When It Comes to Penalties, Scott Hartnell's Really Not So Bad

by Travis Hughes on Dec 22, 2009 11:51 AM EST in Features

The one major problem people seem to have with Scott Hartnell is that he's just a stupid hockey player. Yeah, he has skill, works hard, and gives you everything he has, but he takes a ton of terrible penalties along the way.

I've heard the saying "it's easy to kill off the good penalties, but not so easy to kill off the bad ones." Well, Hartnell certainly takes bad ones. As if we didn't know by just watching the games, nine of his 24 penalties this season were stick infractions such as hooking or slashing. One was an unsportsmanlike minor and one was a delay of game call. Six were roughing minors and the rest were obstruction-like calls such as holding and interference. So yeah, the majority of his penalties are just stupid ones to take.

I did some quick number crunching to find out just how badly those penalties hurt the team, in terms of goals scored on the ensuing power plays, and while I went in to the experiment expecting to find just how badly Hartnell hurt the team, I was surprised to find that it wasn't really all that bad.

By my count, Hartnell has taken at least one penalty in 17 different games. On four occasions, he's taken more than one penalty in a game, including a four penalty outing against Carolina back on Halloween. But of those 24 penalties taken, the opposition only scored four goals on the following man advantages.

The Flyers had a 1-3 record in those games, but none of those four goals were of the game-winning variety. After the first goal was scored with Hartnell in the box on Long Island back on November 25, it was in fact Scott who scored the game-winning goal later in the third period. On December 5 in an 8-2 rout at the hands of the Capitals, the goal scored following Hartnell's slashing minor was the eighth of the game and, for all intents and purposes, completely meaningless. Last night, Hartnell's tripping penalty led to Florida's first goal. You could argue that the goal hurt the Flyers psychologically, but to tie it to the 4-1 loss is really not possible.

In reality, you can point to just one occasion all season long where Hartnell cost his team a point in the standings due to a stupid penalty. Last Thursday against the Penguins, his second period hooking penalty led to a game-tying goal by Sidney Crosby in a game that Pittsburgh eventually won in a shootout.

Scott Hartnell might be stupid, but his stupidity doesn't hurt the Flyers nearly as much as we'd like to believe.

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Hartnell took stupid penalties last year. The only difference is we’re not winning. He’s getting the brunt of the fans anger. If we were still winning like last year he would not nearly be taking as much flak. He took a couple bad penalties during what few and pathetic chances we’ve had on the PP and a couple scoring chances. Hartnell is not to blame. We need to score goals. If we start winning, all will be forgiven.

by SkookFlyerfan on Dec 22, 2009 12:35 PM EST reply actions

I like Hartnell regardless of the occasional penalties. He adds some personality to this team of lackluster characters. I know in the grand scheme of winning this doesn’t mean a whole lot, but part of team chemistry is personality and this team is lacking it and he adds what little they have. I was no Lupul fan but he and Carter seem to be missing him greatly. In trying to trade away the partying spirit of this team they seemed to have broken up a group of guys who genuinely liked each other and worked for one another. That goes for Upshall as well.

by MJDII on Dec 22, 2009 12:41 PM EST reply actions

The personality isnt putting the puck in the net!
We have a lockeroom of cool personalities instead of a team

by Prometheus74 on Dec 22, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions

No one is putting the puck in the net right now.

by SkookFlyerfan on Dec 22, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions

Thats what im saying.
We collected Cool personalities rather than hockey players, and thats gotta change

by Prometheus74 on Dec 22, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions

The guy that is the most void of personality is the captain. Have you ever seen those West German BMW commercials, wow, exhilarating. And Zac Morris the second star on this team really adds no personality to the team what-so-ever. I am tired of the bullies and the 70’s, but I would like to see Carter just get mad once, lose it on someone. You know “Get that fuckin’ stick in their side. Let ‘em know you’re there! Get that lumber in his teeth. Let ‘em know you’re there! Bleed all over ‘em. Let ’em know you’re there.” Something to let us know he is there.

by MJDII on Dec 22, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions

I can’t edit via mobile, but once I wrote he had 24 penalties on the year and once I wrote 25. The correct number is 24.

