Revisiting the Carcillo for Upshall trade
by Travis Hughes on Mar 31, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
in Commentary
21 comments
Over the weekend, I planned on taking a look at the controversial trade deadline deal that saw Scottie Upshall head to Phoenix for tough guy Daniel Carcillo. It got pushed back to today, but it needs to be known that I didn't plan on Upshall scoring two critical goals in his new teams' 6-5 win over Dallas last night.
So if you're planning on saying something like "you're only writing this because Upshall had a great game last night," stop now. That's not the case.
But it certainly is rather interesting. First off, let's look at the stats of each player since the deal was made.
Obviously, Upshall has been the better offensive player. We were told when this deal was made that these guys were essentially the same player. There wouldn't be much drop off in offense with Upshall going out the door. Well, look at the numbers.
Upshall has been playing on a line with Matthew Lombardi and Petr Prucha, who were both deadline pick ups as well. Lombardi has five goals with Phoenix and Prucha has two. Scottie has been the best player on that line. Period. Don't believe me? Here's what a Phoenix fan has to say.
Apparently [Upshall] is going to make [Gretzky's] line swapping look like genius everytime it includes inserting [Scottie] into a line. According to Panger & Co (the Phoenix broadcasters), [Upshall] has an uncanny ability to bring energy and heart to any line he’s played on. If you didn’t love the Carcillo trade, you still gotta give Upshall his props for what he’s brought to the 'Yotes in his short tenure.
Let's flip that last line around. "If you didn't love the Upshall trade, you still gotta give Carcillo his props for what he's brought to the Flyers in his short tenure." Does that sound right?
When Carcillo was picked up, the optimistic among us basically said that he didn't have a chance to let loose his offensive potential in Phoenix, due to, among other things, a lack of skilled linemates. In Philadelphia, Carcillo has had a chance to play with Danny Briere, Claude Giroux, Joffrey Lupul, Mike Richards, and Jeff Carter at one point or another. If you didn't get the memo, those guys can score. With the exception of the rookie Giroux, all have scored 25 goals in a season in their careers.
Carcillo has had excellent opportunities to show his offensive worth and he hasn't done it. Making it even harder to swallow, Upshall's offensive potential seems to be growing in the desert.
But okay, let's be fair here. Carcillo isn't going to be the next Gretzky (neither is Upshall, for that matter), but he does bring something of worth to the table. He's not a defensive liability and he does bring good energy every time he hits the ice. He has been an effective tough guy for the Flyers, and he's yet to hurt the team with a stupid penalty yet. He actually wins fights too (I'm looking at you, Riley).
But on Saturday night against the Islanders, I believe we saw a perfect representation of Carcillo's worth on this team. He dropped the gloves with Nate Thompson of the Isles at a time of the hockey game where the Flyers needed a spark. A good idea, yes. But literally one second later, Cote went at it with Josh Rechlicz, and then three minutes later, Arron Asham fought Tim Jackman.
If that's not proof that the Flyers have too many of these "energy guys" or "enforcers" or "tough guys" or whatever you want to call them, then what is?
Carcillo hasn't been a terrible Flyer. I enjoy his style of play, just as Paul Holmgren said we all would. But I still don't see why the deal was made. The same criticisms I had on deadline day ring just as loud today. What are your thoughts?
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pretty much the same
i don’t hate chico. he brings energy and passion, but so did upshall. o, and carcillo can fight.
what i don’t like about him is the stupid penalties, and that he won an oscar last game for embelishing a high stick.
but upshall can score. and backcheck. and hit.
hindsight being 20/20, we should have kept upshall and gotten carcillo. drop cote and jones, and bring up sbisa or svret(the guy who took jones’ spot when he was hurt).
World F#$king Champions
by psudrozz on Mar 31, 2009 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Upshall is given the opportunity to play on the top line and top powerplay for the yotes
the trade was made solely to make room for briere and giroux to fit into the line up. obviously a dude like upshall can’t spend the better part of his career on the third line. he was given a chance to be the guy… and he’s good enough to be that top line guy. but the flyers weren’t able to fit him into that top line.
that’s why i dont think it wise to compare cillo with upshall, the trade had more facets attached
by fitzy first on Mar 31, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Still indifferent
I’ll start by saying I was a huge Upshall fan and was waiting for the deadline to pass to pick up an Ups jersey tee, which turned out to be a good call, though i bought one still on the cheap.
Anyway, if you remember when Scottie came here at the end of that awful season I won’t dignify by name, he was scoring like a mad man. I was anointing him as a 30 goal guy in the following seasons, which never happened. So when we’re evaluating the trade, we have to take into consideration Scottie loves a change of scenery. Let’s see if it trails off again.
(Bring him back in free agency)
by astcter on Mar 31, 2009 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree with 2nd post
You can’t compare them when Upshall is getting a ton more icetime and more importantly powerplay time. Carcillo was on a line with Richards for a couple of games and I believe that’s when he’s gotten his assists.
Look, I don’t love the trade, but it’s obvious most of the hate for Carcillo comes from the fact that he was involved with Upshall leaving. In any other situation, he would be loved. He actually wins fights (unlike Cote) and he brings an insane amount of energy and never takes any shit i.e. a Flyer. He’s going to be loved and he shows signs of real skill at times and he seems pretty fast when he turns the jets on.
by Will21 on Mar 31, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're missing the point
The Upshall trade was never about trading talent for talent, no matter what the team would have you believe. It was about trading contracts. With Upshall, the team was so bumped up against the cap that it couldn’t call up a replacement player from the AHL team without giving one back. Without him, they have just enough room to call up a player. And if they kept Upshall, as pushed against the projected cap as they will be in ‘09-’10, they would have the same problems next year. No team wants to take on salary these days, so this was probably the best deal they could do and find some cap space. Everybody knows Upsahll’s the better player. But Carcillo’s contract makes this a good deal.
by memphisbrando on Mar 31, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont necessarily buy the contract argument, I remember travis broke the contracts down on deadline day and the trade only freed up a handful of cap space, if i recall the space it freed up does not influence whether or not we would have to send down Giroux.
the trade overall is pretty much a wash. I dont think it has made us any better, nor has it necessarily made us any worse. Carcillo plays hard but I have yet to see this underrated offensive potential we kept hearing about after the trade. he has yet to commit a terrible penalty but he always seems to be on the brink of doing so with how he’s constantly chirping at the refs. Its nice to see someone win fights but fighting means nothing come playoff time.
overall, Carcillo and Upshall pretty much bring the same amount of intensity to the ice. Upshall does so with speed, Carcillo does so with hitting and shit-talking. I think there is some legitimacy to the argument that Carcillo provides protection for guys like Giroux and Briere but overall he hasnt made a huge difference. In the end I still wouldnt have made the trade but it really hasnt changed the team all that much.
however, the trade really does make Cote worthless. we’re just waisting a roster spot that could be used to groom a young guy like Jared Ross or be filled by a veteran leader.
by njh3293 on Mar 31, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Contract situation is twofold...
Carcillo is getting paid something in the neighborhood of $400K less than Upshall, but since it is compounded over the course of the season, it actually frees up over $1M of cap space to keep someone on the roster for the rest of the season. So basically the Flyers for this season are able to have Carcillo + a guy making $1M over the course of the season…but just as big is next season when Carcillo is still signed for the same amount, but Upshall will be getting a decent pay raise as an RFA. And it’s mostly for this next season that necessitated the draft pick (which is a 2011 2nd rounder, which is big, but not HUGE).
I agree with the posters pointing out the minutes each player is receiving…Upshall is getting prime ice time for a team that doesn’t have players that are looked to as goal scorers. His role is to be “the guy” making things happen. Carcillo is there to provide energy, big hits, and an occassional great pass. From what I’ve seen of Flyers games since the trade, he’s been serving that role fairly well. He will never have the spped or hands that Upshall does, but I think this was a win-win trade, especially if John Stevens realizes that keeping Cote on the postseason roster is not worthwhile.
