game (I didn't know he wore glasses?) and was forced to wear prescription sunglasses while calling the game. Jim Jackson wears his sunglasses at night.
Questions With Answers
- Can the Flyers keep themselves out of the penalty box for prolonged stretches tonight? No, but it didn't hurt them like it did on Tuesday.
- Will the power play sustain the success they had on Tuesday night? They held the puck well, but anything more than that is apparently too much to ask for.
- Does the top line continue its sexy-looking play? Not even a little bit.
- Can Boucher keep up his hot play? Definitely. Solid games are becoming the norm for Boosh.
- How successful are the Flyers in keeping the Sens big guns off the score sheet? Fisher had an assist, but Alfreddson, Spezza, Michalek, and Cheechoo were all held off.
- Does Jarkko Ruutu kill a guy? No, but he did receive a cross-checking minor in the second.
Comment Of The Night
At least he’s scoring somewhere
>> JpH89, on Carter getting some tail at the club
Lowlights
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Maybe I take things too personally, but I am really starting to feel cheated by this team. That’s why I was upset at Snider in the game thread.
I don’t doubt his desire, his passion, or his love for the team. I really don’t. But the last 21 + seasons have really been shitty compared to the first 20. We’ve had a lot to cheer for, sure. But I’m sick of riding past successes.
Much like they did in 1997, they told us THIS WAS THE YEAR we really push for the Cup. And while we still have more games to play than not, it sure as hell doesn’t look like we’re going to push for anything aside from a record slightly above .500.
I’m probably unnecessarily angry right now, but whatever. I’ve given this team my heart and soul since I was 5 years old. I’m 33 now. And it seems like every team has found a way to get something done except for the Flyers. I know I’m exaggerating because I’m pissed off.
They took risks this summer, for which I applauded them. You can’t win unless you take risks. But other weaknesses in their team have begun to surface and they need to be corrected.
As of now, there is still time to right the ship, but it is running out quickly. This is not like the 1991-92 season, when they became the “New Look” Flyers and brought in a whole bunch of new people. Then, we had to expect a slow start.
No; we got one of the best defensemen in the game, one of the most hard-working wingers in the game and one of the most competitive goalies in the game. We lost a talented but lazy winger, a steady front-of-the-net presence whose time is beginning to fade, and two backup goalies.
And for some reason, we are a team with little confidence who can’t score. We can’t attribute all of the offensive struggles to the loss of Knuble and Lupul. We’re just not getting anything done.
I will give the Flyers organization all of the credit in the world for trying to do the right thing year in and year out. But when we fall short of the Stanley Cup year in and year out, that should tell you that something is not working.
This is why I pointed the finger at Snider. I am not blaming him, but I think that both the Flyers and the Sixers would benefit extremely well from a fresh perspective coming from the top down. The Phillies and Eagles certainly did.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Dec 10, 2009 10:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Flyers shutout for the third time in six games. First time they’ve been blanked 3 times in 6 games or less since December, 1968. Yikes!
What do you expect Coburn to do there, exactly? He batted the puck out of the air from chest height. When it came down to the ground it bounced, as per the laws of physics.
By the time he corralled it, there was a man on him.
He ignored the bad play to float it across center ice to the other dman. If he went back towards his zone, the man on him had more speed and likely would’ve taken it away.
He made the best play of the three available to him, throwing it away from his net and towards four other Flyers.
By terrible, I meant deflating. Depressing. Other words that show my psychological inferiority following it.
Not that the rest of the game lacked those qualities anyway.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough.
And, yeah, I didn’t even mention that whatever your opinion of that play/decision, the Flyers it was probably the 43rd most responsible cause of the Flyers losing that game.
Precisely. Not even worth debating, really. With the way that power play was going, I kinda assumed the game was over once the puck came out of the zone there, actually. I think the PP ended right around then too, so that wouldn’t have even mattered.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Ugly game. Both teams were good at blocking shots and keeping the other team’s scoring chances to a minimum (aside from the breakaways), but neither team’s forwards really did much with the puck tonight. I don’t feel the Sens deserved to win, but then again, the Flyers didn’t really either. Just bad hockey, haha.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
For those reasons, I’m not excited about playing you guys two more times. The last game against the Sens was boring too.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
What is it about these teams? The Sens usually aren’t this boring! They are a forecheckin’, hittin’ team that is usually full of excitement. The Flyers bring out the worst in them, though.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
It is going to take some time to get this thing right!
