Kunitz's hit was Philadelphian
by Travis Hughes on Apr 21, 2009 2:13 AM EDT
in 2009 Playoffs
50 comments
The hit above has been the subject of conversation all day around here. Honestly, I can't see how it's possibly considered dirty.
From a strictly "rules of body checking" standpoint, let's break down the hit. Looking very closely at the video, Kunitz does not leave his feet before making contact with Kimmo. He might leave the ice after the hit, but there's nothing wrong with that. Was it a hit to the head? Sure, but that is just because Timonen is a short guy.
And was it an elbow? Hardly. Kunitz got his forearm up, but as Bill Clement said on Post Game Live yesterday and repeated again on the In The Slot program on XM today, if Kunitz got an elbow up, Timonen would still be looking up at the rafters right now. With the sheer force that Kunitz came in with, Kimmo would've been out for the count.
At the absolute worst, it could be considered a charge considering how much ground Kunitz covered to make the hit. But a cheapshot? Negative.
The players themselves spoke to the media about the incident today.
"You can tell that for sure, I didn’t have the puck. It was in the corner. If he is going into the game trying to hurt me, that’s fine. I don’t really care. Hopefully, we can do the same things to them tomorrow. It really doesn’t bother me unless I don’t stay healthy. I’m fine now. I’m looking forward to tomorrow, actually."
>> Kimmo Timonen
It was just one of those things where you’re going… I just came down to finish a check. I think it looked probably worse than it really was. I think he pulled away. It’s just one of those things you go out and play hard and try and finish your checks and we’ve been trying to do that all series.
>> Chris Kunitz
Should the Penguins be targeting Kimmo Timonen? You're damn right they should. Just as the Flyers should be targeting Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin and Sergei Gonchar each and every shift. That's hockey. At least, that's the style of hockey we preach in Philadelphia. Finish your checks. Play hard, and keep your freakin' head up.
Scott Hartnell did the right thing by going after Kunitz right away. He challenged him to a bout, and to his credit, Kunitz stepped up.
"I tapped him on the leg," said Hartnell. "He dropped the mitts. Even if it’s a clean hit or dirty hit, to drop the mitts, [he’s] a pretty honest player, Kunitz"
That's how it's supposed to be, and Mike Richards agrees.
“That’s kinda maybe our strategy," the Captain said. "Every chance I get, I’m trying to hit Malkin and Crosby and taking runs at Gonchar, too. I’m sure they’re not too thrilled about that, but its playoff hockey. That’s what you try to do. You get them off your game.”
If the game of hockey needs anything, it's that the referees need to step back a little bit. Allow the players to police themselves. If Chris Kunitz lays out Kimmo Timonen, let Scott Hartnell fight him and it's over. If Mike Richards hits Evgeni Malkin, let Brooks Orpik fight him and it's over. That's how hockey should be played.
We pride ourselves on hard-nosed, physical hockey in this city. So when another team plays the same way, let's not practice a double-standard. Accept it (applaud it even), and hit 'em harder next time.
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In retrospect I guess it was a clean hit, but what makes me mad is that had that been Carcillo hitting Crosby it would have been a penalty and/or suspension.
by njh3293 on Apr 21, 2009 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
Yes, we play hard-nosed hockey, and at times, very undisciplined. That has given teams the opportunity to play the same way, without the same repercussions. Kunitz’s game one hit was a 4 strider into the boards, to the knee, with an intent to injure.
The recent hit was a blow to the head after several strides, delivered to a guy who did not have the puck. That is either charging or interference. Was this attempt less dangerous than Carcillo’s? Come on.
Let’s not stick out our chests and say that’s our style. Kunitz’s hits were cheap and cowardly, and clear attempts to injure. Don’t call that Philadelphean.
by PA Hockey on Apr 21, 2009 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
......
he put his shoulder square in his chest. if a flyer or any other team is able to catch geno or sid with his head down and tattoes him, the same applies. kimmo is smart enough to know that in this series he needs to keep his head up all the time. it has been a clean series for the most part, bot sides have taken liberties and cheap shots. that however is NOT one of them. a clean open ice hit dead square in the chest. that is hockey, dont like it…go watch baseball
by oldtimehockey09 on Apr 22, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one-sided
It’s not that I think that hit was dirty, I just think it’s proof of the one-sided calls in this series. This hard hit that appeared to be charging was not called and yet the pathetic “slashing” call in overtime that gave the pens a 5 on 3 was called. I’m not saying that it was not a slash according to the letter of the rules. However on the same standards Kunitz’s hit on Timmonen should have been a charge. Where’s the parity? Oh yeah, it doesn’t exist for teams named Flyers.
by SC Flyer Fan on Apr 21, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I Agree Travis
As I said on one of the posts, it just sucks that it was Kimmo. I understand what people are saying, but if Carcillo did that to Crosby, Malkin, or Gonchar and got a penalty (as i’m sure he would), we’d all be pissed saying it was a clean hit.
