Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle to Flyers for Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and three picks
by Travis Hughes on Jun 26, 2009 11:02 PM EDT
in 2009 NHL Draft
93 comments
Chris Pronger is a Philadelphia Flyer.
The Flyers have traded for the all-star defenseman, sending Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and the 21st pick this evening, and next years first round pick. If the Flyers win the Cup this upcoming season, they owe the Ducks a third round pick. It is the second time that Lupul has been traded for Chris Pronger, as he was sent to Edmonton in 2006 from the Ducks.
Sbisa, who unexpectedly made the team out of training camp last year, has been regarded as an excellent young defensive prospect by the Flyers. The deal seems to be a sign from the Flyers that they are in "win now", as Pronger makes the Philadelphia blueline extremely strong. Dealing away Sbisa, however, will hurt fans of the orange and black.
Pronger, a free agent next July, will make $6.25 million this season. The deal adds about $2 milllion to the Flyers cap hit which is inching closer and closer to the limit. Including Ray Emery's contract, the Flyers cap hit is currently calculated at $52.5 million, just $4.3 million under the cap.
This deal officially ends the Jay Bouwmeester to Philadelphia talk.
Check here for a few quotes from Holmgren here at the Draft.
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1st
Talking with a Pittsburgh fan about the Pronger move
“Wow, that was steep”
Im glad to see that we just spent a good amount of our future for 1 year
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 26, 2009 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
I don’t like this. Getting rid of Lupul is one thing. I’d have done this for Lupul and the draft picks, but NOT for Sbisa as well.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 26, 2009 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You hit the nail right on the head, as far as I’m concerned. Pronger is great, but he’s also 34. I’m very happy to have him, but losing a 19-year-old defenseman who looked as though he was going to be pretty damn good kills me. It’s nothing new for the Flyers to be banking on a new acquisition to get us a long overdue cup, but this puts us right back towards the upper limit of the cap, along with the loss of a solid YOUNG defender. But what can you do: Holmgren was damned if he did this, and damned if he did nothing. I just hope it works out to our benefit…
by CTFlyer on Jun 27, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am just wondering how are you going to you guys are going to keep these guys??? There is only a 56 million cap you know!
by LetsGoDevils on Jun 26, 2009 7:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's not the concern
We have the cap space for it. Lupul @ 4.5m gone + Biron @ 3.5m gone = enough space for Pronger + Emery + a backup. We just won’t be too much more active unless we trade more cap space.
This deal will be sad if Sbisa is Timonen 2.0 & Lupul is putting in 30-40 goals on the ANA 1st or 2nd line and whatever the hell they draft in addition becomes an NHL talent.
This deal will be exquisite if Pronger leads us to a Cup.
Definitely fills a need, but simultaneously saps our minor league talent. Pronger’s 34, so he has 3-6 more years left, but who knows if we’ll be able to keep him for those years. Maybe they’re banking on being able to get a similar return for him next year or the year after if he’s under contract.
by Alon on Jun 26, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor league talent
It’s fair to say that the majority of the Flyers core of players are all young. Add in Giroux and JVR next year and it’s not as if the Flyers will be in real need of contributors from the farm system for the next year or so.
I’m not necessarily saying the move was great, but I do think they can afford to deplete the system a bit for now.
by JasonB on Jun 26, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
which is why I’m not one of the people slapping my head. I wish we’d given up, say, Kevin Marshall + Andreas Nodl or some such other combo to not give up Sbisa, maybe even toss in a 2nd each of the next two years instead, but it’s not as though the cupboard is bare.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all would have preferred that…
On another note… Of our top 6 defenseman, aren’t 4 25 or younger?
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Close
3 of ‘em now that Sbisa’s gone: Coburn, Carle, Parent.
Timonen & Pronger are above 34, Jones is 28, Alberts is bout 28 too. Still, since d-men can skate well into their 30s, that’s a solid 5 year corps of d-men if our only changes are cosmetic.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jones is the guy I was wrong on. I thought he was younger for some reason.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps because he makes so many dumb mental mistakes
that he seems like a rookie every year
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sigh
we couldn’t have gotten the #2 pick for that package? I love Pronger, but I’d rather have 15 years of Hedman. We couldn’t have gotten Bouwmeester either??? Is Pronger for a year or three really better?
by Alon on Jun 26, 2009 7:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Definitely a 'win now' move
That’s a very steep price to pay, even if Pronger is an impact player.