You can’t blame any of this on Jeff Carter. He can’t be expected to score unless the Flyers have at least a 2 goal lead, minimum. But seriously, if anyone thought this was going to get better anytime soon by installing a new system without practice time they were kidding themselves. This team is in disarray left by the complacency of the last regime and it is going to take some time to get out of it. And if we weren’t in this funk this game was one of those games that just didn’t go right from the jump. A minute and a half of 5 on 3 with decent pressure and no goal. We have officially entered into desecrated ancient indian burial ground type of bad luck. Shake it off and move on to New Jersey.
I’m hoping that a week against stiff opponents and divisional rivals (Jersey, home and home with Pittsburgh, and the Rangers all in one week) will maybe give them some kind of mental boost, but I think I’m done being optimistic. Not until they prove to me otherwise, at least.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
That Rangers game should be interesting. Which team will suck more!? The suspense is already killing me.
by Ben Feldman on Dec 11, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
You mean...
… cirrhosis of the liver.
You don’t want that.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I’m sorry did I miss the panic about the way this team was playing up to the actual change? Where was the “bag practice” or whatever the heck you call it three weeks ago. This team is not playing very well in either side of the rink and that is not because these guys that have played this sport since they 4 years old just forgot. This team has played as if the Conference finals were a gimme since they actually played in that series. And having everyones best buddy as the coach obviously didn’t help matters seeing as what ever the game plan was didn’t get past the dry erase board. If that is going to change it is going to take more than week with no real practice time. If you don’t agree just say so and give me where you think things are right now?
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Stevens held bag skates quite a bit, for what it’s worth. A number of times this season and I think at some point(s) last season, too…
by Ben Feldman on Dec 11, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Which points even more to the idea that nothing was getting through to the team.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
Which is 100% different than what you posted: That Stevens was “complacent”.
Also, four games in, Laviolette REALLY seems to be getting through…
No I said the complacency he bred and the team has exhibited for some time now. I totally agree with you Mario they just seem to be a little more organized. And they are turning the sticks into saw dust right now. Scoring can be as much luck as anything.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Actually you said:
the complacency of the last regime
The prepositional phrase is possessive of the noun in that sentence.
Grammar aside you don’t believe this team was complacent?
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t think regimes really change until a GM steps down/is fired, FWIW. A coach can only work with what he is given by the GM and every GM operates under their own philosophy. I think Homer’s made some good moves, but also some pretty questionable/bad ones and has done a terrible job of managing the cap which has hamstrung the club even more. .
I believe Assistant GM Barry Hanrahan is the team’s capologist, so I’m not sure if directing that blame on Holmgren is necessarily correct. Still, though, someone in that office is at fault.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
The men in this locker room have the talent and the experience to get whatever results they decide to work for and with the right buttons being pushed and a solid plan, cap hell or not, this team can win if they just refuse to lose.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
We are talking hockey aren’t we? Now that was a joke.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
That’s where I question them.
They have a ton of talent and I trust Laviolette. I just don’t know if they know what buttons to press, or if they even have that same assurance that they have the talent. There’s a clear lack of confidence that’s on display right now, and only winning is going to bring them out of it. And maybe if they can win a few against these divisional opponents coming up, they can gain some confidence. But of course they aren’t proving that they can beat anybody right now, let alone NJ and Pittsburgh and the Caps.
Obviously a lot of if’s here. I’m not optimistic, but the next week could change that.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Did you read what Roenick said where he thinks there’s a problem in the locker room? I don’t know how much stock I put into it, but it does make you wonder: is there someone in that locker room that is infecting the rest of the club in some negative way? We all speculate, and maybe that’s what Roenick is doing here, but he’s been around a long time and played for a lot of clubs, so maybe he has some insight.
Yea it is that moosh Carcillo. Ever since that dude got here they have had some really bad Chi. They need to feng shui the locker room and get some good energy flowin’ in there.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
I like you.
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Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Dec 11, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
I trust Roenick. He’s a people person. I betcha he’s right. And I betcha it’s Carcillo. Team’s been fucked ever since he got here. I like the guy and have defended him, but hell, he’s the only constant in this equation. But I do have a sneaking suspicion it may actually be Nodl…heheh…
by Ben Feldman on Dec 11, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I tend to trust Roenick as well, even though I want to. It very well may be Carcillo, but I don’t think that’s what JR believes. While he said that Carcillo deserved the suspension, he still had high praise for the guy in that interview.
