Carcillo fight was not a game changer
by Travis Hughes on Apr 27, 2009 12:17 AM EDT
in 2009 Playoffs
21 comments
Much of the hockey-loving public seems to believe that Dan Carcillo's fight with Max Talbot in the early stages of Game 6 yesterday allowed the Penguins to get the boost which led to their five-goal comeback.
The turning point of the game, Flyers up 3-0, Maxime Talbot of the Penguins battles Daniel Carcillo of the Flyers and Penguins go to work from then on.
One of the examples of why fighting needs to stay in the game. This fight had some meaning.
It was a beat-down, for sure. But Daniel Carcillo's fight with Max Talbot while the Flyers were leading 3-0 is being widely credited for sparking the Penguins' rally. He was slammed for it on NBC, and rightfully so.
So, yes. The Flyers were up 3-0 on Danny Briere's power play goal. A few seconds later, Talbot challenged Carcillo to a duel and Carcillo obliged. Was that the smartest move in the world? No. In fact, it was quite dumb. If Carcillo loses, the crowd quiets down and the Pens get a ton of jump. That's the polar opposite of what happened, though. So was the decimation of Talbot's face by Carcillo's fist the reason Pittsburgh went on to score five unanswered goals and end the Flyers season? Hell no.
I'm not a Dan Carcillo fan. I was against his acquistion, I've been against him since he became a Flyer -- perhaps even unfairly -- and to be honest, I'm still bitter that Scottie Upshall is gone. So if I could use Carcillo as a scapegoat for the Flyers season ending loss yesterday, there's no doubt that I would jump on his back faster than anybody.
But it wasn't his fault. He went to town on Talbot's face, and afterwards, pumped up the crowd and his team. NBC commentator Darren Pang, in response to his colleague Eddie Olczyk's verbal attack of Carcillo's decision to fight, said that the Flyers bench had a ton of emotion following the fisticuffs.
How does a beatdown of an opposing player, a shot of adrenaline to a team with everything on the line, and a raucous crowd lead to defensive breakdowns in front of the net that allowed Pittsburgh to score?
It doesn't. But thanks to Olczyk irresponsibly making up his mind on this issue before the fight was even over, and the coincidental Pittsburgh goal shortly afterwards, the wide belief is that Carcillo engaging with Talbot allowed the Penguins to steal the momentum from the Flyers. And even when Pang, who was located at ice level and could feel the energy of the situation more than anybody, brought up a counterpoint to Olczyk's baseless blather, Eddie O decided to ignore it and continue on with his pointless point.
The Flyers lost because they took their foot off the gas and the Penguins capitalized. Pittsburgh, by coincidence, happened to score right after the fight when the Flyers still had the momentum. The goal is what stole it away from Philadelphia, not the fight.
Until that goal, the Flyers looked fine. They failed to clamp down when Pittsburgh had the puck in the crease and it found its way into the net. That's when the momentum shifted, and that's when the Penguins got going. Don't blame Carcillo.
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I agree. I am tired of hearing about this. Although I think the fight had some impact on the game, it was very little and not to the extent the media makes it out to be.
Also, it wasnt Carcillo’s fault. Any of us in his shoes would have done the same thing. Your at home, up 3-0 and Max Talbot challenges you to fight. He had no doubt he was gonna pummel Talbot. It was impossible to resist. Talbot knew it too. I almost think Talbot did it to punish himself for personally letting up that first goal.
Really? Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby are supposed to be two of the best players in the NHL, if they’re really that good they shouldn’t need to see one of their teammates get beat down before deciding they want to play in a series clinching playoff game. That’s just a ridiculous argument, the Penguins won because the Flyers defense didn’t play well, it’s as simple as that.
I agree the outcome had nothing to do with Carcillo. while it wasnt a smart fight, you know every single Flyers fan was pumped to see a great fight after taking a 3 goal lead.