Who does Philly trade to make cap room for Pronger?
by PeterR on Jun 26, 2009 7:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
words cant express how disappointing this move is
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 26, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who is the other guy we got?
Dingle? I couldn’t tell what they said on TV.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 26, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dingle: 25 year old center, has never played a game in the NHL, and had more PIM than points last year for his AHL team (21 to 18, in 70 games)…
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 26, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never Mind...
Ryan Dingle. This guy looks like a real winner.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 26, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he’s currently an RFA at that. Nice job, Homer.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 26, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude should be riding the short bus not playing hockey. A real potential Hanson brother right here
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 26, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The definition of a throw in — Anaheim had to get down to under 50 contracts, so we had to take an extra player.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jun 26, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he really is an FO specialist
couldn’t hurt on the 4th line. After witnessing Asham’s solid contributions, I don’t really want to qualify any of our random pickups as throw-in types. The guy could be useful, in some small role.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh
trading away future talent is gut wrenching..
by mediocre gatsby on Jun 26, 2009 7:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
STUPID
this is dumber than the emery move
by Vinney N on Jun 26, 2009 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just wish
we could have traded Kevin Marshall instead of Sbisa.
by Alon on Jun 26, 2009 7:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Next Year
Our Defensive Pairings:
Timonen-Pronger
Coburn-Carle
Jones-Parent
Forward Lines:
Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-?
Powe-Briere-?
Carcillo-?-Asham
Goalies:
Emery
?
So we have four holes to fill (at least), and probably not a lot of money with which to do it.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 26, 2009 7:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It is sad that you are not counting Emery as one of those holes
by Moonage Daydream on Jun 26, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing JVR might find himself on the fastrack to the NHL.
by JasonB on Jun 26, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a very possible/probable scenario
"...You know, Reemer, someday I'm gonna own a big sports bar."
by IcersGuy on Jun 26, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually don’t really think they’ll put Timmonen and Pronger together.
by JasonB on Jun 26, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it would be good
Big bruiser + faster puck carrier? Then again, Pronger’s all-world talent makes him really fit with any other d-man. He can be the offensive puck-carrier, or the defensive bruiser, or the stay-at-home, or the mobile presence, or the etc. I would like to see him with Timonen for a couple reasons, though.
1) It makes our 1-2 punch arguably the best in the NHL, and combined with our great defensive forwards, when Timonen + Pronger are on the ice we won’t have a lotta goals scored on us.
2) Parent was okay vs opposing teams top lines (as per puckprospectus.com), but really it would be better to allow him to mature via dominating the opposing teams’ less elite offensive talent so that he can be saved for PK shifts against their dominators, so as to give Pronger & Timonen a rest on the PK.
3) It would really, really solidify our 3rd pairing to have Parent on the 3rd line — we don’t have to resign Alberts, or if we do, we can trade Jones, etc., and still end up with a much better 3rd line than last year (really, a significant weakness for us as the season went on)
4) I don’t want to mess up the Carle-Coburn chemistry. It really seemed to be developing in a big way as the season went on.
5) If you don’t put Pronger w/ Timonen, you’re not putting our two best d-men on the ice for the most time. If Pronger is a 2nd line d-man, he gets less icetime. If Timonen is, same for him. Maybe not a huge dif, but I’d rather have an extra 3 min of Pronger than Parent, etc.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All sound logic and you’re probably correct.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Parent and kimo was the best d-line last year....
i wouldnt change a thing there, put him with coburn, him and carel may have been good offensively, but they were trash on D, mostly cause coburn had to make up for carels shitty D. move carel to 3rd line with jones or alberts, and put pronger with coburn, and have 2 of the top d lines in the league.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh
The statistics don’t really support your argument. Timonen played very well vs. opposing teams’ top-level talent, indicating he was basically right at home. Parent, however, actually seems to have struggled — he put up solid #s and didn’t look lost, but the fact remains (and it is a fact) that Parent was periodically manhandled, which isn’t bad because he’s so young, but we shouldn’t think he’s ready for 1st pairing yet.