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Moridin417 on Mar 31, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that
they view Cote as a veteran leader, to some degree. I read an article talking about how much he mentored Sbisa, invited him to stay in his house whenever, showed him around Philly. Maybe he’s not really a veteran, but certainly has taken a leadership role to some degree I think.
by Alon on Mar 31, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What no one has mentioned here is the second round draft pick the Flyers also lost in this deal. Even without it the trade looks bad, and with it it looks terrible.
Carcillo has shown no offensive touch, and needs to be put on the fourth line immediately. Let Asham or Powe on the third.
Swing by The Flyer Frequent. You have nothing better to do.
by Ben Rothenberg on Mar 31, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Win the cup
That is the entire point of the venture, is it not?
I agree with the others who have said, that on this team, Carcillo is a 4th line player. I agree 100% that Asham has more skill, finesse and playmaking touch than Carcillo on his best day. When given the opportunity, he isn’t looking to generate offensive threat — he’s just looking for the nearest player he can run into. Usually, when Philly has puck possession, Carcillo, if he doesn’t outright lose the puck, skates as directly as possible at the net and dumps the puck at the net upon the first opportunity. Is there anyone who has watched the games since the trade deadline who could even begin to make a case that Carcillo is a better 2 way player, and more valuable to the team than Upshall was?
The only question that should have been asked at the time, is whether or not the trade would make the team better. Not whether it might generate a little cap room. Not whether Upshall would be an RFA next year — you deal with next year when the season is done, and clearly ours is not.
At the end of the day, we will never know what might have been. I give Stevens incredible credit for recognizing the unbelievable potential of Giroux and mixing him into the top lines and powerplays. It would have been incredibly exciting to see what might have happened with Upshall, and we’ll probably continue to mourn the lost potential of an Upshall Giroux Briere line, or even Upshall Richards Lupul.
Ultimately, it’s a bad trade, but one that the Flyers have recovered from.
by Gizmoitus on Mar 31, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you summed my own opinion nicely as well
with the caveat that I think Carcillo isn’t as bad as you say (and I have seen the games), and Upshall not as good. So basically your opinion, but I think both players lie closer to the center than bumbling idiot and 40-goal-premiere talent. Not that you’re saying that, but you get my drift.
by Alon on Mar 31, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have you been watching the games???
Carcillo is a good/smart hockey player. not once have i seen him take a run at someone, get in a fight for no reason, or play with no energy. and to say that he is a terrible 2-way player, wow!!! he is a great passer and a great back-checker and plays stand up defense. sure he may not be a goal scorer like upshall, but hes a very smart and talented hockey player. while i do love Asham, he isn’t near the player that carcillo is with the puck. also, you need to look at the enforcer role too, Asham is a decent fighter but he’s not a great fighter, and we all know how awful cote is at fighting, but you need a good fighter for the playoffs to stand up for your stars. i loved upshall, he was one of my favorite players and will miss him, but if you really saw carcillo play, you would know that he is a great fit for the team not just for this season but in the future as well.
by JpH89 on Apr 1, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's just agree to disagree :D
Yes i watch all the Flyers games on DirectTV. I’ve seen every game that Carcillo has played. I don’t think he’s a terrible player — just not very skilled. In fact, in the Toronto game, he played I think his best game for the Flyers. The Flyers still lost.
With that said — I don’t think he’s a better fighter than Asham. However, even if he was, I think fighting accomplishes very little to influence the outcome of the game in today’s NHL I played Division 1AA college hockey, and from my own experience, can say that the physical aspect of the game can have an impact, but I don’t believe that two enforcers fighting, and the outcome of a fight, has any impact on the game whatsoever. My belief is that it’s for the fans. So I really don’t care much about Carcillo’s fighting ability.
I was pretty clear from the start, that I thought this was a horrible trade, and at the time, I remember thinking — be ready to eat your words, after I read some of the things that Phoenix fans were saying about Carcillo’s potential. Hell I was hoping I’d have to eat my words on this, but with each passing game, it becomes clearer that I won’t. Watching Carcillo so far, I just don’t see a player with a lot of natural hockey ability. If all he’s bringing to the table is a replacement for Cote’s ability to drop the gloves, then that’s fine, but they should have got rid of Cote — not Scot Upshall, who was probably the Flyer’s fastest player.
