Offseason
by bak8976 on Jun 16, 2009 11:55 PM EDT
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PrintI'm just looking to get some input from the rest of the folks here. As the offseason has officially started for the Flyers (Emery deal), I wanted to throw out some suggestions and some criticism.
First off, I've read a lot of posts around the web at various sites and it seems that many feel the Flyers would be better suited bringing in more talented players (which ideally is a great idea, don't get me wrong but in a cap economy can you afford to cut the cap space) without addressing the real problem, WE NEED VETERANS. Watching the playoffs should have been the greatest indication of were the Flyers were truly lacking. Last year we countered teams with grizzly vets who understood the beating of the playoffs in Jason Smith and Derian Hatcher, the most under-appreciated player in the history of the Bullies in Sami Kappenan (a do-it-all sort of indispensable glue guy) and Mr. Faceoff himself Jimmy Dowd (who also was a wonderful cheater in the corners but, more on that later). This year we had no such depth, our third and fourth lines were devoid of this kind of character, whereas a team such as the Penguins lined up Billy Guerin (has certainly lost a step but not his hands) Rusty Fedetenko, Miroslav Satan and Petr Sykora, among others. The lack of depth veterans killed the Flyers because around the playoffs these guys give the jump and the knowledge to the frontline playmakers, little of that was there.
As far as moves I'd like to see for the orange and black, it's obvious that two are likely not to happen. J-Bo is not coming here, not only are his contract demands going to try to break the bank, I truly believe he has his heart set at going home to Edmonton. Second, no matter how hard we try (and reportedly we are) Danny Briere is not going anywhere. He'll be our huge contract to deal with for the foreseeable future, his heart and age are a disadvantage to any team we look to trade him to. Now could a possible move of a Joffery Lupul or even a Jeff Carter (he's been up before and his stock may never get higher) happen, highly unlikely but anything is possible. While Carter looks to have established himself as a premier goal scorer (next year will really cement his status), Lupul is the GM's dream, a player who oozes potential and if made in their system would make that GM look like a genius. His value is probably going to only net a 2 or 3rd pairing d-man, so one really has to scouring the market and see if there exists a true upgrade to a 25 year old 25+ goal scorer.
I never really put much into the draft from a fans perspective as the players are usually never available immediately, so I'll just look at the breakdown of the team. The goaltending situation is still a mystery, even with the Emery signing there has been murmurs about a trade for an established goalie (though none of the sites mentioned who). I'm not sold completely that he is the answer but for now he looks to be all we have.
The defense is an interesting unit, as everyone certainly knows the ability of Kimmo but with guys due to mature even more, we may not be in need of a J-Bo type d-man. Braydon Coburn progressed nicely with his play in the d-zone but his lac k of offensive production left much to be desired, look for much more while he transitions into the true top pairing defenseman we need next to Kimmo. Matt Carle took his lumps early and often but started to cut down a great deal on his mental mistakes in the defensive zone, specifically his passes on the boards and by the end of the season and through our playoff disappointment was arguably our best defenseman. Randy Jones gets the raw end of the deal around here, with a hip injury most of his mobility was taken away, and while that is not to say he is the next coming of Nicky Lidstrom, his can be a competent 4th or 5th d-man (the '08 playoffs). Parent took his lumps often as he returned after his injury and never seemed to get it started. He made a ton of mental mistakes later in the season (a reason for a good, solid veteran d-man) Luca Sbisa will probably compete for a position that Alberts vacates but the move I'd love to see would be the orange and black going interdivsion and stealing away Scuderi from the Pens. I was crushed last year not to have us at least attempt to sign Orpik (the best d-man in the Cup and a top in the league) but Scuderi would seem to be able to give a more reasonable cap hit (although agents are nuts). Overall, the defense is in a growing position with many younger guys trying to gel together and as my theme has been get a vet or two and let them help the kids out.
