Optimism vs Pessimism: Flyers play well, still lose to Pens in SO
by Travis Hughes on Dec 17, 2009 10:28 PM EST
in Philadelphia Flyers Game Recaps - 09-10
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PrintWell, at least they got a point.
Despite doing just about everything right, the Flyers still fell to the Pittsburgh Penguins tonight in a shootout. They controlled five-on-five play, looked solid on the power play, and showed up to the arena tonight with a lot of heart, but still walked away without a point.
There are two schools of thought on this. You can be a pessimist and say that it's the same old Flyers, and no matter how well they played, they still lost the game and that's all that mattered. The penalty kill looked terrible. The shootout looked worse. Moral victories don't matter, right? This team is just bad, and they lost another game.
Or, you can be optimistic. The Flyers played well enough to win tonight, and in a lot of ways, they just didn't get the luck. Marc-Andre Fleury stole yet another game away from the orange and black, and you can't blame the home team for that..
In reality, it's a mixture of the two. There are reasons to be pessimistic. The Flyers still took a few terrible penalties. They looked the opposite of good on the penalty kill. There are reasons to be optimistic. In a lot of this game, played better than the Penguins. The chemistry between Scott Hartnell and Jeff Carter was fantastic, and the team received positive contributions from all four lines.
Regardless of which logic you subscribe to, you can make a solid argument.
After the jump, a few more thoughts, questions with answers, and the comment of the night.
Some more assorted thoughts...
- Chris Pronger made a few bad plays on the PK, but none was worse than a clearing attempt in which he put it right on Crosby's stick about 10 feet from the goal. Crosby roofed it to tie the game.
- In the first period, Crosby took a high stick to the face, but embellished like the world was ending. On the ensuing power play, the Penguins tied the game at one.
- "We know we can play with them." - Jeff Carter
- The penalties still need to stop. While Crosby embellished on the first one, it was still a penalty. Throughout the game, the lack of discipline still continues to haunt.
- The Penguins practice shootouts, and Dan Bylsma makes it fun for them. Should the Flyers, a team that's historically been terrible at picking up the Bettman point, take up similar preparation?
- Dan Carcillo looked quite good as well.
- There were a few questionable calls in this one, including one on Carcillo in overtime and a no call on Evgeni Malkin in the third, but they were in no way the reason the Flyers lost the game.
Comment of the Night
Come On Boys! Go out there and bite someone if you have to, lets get this thing turned around tonight. ...
Questions With Answers
- 60 minute effort? 65 minutes, actually.
- Can Boosh turn in a solid performance? Continually is coming up huge for the Flyers.
- Can the Flyers beef up on the power play and the PK, which both didn't look too great on Tuesday? We didn't get much of a look at the PP, but the PK was the reason they lost tonight.
- How does Dan Carcillo play, one game after being arguably the Flyers best player? Looked good on the PP again, as weird as that sounds. All around hard work from Carbomb.
- How's Betts look in his first game back? Played about 14 minutes, went 8 for 14 in the faceoff circle. Looked like Blair Betts.
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Comments
I’m sorry to be so pessimistic. I’m just frustrated is all.
In spite of all the positive things that the Flyers have done in two of the past 3 games, I still feel that the team is a ship without a rudder or a mast. They’re more like a life raft at this point.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I am fine with the showing last night
Listen it was Pittsburgh and we are no where near as good as them right now in this funk. Powe and Gagne are close to coming back and there will be no drastic move done now. They will see if these guys spark the roster. I have been hard on Hartnell but I expect more for his 4.2 million salary. The best line of the night was Briere, Carter, Hartnell. And I am sorry people Briere has been showing up everynight. He can not be traded right now with his no trade clause and I don’t want him moved he is fast and feisty just the guy we need. Goals are right around the corner for him. Infact last night he was robbed by marc andre fluery. Pronger played better but still expect more. I would really like to see the flyers rotate richards uptop and send Pronger to the front of the net.
by whosyourjockey on Dec 18, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Well, heres my two cents…
We played well, and took the defending Stanley Cup champions to a shoot out.
Oh excuse me, the defending Stanley Cup champs and three referees to a shoot out.
Against a lesser team I think we would have smoked them. Lets see that happen on Saturday at 1 or I’ll consider myself incorrect.
A guy could blame the refs, but there were still lots of stick infractions committed. A ref can hum and haw over a roughing call, but stuff like high sticking is pretty cut and dried. The team has to work on those. You could say Crosby embellished, and you’d be right, but that was getting called either way. And there were a few more during the game.
And the team has to expect to be watched more closely. When you lead the league in minors and PIM/G, you’re going to be watched more closely by the officials. Not necessarily saying it’s fair, but it’s the nature of the beast.