But the way Carcillo’s teammates jumped down his throat after the game on Saturday night, I can believe he’s not so popular in there.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
If it’s not him, I can’t for the life of me figure out who it would be (if there is a someone, of course). Unless Scott Hartnell really is Sideshow Bob. That would explain a lot, actually…
by Ben Feldman on Dec 11, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
I love sideshow Bob. I think he is a guy that can keep a team loose and he plays a better brand of crazy hockey. If he didn’t hurt you you just have to turn around and laugh at the guy. Carcillo looks like manson and doesn’t know the limits of good and stupid.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I tend to think the issues have been festering for a while. For some reason, I keep coming back to Carter.
i also think it’s carter. carter is usually the laziest person on the ice with the least concentration. i used to think hartnell was the goof but he knows what is expected of him and usually is one of the harder working flyers on the ice. i think the organization knows that carter is a weak link, perhaps the reason why he has been subject of 80% of trade rumors for the past 2 or 3 seasons? i think holmgren has been trying to get him off this team.
Breaks my heart to say it but I think it might be Richards. And if so, considering that he is here for the next 27 years, we’re fucked!
That is also where Laviolette could put his stamp on this team quickly and forcefully. Waiving that guy as an example says I just don’t talk about disciplined play I mean it. Perfect opportunity that presented itself. If they let Carcillo play again it is like accepting undisciplined play.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
For the millionth time, COACHES CAN’T WAIVE PLAYERS.
Ignoring the fact that it would be a terrible hockey move for the team and the franchise…
Not him personally, but he can make it subtilely obvious that it was his idea and Holmgren did the deed. And why would it be that horrible of a move to remove a cancer?
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that worked really well when Stevens tried it with Danny Syvret.
First off, Carcillo is not a cancer.
But given this silly hypothetical, from a team perspective: Carcillo is one of the few guys who actually exhibits energy on every shift. He’s been one of the better players on this team all year, and he’s been extremely consistent.
From a franchise perspective he’s a cheap contract and an RFA at the end of the year.
Who the heck is Danny Syvret? Cancer might be strong but he is not an efficient energy player. He plays with energy but it is not controlled energy. Too many penalties and that starts to bug people after awhile. And even the game before the Washington game where he was doing that five minute curse fest on the bench at I forget who, he looked like an idiot. Guys don’t take to that kind of stuff.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
Not a joke, that was sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!!
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
You talking about the game against Buffalo before Thanksgiving where he freaked out after his second fight with Paul Gaustad?
I think the fact that Carcillo, as a third/fourth line guy, is getting this much (negative) attention is saying something…
Idk if I would go as far as saying he is a cancer, but I am done giving him a chance. I have defended him, for the most part, since he got here but he is just too much trouble; a distraction maybe?
The Flyers didn’t have any problems before Carcillo was acquired? He arrived against Calgary on March 5th.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/schedule?team=phi&year=2009
Long after they started the season 0-3-3. Not to mention the fact that that trade was executed because Holmgren was tired of the Old City crew’s (Upshall included) lackadaisical effort.
That is what I am hoping also. Because to think the other side would mean giving up on the season. This schedule is just brutal it is either gonna make em’ or break em’. I do have to say even since the Montreal game the team is playing a little less helter skelter and somewhat more soundly on defense. If they can build their game from the defense out, that could be very positive.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that they are showing signs of improvement, but now is not the time for moral victories.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
What signs of improvement have you seen? I assume you’re not comparing to the Washington game, right?
No the washington game that was just a anomaly, especially after Carcillo went off the reservation. I mean even in the Montreal game they lost but they kept Montreal at least in front of them most of the night. For too long this team has been chasing teams defensively all over the rink. It is small but different.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
They didn’t play more controlled defense while holding a team to 13 shots. They made maybe 6 mistakes and three were goals. You didn’t think they kept Montreal in front of them defensively? They were guilty of retreating the offensive zone a little quickly but at least it wasn’t the usual three forwards chasing the play out through the neutral zone.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
No, no, the Washington game was terrible.
Starting in Montreal though, they started to establish the forecheck a little better, and despite the shot totals, I thought they applied a decent amount of pressure. Not enough to win, and especially considering they didn’t get a lot of quality shots, but it was improvement. It got better against the Isles, obviously, but they reverted tonight.
I’m starting to think that a lot of the offensive success depends on the power play. Obviously, scoring on the power play helps, but I think scoring on the PP gives them a lot of confidence, and that carries over to the 5-on-5 game. When they don’t score on the PP, they lose confidence and they feel like they’re snake-bitten.
I know you think that the team is poorly constructed, but I’m of the thinking that the problems surrounding the team are mostly just mental.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
Which brings me to the question of who is running the power play? Is it Berube? Why did he get to stay? Because he accumulated a lot of penalty minutes for the team? I can’t say he doesn’t know what he is doing but all the coaching talent in the world why this guy?