Just go out in Game 4, stay disciplined, and if you see a shot, take it. But don’t give the refs a reason to call a penalty, since they know Philly will be looking for a hit just as nasty.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 10:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Call it both ways
I was sitting in the section at the end of the ice where that happened. After breathing a short sigh of relief when the puck was recovered from the mouth of the goal, that explosive hit came out of nowhere. That type of hit is one of several hits the Flyers have received throughout the series that they wouldn’t even dare attempting on the Pens. Is there a difference between following through with your check and ‘finishing’? With Crosby draped on Timonen’s back, there was no reason for Kunitz to have his hands up with the blade of his stick swinging recklessly in the air. It is acceptable in the open ice but should be a penalty when a player is stuck coming out from behind the net . With the Flyers track record of concussion the league should do more to protect the players against unnecessary shots to the head. In a game of inches, we are very fortunate that Kimmo says he’s okay, although I am worried about the long term effects on his body. He could have very well have pulled a Crosby and embellished the hit to draw a penalty.
Some of the calls the refs did make were more controversial, I think Giroux earned a fighting major that game.
by Samadhi_Rising on Apr 21, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said Travis. I’m actually happy to see the Flyers agreeing with the call, especially Timonen. My only question now is – did Hartnell’s fight with Kunitz end it there, or did the hit put a target on his back for the rest of the series?
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by FrankD on Apr 21, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
FYI – By “his back” I mean Kunitz, just to clear it up
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
by FrankD on Apr 21, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure it put a target on his back, if not with the players, at least with the fans.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t believe the players will be gunning for Kunitz. However, if they have him lined up for a hit, they might be willing to expend a little more energy and let Kunitz know it.
"...You know, Reemer, someday I'm gonna own a big sports bar."
by IcersGuy on Apr 21, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the risk you take in hockey, right? He’d taken a shot at Kimmo before that, so it depends on whether or not he goes after him again, I think.
This is why they can’t disallow fighting in hockey. The players have to be able to protect their own…on any team. Officiating is so terrible that you can’t rely on refs to keep the players honest. Anybody who thinks fighting should be removed from the sport obviously doesn’t really understand the game.
It seems the Flyers and Pens understand all this from their comments following the game. Kunitz lays the hit—Kimmo’s not prone so he absorbs it and gets back up—and Hartnell goes after him to fight and Kunitz obliges. It’s how things are done. Next time it happens, same thing. Good show.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup
agreed. this is the playoffs. everything is ratched up a bit. i am suprised we have seen more guys from both sides get flattened like that. geno is always skating the the nuetral zone with his head down…freaks me out a bit
by oldtimehockey09 on Apr 22, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a clean hit…not that the flyers would recognize one of those. What you can’t hit, you tackle. Oh well, maybe Hartnell can throw his stick at kunitz.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Except for the fact that the Flyers HAVE recognized it as a clean hit…
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please with this holier than thou crap. The Pens know how to be just as dirty as anybody in the league. You don’t get far in the playoffs without knowing how. It’ called playoff hockey and teams that can’t hang with it (see Capitals) don’t usually last long.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are exactly right doubleh, the Penguins are a team that employed Georges Laraques for heavens sake. The Penguin can “goon” it up too . . . The Flyers boast 6 25 goal scorers. I love how we get grouped as the only “goon” team that plays. There is no other team that even comes close to the caliber of offensive skill that the Flyers have. I am sorry the Flyers play hockey the way it should be played – tough and skilled . . . oh, wait, no I am not.
by flyrsfrk05 on Apr 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is no double standard. ever since this hit the ref have been trying to keep to tight a reign on the games…see games three and 4. c’mon man 13 penalties, let em play. imo when its playoff time, unless it prevents a goal scoring opertunity or raws blood, it isnt a penalty. if the ref would let both these teams sakte this series would be much more entertaining, although the outcome would not be different i dont think.
by oldtimehockey09 on Apr 22, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
.....
every team employees an enforcer to protect the big guns….see riley cote and can it about larouqe. at least g can play. riley cant, thats why hes been scratched this entire series. as far as your offensive depth… out scored in the series 13-10, 0-8 on the power play in game four. deep as a puddle maybe. granted sykora, kunakaze, and the entire third line are struggling for pittsburgh. if the pens wingers werent in a funk this series would have been over tonight
by oldtimehockey09 on Apr 22, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats exactly what I am saying. Every team has an enforcer because that is part of the game. You completely missed my point. I am saying that the Flyers are not the only team that has goons. I was commenting on the fact that Penguins fans complain about us playing “goon” hockey when they are just as capable. My comment on offensive depth was to show that we are well rounded; tough and skilled. Again, the series can hardly be defined just by the fact that they Flyers are being outscored. The score doesn’t say much about Game 4 considering the Flyers had more shots and controlled the tempo of the game coming incredibly close on numerous occasions as well as ringing shots off the pipe. The Flyers did everything a hockey team would want to do except put the puck in the net. Because Fluery had a good game does in no way discredit the Flyers offensive depth.