And, though it did look abysmal, the penalty kill did look really good at points as well. It resembled last year’s PK, which was just as dangerous offensively as it was defensively. Granted, it looked terrible at points as well, but there is a ray of hope piercing the darkness.
by Hatt the Moople on Dec 17, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Embellishment
Didn’t see the game but the embellishment would take away the powerplay and an important buy on the ensuing 4 v 4.
by Fr. Orange and Black on Dec 18, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
The embellishment was obvious from the camera angle, as the raised camera was right on his face, but I’m not quite sure that it was bad enough to be called for unsportsmanlike. The stick caught him right under the nose, so his reaction wasn’t extreme. Just enough to draw attention to it, and only obvious if you were specifically able to look for it.
by Hatt the Moople on Dec 18, 2009 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
Is it wrong to say I laughed when he got hit with the stick?
I don’t hate the guy, I hate the commissioner for not realizing that every market does not want this guy crammed down their throat.
by Mike B on D on Dec 18, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
You dont really need to elaborate any more on a statement that references hatred bettman. In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement “I am a hockey fan” is the same as “I hate gary bettman.”
I can’t describe in words how much that made me laugh. looks down or can i?
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Dec 18, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
To be fair, I’d blame the marketing department over just Gary Bettman. He’s the boss but he’s only one dude.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 18, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
It’s like swine flu. It just spreads.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Dec 18, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
It is not about the calls they made it is about the calls they DID NOT MAKE, I expect this team to give up 4 PPs a game that is a given but the no calls were what hurt, here is my list
1) hook on Lappy on the 1st PP that lead to a goal
2) Malkin’s punch to the head of Hartnell after the big hit
3) Crosby running into Boucher again
4) OT trip on Giroux
5) Pyroala gets taken out with a crosscheck in front of the net looking for a rebound
6) The extra 2 minutes on Orpik for the two hander to Carcillo in retaliation
They were 6 NONE CALLS that could have been made do I expect them all to be NO but half or even 2 of the 6 could have made a difference in the game. We finished 1 for 3 on the PP and 2 of them were cut sure by penalities or came off of shortened Pens power plays. To make matter worse the Flyers penalties were very tick tack calls the hook on Hartnell on the PP wasn’t much of anything, I dare you to find a slash on Carcillo in the OT period that was a joke to even it up and the delay of game on Carter for knocked a puck out of mid air over the glass could also be let go depending on the refs discretion. The game was played under two sets of rules especially late in the game giving the Pens an advantage as always. The fact that nobody is willing to write about or step up and bitch is even a bigger joke, the Carcillo play is so funny the ref didn’t have the arm up to make a call on Carcillo then after the Orpik slash called Carcillo for slashing out of nowhere. I can understand why Carcillo loses it the refs have it out for him so bad he can’t even get boarded and now slashed/speared without getting 2 minutes regardless of whether or not he skates away. Fuck the Pens, Fuck the Refs, the NHL is a joke.
Seriously now, if you keep all this pent up inside you’ll just fester and rot.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Dec 18, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
crosby is seriously gay. that high stick barely tickled his peach fuzz… should be ashamed of himself,
We really have no where else to go but up at this point so I am taking the high road and saying anything short of embarrassing themselves is improvement and they were nowhere near embarrassing tonight. Where wounded and bleeding but short of dead and I need to feel some love. So bring on that blow-hard Tortarella and those hapless rags and start the train rolling and end the year on a high note.
We really have no where else to go but up at this point so I am taking the high road and saying anything short of embarrassing themselves is improvement and they were nowhere near embarrassing tonight.
Correct. I would agree with you wholeheartedly if this were 2006-07. But it’s not.
This team was picked by many folks to be a contender. Some even picked them to win the Stanley Cup. By those standards, we should not be happy with a loss just because we didn’t embarrass ourselves.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I am trying to get some good mojo working here. And lets deal in reality we are where we should be based on how we have played. They can be better so lets hope it starts now. If they lose to the Rangers the gloves come back off dammit. I can say watching this team for a long time I hate the Blueshirts as much or more than anybody.
Question:
I DVR’d this, is it worth watching?
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 17, 2009 11:41 PM EST reply actions
(though i find myself at odds with your opinion most of the time) does this game seem like a foundation of a team that is getting out of a slump?
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 17, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
Paul Holmgren has a great line. He says a team wins games it shouldn’t heading into a slump, and loses games it shouldn’t when they are coming out of it.
They should’ve lost this game, though. They may be improving, but they’re not good yet. Lets see what happens against a bad team on Saturday.
by MarioD on Dec 18, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
fair enough.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Dec 18, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
+1 just for saying something positive about Paul Holmgren.