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
I believe it is Berube, although he and Mullen may work together on it. I’m not totally sure.
The PP, while quiet lately, has been very successful over his tenure here. I can understand keeping him.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
If you can, rewatch that 5-3.
I deleted it mistakenly from my DVR, so I can’t re-examine this, because it’s something I realized later watching that last power play.
But on the 5-3, they all stood on practically the same spot, passed the puck around the perimeter, and every shot they took was telegraphed by a mile.
They have fallen into this idea that puck movement is what makes the power play work. They talk about it post game all the time. That is 100% wrong.
They need PLAYER movement. Just think about this for a second: You’ve got two guys on the blue line, two guys at the half board, and a guy in the slot. No matter where the puck goes, the defenders need only turn their head to stay in position.
They need to move. The dude on the half-board needs to take the puck behind the net. This would force a dman to collapse on him and a forward to collapse down, a point man to sneak in, and now you’re cooking. It also forces the D to properly execute those switches.
I’m tired of four guys standing around feeding Pronger to take a shot from 25 feet away with three bodies between him and the goaltender.
They need to skate the puck around the zone.
I can’t go back and watch it — I really need to invest in a DVR — but that does sound about right. The guys down low move around a little bit, but not nearly enough, and then they just throw the puck back to the point for the big blast, which never gets through to the net.
If you want to re-record it, the replay is starting right now on CSN right now, and that 5-on-3 is pretty early in the game, so…
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
Wow. Wow wow wow.
Just reaired. Now that I had an idea of what they were doing wrong… holy crap it was worse than I thought it could possibly be.
Not a single player possessed the puck and took more than two strides before shooting or passing.
Even worse: Every guy moved slightly with the puck, and as soon as they passed it, would immediately skate back to where they were before they got the puck.
I don’t even know how to explain it. It was just atrocious. On first viewing, I thought they had done a good job of being patient. Now I see that they were like fucking robots.
Yep, they let Ottawa get way too comfortable with that triangle in front. The only reason they were getting secondary chances after the blocked shots/rebounds was because they had more personnel on the ice.
You’re right — you’ve gotta do something to disrupt the PK formation. They did nothing of the sort on that 5-on-3. In addition to dropping behind the net, as you said, there are things you can do at the point, especially with a two-man edge.
Say Carle drops down a little bit along the boards, that guy on that side has to commit a little more to him. Then, that opens up more of a shooting lane for Pronger to get that blast away, instead of having two defenders right there ready and able to block the shot. Anything that can draw open that triangle and keep Ottawa from clogging up the middle of the ice.
But yeah, it doesn’t matter how they do it. The bottom line is they need to take the PKers out of their comfort zone, out of their formation.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2009 2:08 AM EST up reply actions
GIVE THE MAN A PRIZE!
No joking and no kidding here. You are 100%correct on this. Once they get set up they do NOTHING. And despite having guys like Briere and Giroux, who are shifty, nobody makes that little move to get into scoring position. With or without the puck they are just stuck.
As for telegraphing, I watch games and call the plays. My family looks at me like I’m crazy fo doing it. But if I can predict the moves so can the pros.
by Mike B on D on Dec 12, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with all of that.
But they don’t even have to try to get into scoring position. Just skating around the perimeter would be enough to get the defense moving. Like i said, take the puck behind the net and there’s all kinds of havoc created because the defense (goaltender and skaters) suddenly can’t watch the puck and the four players without the puck.
Hey Hanrahan!
You all know the rest of the quote…
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Dec 11, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I definitely shouted that at Washington Nationals reliever, Joel Hanrahan before. It was glorious.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks All!
I needed to vent a little. GO FLYERS!!!!!!!!!!
An essay of thoughts
A large essay of thoughts
I have one name for you: Jason Smith, and two questions.
Is mike richards ready to be captain yet? Is the let’s just have fun team attitude the real problem here? I mean yeh richards leads outwardly, but I’m not so sure about his example. I mean the whole team certainly has a reputation for frequenting Old City and using their status to party it up, which is fine, except I feel like when this team hits a 3-4 game losing streak, they’re looking at Mike who come friday night is still getting himself ready for a night on the town like nothing’s wrong. Which again might be fine, if he wasnt the captain.
I just wonder about the combination of the youth of the team and the lack of leadership of the veterans – let’s face it Hartnell’s a freewheelin kinda guy and you cant take him seriously, briere is too much of pussy to be respected, pronger is just a silent leader, gagne is a ghost, no one’s turning to asham as they shouldnt, so whose left amongst the vets? – Maybe Timmonen. That’s the only guy I can think of that could step up and be a captain until richards gets himself married off and has nothing to do but avoid the wife by playing hockey.
Honestly think this team is missing Jason Smith. I mean I feel like when the team hit the skids or got into a bit of trouble, Smith was taking leadership, giving guys shit and making people step up.
Look at how well the flyers played and probably overachieved that year. Let’s face it they did overachieve. Carter and Richards were just beginning to emerge. Lupes, Umberger, Upshall all came out of nowhere and were stepping up. Our defense was Timmonen, Jason Smith and a very young Coburn, and Randy fucking Jones, that’s it. And yet somehow this team was in first in the division at the all-star break, and yeh then they hit a long losing streak, but then what happened? They finished strong at the 6th spot, raped the Capitals, raped a better Canadiens team that was on fire, before their lack of and underdeveloped talent caught up with them against the Pens. How did they do that? As stated before most of the vets on this team arent much in the way of both vocal and example leaders, and these are the same vets that were on the ‘07 team, so what was the difference in ’07? Jason Smith, who’s no longer with the team. It had to be him leading, getting everyone to elevate their game. I refuse to believe the whole problem was Stevens, it’s in that locker room, amongst the players themselves, no one’s really accountable.
I love Richards, but I feel like the team has this view of him that he’s “just one of the guys”, a guy cant lead if he’s viewed that way, and as stated before, when they do look to his example, there he is after a 5 game losing streak, still hitting the town on a friday night, while a Jason Smith would have been calling a team practice and getting in people’s faces if they complained about it.
This flyers team is way better than 07, should be – Carter and Richards have more experience, JVR is killing it, our defense is massively improved we got Pronger and Carle now, Parent and Coburn have more experiece, we have the Car-Betts-Lap line which has been working. But…
First problem is Giroux is being wasted, why he isnt playing with Carter every night is a fucking mystery to me. Probably because we’re paying Hartnell so fucking much the organization doesnt want to put him on the fourth line where he belongs. Which brings us to the next point – the absence of the veterans that we’re playing well in ‘07. Gagne was still ok 2 years ago, he’s fucking done now, as stated Hartnell just isn’t turning out to be as good as I thought he would be, and Briere’s sex change operation is next week.
You know what I would love. A Briere and Hartnell for Jason Smith trade, straight up. Bring him back. On paper, way lopsided for the Senators. But it clears cap space, and gets a leader back on this team, that can transition back in seamlessly. Why would the Sens do this? A lot of contract money there but they’re in the race, have a chance to stay in it. Briere is a skill guy and Hartnell would add some grit to a team that for the most part is always made up of pussy skill players. Then on Defense you got Pronger, Carle, Timmone, Coburn, Parent, Smith. Get Giroux up with Carter. Jason Smith wouldnt even have to resume officially the captaincy, he would just be the de facto leader. An almost advisor to Richards of sorts. And then you have money to play with as well.
The problem with the pre-lockout flyers was they were just too old and would just run out of gas by the time they hit deep in the playoffs. But you know guys like Primeau, Recchi, Leclair, Roenick all they wanted to do was be on the ice, they didnt give a shit about anything else in life. That’s what this team is missing, that dedication.
Flyers vs. Penguins both at same point in 2007, and now where are both teams.
Sure Crosby and Malkin are just plain better, but the vets on their team I feel like are better leaders and I feel like Malkin and Staahl are just more committed. It also helps that the team plays in fucking Shitsburgh, where I’m sure the nightlife scene for the young guys on that team is about as fun as a retirement community so the distractions arent as much. Oh and they have Fleury, but still.
Holmgren is proven to be a failure as a GM. The Flyers had a potent offense in place and have since really messed it up do to poor decisions.
1) Making Richards captain and immediately trading Jason Smith – i already covered this.
2) Keeping Hartnell and Briere instead of Lupul and Upshall – essentially what we did here was throw away two diamons in the rough who we stumbled upon in favor of keeping declining veterans.
Remember why we traded Lupul and Upshall? To get salary cap room to improve defensively. The sacrifice offensive players for defense was the right move. But it was the wrong players. Remember what the Flyers said was supposed to happen was that we wouldnt miss the offense of Lupul and Upshall because a healthy Briere and an increased role for Giroux would fill the void. Well how’s that working out. We never should have trusted Briere to be healthy and even when he is he still doesnt produce anywhere near what he should be. And since the team is paying Hartnell and Briere too much to stick either on a 4th line, we have no room for Giroux, so he’s being wasted. Giroux should be playing with Carter every game, no excuses.