by flyrsfrk05 on Apr 22, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how “if the pens wingers weren’t in a funk this series would have been over tonight.” Completely ignoring the facts (listed in the comment you replied to): SIX 25-goal scorers. Richards has 1 goal. Carter (second in the league in goals) has 1. What if our stars weren’t in a funk? But of course, it doesn’t matter. If your third line weren’t struggling…
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 22, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I was in the middle of the conversation yesterday and unless I read wrong mostly everyone was agreeing that it was clean hit. Like most of us have said, kudos to Kunitz. He put on a good hit and even fought Hartnell when challenged. To me, that is the right. You lay a hit and take responsibility.
What I don’t like how Kunitz seems to be playing with intent to injure. Yes, that is an arguable statement as well. But regardless of where his elbow was it was Kimmo’s head that Kunitz made contact with. Whether Kunitz was aiming for the head or not no one knows. It may have been clean but it was dangerous nonetheless. All we ask is for equal treatment.
But you are definitely right to warn against the double standard, Travis. There is a way to be biased in favor of your team but realistic at the same time.
by flyrsfrk05 on Apr 21, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My apologies Shagg…Flyers FANS don’t recognize a clean hit, at least judging by most of the comments I’ve seen. But again, they’re used to seeing the Flyers playing, so they rarely see them.
I don’t believe that Kunitz had “intent to injure”. That being said, you’re not skating at someone to bring them flowers. But I don’t think he was trying to kill the guy or anything.
And really, can we lay the whole “refs are biased against us” stuff to rest? The hooking call in game 2 was sketchy at best, but you got that right back in game 3 when Geno got called for the same thing. Same offense, called the same way in 2 different games. One benefitted you, one benefitted us. Pretty even to me. Plus as I alluded to in my prior post, Hartnell got away with throwing his stick at Malkin’s feet, which could have led to a penalty shot.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I refer you to the previous comment by flyrsfrk05. And the title of this post.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should add, that the other posts that I was referring to were from philly.com.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And I’m sure almost everyone here can agree, those comments can be pretty stupid. Including some of the Philly.com writers.
Either way, Travis was trying to lay this whole argument to rest by posting this, and seemingly everyone on this thread agrees.
But personally, the refs are ALWAYS out to get us, and the breaks we get are purely making up for the blown calls from before. (Blatant bias intended. It’s “truthiness”)
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a Stephen Colbert word. It was actually “word of the year in 2006” as voted by the American Dialect Society. It’s now officially in the dictionary. As a huge etymology nerd myself, I would soooo love to invent my own word and get it in the dictionary. It’s totally awesome.
1. truthiness (noun)
1 : “truth that comes from the gut, not books” (Stephen Colbert, Comedy Central’s “The Colbert Report,” October 2005)
2 : “the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true” (American Dialect Society, January 2006)
I’d say it defines a lot of what we fans think we see/know as opposed to the actual facts of what occurs on the field/ice/court. Only the players themselves really know.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s actually exactly what I was going for. Glad someone picked up on it.
Was Colbert’s comment in regard to something Bush did, or his mentor, Papa Bear?
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was primarily directed at Bush and first used for his decision to nominate Myers to the Supreme Court and the decision to invade Iraq. But it grew and eventually he even used it for Wikipedia, which is so true.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And for the love of all things holy
Please don’t read Philly.com comments sections. Primarily knuckle dragging, know-nothing, WIP- calling idiots post there—most of them just to see their stupid diatribes in print form.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it’s easy to spew venom when you don’t have to use your real name.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hit on Kimmo
Sorry Travis,
The puck was no longer with Kimmo. It was a blow to the head. Whether the elbow was tucked or not – well ? But it was a blow to the head with intent to injure. If a FLyer did it it would be a 20 game suspension. Kunitz has tried to injure Kimmo twice in the series. Kunitz gets respect for fighting Hartnell? – yeah OK – but he gets no respect for intent to injure. I will shed no tears if “legal hit” ends a couple of Penguin careers.
by Fr. Orange and Black on Apr 21, 2009 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
See, that’s the kinda bs that I’m referring to right there. I would never hope to end anyone’s career no matter the circumstances. That’s what many folks from other areas think of as “typical” Philly mentality. How many Eagles fans probably hope for a career-ending injury to their own QB?
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dude
My Pens fan friend has said the same thing about Flyers players. This type of mentality doesn’t only pertain solely to Philly fans, regardless of what you believe.