As far as Carle & Coburn, Carle’s D really really picked up as the year went on, so I don’t think your comment is really fair (the fact that his defense was okay is also born out by the statistics — if you want I can try to find the link again)
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im just saying that why put the two big guns on the same line. i think that the parent/kimo line was good and is only going to get better, and pronger/coburn will be just as dominant. and im not saying that i dislike carel, its just that he doesn’t play d that well, and it made coburn suffer at times. carel and alberts/jones as the 3rd line, imo, would be better then him with coburn. like i said, not tryn to say carel sucks, he does his job extremely well, but he just isn’t a very good defensive d-man. his job is to carry the puck and make plays, which he does do well.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see what your'e saying
and you’ve got excellent points, it’s just that Parent was a weak link on that line. I agree that depth is good, but I think putting Parent on the 3rd would really provide enough depth. Pronger & Coburn are two similar types of d-men, so while I wouldn’t dislike that combo, to me a combo of Timonen & Coburn / Carle & Pronger would seem more likely. Carle & Timonen are similar types of players — smooth skating puck carrying D-men, while Coburn & Pronger are bigger and a bit slower, albeit with ridiculous shots (Carle & Timonen don’t have) and two-way genius. Pronger is better in almost every way than Coburn, so hopefully Coburn’ll learn from Pronger, but I don’t think they need to be on the same line.
Carle’s defensive play, I think, got better as the year progressed. We have 3 guys that are in similar molds of puck-carriers — Timonen (elite), Carle (solid), and Jones (bleh). We have 3 guys that aren’t as fast, but have huge shots and are great defensive d-men. Pronger (elite, also offensively), Coburn (excellent d, good offense), and Parent (great D, solid offense). If we want to max the time our best players are on the ice (and we do), we should put Pronger & Timonen together. That shuts down our opponents’ top 2 lines. Then we should put Coburn & Carle together, and figure that they’ll be sufficient vs. the opponents 2nd line and dominant vs. their 3rd. Then, Parent & Jones (with Jones as the only eh player) can be trusted vs. most opponents 3rd lines and dominate almost any teams’ 4th line. As long as we do an okay job changing our d-lines in-game, I think that’s the most efficient set-up.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isnt it nice....
to ponder about our d-parings, and know that all 3 can be sick!!!
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I always thought Coburn was a pretty good skater. Isn’t that what makes him such an effective player, his ability to skate at that size? I think taller players look slower a lot because their strides are so long they don’t look like they are hurrying. It’s similar for Pronger; I don’t think he skates as well as Coburn but he sure covers ice when he has to and he’s so smart he never really gets caught in foot races.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you don’t put Pronger w/ Timonen, you’re not putting our two best d-men on the ice for the most time. If Pronger is a 2nd line d-man, he gets less icetime. If Timonen is, same for him. Maybe not a huge dif, but I’d rather have an extra 3 min of Pronger than Parent, etc.
I think most of your points are pretty solid but I dispute this. ANA didn’t play Special Nieds and Pronger on the same pair most of the time, but they weren’t afraid they weren’t getting enough out of their two best D. Pronger could play 30 minutes a night (which he won’t average for the year, I’d bet) and still leave 30 minutes for Timmonen to play (which he won’t average). There is plenty of ice to go around for your stud D; the question is whether you want the two to be on the same pair or break them up for depth. Especially facing PIT every team is going to want 2 shutdown D pairs and I don’t think PHI has that unless they break up Timmonen and Pronger.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there were ever a time to get Upshall and Umberger back, haha. Like you said, there’s not much money left to fill the holes, but what if we finally found a way to dump Jones? That’d help out substantially, at least in getting a player to fill the hole on the 2nd line.
by CTFlyer on Jun 27, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking two max through FA
Unless more room gets freed up through trading Briere. But until that happens, we work with what we’ve got.
Let’s start with possible goalies to bring in. Believe it or not, there’s a decent group to pick from here – even beyond resigning one of our current FA’s. Still, Craig Anderson remains on the list, but I fear that his moderate success may bump his salary expectations. To what, I don’t know – but it’s feasible. Seriously, look at this list – FA Goalies. There are enough guys on that list that have some experience as a starter/solid backup and cheap enough to fill the slot. At this point, why not a guy like Valiquette, Weekes, Danis, or Sanford – all cheap, and all can fill the role.