The Flyers lost because as soon as they went up 3-0 they decided to pack it in and save everything else for game 7. Thats on John Stevens and Mike Richards for letting the team think the game was already won.
Yes and No
You’re right about this not being Carcillo’s fault. The Penguins were going to throw everything they had at the Flyers sooner or later anyway. Malkin, in particular, was not going to be denied. Every time he was knocked down, he bounced back up. He would have played that way whether or not the fight happened.
I’d put the blame for this on the team as a whole and not on Richie or John Stevens. Richards is more of a “lead-by-example” guy than a “rah-rah” type. He worked his ass off all series, but he wasn’t very effective for the most part because he was playing hurt. And Stevens didn’t tell the team to quit playing. Inconsistency has been their hallmark this year. If they’re still playing the same way next year, you get a new coach. But right now it’s up to the players to right the ship.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
countdown to july 1st
anyone say cut briere, make a run for hossa? no way he’d play with us though, unless we got manny f or anderson coupled with jaybou.
gaborik is another briere. athough i wouldnt be surprised if homer saw him as a steal depending on how he looks, but no way we outbid Montreal or Toronto.
No.
Hossa is going to re-sign with Detroit if he hasn’t already.
Craig Anderson yes. Manny Fernandez no. Anderson is at least as solid a backup as Niitty – if not more so – and will not cost nearly as much. He didn’t even make 600K this year, as opposed to Niitty and his 2.5M.
Holmgren is going to shore up the defense and goaltending. He’s not going to go after any high-priced forwards. We don’t need scoring. We need stopping.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
carcillo pumped up the crowd
we didnt need any pumping up… we were already pumped, the fight changed our focus and carcillo was individually beckoning for the crowds approval when if fact we should all be concentrating on the score and the team… i think carcillo acted again, stupidly and just wanted some band wagon points while the getting was good… there is no need to fight when you are leading unless its necessary. Even douchebag Avery avoided fighting in the first couple games against the Caps while in th lead… he even knows its unwise to change the energy of the game when things are going right for you
That's true
But the reason you don’t fight with the lead is that you can shift the momentum to the other team. And while it probably would have been better if he hadn’t fought Talbot, what about the flip side? You’re team is up 3-0 at home in Game 6. The crowd is loud. Carcillo beat Talbot’s face in, the crowd is even louder. Theoretically, this should have juiced up the Flyers even more, leading them to a solid win. It should have been the nail in the Game 6 coffin, especially since he won the fight. But it wasn’t.
The point is, you don’t fight with the lead in the playoffs. But Carcillo whooped his ass and fired up the crowd even more. His fight wasn’t the momentum shifter. The shitty shift afterwards, leading to the goal, changed the series.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 27, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah- back to...
the fact that the flyers need to learn how to keep a lead… and not make matters worse with all those dumb penalties from their frustration from the first goal… the ghost pass to the blue line setting up the second goal wasnt a smart play as well. 4-4 hockey should be played defensively when you have a 2 goal lead. i think, who made the pass? briere? had a brain fart, thinking there would be a guy at the point.
MIxed Feelings
I just don’t understand. If after the fight the flyers poured on 2 more goals and then eventually won the series in Seven. Then all the Pittsburg idiots would be saying OMG how could Talbot challenge there toughest guy what an Idiot. Or oh carcillo should be out of the league. And the fight could have put that explantion point on this series. It sucks it didn’t. I could have cared less about the fight. I liked it but I dont think it cost us the series. I think that loss to new york And the overall lack of intensity down the stretch cost us this series. I think ithis team is really good, but just like the old saying in sports they are not good enough to flip a switch and turn it on for the playoffs. the Penquins have that type of team. I dont think they are great but I do believe with that goaltender and those two stars they can take over a series if you sleep on them. and that trend continued. They did the same thing in the washington series last year. They had to go to seven cause they didnt put that team away..
There's no arguing this point...
I tried making this point over at Pensburgh, and at this point, I’ll just be that jackass who antagonizes the other team. I’m done. The generally intelligent people at Pensburgh are convinced Max Talbot clinched this series for them.
No matter how many times I see it, it doesn’t make any sense. You’re down 3-0, you just got your ass beat in a fight, and the crowd is louder now than it was before your face get pounded. Then you put your finger to your mouth? You’re an idiot. Giving credit to Max Talbot is like giving credit to Riley Cote every time he got his ass beat.
A lot of things led to this loss – Malkin, Biron, Stevens, bad passes, lack of effort, etc. – yet the national media and Pittsburgh want to give credit to Max Talbot. Fuck it, go ahead. If it makes you feel better to blame Dan Carcillo, enjoy. But Philadelphia better not fall into that trap, because Dan Carcillo’s fists are not this team’s problem.
by Geoff Detweiler on Apr 27, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions
It’s not logic that makes us choose that moment as the turn of the game.
Talbot shushing the crowd after getting his ass beat can not be translated as anything but stupid, unless the Pens somehow pull off a win. Pens fans were rightly quite nervous at that point. We had just seen 2 games of the Flyers outdoing our Pens, and it looked a third was underway. A game 7 with all the momentum on Philly’s side is a bad time for the Pens.
Then Talbot gets beat up, shushes the crowd and Philly lets in a goal. All of a sudden the Pens get it going and Philly (in our view) falls apart. Talbot’s fight and shushing becomes awesome. His teammates love it, and so do the fans.
Did it affect the game, objectively probably not, but my gut tells me that was the moment. That fight was the last thing that went the Flyers way.
P.S. This is my last visit here till our next playoff meeting. Thank you for being hospitable and clean in our discourse through the series. I now plan to return to referring as Philadelphia as Filthadelphia and will loudly proclaim that your city and team are the worst in the nation. God Bless, and see you next year.
by Phantaskippy on Apr 27, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I tried making this point over at Pensburgh, and at this point, I’ll just be that jackass who antagonizes the other team. I’m done. The generally intelligent people at Pensburgh are convinced Max Talbot clinched this series for them.
There’s a lot of hero worship for Talbot in the first place (myself included)…And while you can look to the fight as a turning point, several Penguins players did cite it as something that fired them up, but a fight doesn’t count as goals. And goals are what wins games.
Also, something that should be pointed out: it’s tough to blame Carcillo when according to the Pens, the Flyers bench was encouraging Carcillo to take that fight. Carcillo may make questionable decisions out there, but this the fight can be pinned on him.
And Carcillo was brought into PHI to do just that (as well as clear cap space). You can’t bring in a fighter to play “good old fashioned Flyers hockey” and then get mad when he plays “good old fashioned Flyers hockey.” PHI proved this year that toughness isn’t everything anymore (if it ever was). They pushed PIT around after the whistle (or tried to), Carcillo beat down Talbot up 3-0. And PIT won the series 4-2.
by Fehr and Balanced on Apr 28, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really
In fact, you all might be surprised to find that the top +/- Flyers player for the series was — can it be? – Dan Carcillo at +3.
Yes I don’t think Carcillo should have taken that fight, and that is a maturation process.
Did it lead to the goal? Not at all. The Pens got a few very important , winning ugly, poking into Biron blindly goals. These are the goals that everyone predicted the Flyers would get, and instead it was the Pens that got em this year, and we should all take off our hats, and congratulate the team, if not it’s more immature fans, on their victory. I laugh as much as the next guy at the Cindy Crosby stuff, but at the end of the day, he’s handled it well, and is showing maturity. I personally don’t care if he complains to the refs on every single play. That’s something he will have to deal with himself, as after a while, the boy who cries wolf becomes very pertinent.
None of that takes anything away from his ability to play hockey, and his performance against the Flyers. If anything, we should be looking inwards and asking now how we got beat, but how did we beat ourselves? I have a little fan post about this, where I elaborated a bit, you might want to check out.
Just to elaborate---
I probably should be a little less wishy -washy. The fight was really ill advised, because the Flyers are a team that wasn’t good with leads the entire year.
At that point in the game, everything was going our way, so the last thing you want to do, is stop the clock, clear the ice of equipment, let the Pens coaches talk and let their stars have a breather. You have a guy on the ropes, with the clock ticking away, and you go punch out the cut man in the corner, because he challenged you? Max Talbot is a guy you actually want out there. You don’t want the stop the energy and the flow, and give the other team time to work up a play, or get a blow, or anything other than keep the clock going, and keep on doing what you’ve been doing.
If Carcillo learns this lesson, he may actually prove himself to be worth something as a Flyer, but it’s a bitter lesson that unfortunately we will all have to share throughout the summer. I only wish he would have realized, as he claimed, that he understood what it means when you come to Philly to play hockey for the orange and black. One thing it means, is that you never need to pump up sleepy fans like you might have to in Phoenix.
Thank you
Thank You Thank You Thank You for not being another idiot blogger that likes seeing his mouth run. The fight had NOTHING to do with the Pens comeback. I admit it came and an odd time and there was very little reason for it, but that was not the catalyst. Nothing but the media bashing an opponent of “Hockey Jesus”
As a pens fan, I agree with you guys
Though Carcillo’s decision to fight may have been ill-advised, it surely could only have helped the penguins so much. (Witness the Shark’s Joe Thornton’s fight against Ryan Getlaff, which had no apparent effect on the game)
The media have attributed way too much to the fight. It may have helped the Pens find some energy, but one lost fight does not equal five goals! Come on.
go pens!
THE REAL REASON ... PERIOD
I WATCHED EVERY GAME AND SCREAMED OR REJOYED AFTER EVERY GAME. IT DOESN’T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE HOW IT ENDED OR WHO WE BLAME. THE FACT IS THE GOALTENDING WAS TERRIBLE. 3 EASY GOAL. PERIOD.. WITH THE CREW THE FLYER HAVE, THEY REALLY COULD MAKE A GREAT RUN FOR LORD STANLEY. NEVER WITH THE GOALIES THEY HAVE NOW… PERIOD .
Sigh
No offense, but I’m surprised that any Flyers fan would choose Scottie Upshall over Dan Carcillo, and it really shows how much Philadelphia hockey (and indeed the entire NHL) has changed (for the worst, IMO). The Flyers won that deal and I think you’ll eventually be pleasantly surprised.
I agree that the fight had nothing to do with the Flyers collapse and I don’t fault Carcillo for engaging in it. It was supposed to be the exclamation point on a huge Flyers butt kicking – It just didn’t turn out that way. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. It’s hockey.
RE: Sigh
Actually, I’m a longtime Flyers fan (1982) who adored Upshall, but was thrilled at the Carcillo acquisition. Upshall plays great when he first joins a team, but then the honeymoon ends and he just looks pretty doing nothing spectacular. As a Tocchet fan, I was watching the Coyotes in 2008 for any glimpse I could get and discovered Carcillo. I realized quickly that he would be a great Flyer one day.
I watched him pound the crap out of various Western Conference foe and I watched him notch a hat trick against the Dallas Stars at the end of the season. He annoyed the Stars’ announcers that day to the point that they nicknamed him the Evil Musketeeer (claiming some resemblance to one of the fabled swordsmen.)
One thing we have to realize about him is that he is impulsive, along the line of the kind of guys we’ve always hated on other teams. But his passion is undeniable. Gretzky could not reign him in but I think with a little time, his childhood team can do so. He’s got talent, don’t be so quick to judge or to say we lost out in that deal. He’ll warm up and Upshall will cool down. He really hasn’t had THAT much time to adjust to Eastern Conference style and his new team.
I don’t mind being his only fan. I remember the days when I was Tocchet’s only fan, too. I’ve never been the bandwagon hopper. Go Carcillo!
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