Remember how fast Upshall was? Speed is deadly in the new NHL. Look I like the Carcillo-Lapierre-Betts line, BUT if anything it should have been Hartnell traded, not Upshall. Upshall freaking cried when he got traded, I cant see Hartnell having that same level of commitment and care to the team. I just dont.
We should have seen this coming, starting last season – you could see Hartnell just wasnt playing that well and Briere was never consistent in his play, none of this is new. So they’re still not really producing and on top of that we no longer have Upshall or Lupul. Upshall would have been a great 3rd line guy, of which this team currently has no 3rd line guys. Carcillo-Lapierre-Betts are a hell of 4th line, but not a 3rd line, that 3rd line might have worked in the old nhl, but not the new nhl. Just look at the Penguins 3rd line, we have nothing close to that.
Hartnell and Briere should be gone and it should have been Upshall and Lupul that stayed to create cap space. We are getting hardly anything out of Briere or Hartnell. And the lines as presently constructed with Hartnell and Briere are not working.
What we need to do is cut the “fat” out. Here’s who you keep:
The defense is fine: Pronger, Carle, Timmonen, Coburn, Parent
The offense: the Carcillo-Betts-Lapierre line, Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, Pyorala… The Carcillo-Betts-Lapierre line is your 4th line. You start with Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, and Pyorala and build your top 3 lines around that.
Everyone else gone. They dont bring anything to the table, some of those guys like Asham are okay, but really what are they adding? We stumbled onto some good guys – Umberger, Lupul, Upshall and gave them all up in favor of Gagne, Hartnell, and Briere… how’s that working out?
Holmgren has just flat out blown it. And god help us if they decided Giroux or JVR is trade bait, and we still keep Briere and Hartnell, if that happens, im done with this team unitl Holmgren is gone.
Once again we stuck with declining veterans instead of trusting a couple young guys with potential to develop further, this organizations fatal flaw continues.
I feel like if Holmgren was the phillies GM, we would have traded Jason Werth before he really came on in ‘08 and we’d still have Geoff Jenkins in right field.
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by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 8:41 AM EST reply actions
you obviously care
the problem with the flyers is inept management…
trading upshall for carcillo… letting knuble go… two number ones, sbisa and lupol for pronger… are you kidding me??? don’t get me wrong… prongers got some gas in the tank but he was way too expensive… and he robbed the team of the future.
signing briere at a bizillion a year and giving away umberger as a result…
gagne was a great player but the guy is held together with bubble gum and hope.. thinking he can go a year without 30 games on IR…idiocy… on a similar note look at betts… the guy’s a wreck…
carter and richards are very nice players but simply are not dominant first line talent… if anything they are both over acheivers..
giroux and jvr are also talented but need help… hartnell is stricly a third liner… most of the energy he brings is wasted… and asham… wouldn’t umberger have been better in the same role.???
timmonen is also very good but he needs a real banger to keep him company…not braydon coburn… who will never be a great… pretty good but not great…. carle??? i can’t figure him out… saw him play in LA not long ago and he looked passable at best…
add it all up and you get back to holmgren… sorry but he’s the problem…. a poor trader… just good enough to be dangerous…
this team needs a serious front office house cleaning… time to let go of the past… give em all a nice farewell dinner and bye bye…
by Elmo the faithful fan on Dec 11, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
@Ben
regardless of those #1 and #2 overall picks, the Flyers had found their offense, they just gave it up in favor of keeping Briere, Hartnell, and Gagne, all of whom are in rapid decline. That’s all on Holmgren.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 8:55 AM EST reply actions
@Ben
and my bad on Jason Smith. You want to throw that out. fine.
The fact remains Hartnell and Briere are producing nothing and are totally inconsistent.. Lupes and Upshall should have stayed. JVR is doing the best he can at his age and Giroux is being wasted due to Hartnell and Briere taking up line space in spots where Giroux should be. All we have in terms of scoring is Richards and Carter, that’s it.
When you trade away some of your offense – Lupul, Upshall, and at the same point get continually less out of the guys you’re expecting to get more out of – Hartnell, Briere, and Giroux (not his fault being misused), the offense is going to begin to struggle, the effects are being seen now.