As for the forwards, well, it gets a little more tricky. Perhaps Pyatt or Ouellet come cheap, or at least cheap enough. Perhaps Knuble takes a paycut to save us a little. Or perhaps we reach a bit. Take an unconfirmed talent in Stephane Veilleux or Tomas Kopecky. Or there’s the personal favorite – bring back the ol’ Recchin’ Ball for another round. Sure, he’s almost 40, but I’m sure most Bruins fans would tell you that he hasn’t lost his scoring touch or his heart for the game. Add to that he was only $1.25mil last season, and he’s got a good history here in Philly to where I doubt he’d ask for a huge jump (if any) in salary at this point in his career.
From there, it’s filling from within – Nodl, JVR, others given a chance come August/September. Rinse. Repeat.
"...You know, Reemer, someday I'm gonna own a big sports bar."
by IcersGuy on Jun 27, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, it appears that JVR would have to look really poor to not make the big club.
If he can play like the #2 pick(or anywhere close) at the NHL level at some point this season, I think we’ll be in pretty great shape… If not, that’s where the “thin-ness” of the system becomes a worry.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I suspect we’ll sign a role player or two, I really don’t think this move impacts JVR for a couple reasons. One, he’s a LW/C, so if he does get called up it would have to be on the 3rd line C so that Briere can play LW and he can play C and Giroux can play RW. That’s a pretty risky scenario. If he isn’t good enough to be a 3rd liner, I don’t think we rush him. I think we let him marinate in the AHL and allow a Carcillo type to meander around and hope the razzle & dazzle of Briere & Giroux provides sufficient offensive punch to fulfill that gap of a 3rd line, and maybe move Asham up to the 2nd line, or Asham to the 3rd line and Giroux to the 2nd line, sacrifice some scoring depth in exchange for stability on the first 2 lines and an elite defense.
I still think we’re not done. In fact, I don’t really want to comment more on my hypotheses for Flyers lines until more of the pieces fall into place. There’s another couple shoes that need dropping before our speculation becomes more than random guesswork.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like powe on that 3rd line, he plays just like upshall and he seemed to make the plays, why move him. i can see JVR on the 4th ,line with Ashem and Carcillo, i just dont know who will take over at lupuls spot, nodel maybe, mattsomotto can play wing(actually i could see danny move up, and powe, giroux, and motto being a good 3rd line). and what the hell are they going to do with that bum cote, he has to go.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather see JVR stay in the minors than skate on the 4th line.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I liked Powe on that line too. If we let Knuble go, we have 2 holes at RW — either on the 1st & 2nd line, the 1st & 3rd line, the 2nd & 3rd line, the 1st & 4th line, or the 2nd & 4th line, assuming Asham won’t play on the 1st or 2nd and Giroux can play anywhere from the 1st to the 3rd.
Knowing that, I think we’re better off trying to sign 1 good RW and letting Nodl fill the other spot (or someone), and I definitely do NOT want JVR on the 4th. It’s a waste of his talent & time.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JVR is really going to replace Knuble one day, thats his style of play but faster, but he is not ready yet. this is why that i think it CRUCIAL that we sign knuble for another year. and if we do that, then Nodel and Motto could come up and play(i dont know his stats, but i saw a couple games, and motto was sick, and i met him at the rookie camp last year, very likable guy and think he is a future starting C in the nhl)
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
couple thangs
I think JVR’s position means he won’t really “replace” Knuble in the literal sense of playing his position, but he will certainly do a lot of the things Knuble does. I’ve said it a long time now — JVR has the potential to be LeClair with more speed, or Rick Nash. We can’t waste that by having him get like 7 minutes a game on the 4th line. Let him play in the AHL.
I also want to resign Knuble, or someone who’s about as good. Matsumoto isn’t really ready yet for the NHL either, but he’s not a bad worst case scenario — I think we’re more likely to turn to Jared Ross & Andreas Nodl, though. Both of them can be NHL players this year, albeit not top-notch ones.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matsumoto is going to be 23 this year. He’s spent 2+ seasons in the AHL. He should be pretty close to being ready to contribute in some way to the big club.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Judging by the WJC I don’t think JVR is anywhere near ready for the NHL. His skating was underwhelming, even against easier competition. If anything I think he plays W and lets Briere play C, I just can’t see him being able to handle the responsibilities of an NHL C yet.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To say that this move reeks of desparation would be an understatement.
by Moonage Daydream on Jun 26, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t that a good thing?
Wouldn’t people complain that they weren’t desperate enough if they hadn’t made a move for a defenseman?
by JasonB on Jun 26, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JasonB
as an eagles blogger, you make more sense then most of these flyers fans. your the god of sbnation lol.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the Eagles certainly get lots of flak for not being “desperate” enough. Not “going for it” or “going all in.”
The Flyers are clearly trying here. They’re going for it… While I’m not necessarily doing cartwheels over the move, I give them credit for “going for it.”
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um......
I think we got hosed Clarkie, I mean Homer. I like Pronger but that just seems way steep. So should they start working on the penalty kill right now? Well I guess we got our mean Dman now. So much for my dreams of Ohlund.
by bernadette on Jun 26, 2009 7:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not my favorite Flyers move of all time...
If it leads to a Cup next year, then great…but I don’t like Pronger and this stinks too much of a desperation move…I agree that this should’ve been enough to move up and grab one of the impact young defensemen (Cowen at least if not Hedman)…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Moridin417 on Jun 26, 2009 7:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another futile move.
That was alot to give up for another old defensemen. We finally get out from underneath Hatchers contract and take on another one. Is this guy missing a leg or something?
Can’t keep giving up picks and young players.
by Downtown1950 on Jun 26, 2009 8:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pronger and Hatcher are completely different
Pronger’s type of player ages much, much better than Hatcher’s. Hatcher is slow, Pronger is not. Hatcher was not offensive, Pronger is. Hatcher was not even as big of a hitter as Pronger.
Hatcher’s good, but Pronger is e-freakin-lite. Elite. Completely different situation.
Which is not to say I’m happy about what we gave up. It was a lot.
by Alon on Jun 26, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a big Flyers fan but this does not make sense to me to give up a young defensive player for an old one. Along w/ alot more. I along with the rest of you are very disappointed. Sad day in Philly. Kind of an oppisite of the sixers going w/ Holiday for the future.
by DeanH on Jun 26, 2009 8:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
worlds apart
hockey players can last much longer than basketball players, first of all, and second of all Pronger is an HOF talent whereas Sbisa might be a regular this year and probably 2 years from now (but who knows how good he’ll be).
Now, you can argue it’s too much to give up for Pronger, but you can’t argue it’s anything like the Sixers plans — as in, it’s not even opposite, it’s completely separate.
by Alon on Jun 26, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point was that it seemed to give up alot for 1 player with 2 first rounders. So, honestly, in your opinion, do you think this was a good trade for our Flyers? I am a Flyers fan and did go to a game last year.
by DeanH on Jun 26, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The idea is good. Getting Chris Pronger on your team is not a bad thing to happen. Yea he is a bit old but he brings a lot to the table. But the result was bad. You are right, we gave up an ungodly amount for one player (well two, I guess, but not really).
Evaluating the trade right now, I say advantage ANA obviously. I am not happy about losing Sbisa. But if we win the Cup, I really won’t care about Sbisa, Lupul or either of those draft picks.
The other thing that stinks is that this is a very quick fix. After this season, you look at Pronger, who will be 35 and more importantly at the end of his contract, looking to get a pay increase. I doubt we will resign him. I don’t think we’ll be able to. Worst case scenario; we lose Pronger and are back at square one. Kimmo is no spring chicken either. Plus, we gave up Sbisa who was young and could have been apart of a good defensive corp.
Idk about this one guys . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 26, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think it was a good trade
We had a top 5 offense last year, and we’ll probably have a top 5-10 offense this year. Our defense was our achilles heel. There’s a lot of buzz about Sbisa, but keep in mind, this is a 19 year old d-man. Unless you have a top 5 pedigree, recent history dictates that you’re not going to turn out (as a d-man) until your early-to-mid-20s. By that time, Sbisa’s contract is up, he’ll want a pay raise, etc, etc., and he’ll still only dream of ever being as good as Pronger in a bad year.