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by Travis Hughes on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions

Got ya covered.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 22, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions

Nice analysis. I am a big fan of Hartnell’s – even with the mental lapses.

by SanDiegoScraps on Dec 22, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions

In his defense, the Penguins fan despise him more than a repo man knocking on your door during a Christmas dinner, so that has to count for something.

by Prometheus74 on Dec 22, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions

I love that about him also. He literally drives people nuts just by the site of him. Even the other teams and players find themselves wondering what is with this nut job.

by MJDII on Dec 22, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions

It’s all about the hair. It’s the first thing you notice about him. I’d love to see him score a hat trick at the Mellon one day and Flyers fans at the game throw some wigs on the ice. Hell, at this point I’d love ANY of them to score.

by Kanayd on Dec 22, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions

“The one major problem people seem to have with Scott Hartnell is that he’s just a stupid hockey player.”

You could have ended your article right there, since it seems to sum everything up quite nicely.

by LegionofDoom on Dec 22, 2009 1:17 PM EST reply actions

I like Hartnell, but liked him more when he was scoring AND taking penalties, now he’s just taking penalties. his 30/30 last year was what made most people not care, now his PIM’s are more blatant.

by JpH89 on Dec 22, 2009 1:58 PM EST reply actions

If not Harnell then who?
I like the guy, but is is worth more than a used mouthguard, so teams will be interested in him. If we got a good return Id rather see him go than JVR or Giroux

by Prometheus74 on Dec 22, 2009 1:59 PM EST reply actions

i think JVR and Giroux are the two safe people wanyway

by JpH89 on Dec 22, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions

They are the most wanted b/c of the talent and lack of an 87,00000 lb contract around their necks. I pray we keep them.

by Prometheus74 on Dec 22, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions

If Homer trades either one of them he should be run out of town!!!!!

by rvd420pete on Dec 22, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions

ok, so the opposition didn’t score on the ensuing power play after most Hartnell penalties….he’s still putting his team down a man for at least 2 minutes (a lot of times on ‘stupid penalties’), which tires out the players on PK, prevents any type of sustained offensive pressure, and interrupts any rhythm the team may have been in. Just because there is no goal, it doesn’t excuse the bad play.

by KevinEdward on Dec 22, 2009 2:14 PM EST reply actions

Exactly. Even if we don’t give up goals on his penalties, it disrupts our rhythm.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Dec 22, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions

not that they’ve had much of a rhythm recently, but still…it prevent even the opportunity.

by KevinEdward on Dec 22, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions

And it’s only emphasized because our two primary penalty killers are Carter and Richards – who we are also asking to provide the offensive spark for the team. Those guys are playing tons of minutes in high pressure situations and it is (likely) affecting their ability to be as strong at even strength and on the power play. Hartnell’s tripping call yesterday that cut off the Flyer’s power play was just completely lazy and inexcusable. Gotta have more accountability than that.

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by Jordan Ellel on Dec 22, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions

This team is beyond “accountability.” Both Stevens and Laviolette put them through bag skates all the time, to no avail. The only thing I can see being helpful at this point is if you quite literally call up every Phantom with an NHL contract and ask every single player on the NHL roster not named Laperriere or Boucher to go down to the AHL on a “conditioning stint” to fit within both leagues’ roster regulations. And keep them down there for more than one game. God knows another loss in the NHL wouldn’t mean much at this point.

by Ben Feldman on Dec 22, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions

The vet rule in the AHL would prevent that. AHL teams have to dress at least 11 players who have played less than 200 something games at the AHL level or above.

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by Travis Hughes on Dec 22, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions

Even players on conditioning stints count against that? And so what if they did? This organization’s never been scared about fines before.

by Ben Feldman on Dec 22, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions

You’re right, they don’t count. But you’ve got to imagine there’s some kind of limit on how many guys you can have sent down for that reason at a time.

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by Travis Hughes on Dec 22, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions

Because, of course, that’s the only thing stopping this ridiculous idea from coming to fruition.

by MarioD on Dec 22, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions

To analyze whether his penalties are stupid or not really doesnt matter if a team scores on the power play or not. How many of those penalties took away a flyers PP?

Then again, myabe he’s just trying to teach the other forwards how to stay in the offensive zone (for when you break out)…

by bfrank27 on Dec 22, 2009 3:06 PM EST reply actions

The Inky has taken to calling this team the “Legion of Gloom.” I usually hate everything the Inky does with regard to the Flyers, but this makes me chuckle (masochist that I am).

by doubleh on Dec 22, 2009 3:58 PM EST reply actions

It’s true, it’s true; all the pieces fit.

The title of this thread should be, “When It Comes to Penalties, Scott Hartnell’s Really Not So Bad. But When It Comes to Everything Else, the Rest of the Team Sucks.”

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Dec 22, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions