"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
(DISCLAIMER: I love the Flyers. My earliest memory from my life is my father yelling at them on TV. I have been going to games since the early 1980s, and I will always go as long as I live in Philadelphia. I have always defended them, and I will continue to do so until the day I die, no matter where I live. With that said, I am not writing this to slam Ed Snider, Paul Holmgren, Bob Clarke, Peter Luukko, or ANYONE else involved in the organization. I am also not suggesting that I can do a better job than any of these men do, or have done. As a lifelong fan, I am grateful to root for and support the Flyers. The purpose of this post is to serve as a wake-up call to we, the fans, and to the organization as a whole, because we all want the same thing - a Stanley Cup. However, if we want to succeed, it's time to change our collective approach.)
Like many Flyers fans, I was not happy to see Sidney Crosby raise the Cup last night. However, the Penguins deserved to win because they battled hard and overcame a lot of adversity during the season to get there. Perhaps most importantly, they were correctly built for the job.
Our Flyers, in contrast, are not there yet. The team is generally headed in the right direction but is still missing a few pieces of the puzzle. Fortunately, we have a very solid fan base and an owner who cares. While I may disagree with some of what Ed Snider says and does, I will never question his desire to have a winning team here, nor will I question how much he cares for the city - he's done plenty of good here.
However, I'm more than a little tired of being told what we, the fans, want in a hockey team. We want a team that's going to have a chance to win the Stanley Cup in today's NHL. We do not want to be told that we're going to "love" guys like Daniel Carcillo just because they are tough, and we do not want to bring back former Flyers like Robert Esche for no discernible reason. I thought that these were the hallmarks of Bob Clarke's tenure as GM, but apparently not.
I'm not saying this to rag on Carcillo, Esche, or Clarke. I like Carcillo, and Esche was good when he was here during the "defense first" days of the Inter-Lockouts NHL (1995-2004). But Clarkie made these kinds of trades all of the time, and in my mind they kept us from being true contenders.
Don't get me wrong - I like the fact that the Flyers DO have a history and tradition. I love Philly's reputation as an intimidating city in which to play. I enjoy the "us against the world" mentality that goes along with being a Flyers fan, perhaps best summed up by Joe Watson before the victory against the Red Army in 1976: "Screw the league! We're going to do it for ourselves!" However, it seems to me that this tradition has been getting in the way of building the team for a while now.
It's nice to show loyalty towards players who were once part of the organization. But loyalty only gets you so far. If we bring back a former player who can seeimingly help us to get one step closer to the Cup (as we did with Mark Recchi in 1999) or who can at least keep us afloat for a while (as Vaclav Prospal did last year) then so be it. However, Robert Esche is not that kind of player. Esche was good for us when players were allowed to "clear the porch." The fact that he gave up so many rebounds was not important, because no one would be able to put them in. This was true up until 2005, when the rules changed. In recent years, we saw what happened whenever Martin Biron could not control his rebounds - we usually lost. Having Esche would be akin to having the "rebound-happy" edition of Marty B. No thank you.
As for continually bringing in guys who play "Flyers hockey," where has that gotten us? Let us look at what the Red Wings, Penguins, and Flyers have done in the playoffs over the past 20 seasons, from 1988-89 to the present. Each number represents a number of seasons where each scenario took place. I have bolded appearances in the Conference and Stanley Cup Finals as well as Cup Championships because, to me, that's where contenders go fairly consistently.
Detroit
Did Not Qualify For Postseason Play: 1
Lost in Conference Quarterfinals: 7
Lost in Conference Semifinals: 4
Lost in Conference Finals: 2
Lost in Stanley Cup Finals: 2
Won Stanley Cup: 4
Pittsburgh
Did Not Qualify For Postseason Play: 5
Lost in Conference Quarterfinals: 4
Lost in Conference Semifinals: 5
Lost in Conference Finals: 2
Lost in Stanley Cup Finals: 1
Won Stanley Cup: 3
Philadelphia
Did Not Qualify For Postseason Play: 6
Lost in Conference Quarterfinals: 6
Lost in Conference Semifinals: 2
Lost in Conference Finals: 5
Lost in Stanley Cup Finals: 1
Won Stanley Cup: 0
The Red Wings have made it past the first round 12 times in 20 years. They went to the Conference Finals or beyond 8 of those times, and won the Cup 4 times. The Penguins have made it past the first round 11 times in 20 years. They went to the Conference Finals or beyond 6 of those times, and won the Cup 3 times.
The Flyers have made it past the first round 8 times in 20 years. They went to the Conference Finals or beyond 6 of those times, but did not win any Cups.
We could look at this in a number of ways. Let's start with the good news for the Flyers. When they've won in the first round, they've gotten to the Conference Finals 75% of the time. The Red Wings come in second in this statistic at 66-2/3%, and the Penguins last at 54%. So the Flyers are efficient, but that's been true for most of their history - assuming they make the playoffs, they either lose in the first round or make a run to the Conference or Stanley Cup Finals. (The Flyers, in contrast to Pittsburgh and Detroit, have very few second-round exits.)