Sbisa’s got great potential, but as his trademate Lupul shows, that’s not a surefire sign of stardom. The 2 firsts hurt, but we’re banking on the 2nd first being a bottom-of-the-round 1st, which is really not that valuable in terms of how likely a player you get there is going to be an impact player. As JasonB mentioned, it’s not like we’re a team with hobbling vets. We’ve got 2 all-star defensemen in their mid 30s, which seems old, except when you remember that it’s hockey and a hockey player can play into his late 40s (Chelios). Not saying that Pronger & Timonen will, but neither has shown any signs of slowing down really, so I would suspect they’re going to be Flyers a fairly long time. I don’t think Pronger will want a big raise (maybe a small one), but even if he does we actually do have the space to resign him since Jones’ deal will be up even if we don’t trade him. The 1sts hurt, so does Lupul, so does Sbisa, but we got Chris F’ng Pronger.
The basketball equivalent, if you really want one, would be trading a high-potential under-achiever (Louis Williams), a solid but unspectacular, with lots of potential, prospect (Thaddeus Young), and 2 late first round picks (generally role player types) in exchange for Tim Duncan. Older than you’d like, sure, but still a dominant player who is inarguably in the top 3 of his position, and inarguably amongst the top 10 players in the game. If every single one of the players ANA got fulfills his potential, still none would be as good as Pronger. That’s a big if. Elite defensemen are incredibly rare.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the end, the move was made for the express purpose of winning right now. So that’s the basis on which this move should be, and ultimately will be judged.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
The more I think about it, the more I like it. I’m really pumped to see how complete a team we have this coming year — it should be phenomenal. A lot of the talk this year was debating between JBo & Komisarek — well, folks, we just got the defensive qualities of a Komisarek on crack & roids with the offensive know-how of JBo and one of the hardest shots in the NHL. Zdeno Chara is diet-Chris Pronger.
Takes talent to get talent, unless that talent is so insane that he’s not worth it (Terrell Owens). Pronger ain’t that kinda guy — you don’t just get to wear an “A” on a team with leaders like Neidermeyer, Getzlaf, and Teemu Selanne. We just acquired a stay-at-home d-man who’s also a brilliant QB on the offensive (at the same time!!!1111), and who is basically another coach on the ice (like Timonen & Richards & Gagne). Consider me a happy fan.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basketball analogies are inapplicable just because of the roster make up. Role players play almost nothing in the NBA and stars play 75% of the game, at least. Not that you are wrong, it’s always better to get the best player in a trade but going 3 straight years without a first round pick isn’t just easy to shrug off in a capped era.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2009/6/26/926860/holmgren-pronger-gives-us-a-better
Holmgren audio on the Pronger trade.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jun 26, 2009 8:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Travis and Darren Dreger are reporting . . .
whispers on the draft floor Pronger will be asking for a 5 year extension at 6 mil or better.
You know he’s not getting that from us . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 26, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s not getting the five years, but Homer will give him what he wants money-wise through those 35+ incentives that don’t count against the cap they were planning to use with Knuble.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 26, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets hope to see A LOT of this . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 26, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pronger is a great player and there’s little doubt that he makes us better at the blue line right now… but yeah, that was a LOT to give up.
by JasonB on Jun 26, 2009 11:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting note about Dingle
His Hockey’s Future profile has a very interesting note… he led Denver in faceoff wins last year and became their faceoff ‘specialist.’ That’s where the Flyers need a ton of improvement. I wonder if that’s why Homer picked him — to get some good faceoff men into the system.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 27, 2009 12:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
COuld be. Like Travis said, the Ducks needed to throw a player into this deal to get under 50 contracts. So it makes sense that the Flyers would ask to throw in a guy that could at least win faceoffs.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but i dont see him on the flyers for a long time, if at all. anything could happen, but i think that he was just a guy to lower their roster. i wouldn’t be surprised if he was cut at some point, but i hope he can be a good phantom
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet he centers the 4th line
and allows Powe to be on that 3rd line, where his talents are better utilized.
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’d would like to see him start on the phantoms, the only bad thing is now i cant go watch them to see who looks good. and i hear that he has an edge to his game, downie like, but not completely nuts.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and what i mean by start on the phantoms, i mean the year, i dont want him to come right up to the Flyers.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not saying I think he’ll be on the big club anytime soon. Just that if they were going to throw a player in, it can’t hurt to have a guy that can win faceoffs somewhere in the system.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How good of a prospect is Sbisa? I know he was a fan favorite type of guy, as he was able to be on the team at such a young age, showing he might have a promising future ahead of him. Because of that I’m wondering how good he is actually suppose to be. How much better is he projected to be than Marshall or Bourdon (also both really young) if at all?
by FredEx on Jun 27, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's good.