The offense had a great year last year but it showed it's youth in the second season. Lost puck battles? Check. Took dumb penalties? Check. Lost way too many faceoffs? Check. All the more reason good veterans need to populate the 3rd and 4th lines of the team. Guys like Jimmy Dowd, who could clutch and grab so bad in many a jurisdiction it's considered assault. Mikal Sammuelson, Johhny Madden (Richards on the top line and Madden on the fourth, could you imagine) Mike York, guys who can do the grind and help the team prosper. I'll throw my one favorite of all the to be free agents, Juri Hudler, to me a Kapenan clone and very possible a free agent to be (if Hossa signs he's almost automatically squeezed out). Now, I'm not saying only these guys, far from it, I'd just like to see a guys who can boost the system with talent and experience, not Dan Carcillo and Riley Cote to populate the fourth line. Any comments and critiques are welcome.
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Veterans, yes...
… so long as they are not overused during the season. A veteran face-off guy and a veteran defensive specialist would do quite nicely.
To elaborate on my above point: The Flyers as a group were pretty banged up heading into the playoffs, but Mike Knuble really looked to be a step slow for a while. Stevens used him on the top line during even strength, on the power play, and on the penalty kill with Jeff Carter. That’s too much for a 37-year-old. If the veterans we get are older players, Stevens will have to use them more judiciously.
Good call on Carle. He had a great playoff series, and I’m looking forward to what he’ll bring to the table this year. Coburn had a bit of a sophomore slump last year (his second full season in the league) and should bounce back nicely. Jones will be healthy AND he’ll have Contract-Year-Itis since he’ll be a UFA at season’s end. He’ll do his best to look good.
Briere is staying put, most likely. That won’t necessarily be a bad thing unless he’s hurt all year long again. And if you ditch either Lupul or Carter, go with Lupes. Carter is Rick MacLeish to Mike Richards’ Bobby Clarke. Lupes for a skilled defensive defenseman would be a fine deal.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Issues
1) Dan Carcillo is almost to a fault the kind of player you’re describing — gritty, not particularly talented at anything but never shies from contact and grind, and not un-talented at anything (and, if you look at each of the players you described minus Guerin + those guys that are FO specialists, that is exactly what you are describing)
2) Our players were certainly inexperienced, and I think the fact that they’re now a year older means we’re basically automatically acquiring 20-odd veterans for next year’s team.
3) Danny Briere is almost exactly the kind of player you want to grab — a gritty veteran who knows the playoffs. Agreed, he’s not a defensive whiz, but he’s been through the playoffs and plays through injuries and puts up almost a point a game. He’s only an albatross in that we don’t need that point-a-game player as expensive as him as much as we need a guy that can shut down the other team’s point-a-game player. I.e., we’d be better served giving that $6.5m to another Kimmo Timonen ($6.5 is about how much he earns too) than we would be to Danny Briere. But that’s not a bad problem to have, since it’s about the net goal differential. Yes, we want a better defense, and reducing our GA is more important than increasing our own GS this off-season, but if we can’t do that then it’s not a massive loss as far as total wins (playoffs and otherwise — PIT scored 1 fewer goal than we did, and same amount of GA as we did) goes.
4) We’ve been mentioned in conjunction with Carey Price, whom I would be absolutely elated to get. If this requires a 1st round pick + Lupul, I’d be happy to oblige (and that’s been the rumored asking price). I disagree that 1st round picks are valueless from a fan perspective, since if you think we’re not going to see immediate returns from our picks you should ignore all contributions from Gagne, Richards, Carter, and Sbisa (just a few of recent Flyers 1st rounders).
I do agree with the following:
1) We do need more vet depth, but I’m not sure we have the cap space to acquire it. Nevertheless, a Metropolit & Vaananen type would have come in very handy in the playoffs. Sad that we had to lose them.
2) I like Jiri Hudler, but he’s not a Kapanen type, he’s really an offensive whiz QB type who sets up many DET points even if he doesn’t always show up in the scoresheet. Defensively, he’s no better than Lupul.
3) If we want to get more top defensive talent, it will have to come at the expense of offensive talent. I don’t think we can afford to trade Carter, who’s a 2-way-superstar, and I don’t want to trade Lupul, who’s a budding star still, and currently no one wants Briere for too much. If we are satisfied with Parent, Timonen, Coburn, and Carle, and the jury is still out on Jones, the best thing we could do is take the money saved by not signing Biron, drop Jones, allow Sbisa his chance, and sign a Komisarek or top-4 defensive type to relieve pressure on Parent and allow him to dominate more inferior competition (rather than struggle vs opposing 1st lines) for a year or two to get his feet wet.