But the historical factor is the reason I've looked at these teams through a 20-year lens, which leads us to the obvious bad news. The Flyers organization speaks of playing "Flyers hockey," and they get players who play (or, at some point, HAVE played) "Flyers hockey," and they have no championships since the time "Flyers hockey" was at its peak in 1975. The Red Wings and Penguins, on the other hand, did not have glorious pasts to fall back upon. (The Red Wings did, but their last Cup before 1997 was in 1955, ten years before Steve Yzerman was born.) Therefore, they did not have to worry about drafting, signing, or trading for players who fit a certain mold, and you can see the results above. They're too painful to repeat.
So why is this? Is it the (recently extinguished) "Curse of Billy Penn?" Are the Flyers that behind the times? As I stated before the jump, I do feel that the team is moving in the right direction, talent-wise. It seems to me now that they "get it" and DO understand what is needed to win in today's NHL. But what concerns me is the "one step forward, two steps back" factor that seems to be coming into play again.
In 2006-07, the Flyers had the worst season of their history. During the year and in the offseason, Paul Holmgren vastly improved the team, and in 2007-08 the Flyers made it to the Conference Finals. That's one huge step forward. However, the Flyers stumbled out of the gate in 2008-09, and were maddeningly inconsistent. They either looked like Cup contenders or complete failures, and unsurprisingly lost in the first round of the playoffs. That's a step back, but we can chalk it up to growing pains.
The worst part about last season was that the team severely mismanaged the salary cap. Chemistry was disrupted in the losses of players like Metropolit, Vaananen, and Upshall, and the team had to sign college kids to play in a couple of games down the stretch. And while Holmgren seems to understand what's needed to improve the team, cap issues and free agency have forced him to refurbish the goaltending in a potentially bad way. If we sign Esche, we will have three goaltenders (including Backlund) who were not in the NHL last year. Unless Emery plays well, that is a huge step back.
Fellow Flyers fans, I turn to you for hope and intelligent discussion on this matter. We are all here because we love the Flyers, and we all dream of watching Richards and the boys hoist the Stanley Cup. But will it happen if the organization continues along this trajectory? What needs to change? What needs to stay the same?
Most importantly, what are your thoughts?
This item was written by a member of this blog's community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
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Fantastic Piece.
I’ll start out with my only criticism, cause every kid eats their vegetables first and leaves dessert for last: I wish you would have given more examples at the end of the piece regarding what you are specifically talking about. You mentioned players and moves, but you speak almost entirely in broad terms. What moves really bother you – specifically, what led you to write this – and what do you want done? Other than that, fantastic.
Personally, you’re 20 year table is quite sad. As a long time fan, I was aware of the Flyers 1st round exit or CF run history. It’s one or the other (5 of those 6 missed playoffs were from 89-90 to 93-94.) every year. I did a 10 year that is much more favorable to the Flyers (vs. Pittsburgh anyway) but still reveals something is lacking. These numbers tell a better story, with the asterisk of our fantastic Eagles-like run starting 94-95 to present.
Personally, I don’t think losing Metro was that big (guys like him are a dime a dozen) especially considering how poorly his offensive production was this year. Obviously, I cannot speak to his locker room leadership. Vaananen was a guy I liked. I compare him to Matt Carle, in a good way. (People get on Carle, but relax. He does his job defensively) Vaananen was relatively cheap, provided veteran leadership on a young defense, and blocked a ton of shots. Yeah, he doesn’t have Carle’s offensive potential, but neither score a lot anyway. I think his waiving was a 6-7 on the mistake scale. (Eight if they had somebody asking about Randy Jones, but I digress.) Lastly, Upshall’s departure was of greater importance. Yeah, he’s not going to score 30 goals, but he could easily score 20, he just wasn’t this year. Nor was he getting enough ice time, or given an opportunity to mesh with linemates (Upshall, Giroux, Briere always looked nice, didn’t it?) with Danny’s injury, Giroux’s mid-season call up, and Powe moving up and down the lines. I would rate his trade a solid 7 on the mistake scale. I know that’s ridiculous that Vaananen’s departure is tied, but considering that Upshall was a RFA at year’s end, wasn’t exactly a bargain at his current deal, expected a pay raise, and was still more potential than performance, trading him wasn’t a terrible idea. Yes, it really messed with the chemistry (from what I can tell, it seemed pretty obvious, but again, noone knows for sure) and the second round pick made the trade a steal for Phoenix, but we were in danger of being over the cap. Something had to be done, even if it was done poorly.
Continuing, discussing Clarke’s bad decisions is not worth noting because a) they’re too many in number; and b) Homer is trying to take the team in a new direction. That’s not a knock against Clarke – he tried. And when you’re the GM for that long, your list of accomplishments and failures are many, on both sides. On to Holmgren. His signings:
- Mike Knuble – signed (2 yr/$2.8M) (11/06)
- Sami Kapanen – signed (2 yr/$2.5M) (2/07)
- Martin Biron – signed (2 yr/$3.5M) (3/07)
- Scottie Upshall – signed (2 yr/$1.225M) (5/07)
- Lasse Kukkonen – signed (2 yr/$1.75M) (5/07)
- Antero Nittymaki – signed (2 yr/$2.54M) (6/07)
- Kimmo Timonen signed (6 yr/$6.3M/yr) (6/07)
- Scott Hartnell signed (6 yr/$4.2M/yr) (6/07)
- Bradon Coburn signed (2 yr/$2.6M) (11/07)
- Mike Richards signed (12 yr/$5.7M) (12/07)
- Jeff Carter signed (3 yr/$5M) (6/08)
- Steve Eminger signed (1 yr/$1.2M) (6/08)
- Randy Jones signed (2 yr/$2.75M) (7/08)
- Riley Cote signed (3 yr/$550K) (7/08)
- Joffrey Lupul signed (4 yr/$4.25M) (7/08)
- Danny Briere signed (We all know)
- Jared Ross (minor league)
- Jim Dowd
- Rory Fitzpatrick
- Ossi Vaananen
- Glen Metropolit
Overall, not a bad list. Regardless of trades (Some good – Coburn; Some bad – Upshall), this list shows what direction Homer wants to go in more than trades. With trades, Homer may have wanted somebody else, settled for who he got, or moved someone he had to but didn’t want to, etc. These signings, to me, are generally solid. There are many that stand out as terrible decisions, and they generally show a shift toward skilled players. Also, most are 2 year extensions with a few exceptions. (This is where I wonder about the Timonen deal. 6 years is a long time. I didn’t know he was signed for that long.) Generally, this would be good. However, it has led to many problems.
First, the salary cap. I know it was new, and I know this is Homer’s first job, and I know he inherited a team that finished last in the Conference. However – and I think he would admit to as much – last season was unacceptable. Flexibility is a must, especially considering injuries. We cannot have college kids playing one game (a whopping 5 minutes!) since that helps neither them nor us. Gotta get that fixed.
Second, smart spending. Lupul’s contract is a tad large as is Hartnell’s, Jones is over-paid, and Briere’s contract is too big for too long. These go a long to to preventing solid third and fourth line guys like Upshall, Jiri Hudler, or Max Talbot from being affordable. Hopefully, Homer is now aware of this.
Lastly, I would like to see at least one of those four contracts just mentioned moved. Preferably Briere (pipe-dream), then Jones, then Lupul (only because he would bring more back than Hartnell). Moving those would allow even more money to be saved and spread. Despite a clamoring for Jay Bouwmeester, if his contract is anything like Brian Campbell’s, stay away. That’s another long-term, high price contract that will only tie our hands in 2-4 years. I’d much prefer Komisarek or Beauchemin, or even Rob Scuderi who will be much cheaper. With Sbisa up, and any number of our minor leaguers, defense would then only be a problem if there is an injury. So I vote resign Alberts or Kukkonen as a “In case of emergency” guy.
Having Powe as a third line center, signing another center such as Rob Niedermeyer, Jiri Hudler, Erik Christensen, or Chad LaRose. This is only if Briere can be moved. If he isn’t, there is no need to sign a center with our small amount of cap dollars. (Ross and Matsumoto will do just fine for 3rd or 4th line temporaries.)
If Lupul is traded or Knuble is not resigned, a player in their mold needs to be signed in their place. If Lupul is traded, Giroux will fill that role, but a Scottie Upshall type is needed on the third line. Other options: Colby Armstrong, Drew Stafford, Mikael Samuelsson, Ryan Callahan. (Note: only Samuelsson is a UFA, the rest are RFA) I know they aren’t Upshall, but they are talented wingers who might come cheap, if a pick isn’t too much for most people. Other than that, the right wingers this year aren’t the best if they aren’t named Gionta and Hossa. So this is a place to save money.
Oh, and I don’t like the Esche rumors. I think I’d rather have Munroe than Esche. But there, my preference: 1) Nitty, bad hip willing; 2) Anderson; 3) Clemmensen; 4) Munroe; 5) Boucher; 6) Tellqvist.
Anyway, the Penguins proved that playing as a team, sacrificing your body, being mentally prepared, avoiding mistakes, and burying your chances will get you a Cup. Philly just needs a few minor pieces with some better coaching (Still bitter that Stevens watched Berube draw up the potential-season-saving play, but that’s a whole other topic.)
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That was really long
In short: In order of preference of who I would move: 1) Briere; 2) Jones; 3) Lupul; 4) Hartnell. One of them has to go because their contracts are too much. Not a knock but they all get paid $4+ million per year. Then, if Briere goes, sign a cheap center willing to fight Powe for the third line job – 1) Rob Niedermeyer; 2) Jiri Hudler; 3) Erik Christensen; or 4) Chad LaRose. Use that money to sign a defenseman, but stay away from Brian Campbell-like contract offers to Jay Bouwmeester. If he wants two years at $5 – $5.5 million, okay. If not, sign a Top 4 guy – 1) Mike Komisarek; 2) Francois Beauchemin; or 3) Rob Scuderi – cut Jones, plug in Sbisa and sign Alberts/Kukkonen to be a healthy scratch/injury replacement. Don’t lose both Lupul or Knuble, but if Lupul is traded, sign a relatively cheap RW – 1) Scottie Upshall; 2) Drew Stafford; 3) Mikael Samuelsson; 4) Colby Armstrong; 5) Ryan Callahan. (Only Samuelsson is a UFA though)
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The short answer to your first question
Thanks for the kind words, and you’re right, I should have been clearer. This piece is not aimed at any particular player, free agent signing, or trade. I’m looking at the team through the lens of “Flyers Hockey,” and I’m considering its worth in today’s game, where teams who are NOT playing “Flyers hockey” are dominant.
This is something I’ve been thinking about for a while now, but my thoughts REALLY kicked into high gear when we lost to Detroit in March. I saw how they played as a team, and it really gave me an insight into their success. I thought, “Wow, the Red Wings are really with the times here. They obviously know what it takes to win; they have a busload of talent and can fit it all under the salary cap; etc., etc., etc. Why can’t the Flyers build a team like this?”
This feeling built and built during the playoffs, as I saw Detroit get to the Finals again, and as I saw Pittsburgh beat everyone by playing a similarly aggressive, uptempo, puck-possession game. Again, I thought, “This is obviously the kind of game one needs to play in order to succeed in today’s NHL. Why aren’t we doing this?”
The final nail in the coffin was when I heard about the discussions with Esche yesterday. I thought about the many times the Flyers had brought back old teammates, as well as the many times we’ve traded for “Flyers-type” players. Then I thought about what this had done for us. I knew we hadn’t won in a while, but the 20-year view really brought some things to light. (I looked at 20 years instead of 10 to show that we, like Pittsbugh, went through our really rough stretches, but we have no Cup to show for it, unlike them. Whenever they were horrible, like they were in the early 1980s and early 2000s, they eventually built Cup winners out of it. We have not done so.)
As I said, I think the team is headed in the right direction talent-wise, and I know Homer is really trying to get all of the pieces to fit. But I’ll write more later. Thanks again for reading and for your own insight.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 14, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More of my response...
Personally, I don’t think losing Metro was that big (guys like him are a dime a dozen) especially considering how poorly his offensive production was this year. Obviously, I cannot speak to his locker room leadership.
The latter is what I was talking about. Metro’s skill set was/is easily replaceable, but he was very popular in the locker room, as were Upshall and Vaananen. To lose three guys like that late in the season is not good. But we definitely missed Metro’s faceoff skills in the playoffs. He might have made a difference for us in that series, because we would not have had to chase the puck as much as we did.
Vaananen was a guy I liked. I compare him to Matt Carle, in a good way. (People get on Carle, but relax. He does his job defensively.)
I have no problem with Matt Carle, and I think he will continue to improve here. I think the Coburn-Carle pairing is going to be a very good one for us.
Upshall’s departure was of greater importance. Yeah, he’s not going to score 30 goals, but he could easily score 20, he just wasn’t this year.
Upshall was clutch. He was not a big scorer, but he scored when we needed goals the most. He scored the series-winner against Montreal in 2008. He scored the Flyers’ 4th goal during our 6-5 comeback win over the Hurricanes. He broke a one-all tie against New Jersey, giving the Flyers the lead late in the game (which they would relinquish thanks to Biron). He scored key insurance goals in January victories over Minnesota and Toronto. Every goal he scored was important, and quite frankly you cannot place a value on that. The same could be said for another cap victim – R.J. Umberger.
Continuing, discussing Clarke’s bad decisions is not worth noting because a) they’re too many in number; and b) Homer is trying to take the team in a new direction. That’s not a knock against Clarke – he tried. And when you’re the GM for that long, your list of accomplishments and failures are many, on both sides.
I should have been clearer here, too. I agree that Homer is definitely trying to take the team in a new direction, and I agree that Clarkie tried. (His inability to get the job done during the Lindros Era was due to a lack of team depth, which was partly his fault and partly was not.) I only tied the Clarke Era into this because of our more recent transactions and dealings with Carcillo and Esche, respectively – those who play, and played, “Flyers hockey.” Essentially, I’m wondering aloud whether or not someone higher up than either Clarke or Holmgren has any say in team transactions. (I’m not accusing Ed Snider or anyone else of forcing the GM’s hand. These deals may pan out like they do purely as a result of the team culture or history; I don’t know.)
I do agree that Homer has done a pretty good job overall; he’s not the only GM who has had to adjust to the salary cap. My only real beefs with him are the size of Briere’s contract and the continued presence / waste of money that is Lasse Kukkonen. I think that Alberts should be the “emergency” guy here, as he generally played well all season long. Kukkonen did well during the 2008 playoffs, but this season he reminded everyone why Chicago gave up on him in the first place. Let him walk so his salary can be used to improve the team in other ways.
Speaking of which…
In short: In order of preference of who I would move: 1) Briere; 2) Jones; 3) Lupul; 4) Hartnell. One of them has to go because their contracts are too much. Not a knock but they all get paid $4+ million per year. Then, if Briere goes, sign a cheap center willing to fight Powe for the third line job – 1) Rob Niedermeyer; 2) Jiri Hudler; 3) Erik Christensen; or 4) Chad LaRose. Use that money to sign a defenseman, but stay away from Brian Campbell-like contract offers to Jay Bouwmeester. If he wants two years at $5 – $5.5 million, okay. If not, sign a Top 4 guy – 1) Mike Komisarek; 2) Francois Beauchemin; or 3) Rob Scuderi – cut Jones, plug in Sbisa and sign Alberts/Kukkonen to be a healthy scratch/injury replacement. Don’t lose both Lupul or Knuble, but if Lupul is traded, sign a relatively cheap RW – 1) Scottie Upshall; 2) Drew Stafford; 3) Mikael Samuelsson; 4) Colby Armstrong; 5) Ryan Callahan. (Only Samuelsson is a UFA though)
and
Oh, and I don’t like the Esche rumors. I think I’d rather have Munroe than Esche. But there, my preference: 1) Nitty, bad hip willing; 2) Anderson; 3) Clemmensen; 4) Munroe; 5) Boucher; 6) Tellqvist.
For the most part, I agree with your assessments. I think if we are going to go out and get a role player or two, they should be solid ones who can help the team for a couple of years (i.e., not old-ass Rob Niedermayer). As for the goalie, I’ve been a cheerleader for Craig Anderson for God knows how long, now. I think every time there’s been a thread about the Flyers’ goaltending, I’ve written “Sign Anderson!” But I’d take most of those guys over Esche, too.
As for a defenseman, that’s a good call about J-Bouw. If we could sign him to three-four years at 5.5-6 million I’d take it. But in order to do so, we will have to move a contract or two. It’s inevitable. Heck, we’d probably have to do it regardless of who we sign. It will be interesting to see.
Philly just needs a few minor pieces with some better coaching (Still bitter that Stevens watched Berube draw up the potential-season-saving play, but that’s a whole other topic.)
In fairness to Berube, he did a fine job as special teams coach this year. Weren’t we the only team in the NHL to finish in the Top Ten for both Power Play and Penalty Kill?
My larger concern is with Stevens. He is well prepared for games, and his players like him. However, his system is more passive and adheres to traditional hockey wisdom. This would be fine if every other team were playing like this, but they are not. All we’ve heard about all season long was the ability of one team to “take time and space away” from their opponents… You know, like the Red Wings and Penguins did in the playoffs. No wonder they both got to the Finals.
The Flyers are not as fast as Pittsburgh or Detroit, but they are not slow either. They can certainly operate in a similar unified fashion to those teams (i.e., moving up and down the ice as a unit as opposed to standing around 30 feet away from one another). In fact, they have the talent play the exact same system as Pittsburgh and Detroit. Since this system is obviously the formula for winning in today’s NHL, I’ll ask one last time…
Why aren’t they doing it?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 14, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In somewhat of a different direction. I would like to comment on the idea that the Flyers are somewhat “behind the times” here. I think that you mentioned something that I have been considering for a while. I dunno if this is what you meant Mike, but here’s how I see it:
It truly baffles my mind that the Flyers can have the second-highest regular season winning percentage all-time in the NHL and have not won a cup while Detroit has won 4 and NJ has won 3. I have no explanation for it and its frustrating (obviously). I do take a lot of pride in that the Flyers are year in and year out among the groupings of elite teams and have been that way for the better part of their existence. That is a pretty damn good tradition to follow. The Flyers may not have been one of the Original Six, but they have an incredible history and tradition that, rightfully so, has been built on and followed. And why not? That tradition includes hard work and (very) tough play partnered with grit, skill and teamwork. To me, that is the embodiment of how hockey should be played and some of the most important keys to success. It has worked very well, one might say, as the Flyers are, as has been mentioned, one of the most consistently elite teams in hockey history. But, the ultimate trump card is played when we look at the 0 in the column of recent Stanley Cup championships. Its hard to knock the Flyers organization because they have done what they thought would bring us the Stanley Cup, but at the same time we have yet to win the Cup. Changes need to be made and things done differently, which is part of what, I think (not to put words in your mouth), you are harping on Mike. I am with you . . .
I think the Flyers are somewhat caught in limbo. What I mean by that is they are trying to maintain the traditional aspect of what Flyers hockey is in a league that has changed. I don’t really have an excuse for why the Flyers did not win the Stanley Cup in the ’90’s and early 2000’s except they were just unlucky. There is no doubt in my mind that the Flyers were good enough to but found themselves in a league with teams such as the Red Wings during their Yzerman years, New Jersey with Brodeur in goal and other teams like the Foresberg/Sakic led Avalanche. This is not an excuse, but I feel like talent is somewhat more spread out these days and those were some incredible hockey teams. Imagine today’s team in the late 90’s without cap problems.
Now, we are looking at a league that has evolved considerably. Notice that in the 4 years since the NHL Lock-Out in ‘04-’05 we have had 4 different Cup winners. It is really hard to repeat (despite the Red Wings’ best effort, which for the sake of hockey’s integrity, was not good enough) and shows that teams are still trying to adjust to the New Rules and regulations the league has in place. I think that the Flyers are one of those teams. And this is the limbo that I mentioned. I feel like one of the Flyers biggest struggles has been their inability to adjust to the “new” NHL. With the Flyers, there is always the tradition of Flyers’ hockey that is in the back of the organizations mind, which isn’t bad necessarily, as I said before. But, I think there are aspects of what the Flyers are doing that are outdated and think that the Flyers brass need to tweak and adjust their goals, updating them a bit, and starting to recreate/redefine what Flyers hockey is for the current era.
I think there is a healthy way of connecting to the Flyer tradition that runs so deep with all of us but at the same time evolve and adapt so that we can add onto that Flyers legacy. Maybe getting away from whats been the “typical” Flyers approach/mentality/persona is what will bridge the gap from merely making the playoffs to hoisting the cup and rubbing Crosby’s greasy fingerprints that have defiled the Holy trophy we all desire so badly.
. . . However, I am still trying to find out what this would look like.
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 15, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with what you said, and I had been hoping that “Flyers Hockey” in this decade (and going forward) would be less Riley Cote and Dan Lacroix and more Scottie Upshall and Mark Recchi. Pittsburgh won this year with three good-great centers, and a bunch of role players on the wings. Kunitz, Talbot, Cooke, Kennedy, and Dupuis are all guys with skill who hit (Cooke with a little less skill than the rest.) That’s what I wanted the Flyers to be. But instead, we get Aaron Asham (who I like, but isn’t who I want), Carcillo, Cote, etc. I really think this team needs more guys willing to go into the corner, make a hit, and get the puck. It almost, almost seems like the Flyers don’t have enough of those guys or don’t have guys who consistently want to do that. I think this team needs to find players like Upshall and Kunitz (as I said above) to compliment all of our skill guys (Gagne, Richards, Carter, Lupul, Briere, Giroux) since someone has to set the stage for physicality.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cote
Carcillo and Asham actually have some hockey skill. Neither is on the level of a Chris Kunitz, who is more akin to Scott Hartnell (PFW who can score 20+ goals). But at least Danny and Arron can play somewhat. I think we’ll see more out of Carcillo this year.
But what does Riley Cote bring? Courage? Bravery? Fisticuffs? That’s all well and good, but that doesn’t win you anything. Dave Schultz was a 20-goal scorer during the first Cup season. Craig Berube started out just like Riley Cote, but over time he evolved into a reliable defensive forward. But it seems like Riley is a purely “energy” guy, which doesn’t go too far in today’s game.
Overall I agree; no more “Dan” lines, please.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 15, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Penguins Hockey
Pittsburgh won because they were so bad for so long and got top draft picks for being so bad. On top, they received Crosby in an “interesting” lottery after the lost season.
As well, many of their role players are so young that they have not received their pay day yet. That usually comes after you win a cup (should happen soon). In the meantime they were not strapped by the cap to cut anyone, yet add solid players like Guerin and Kunitz.
No one wanted to see the part time fans across the state win the Cup but unfortunately they did.
Red Wings, solid organization for a long time, if we are going to learn anything from another franchise, lets learn it from them. Build from within, scout Europe like no on else and cross your fingers that your goalie can come up big in the playoffs.
by boknows71 on Jun 15, 2009 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Pittsburgh won because they were so bad for so long and got top draft picks for being so bad.
I agree 100%. Pittsburgh drafted guys like Mario and Malkin because they have seasons like this and this, respectively.
But again, that’s why I looked at the teams through a 20-year window. Twice, the Pens have gone through absolutely horrid stretches and come out as champs. That happened to the Flyers at the beginning of their existence but never since.
I agree that Detroit is the model franchise overall here, not Pittsburgh. Still, the Pens must be doing something right.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 15, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pittsburgh Penguins: The Florida Marlins of hockey.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds about right.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 15, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having guys like Malkin, Fleury, Crosby, and Staal, who were all top 2 picks in the draft definitely helps.
by FredEx on Jun 15, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True for the current champs.