I would peg his ceiling as Kimmo Timonen-lite, actually. He’s pretty fast, solid in the offense and solid in the defense. He has a chance to be excellent on both ends, but I don’t think he’ll ever be spectacular on both ends. In a best-case scenario, he becomes a whiz of a PP QB and a guy that isn’t physical but takes the puck outta the opponent’s hands (a la Timonen). He’s 19, and as has been noted he’s very raw and it was never really a given that he’d be our 6th d-man outta training camp.
Perhaps 3-4 years from now we would have begun to see a polished player that doesn’t take stupid penalties and puts his great raw talent into great use. I suspect that, while his ceiling is a Timonen type, his probable outcome is probably a Matt Carle type to continue the Flyers comps.
As is right now, he’s probably an AHL 1st pairing D man, projected to be more of an offensive talent than Marshall/Bourdon, although Marshall’s defensive capabilities are probably already better than and will continue to be better than Sbisa’s. In the future, a pairing of Sbisa/Marshall had the net potential to be similar to Coburn/Carle, although Marshall certainly does not have Coburn’s raw talent and Sbisa, I think, will be better than Carle.
Does this help at all? He’s a great prospect, and I mean that on the scale of poor – fair – mediocre – borderline – below average – average – above average – good – great – excellent – elite
by Alon on Jun 27, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, it does help. Between the ill trade feelings and a fearing the casual fan biased reaction of ‘all our prospects are amazing’ I was looking for a good anaylsis. And I figured someone on here, like yourself, could give me a better summary of something I could try to locate online.
I know trading young talent is always tough, but I’m OK with it, as we still have Coburn and Parent, and a lesser talent in Carle, who are younger players. And we still have Marshall and Bourdon, and the older (then those two) Danny Syvret.
Where do you put our other young defensemen on that scale?
by FredEx on Jun 27, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m reading every single comment as it’s posted here, and reading both the positive and negative reaction from Twitter, etc. The negative reaction is from the trade specifics (Sbisa). Everything else is positive. We have an entirely different team than we did just seven ago. Sam Carchidi says we’re now entering Part II of The Hammer Era.
Forgetting defensive pairings and the other couple of holes we have, this team now has a serious vocal leader with a winning attitude who will help Richie grow as a leader himself in a big way. Yes, Pronger is the kind of guy who will not let you give up a 3 goal lead in an elimination game at home. We also have an equally fiery goalie who has a hell of a lot to prove in Emery. If you haven’t already, read what Pronger said to Sportsnet Ontario just a bit ago.
Sidney will not be sliding through our goalie and into the net with the puck on top of him this season. I really was beginning to think that if Emery was playing as well as we know he can play, and if we got Bouwmeester, we had a good shot to get out of the East assuming someone took out the Penguins for us. But Pronger is a totally different animal. There’s still certainly some polishing to do, and I would be a little surprised if there wasn’t another minor deal or two later in the summer working on the lower two lines, but who knows what we will see this season. It will be different and exciting, and we have a very well-rounded team.
The talk on here is electrifying. It’s not even worth wondering if the Flyers are going to win the Stanley Cup, because that’s pointless. But the Flyers will have a much better chance this year than last, and this trade is directly responsible for that because Pronger is the man who will bring Flyers hockey back to Philadelphia.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 27, 2009 1:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“I have no plans to change the way I play the game. I don’t care if the league is mad at me or the refs are mad at me, I’m going out and I’m going to play the way I have always played. I pass the puck, I play physical and I punish the guy in front of the net.”
. . . I really like that!
“Absolutely,” Pronger said. “If we get the goaltending from (Ray) Emery that he gave Ottawa when we played them in the final, then I think we are sitting pretty.”
. . . that may be asking a lot of Emery but I imagine Ray is up to the challenge. Plus, having a Chris Pronger in front of you sure helps.
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 27, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm....
I think the Flyers line-up will look something like this – and you may seem surprised, but think about it.
Gagne – Richards – Hartnell
Maroon – Carter – Briere
Powe – Giroux – Carcillo
Asham – Ross – Cote
Timonen – Parent
Pronger – Coburn
Carle – Jones
Emery and ????