’07 guys who were scoring:
Richards
Carter
Umberger
Upshall
Hartnell
Briere
Lupul
Gagne
now: 3 of their guys arent here, and the other 3 have totally declined. All thats left is Richards and Carter We’ved added JVR, who is doing his best at this early in his career and we’re misusing Giroux. . The lack of offense makes total sense.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions
I think people in this city overrate Upshall. In his two and three quarters seasons here, he scored 6, 14 and 7 goals respectively. Lupul is way more streaky and inconsistent than any of the other forwards that you mentioned. And I think Briere’s been pretty consistent, if a little overaggressive, this season. I completely agree about Giroux though — too often he’s centering a third line of Carcillo and Asham. And I agree that JVR should be given some additional time to come out of his little slump.
I agree with Ben (below). Lupul is a mojo killer. He has talent and refuses to show up night after night as if he couldn’t care less. That is why he is on his fourth team in five years, it isn’t a coincidence. He was the lead party boy not Upshall. However, Upshall wasn’t overrated he was one of the more consistent third line guys. Also they lost some character when Metroplolit left as well. Hartnell should be a third liner, not that he isn’t good but he can be a better third liner than some others. A checking third line of Upshall, Metropolit and Hartnall would be looking real good right now. But this team needs wingers and they way over paid Hartnell so he falls into the top lines and isn’t a consistent scorer. This is also why trading Carter, Coburn and Emery to the Ducks for Giguere and Ryan, it would get a winger we need and free up the center position for Briere, Giroux, Richards and Betts (when he comes back). I like Cater but he is a little soft and doesn’t work as hard as he should. My Opinion!
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I am sure if someone wanted Briere’s 6 million for the next 35 years they could would him but it isn’t gonna happen. Same kind of went for Gagne a couple years ago with his contract at the time but now you have to ride him out.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting that the point was brought up about discontent in the locker room. I was hanging out with a friend this weekend from Philly and he said that he heard that Carter and Richards can’t stand each other. I just shrugged it off, but this discussion makes me wonder.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Dec 11, 2009 9:18 AM EST reply actions
I have always thought there was an unhealthy relationship between those two. Who is the better player to come from that draft? Who is more important to the team? Richards is looked at as Clarke reincarnate and Carter is just Carter. These have to be underlying resentment issues. I think Carter is more expendable.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Hearsay.
How come they have been together in every Flyers Party Picture out there?
I put this one up in the game thread. To me this doesn’t look like two guys who can’t stand one another.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Come on who doesn’t like each other when you are slammin’ booze and bangin’ hoes. I would be happy even if it Bin Ladden was next to me.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. I did the same with a competitor in HS and college.
Think about it (and yes, this is all conjecture, too): Carter was the much more highly touted prospect. I remember some saying he could be better than Crosby when he was drafted. Richards has the long term contract, the C, and is the cornerstone of the franchise. He is essentially Carter’s “boss” as it were. Carter prob feels he is the better hockey player, although he has yet to really prove it. Tons of talent that, but perhaps questionable work ethic.
Doubleh, I am no expert but wasn;t that situation the other way around. Richard’s was the canadian world champions captain and mister all around from the get go. He had some virus or something and never trained the first year.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
That's right.
I remember watching the 2003 draft. I was living in Conshohocken at the time and was at my gym. I was psyched when we drafted Carter because I had actually heard of him. I wasn’t as familiar with Richards – at the time, I was upset that we didn’t take Zach Parise instead.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
@Ben
Until Briere gets hurt again, when’s the last time he played a full season, what’s the longest stretch of games he’s played the past 2 seasons.
Upshall vs. Hartnell
I understand people’s points about Upshall being overrated, but at the same time it’s not like Upshall was allowed to keep developing, I’d say his celing is a lot higher than Hartnell, Hartnell isnt going to improve at this point in his career, he’s only going to decline. To say Upshall was overrated you’re assuming he had peaked, and i think that’s a bad assumption.
And as far as Carter and Richards – that possibility terrifies me.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 9:53 AM EST reply actions
And Upshall has already been benched at least once in Phoenix this season for lazy play. I’m pretty sure this isn’t the answer.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Dec 11, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
I think they want him to be more than a third line player and he isn’t. 14 points to Carcillo’s 5 is solid third line numbers for 30 games.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Dude, Briere is one of the only guys hustling night in/night out on this team. I know it breaks some people’s heart to admit it, but he is not the problem. To trade him would be a mistake.
Agreed when healthy he gives a 110%. That is why it is so frustrating about his health. But Mario is right this year it has been better than the perceived.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
Hartnell is just lazy. Hopefully when Gagne get’s back his demotion to the third line or fourth line will wake him up a little bit. I think his conditioning has never been an issue to him because since he’s been here he’s been a top line player.