But thinking back to the Pens teams who won in the early 1990s, they were built by trades as much as through the draft. They traded for guys like Barrasso, Francis, Coffey, and Mullen.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 15, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, that was solely for this current Pens team. I’m 22, so my memory for the early 90’s is pretty nonexistent.
I think we’re definitely getting away from Flyers hockey. Yes we have some tough, scrappy forwards, but our Defense has a lot of strong skaters. We don’t have slow physical guys like Hatcher back there. I truly think we’re probably only consistent goal tending (albeit easier said then done) away from a legit title shot. I don’t think we’re that far away from a Pittsburgh or Detroit team.
by FredEx on Jun 15, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I think we’re a system away from being in that group. I think we could have gone to the Finals with Biron, but only if the 18 guys in front of him played as a group. Instead, we left our defensemen to shake off their forecheckers rather than helping them out consistently, then we’d have guys not where they need to be, etc. I’m not saying Stevens is awful, but I do think the biggest difference between Pittsburgh/Detroit and us is the coaching and not anything/anyone that is actually on the ice.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, coaching is the difference. Look at where the Pens were in the standings before they fired Therrien. Stevens by all accounts is well liked by his players, but I don’t think his system works to the strengths of his players, much like Therrien with the Pens.
I also think it would be beneficial for the Flyers to have a coach that is a little tougher on them for playing lackadasical hockey or taking stupid penalties.
by doubleh on Jun 15, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah. I agree completely. I thought when he was hired, he would be a great fit for this team. Not a push over, but not Hitchcock either. I only hope that he becomes or they find someone as perfect for this team as Cholly is to the Phils.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 15, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the words
Flyers Hockey. Let’s just play hockey and do it well and we will party like our lives depended on it afterwards.
by boknows71 on Jun 16, 2009 8:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
just play hockey like...
the pens? jersey… carolina? name any expansion team…
all those teams took the flyers playbook from the past a long time ago. which is a solid goalie and plenty of toughness, speed and scoring.
maybe you’re saying we should play like the pens, which is sacrilegious… but hey, what’s the one thing missing from ‘flyers hockey’? solid goaltending me thinks…
by fitzy first on Jun 16, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, just good hockey, not like any team in particular
Solid D (need B-meester or Komicarek) plus the young talent we already have and Kimmo (stud). I think our O is Cup-worthy especially if we keep Briere and he plays a full season with talent on his line and on the PP.
Goaltending- we’ll see, I’m as interested as you to find out
We are plenty tough, we have the toughest C in the game. I don’t think we need Cote, Asham and Carcillo to prove that we are. There has to be a player with more talent than them out there. My vote would be to lose Cote, he’s the best fighter but the least talented offensive player. I think Carcillo can be a 20 goal scoring threat on the right line. Maybe he’ll take up the mantle for Lupul if he doesn’t resign.
by boknows71 on Jun 16, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carcillo is actually a much better fighter than Cote and, as you said, actually has some skill. I have no doubt that they will ditch Cote, sending him down to the Phantoms or something. I think if guys like Carcillo and Asham could focus on grinding in the corners and get reallly good at cycling they could be huge additions of our puck procession game as well as productively eat ice time in the offensive zone instead of chasing the puck in the defensive zone. I think they actually have some skill and would be able to create chances as well as giving guys like Richards and Carter a break w/o fear of a huge defense letdown.
I just think that Carcillo needs to be reined in. He shouldn’t be allowed to skate around punching and elbowing people. I mean, I love the rough stuff as much as the next drunken canuck but he does actually have to contribute to the team offensively/defensively/both haha.
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 16, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea I am with fitzy first. As I said there is a lot of importance in playing Flyer Hockey because I was the one who brought up the topic [refer to my above post]. I just think that we need to adapt Flyers Hockey to the “new” league (…the rules, cap system, overall change in speed). We can still be the Flyers; that team is tough and will beat you up but win at the same time. I think its funny how the Broad Street Bullies are always refered to regarding rough/tough hockey, yet the Broad Steet Bullies were not just a team of goons. They were the best hockey team all around. They won two Stanley Cups! People don’t mention that. When I say Flyers Hockey it refers to that incredible winning tradition we have coupled with not sacrificing being tough and intimidating. For goodness sakes, THIS IS HOCKEY! Toughness is as much apart of the fabric of the game as Canada and the Stanley Cup!
The Flyers originated mean winning hockey over 40 years ago and there is a way of adapting it into today’s hockey. At least the Flyers have a unique tradition of hockey to build on unlike, well lets see, almost every other team.
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I meant by "Flyers hockey..."
Again, I have no issue with the team playing tough. I’m actually very much in line with what flyrsfrk05 is saying above here… we need to adapt our “Flyers hockey” mentality to today’s game. In other words, how can we still be The Flyers and succeed in today’s NHL? This is why I asked in my original post, “What needs to change? What needs to stay the same?”