I know it was hard for you, so I want to give you credit for going against all you believe in. haha
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 18, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
I’d say February 2009, but maybe there was no other way around the Metropolit / Vaananen fiasco. That’s when this team really started having problems.
Metro was our healthy Blair Betts last year. I’d have him back in a heartbeat.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Put the Carcillo, Pronger and Laperierre additions, and letting Knuble go, were all very good moves.
I’m not saying I liked every single move he made before August, but there were no clunkers and only a few errors.
I agree.
February is when we started to see chinks in Holmgren’s armor, so to speak.
I had total confidence in him up to that point. That’s when I realized his cap management sucks.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
refs werent the reason we lost, but jesus come on. Hartnell drills Malkin with a clean check, both players go to the ice, Malkin hits Hartnell in the face with both fist and stick not once, but twice while hes on his back. If the situation were reversed Hartnell would be suspended, if not in Central Booking right now.
Jim Jackson was harping on blatant missed calls all night and he rarely does that unless they are exactly that…blatant
Its frustrating considering the Flyers did everything they needed to do tonight and still came up short. lets just hope they build off the many positives and dont take the “wow we played awesome adn still lost, we sucl” approach.
I loved how after Crosby made his pitch for an Oscar Coatesy (may have been jones or jacoson, dont remember) said something along the lines of “when your around sidney crosby you have to know that if you get the stick anywhere near him hes going to do that, you need to be careful”. a very nice, clean way of calling crosby out for being a whiner.
and what the hell is it with Fleury. He morphs into superman everytime he plays against the Flyers. Having one Brodeur in our division is bad enough, now we have two.
I saw scattered showers of good hockey last night. Not enough to deserve a win (though a point for the effort was fair enough), but for portions of the game, they were stringing good shifts together. Still too much dump out of the defensive zone and turn it over, still too much no look pass, but there is hope.
YES CROSBY IS A NANCY
Just figured I should start by saying that the embellishment by Sid was (again) offensive to everyone who enjoys hockey as a rough-and-tumble sport, regardless of your team preference. I don’t think anyone should ‘draw’ a penalty by acting like that.
That said, the Flyers played one helluva game last night. Matt Carle, Dan Carcillo, Richie, and Betts all had great games – as did Boosh. Pronger had a few gaffes, uncharacteristically, but I think he honestly gets nervous playing the Pens. He was deliberately and specifically brought to Philly to play against them, and I think he tries too hard when they’re playing – he didn’t look like his usual fluid, confident self. Kudos also go to Lavvy, for restoring the line combinations that make the most sense – especially Giroux and JVR together with Asham. That line played REALLY well for a third line. Shame that the extra point goes to Pittsburgh, but once you get to the shootout the outright skill level there almost automatically wins, and certainly does when Fleury has a night like that! He outright stole several goals from the Flyers. Now if we could just get the refs to play nice, and call penalties evenly …
I’m looking forward to watching the Flyers crush the Rangers tomorrow.
Definitely embellished, but 100% of NHLers embellish when a stick hits them in the face. Every player on every team does it. Carcillo should have just stayed away.
He is seriously unbalanced. What is he like off the ice? Just think if you could settle him down….
That’s a good question. I wouldn’t want to get on his bad side.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I’ve heard stories. Mostly about him being out with a few others drinking.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Dec 18, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
I totally agree with the last bullet: the refs were weak, but not the reason we lost. Team sport though it is, Pronger is the reason we lost last night. He made a number of nice plays in the 3rd period and overtime to keep the Pens at 2, but he is the reason they scored the 2 to begin with. If Bill Guerin scores even one more goal this season by smoking a cigar in front of the crease without being harassed by someone, then maybe Laviolette isn’t the answer, because that should take about five seconds of film-watching to point out the gaffe there. And the second goal was on Pronger’s shoulders for obvious reasons. I want to look at Pronger as a normal person who will make mistakes, but we paid such a %@$&ing high price for him that I basically find his overall decent level of play this season to be not enough. He’s supposed to be an on and off-ice leader, a shut-down defensive player, and a top-notch offensive player- and to get less (at least in the first few years of his tenure) – especially against those damned pens- is unacceptable. I hold him to a higher standard, and I think it’s fair to do so.
Defenseman are a lot like offensive linemen, You only really notice them when they screw up. By no means was it Prongers best game last night, but he really didnt play terrible outside of a few mistakes. They just ended up leading to goals. If the Pens didnt score off his mistakes wed be talking about Pronger as being one of the better players in the game for his shut down efforts in the 3rd.