Nice to hear
Look Danny is a vet but he is certainly not a gritty guys who knows how to win a cup, few premium quality free agent guys are. He’s a very talented player who really has no position on the team and the division, he’s just too damn small.
On Carcillo, all the guys I’m talking about bring knowledge, skill, leadership, and years of playing at higher levels than Carcillo can hope for.
The first round picks thing, those are just a sampling of the very few we will every get to see or will ever even have, might I remind you of Joni Pikten, John-Marc Pelltier and Jeff Wywowitka, all first rounders who blew up in our face. The value to win now should never be outweighed by the future, in my opinion.
Thanks for the comments, I love when people add something.
Pitkanen & Woywitka
are both key components of their current teams, Woywitka being a grinding faceoff guy and Pitkanen being a solid all-around D who can QB the powerplay.
Basically what the crux of your argument is you want guys who are slow and big. That’s perfectly reasonable for the old NHL, but the new one just ain’t like that. You can survive with a couple if they have other great traits (Knuble = Guerin, for example), but it’s silly to expect to fill your team with Derian Hatchers & Bill Guerins and expect to win. For the 3rd and 4th line? I’d love me 6 Mike Knubles for those lines. Or 6 Billy Guerins. It’d cost us $18m to do so, which is not feasible, but I would love to have that kinda veteran leadership. Nevertheless, if you look at who actually won the cup for the Pens, it was a few key players:
1) Evgeni Malkin, not yet 25
2) Sidney Crosby, not yet 25
3) Max Talbot, age 25
4) Marc-Andre Fleury, age 25
5) Jordan Staal, not yet 25
6) Tyler Kennedy, not yet 25
And the players you mentioned. That’s a lot of young players, sprinkled with a couple vets. Is Sergei Gonchar, one of their most valuable, a grind-it-out type? No, he’s an offensive and defensive genius, a lot like Timonen in that regard.
The guys you are talking about tend to have one thing in common: age. They’re all past their prime (which is called a “prime” for a reason). Now, don’t take this to mean I disagree with you; I completely agree that we’d be much better served having a faceoff specialist and defensive type player (like Dowd) on the 4th line or who can go in in important minutes and simply get us the puck, and I’d love for another Knuble type on the LW of our 3rd line (really would make for a dominant 3rd line of Whoever-Briere-Giroux), and if all this comes at the expense of Riley Cote & Dan Carcillo, I’d be elated. I think if you made this same discussion about 5 years into the future you’d be mentioning Carcillo as a gritty vet who just has leadership etc. I also think you’re misguided about height mattering. I’ll point you to www.puckprospectus.com, like this one, which has a pretty significant number of articles relating to height and hockey (including the above). It’s not that it doesn’t matter completely, but it’s overrated. Some big guys are great because they’re big AND fast (like Coburn, Carter, what-have-you), but the hulking big slow guys are now outdated except as fighters on the 4th line, unless they have a particular talent they excel at (Knuble’s absolutely dominant in front of the net, Guerin also, and both have hard shots). It’s not that there is no place for them, it’s just that speed is more important.
Woywitka...
Woywitka being a grinding faceoff guy and Pitkanen being a solid all-around D who can QB the powerplay.
Jeff Woywitka is a minor-league defenseman who played most of the year with St. Louis due to injuries (particularly that of Erik Johnson). He did a fine job, though. Pitkanen seems to have really blossomed into the kind of player we hoped he’d be. His loss is a little tougher to take than that of Woywitka, but then again we’ve got our share of puck-moving defensemen. If you like Lupul, you don’t mind that we’ve lost Pitkanen. If you don’t like Lupul, you miss the hell out of Pitkanen. (I say that because they were essentially traded for one another. We traded Fedotenko to get the draft pick we used to select Pitkanen, and then sent Pitkanen and Sanderson to Edmonton for Smith and Lupul. And meanwhile, Rusty’s since gotten his name on two Stanley Cups.)
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I'm not sure who I was thinking off
but obviously not the correct person. Thanks for the correction
No problem.
I’m sure we’ve given up our share of good face-off guys, too… it’s just that Woywitka isn’t one of them.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
It’s not the height of Briere and Johnny Madden is anything but slow. I’m looking for guys maybe a little past their “prime” (as in the new NHL their is almost no way to get the Pens, unless we all are willing to let the Flyers suck for many years) but they add heart and experience.
Madden is certainly not fast
and, as I mentioned, Briere has as much heart as anyone, playing through injuries etc. And experience. I think those things help, but not at the expense of our exceptional young talent.
Basically agreeing
I think everyone has the same idea about what the club needs, but they differ on how to do it. The payoffs showed that the Flyers need another defenseman, more consistent role players, and a more cohesive system. That seems obvious and undisputed. And a lot of people seem to be clamoring for Detroit’s FAs (me included). The reason for that is also obvious. But it isn’t necessary.
If Knuble can be resigned for cheap, imagine Giroux on the first line, Knuble on the third with Briere and Powe (or Patrick Maroon, a guy I’m looking forward to watching in training camp). Then, our fourth line can be Carcillo, Asham, and a Metro type guy.
And as I’ve said many times before, JBow needs to be forgotten. Seriously. The guy is going to get paid more than Brian Campbell. Eight years for $56.8 million. So Kimmo, Danny, and JBow would all be making more than $6 million, and Carter, Richards, and Gagne making more than $5 million. Not to mention Carle, Hartnell, and Lupul’s $11.75 million combined, nor paying Coburn (UFA next year). There’s $33 million of a roughly $55 million cap in 6 players, $45 million in 9 players. Instead, we should aim for a Komisarek, Beauchemin, or inquire about Kevin Bieksa.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 18, 2009 8:29 PM EDT reply actions
I like Beauchemin.
I also like Steve Montador. My only concern with him is that he seems to get moved around a lot… I wonder if it’s a personality issue? He plays hard, though. He was great for Boston in the playoffs… basically a harder-hitting version of Timonen. Montador does all of the little things right, and in my mind you can’t have enough guys like that on your team.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Good call
I like the forward thinking with Maroon, although I’d have to give him a good 2 years of pro hockey to catch up. I wouldn’t use Giroux so quick on the first line, a banger and net presence like Knubs needs to be resigned (I’ve made the argument). Also, Coburn is a RFA, so we have exclusive rights to negotiate.
Oh, Maroon is nowhere near ready, which is partially why I like mentioning him. He has potential, but he’s not ready yet. Problem is, we don’t have many people better than him right now, showing how shallow we are at NHL-ready talent for wingers.
And I agree that we need to resign Knuble. I like him with Gagne and Richards, but I like Giroux up there next year more for a few reasons:
1) Knuble is getting older and slower. With Gagne and Richards, Giroux can keep up with them and utilize their speed as opposed to Knuble who has to catch up or cheat back. This will force the other team to constantly tire, as well as avoid matching up against punishing defensemen in the corners, since Gagne, Richards, and Giroux rarely get stuck against the wall.
2) Giroux and Briere showed flashes of great chemistry, but neither guy wants/likes to shoot the puck. I’m worried about having two pure passers together with a less talented winger. Who scores? Who will bury the beautiful passes? If it’s Powe-Briere-Knuble, Powe goes into the corner, Knuble sets up in the slot, Briere on the half-wall, and everybody has a role. Ultimately, someone will have a play. Either coming out of the corner, off the wall, or a pass to Knuble. It makes our lines more top heavy, but I think it would create a more balanced third line.
3) Giroux is still young and needs to learn. Who better to teach him than Richards and Gagne? They are both leaders on the team, scoring threats, and some of the best defensive players in the game. Not a knock against Briere, but he is pretty one-dimensional. Giroux can be so much more, and I’d rather have him learn from Gagne than Danny.