Watching the Flyers slip back into a mini slump at the worst possible time of the season, I sure miss the jump that Upshall brought to the table, and his ability to put together a big shift that seemed to energize the entire team. Instead, I’m watching the Canes pass the Flyers into 4th, on a night were Scott U, scores the game winner for Phoenix as they beat the Kings. Brutal.
by Gizmoitus on Apr 3, 2009 4:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I miss Upshall...
… but at least the players seem to like Chico / Car Bomb / Whatever Else They Call Carcillo.
I don’t think we should really judge Carcillo until next year. He was having a rough go of it in Phoenix, and likely feels a lot of pressure here. He’s gone from a team no one really follows to a big-market club. He’s moved from the golf course to the playoffs. Finally, he replaced a very popular player in Upshall, and I’m sure he knows it. It will be interesting to see how he handles a completely fresh start in September. Until then, I’m holding off my final judgment.
What I miss most about Upshall was his knack for scoring clutch goals. He didn’t score often, but every goal was important. I was at three games this year (3-2 OT loss to NJ, 3-1 win vs. Wild, and 4-1 win over Toronto) where Upshall scored when we needed someone to step up. One can only imagine the effect he’d have had in our recent close losses to Florida and Boston.
This trade was only made because of dollars and cents, as well as Danny Briere and Claude Giroux. Sometimes you have to lose players you want to keep – it is the way of things in the salary-cap era. I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do about it.
Speaking of “too many enforcers,” how long is Asham on the payroll? I thought we only signed him for one year but I could be wrong. I’d rather keep him and ditch Cote.
by mikefive on Mar 31, 2009 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
till next year
we got Asham till after next season, and yes cote will be gone(we already benched him the last game) also i like the trade. i loved upshall but we weren’t gonna keep him next year anyway, so im happy to 1. not only get someone in return but 2. get someone to replace the the obviously worse player on the team. will i miss upshall, yes. will i live with this trade, yes.
by JpH89 on Apr 1, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that we gave up a 2nd round draft pick?
by Gizmoitus on Apr 3, 2009 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point.
Upshall had that intangible knack for stepping up from time to time when the team most seemed to need it. Reading all these posts, everyone seems to agree that Upshall brought something great to the table.
It was something that couldn’t be boiled down to the stats. And one of those intangibles was the fact that Upshall seemed to pop a goal in from time to time when the Flyers really needed it. Man we could use that intangible right about now.
by Gizmoitus on Apr 3, 2009 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
McLaren
The whole reason for the Upshall trade was clearing cap space for McLaren, who failed his physical and voided the trade. I think we would be singing a little different tune had that deal stayed together and McLaren was a Flyer.
by flyersfan35 on Apr 1, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why? The guy was injured all season. By all means lets get a big lumbering goon who is injured and out of shape. I’m sure that would have put us over the top.
by Gizmoitus on Apr 3, 2009 4:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Upshall Trade = Brier & Giroux in the lineup for the rest of the regular season
Obviously, I am a huge Scottie fan. Hard not to be…He plays with the heart and has skills that most of us can only dream about. I would be happy to have his skills…
Homer is not one for divulging reason and frankly the FLyers for the past 40 years have been deft of reasons for anything.
This trade is purely money though…no other reason. The trade shaved $500K off the flyers cap and we took a ‘flyer’ on Carcillo with no hopes of anything. Why else do you think PHX would ONLY do it with the draft pick. This trade was so one-sided, I actually think Homer got ripped off and would have been better off keeping Scottie and letting him go at the end of the year.
ALSO…If Homer was really smart he would have kept Upshall and floated a few players back and forth so we could get Briere and Giroux playing time. Remember, once the playoffs hit, there is no cap to worry about.
At the end of the day this was a horrible trade. It ws short sighted and if we replaced Carcillo with Nodl right now, I would be completely fine with that.
Maybe Homer needs to hire a capologist? ;-)
by Upshall4MVP on Apr 1, 2009 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Through 12/23 The Flyers are 22-24-4 (including playoffs) since the Upshall-Carcillo trade. Just a thought….
by delawarept on Dec 23, 2009 9:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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