We seem to agree that, for the most part, the Flyers have done a good job. That much needs to stay the same. Here’s what I think needs to change about “Flyers hockey” to succeed:
1. Change the coaching system.
2. Get some Russian players in here. At the very least, get a bit more of a “European” feel to the team.
I don’t have to explain point number 1. We need to move up and down the ice as a unit, take time and space away from our opponents, and do more than simply playing positional hockey. Definitely keep the fundamentals strong, but play more aggressively. Force opponents to make (hopefully bad) decisions with the puck, and generate scoring chances that way IN ADDITION to our normal strength at cycling the puck in the offensive zone. If we can do this with our current players, we should improve.
As for point number 2, our team is all Canadian and Finnish, with a few Americans here and there. That’s all well and good, but the most successful teams have a solid European influence as well. We’ve had our share of talented Swedes and Finns here over the years. Let’s get some more. And for the love of God, they must be doing something right in Russia so let’s try to bring some Russian players on board. Who are the best players in the league right now? Datsyuk, Malkin, Ovechkin. Who is supposedly the next big star goalie? Varlamov. Notice a trend?
My point is that hockey is a global game, now more than ever. It seems like the Flyers are trying to move in this direction through the draft, which is great. Let’s keep doing it and hopefully we’ll make headway sooner than later.
To sum up: I’m very proud of our winning tradition, our history, and everything it means to be a Flyers fan. The further this discussion goes, I’m seeing that we need to make some adjustments which seem stark now but, in the grand scheme of things, are pretty minor. Still, they need to be made so that “Flyers hockey” can once again be something for other teams to emulate.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 16, 2009 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think number 2 is a bit of an over reaction. Yes, Russia has pumped out some great talent. But talent is the important thing. Its not like we’ve been completely ignoring non-North American talent. It doesn’t matter if a guy is foreign or not. If you find guys like Richards and Carter or a Toews, Kane, Fleury, Price, the Staals, you’re in good shape. And when you’re not picking really high in the draft its harder to bring in top tier talent. You can get fast crafty players like Giroux without going overseas.
I don’t disagree that much, and I don’t think you’re down on our players and drafts, I just think you may have overstated your case.
by FredEx on Jun 16, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup.
You know, I spent a while writing / proofreading / editing this piece before I posted it. I should have done the same with my comments.
I am overstating my case a little, you’re right. And you’re right that I’m not being down on our players and drafts either. Talent is what matters, and we’ve got talent. However, while the Flyers aren’t a slow team, I do wish we had some better skaters.
The main difference between North American and European players seems to be in skating ability. I am assuming this is a by-product of there being more “international” (200 × 100) rinks in Europe than here, but I could be wrong. Pittsburgh only has 4 European players: 2 Czechs (Satan / Sykora), 1 Russian (Malkin), and 1 Ukrainian (Fedotenko). However, they can be a good skating team when they want to be, as they were in the playoffs.
Detroit has been a great skating team for years now, both in and out of the playoffs, and look what they’ve got: 8 Swedes (Ericsson, Franzen, Holmstrom, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Lilja, Samuelsson, Zetterberg), 4 Czechs (Hossa, Hudler, Kindl, Kopecky), 2 Finns (Filppula, Leino), and 1 Russian (Datsyuk). Save for Osgood and Rafalski, that’s the core of their team and then some. They won the Cup in 2008 and probably would have won this year if they weren’t so banged up.
But I’m starting to agree more and more with everyone who says that ultimately, it’s about the system. If players are allowed to play to their strengths, they’ll be successful. If Detroit’s players played our more “textbook” system they wouldn’t get very far; however, they play a completely different style and are in the running for the Cup every year.
The Flyers’ system will definitely change if Stevens is let go. If/when that happens, we need to be sure that we have players who are adaptable to the change. Maybe we’ve already got most of who we need but just don’t know it yet…
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 16, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should be a stronger skating team with Giroux, a healthy Briere and Sbisa.
You can always make upgrades but I think the players are good enough. . Probably a defensemen to add, figure out the goalies situation, and thats about it depending on who resign or trade. Then try to get a working system going, execute, and have solid goaltending and we’re good. Not those things are easy to do, but yeah.
by FredEx on Jun 16, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goalies
In case Emery doesn’t work out, and in case Ericsson isn’t ready yet, here are next season’s UFA and RFA goalies. There are some interesting names on this list.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 16, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And, just for the hell of it...
… The Flyers’ UFA/RFA list after next season, not counting Emery of course.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 16, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Next off-season should be a good time. Can’t Rathje just retire now and let the Flyers use that money for something relevant?
by FredEx on Jun 17, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a mouth-watering list…
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 18, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The goalies.
I’d love to see Hiller or even Rinne in orange and black… not so much Jose Threeorfour or Vesa Toskala. Luongo would cost too much, and Nabokov can’t get it done in the playoffs.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 18, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. However, the Sharks can’t get it done in the playoffs, Nabokov is just one piece of that Terry Murray quote
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 19, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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