4) We could see a lot more of these.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 19, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh! People after my own heart! I love the matchup of Gagne as Giroux’s mentor, and with Richards in the mix even better. Style wise, that pairing allows Giroux to mature much faster than having him learn from Briere. Richards, while a great player and captain, is still closer in age to Giroux putting him about halfway between “peer” and “mentor”, while Gags is clearly “mentor”.
All that said, Giroux did play pretty well when he was put in as center, so he’s not locked in as right wing and who knows what the lines will be next year. I do want him getting playing time with Gagne, even if it’s just on power plays or penalty kills.
And I do want to keep Knuble, if possible. It seems we’re all agreed that we’re short on vets (despite the disagreement over how many more we think we need). So I don’t want to lose the good ones we have or have a chance of keeping, and I definitely don’t want to see them used as trade bait for younger players. The young ones don’t mature without a few vets around.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 21, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You couldn’t be more right DragonGirl! Having a guy like Knubs around is SOOO important for these young guys. Mike is a class act as a hockey player and person. He works incredibly hard and it pays off. Sure, he isn’t the fastest or most skilled but he digs deep and gives 100% every time his skates hit the ice. That is the example these young guys need. At some point they aren’t gonna be all young and flashy and they need to start to learn how to play the right way now. If they have Knuble around I have no doubt that his work ethic, leadership, etc. will wear off on them. Sure, he isn’t as good now as he was the first couple years he was in Philly (and even more so in the Playoffs apparently, even though I didn’t see that at all) but what he offers in the locker room and as a veteran are priceless. Plus, he was still one of the top defensive forwards in the league all the while scoring timely goals (…if you haven’t realized by now, I really appreciate and like Mike Knuble).
I understand the cap space issue and that sacrifices must be made but I am keeping my fingers-crossed that Mike is wearing the Orange and Black jersey come October and is with us when we the Cup next season ;).
by Mitchell Green on Jun 25, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Homer
Apparently there has been some progress in the attempt to re-sign Knuble. I like him too, and hope he stays. If he does, though, I hope they give him a more limited role and don’t lean on him as heavily as they did this past year. If we’re going to win the Cup, Noobs has to stay sharp.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
J-Bo and Vets
Don’t give up on J-Bo so quickly. I don’t think he is going to get Campbell money with the economy as it is today. 1) The Cap isn’t going up and talk is next year it is going to go down so teams are going to very careful with spending. 2) I think J-Bo would want to come to a contender after spending his entire career watching the playoffs from the beach in Florida. To do so he would have to take less money. The only thing I wouldn’t do is give away JVR for anything he is untouchable. Low cost Rookies are the key to winning in the salary cap era. He won’t make big bucks for another 3 – 4 years at best and if he can develop into a Bobby Ryan (another big American player) that value at 0.875 per year is extremely important. We gave up a second rounder for both Kimmo and Hartnell. I think Lopul a pick and a lesser prospect is enough for a guy who is walking away for nothing in a week. Now if it was at the deadline they could have gotten a lot more. I would give up Sbisa over JVR at least J-Bo plays the same position, the second overall pick is too big of an asset and given time usually pans out well. I don’t think we want another Forsberg looming over us for the next decade.
I totally agree that we do need some Vets here is a couple of names that are affordable the might make more dollar sense Malhotra or dare I say Chris Gratton I figure moving Danny to the wing on the Carter line (Lopul traded), Danny could take the Faceoffs since Carter is horrible at it line and find Claude a center or a wing with some grit and finish. The aforementioned Rusty Fedotenko is also available grizzly vets Peca, Sammy Pahlsson, and Samuelsson are also UFA no chance at Hidler as he is RFA. One of those guys with J-Bo and Esche as a backup would be a strong offseason for the orange and black.
P.S. Don’t trust any reports out of Montreal or Toronto regarding our players do you think we would trade Danny to a contender in our conference, no chance.
jvr
if they trade jvr for jaybos rights i will not be a flyer fan anymore .. jvr needs to replace knuble .. they are similar type players .. JVR has higher ceiling .. why would we trade one of the best prospects in hockey when theres no guarentee he will even sign here
by jack is better than asante on Jun 21, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions
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