I’d still like to see if Knuble could be squeezed under the cap, but I don’t see how it’s possible. And unfortunately, we couldn’t seem to drop Jones for a 2nd round pick, so we can’t keep Alberts either. All that’s left is finding some dumb sucker to take Briere off our hands for a good winger … Dany Heatley maybe?
Oh, and Holmgren wanted Dingle in the trade because with Powe and Giroux called up the Phantoms only had three centers on the roster. And he’s decent at faceoffs.
by penguinsfan on Jun 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ewww cote, i think i just threw up seeing him on a starting roster. almost hald, hell, all the phantoms are better hockey players them him. screw danny, we need to find a sucker to take that talentless wast of space.
by JpH89 on Jun 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maroon?
Why do you think Patrick Maroon will be playing with the Flyers next year? He hasn’t had any time up with the big club and is only 20.
I did some research and here is what I found: Maroon, who is from St. Louis, MO, was originally going to play college hockey but was recruited by and ended up playing with the London Knights in the OHL. Not too shabby considering John Tavares was also on the team and apparently, Maroon tore it up scoring impressive numbers and was one of the top point getters on the team (along with Tavares). He finished 14th in the league (as a rookie, I might add) with 35 goals, 55 assists for 90 pts along with 57 PIM in 64 games. Tavares finished with 40 goals, 78 assists for 118 points and 69 PIM in 59 games.
He spent last year with the Phantoms and was Fourth on the team in scoring behind Jared Ross, Jonathan Matsumoto and Danny Syvret posting 23 goals and 31 assists for 54 points and a 2+/-, 62 PIM in 80 games. Nothing to scoff at.
Other things to note: The kid is freaken huge. He is 6’4’’, 225 pounds (and, in the past, has been criticised for “poor dietary habits and a lack of proper conditioning.”). Isn’t afraid to drop the gloves. And according to Paul Holmgren is "a great big kid with tremendous skills and hockey sense."
With all that said, I would be very surprised if he makes the Flyers out of camp. The Flyers do have holes to fill but I wouldn’t say that Maroon is atop the list to fill those holes. Then again, maybe he can surprise us. He has great size, is feisty and showed he can put the puck in the net. Maybe he can be a Thomas Holmstorm type? Time will tell. Either way, he was a steal. The Flyers drafted Maroon in the 6th round of the 2007 draft, 161st overall. So to find someone with plenty of potential that late in the draft is a very good thing.
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 27, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely love this trade...
Chris Pronger is exactly what the Flyers were missing last year. I see everyone’s biggest gripe really is Sbisa in the trade. I’m apprehensive myself, but there’s no reason not to think that Sbisa could end up just like Freddy Myer…good first year and then…bleh. Two first rounders in addition to is tough to swallow, but I think all the griping would end if the Flyers win the Cup next year. Lupol gone, I won’t make a sound about that, too lazy and inconsistent for my liking. Great scoring touch, but with a healthy Briere, we get that 25 goals back anyway.
As far as resigning Pronger after the last year of his deal, I don’t think his contract will exceed what the Flyers are going to be paying him this year, so less cap hit in the future, which is always good. I really don’t see him looking for more money at 35/36 than he’s making now.
by Cokes_03 on Jun 29, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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Atlantic Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
58 | 36 | 20 | 2 | 74 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
59 | 35 | 22 | 2 | 72 |
|
Philadelphia
|
57 | 29 | 25 | 3 | 61 |
|
New York Rangers
|
59 | 26 | 26 | 7 | 59 |
|
New York Islanders
|
58 | 23 | 27 | 8 | 54 |
(updated 2.9.2010 at 9:00 AM EST)
Flyers Schedule
Next 5 Games
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@
New Jersey
|
Wed 02/10 | 7:00 PM EST |
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Montreal
|
Fri 02/12 | 6:00 PM EST |
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@
Montreal
|
Sat 02/13 | 7:00 PM EST |
|
@
Tampa Bay
|
Tue 03/02 | 7:30 PM EST |
|
@
Florida
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Wed 03/03 | 7:30 PM EST |
Last 5 Games
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New Jersey
|
Mon 02/08 | W 3 - 2 |
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@
Minnesota
|
Sat 02/06 | L 1 - 2 |
|
@
Edmonton
|
Wed 02/03 | L 0 - 1 |
|
@
Calgary
|
Mon 02/01 | W 3 - 0 |
|
New York Islanders
|
Sat 01/30 | W 2 - 1 |
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