But it’s wrong, no matter who supports the notion. I don’t want anyone’s career ended, but I don’t like this intent to injure stuff. I don’t think the games are fun if they’re being played without the full complement of players. Scott Stevens hit on Lindros was technically clean, but he was obviously trying to remove him from the game and we ended up losing that series. The end doesn’t justify the means IMO.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work for a casino, and I talk to people from all over the country. While obviously there are people with that mentality everywhere, most sports fans that I speak to regardless of where they’re from see a huge difference between the mindset of the Philly fanbase (regardless of sport) and the rest of the country. I’m not entirely sure that it’s justified, but that is the perception. Of course, my results aren’t scientific, just what I hear.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we get a bad rap. Are we worse than other fanbases? It’s arguable. But we’re all sick of the same tired citations.
And even the massive display of respect for Harry the K doesn’t change our image. Instead, Pensblog trashes the legend.
Our reputation probably never will be erased, and while that sucks, I don’t take it as an insult. I take it as, we just go to lengths everyone else is too passive to reach.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 21, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
The Philly fanbase it technically larger, so you’ll run into more by sheer volume, but I’m sure if you spent a lot of time with any NY fans, you’d find the same mentality (esp Ranger/Met/Giant fans). I know I have. It might have something to do with the toughness/grittiness of East Coast cities and the whole “dog eat dog” mentality that prevails there.
Also, it might be that you are more attuned to hearing this because you are looking to hear it. The national media does nothing to assuage this perception, either, by consantly trotting out decades old tired stories about booing friggin Santa Claus at an Eagles game. Sometimes I think certain members of the Philly fanbase just embraced this perception because they don’t want to fight it anymore. And, of course, we have some idiots in our fanbase that go overboard and earn us the reputation. But we aren’t all like that, the same way you’re probably not like the Pens fan who spit at me and my toddler while we were wearing our Flyers gear. I can’t let interaction with a handful of fans color my entire perception of an entire fanbase. That’s called classism.
And perhaps, just perhaps, you’d be a little mad, too if you were constantly called the worst fans in sports while your teams consistently failed year-in/year-out while you packed their respective houses, giving them all your hard-earned cash and fervent support.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points, all. Many people go way overboard showing their “support” for their respective teams. To mock someone’s passing is the the ultimate display of low-class.
I know what you mean about failing teams, I’ve lived through the 70’s and 80’s with the Pens, and the 80’s with the Steelers. Let’s not even mention the Pirates. Good thing I’m not into baseball.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But the Steelers do have 6 rings, the Pirates 5 championships and the Pens 2—contrast that with the Eagles 0 (in the same number of years), the Phillies 2 (Phils have actually been around 8 years longer) and Flyers 2 (in same amount of years)—and Pittsburgh has had a lot more success than we have. We do, however, ROCK in minor league sports, with a billion indoor soccer and MLL titles. Meh.
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s not forget the Philly Soul. Bon Jovi ROCKS! (not being sarcastic, I love 80’s rock/metal!)
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think the AFL will be back? I’m inclined to think not. Philly will be reigning champs! Woo, hoo! /sarcasm
by doubleh on Apr 21, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“while your teams consistently failed year-in/year-out while you packed their respective houses, giving them all your hard-earned cash and fervent support”
a succesfull season is the playoffs in any sport. wake up teams can get hot at the right time and ruin the ones who are “supposed to be” in the championship game.
by oldtimehockey09 on Apr 22, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you clearly have a different definition than the rest of us. We consider the Eagles a failure, seeing as how they only once made it out of the Conference title game despite being there 4 times. Running into 3 hot teams? Or failing? To-mA-toe, To-maa-toe.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 22, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but making the playoffs just isn’t enough for me. There has to be a deep run or at least win a series. Unless it’s baseball, where only 4 teams from each league make it.
When it comes to hockey and basketball, just about everyone makes the playoffs. The Sixers made the playoffs, but they aren’t good enough to win a series, let alone the whole thing. So, no, just making the PO’s is not really all that successful, sorry.
How successful do most die-hard Bills fans consider the 1990’s Bills teams?
by doubleh on Apr 23, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting sources . . .
Grabbed this stuff from the700level:
by flyrsfrk05 on Apr 21, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Watch the video where Ron MacLean grills Colin Campbell. They specifically talk about Carcillo and Flyers. Let me know what you think of Campbell’s rational for suspending Carcillo and not suspending Mike Cammalleri . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Apr 21, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
any one know
where we can find footage from the last 30 seconds of the calgary-chicago game, and all the smack talking afterward the stoppage of the burish cross-check (which was clearly a last ditch message from a team down 2 goals) NHL dot com is suppressing this stuff… no suspension?
by fitzy first on Apr 21, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck
to both teams. See ya on the ice.
by chukrok on Apr 21, 2009 3:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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