I heard a lot from the fans in the offseason that Hartnell was going to take Knuble’s place setting up in front of the net. He has the size to do it, but I think the team is afraid to put him there because he seems to have a reputation of running goaltenders. Everytime he is near the net he seems to get the goaltender interference call.
by burtonboypa on Dec 11, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
You have something there but that is more evidence of him not knowing how to do it correctly because no one is working on it with him. He is definitely fearless enough to do that job.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
He has to get out of the defensive end faster to that that job. He is always lingering. He is either jostling with somebody over nothing, or he just slowly coasts out of the defensive end. More times than not by the time he is approaching the blue line the play is already coming back the other way.
by burtonboypa on Dec 11, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Seems even more about coaching this guy than an inability. But I am not here so I certainly can’t say that they haven’t tried.
by M from Pdaddy on Dec 11, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
@M From Paddy
on Upshall. exactly.
Upshall would be perfect here as a 3rd liner. Thats what i wanted from him. Carcillo-Lap-Betts is a good 4th line. This team has no 3rd line.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 10:33 AM EST reply actions
I really want Carcillo off this team. This has nothing to do with Wash. game but since last year and I maybe over the top but I just don’t like his game. Powe or Ross are better and smarter workers.
Well lets look at the positives. They’ve looked great against the Devil’s so far this year. Another Winter Classic preview, they have to want to show something there.It is nearly impossible that they wiil not be up for the Penquins. And the Ranger’s are in just as bad of free fall as we are. So a 5 game winning streak 4 against the top of the division would heal a lot of confidence issues this team seems to have. Then with that confidence you get Florida, Tampa,Carolina, and both New York teams. So if they can play these next ten games like the team that started this season we could be right back in the middle of the pack of the East.
they played much better
They showed urgency, they cleared the porch, they struggled to score but you can see they are getting the opportunities. This team is coming around the big matchup is against the Pens we will see what are team is capable of.
by whosyourjockey on Dec 11, 2009 11:16 AM EST reply actions
@mario D
how many games did he play in 08-09?
Averaging more points than anyone on this team, isnt saying that much for a team that cant score. He still doesnt produce what he’s paid for, he was supposed to be this great sniper, from what he did on the sabres, he’s nowhere near that form.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions
Do you not understand how the “reply” button works???
As for last season, that’s a ridiculous point. “He was injured last season, trade him!” In the last five seasons, he’s play 82, 48, 81, 79, and 29 games. That’s three seasons in which he missed two games or less all year.
I don’t care how good or bad the team is, he’s still the best player on the team and you’re attempting to argue that he, despite scoring more than anyone else on the team, is the problem.
@marioD
@mario D
he is not worth his contract dude, it’s that simple. He is not the same guy that was on the sabres.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Dec 11, 2009 12:04 PM EST reply actions
I disagree.
Briere has a burr in his saddle this year and, suspension aside, that’s been a good thing.
Daniel Briere is not what’s wrong with the Flyers. His contract doesn’t help, but his play has (for the most part).
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
The highest paid player on the team scores the most points on the team… seems about right to me.
He’s 46th in the league in PPG (min 10GP) with the 26th highest cap number in the NHL. A little off the pace, but not outrageously by any means, and he was a UFA, so of course there will be young, cheaper players in the same ballpark as him.
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Atlantic Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
82 | 48 | 27 | 7 | 103 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
82 | 47 | 28 | 7 | 101 |
|
Philadelphia
|
82 | 41 | 35 | 6 | 88 |
|
New York Rangers
|
82 | 38 | 33 | 11 | 87 |
|
New York Islanders
|
82 | 34 | 37 | 11 | 79 |
(updated 4.12.2010 at 9:21 AM EDT)
Flyers Schedule
Next 5 Games
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@
Pittsburgh
|
Thu 10/07 | 7:00 PM EDT |
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@
St. Louis
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Sat 10/09 | 8:00 PM EDT |
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Colorado
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Mon 10/11 | 7:00 PM EDT |
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Tampa Bay
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Thu 10/14 | 7:00 PM EDT |
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Pittsburgh
|
Sat 10/16 | 7:00 PM EDT |
Last 5 Games
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Chicago
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Wed 06/09 | OT - L 3 - 4 |
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@
Chicago
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Sun 06/06 | L 4 - 7 |
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Chicago
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Fri 06/04 | W 5 - 3 |
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Chicago
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Wed 06/02 | OT - W 4 - 3 |
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@
Chicago
|
Mon 05/31 | L 1 - 2 |
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