…exactly.
i mean, coburn put up another subpar, turnover-laden game last night, but he didn’t do it right in front of the flyers net. but screwups range in severity, and coburn’s turnovers in the neutral zone certainly weren’t as big as putting the puck on crosby’s stick deep in the offensive zone when boucher is still committed from his last save.
but again, i hold pronger to a different standard, and every mistake he makes feels like a slap in the face because we gave up so much for this guy that he should be bobby freaking orr calibur. especially when his mistakes directly lead to goals. against the penguins. damnit!
also, i meant to mention, i still take the optimistic point of the view after this game (despite how pessimistic my talk so far has been). I mean, we put out a very competitive effort against one of the top 3 teams in hockey, and the team through whom the road to the stanley cup will inevitably lead- and while they were healthy at that. minor adjustments and some time in the film room (and a few lucky bounces- or at least a few less miracle saves against) and a hard-fought shootout loss like this can easily be a win next time.
I would blame the second goal against on Hartnell more than Pronger. Yes pronger was the one who turned the puck over causing the goal, but they were only in that SH situation because of an incredibly boneheaded hooking call on hartnell in front of the net in our offensive zone.
yeah. i mean, i don’t think harts really hooked the dude at all, he just dove to block the pass, but still, why was hartnell’s stick even up in the guy’s midsection at all? like, the way that play was developing, it was pretty obvious that briere was mere seconds from throwing the pass out in front- all harts had to do was get a little space from his defender- there was no need for his stick to be elevated at all. definitely a play worth of a few laps today (or whatever the equivalent of running laps is in the hockey world. skating drills or something?).
Score 3 to Win simple as that I think we lost 2-3 games when doing so expected to hold Pittsburgh to 1 goal and win is not going to cut it need to score more but we looked good and are 1-1-1 in our last 3 yeah for going 0.500 that is a start easy set of games ahead to build on we should we 4 out of the next 5 if we continue to play like that.
holmgren is a moron
every gm in the league must lick his chops at the chance to deal with him…
can you imagine the flyers today with pat sharp… ben eager…. scottie upshall… luca sbisa… antero nittimaki… r. j. umberger… justin williams… just to name a few cast offs… oh i forgot mike knuble…
no one can tell me pronger was worth 2 firsts and lupol and sbisa… the guy has been dogging it for years… well maybe not dogging it but for what he cost i expect superstar performance!!!
when the flyers get rid of holmgren and clarke and the rest of the dopes in the front office and get some people with brains and vision, the team may turn it around.. for the time being they are toast!!!!!!!!! they just wander from piller to post…
by Elmo the faithful fan on Dec 18, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions
Relax.
Holmgren is not as great as we all thought he was in 2007. That we agree upon.
Now then:
pat sharp… ben eager…. scottie upshall… luca sbisa… antero nittimaki… r. j. umberger… justin williams… just to name a few cast offs… oh i forgot mike knuble…
Getting rid of Patrick Sharp was Clarkie’s blunder. The Justin Williams trade worked for us in the short-term, but there are plenty of trades like that where teams trade for immediate veteran help while ditching potential talent in the process. This trade worked out for both sides, albeit at different times.
Mike Knuble and R. J. Umberger were cap casualties. We’d likely have kept both if we could have afforded them. Ben Eager would have been made redundant by guys like Asham and Carcillo. Speaking of Carcillo, he’s playing a more clearly defined role than Mr. Upshall, and for a lot less money.
Given how Boucher has been this year, would you really rather have Niittymaki in the lineup?
Bq. no one can tell me pronger was worth 2 firsts and lupol and sbisa… the guy has been dogging it for years…
Nothing says "dogging it" like that Stanley Cup ring he has. Granted, the price to get him was a little steep. But those are the risks you take when you acquire a star player.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Pronger trade was a win for Philly
We got rid of Lupul, who was overrated and overpaid, and the rest of the loot we gave up was:
1. A good, but not great, prospect on defense
2. A late 1st round pick last year
3. And a possible mid-to-early 1st round pick this year
In the meantime, we got a franchise defenseman, a true shutdown defender. Holmgren has made some moves that I do not like, but this was truly a great move on his part.
by memphisbrando on Dec 18, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
eager? nitty? luca? forgettable at best…
look at the guys holmgren has brought in – danny (-33 in 3 years, but produces offensively) – carcillo (mr. bad timing) – emery (injured but promising) – boucher (dont take it to a shootout please) – pronger (crosby’s number one assist man) – betts (fits a nice roll) – lappy (no more pucks to the face) – pyorala (like watching roy hobbs on VHS on my flat screen).
Holmgren brought them in and paid them well… now the players need to start producing!
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