The Pronger Trade -- 5 Talking Points
The Flyers' blockbuster trade with the Anaheim Ducks (Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle for Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and a slew of draft picks) quickly became the biggest league-wide storyline at the 2009 NHL Draft. Though the sun has not yet risen on this deal, the buzz among the media, fans, and BSH readers is already deafening. The trade was the lead story on ESPN.com last night, especially impressive given the scarcity of NHL headlines on the site during the off-season (not to mention during the regular season and the playoffs).
Generalizing substantially, these seem to be the five main talking points when it comes to evaluating the trade from the Flyers perspective:
- Pronger Has Experience Leading a Team to the Cup - Before adding Chris Pronger, the Flyers boasted only one player with a Stanley Cup ring, approximately nineteen fewer cup winners than currently play for the Penguins (ugh). That player is Mike Knuble, who won his Cup eleven years ago for a Detroit team to which he only contributed seven goals. So it can be pretty safely said that experience had been lacking. However, with experience, of course, comes age. Pronger has had injury problems in the past, and is without a doubt past his peak playing days. The obvious precedent in this part of the debate is Derian Hatcher, who also was brought to the Flyers in recent years for his physical defense and leadership experience in winning a Cup. Hatcher didn't bring the Flyers a Cup in his three years of playing "old NHL" style defense for the Orange and Black. Pronger has won a Stanley Cup in the "new NHL" era, so the comparison isn't perfect, but it's still one worth considering.
- Pronger Plays "Flyers Hockey" - He said it himself. Pronger plays so-called "Flyers Hockey," which would theoretically make him a good fit for the Flyers. "Flyers Hockey," while naturally my favorite kind of hockey, often serves as a euphemism for "Dirty Hockey." Remember also that Daniel Carcillo too was lauded for playing "Flyers Hockey," though playing his style of Flyers Hockey for the actual Flyers resulted in his not scoring a goal in his first twenty-four games with the club. One more hard-hitter with a reputation for the occasional cheap shot could lead to even more penalties and suspensions for the Broad Street Bullies, especially considering that in Lupul and Sbisa the Flyers dealt away two of their least physical players.
- Letting Lupul Leave - In losing Joffrey Lupul, the Flyers' lost their only player whose last name is a palindrome. They also lost without a player who tallied twenty-five goals and twenty-five assists last season, his fifty total points putting him at fifth-best on the team. He was also a very popular guy in the locker room who brought with him a surprising amount of modeling experience. But with all those pluses came some definite disappointments. Lupul had always been considered something of an underachiever with the Flyers, despite a goal-production that stayed near his linemates'. At best he was labeled as streaky, at worst a player who didn't bring any energy or commitment far too often. He tallied only one goal and one assist in the playoffs last season, though when it comes to Lupul's playoff goal scoring his Game 7 OT winner vs. the Caps forever gets him a pass. That one goal likely was the reason for his enormous new contract in the summer of 2008, a contract which made him too pricy to keep around through the summer of 2009.
- Selling the Future - Luca Sbisa's departure isn't all that surprising, considering that management never seemed to forgive him for oversleeping back in December. The 19-year old Sbisa generally impressed with his play over 39 games during the regular season, but also appeared to be a raw talent in need of a lengthy polishing period. Sbisa scored zero goals for the Flyers, and was a -6 on the season. He was also quietly one of the team's least disciplined players, averaging one minor penalty for every 38 minutes of playing time, a rate that compares especially unfavorably with his fellow defensemen (Matt Carle, for example, averaged one minor penalty for every 154 minutes of playing time). While Sbisa is largely a known quantity at this early stage of his career, what would have emerged from the draft picks the Flyers ditched yesterday is a complete unknown. Draft picks late in the first round may seem like abstract, amorphous assets, but in more concrete terms they can turn into players like Simon Gagne (#22, 1998), Mike Richards (#24, 2003), and Claude Giroux (#22, 2006). Or they can turn into Steve Downie (#29, 2005). We'll never know who the Flyers would have been able to get with the 21st pick in the first round they traded, nor with the other two picks they sent to Anaheim. Paired with the second round pick that got sent to Phoenix at the trade deadline, the wholesale dumping of draft picks is a trend that could cause some concern.
- Action Over Inaction - In 2008, the Flyers were knocked out of the playoffs by the Penguins in five games and made relatively few off-season moves. In 2009, the Flyers were knocked out of the playoffs by the Penguins in six games and have already made huge waves by before free agency even begins by acquiring Chris Pronger and Ray Emery. Whether you agree with the trade or not, the lack of complacency is apparent. The dissatisfaction Paul Holmgren and the rest of the Flyers staff have with last season's result is obvious, despite the fact that the team was a three goal cushion away from pushing the eventual champions to a Game 7. Some may call the reaction it reassuring urgency and commitment to improving, while others may see it as hasty scrambling that reeks of desperation. Or perhaps both.
There's a lot to digest, so chew thoroughly. Once you've done that, only one question remains: Do you like this trade?
(Joffrey Lupul, for his part, is now much closer to his friends on the cast of Sober House, so I'm expecting his vote to go emphatically in the "Yes" column.)
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still undecided
Whether i like this trade depends on three things: 1) Whether we are capable of extending Pronger and not making this a one year rental trade. 2) whether we resign Knuble. 3) whether Dingle can make contributions immediately.
by Nooose99 on Jun 27, 2009 7:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ducks fan here.
1) Shouldn’t be a huge issue, I think. There’s many cities that cannot take Pronger, either because of salary or fan anger. Plus Lauren Pronger has her dislikes. It’s not a 30-team bid, anyway.
2) No idea.
3) Probably not. I’ve barely heard of the kid, but I’m terrible with prospects. I don’t think there was any expectation of the kid making an appearance in Anaheim, anyways.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
by Earl Sleek on Jun 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how any die hard Flyer fan can not LOVE this trade
Lupul never came into his own as a consistent point producer, although his 25 goals were much needed this past season. He’s never been physical and he’s never been one to take control when on the ice like a Richards, Carter, Gagne or even Knuble does. Sbisa is a young defensemen who I think will eventually be a good (not great) player in the league in 2 or 3 years but he’s not physical either and doesn’t shoot the puck from the blue line so he’ll never see power play time. Pronger had 196 shots last year which is more than any Flyer’s defenseman including Timmonen, our “best” offensive-defenseman and Braydon Coburn who led the defenseman with 130 shots. Not even 2 per game. Pronger may be a shell of the player he used to be but that’s still better than anything we have on our roster right now at the D position and his size, strength and toughness in front of the net will prove invaluable to Ray Emery. That’s one of many things Biron never had in his 2 seasons here, a physical defenseman to move guys out from in front of the net. I guarantee we wouldn’t have lost that last game to the Rangers if we had Pronger on the blueline instead of guys like Alberts and Carle. Let them go, save cap space and sign some good, young defenseman for cheap $ and let them develop at the AHL level.
by BEEFSBUMS on Jun 27, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ive been a Chris Pronger fan for a long time. He’s always been my favorite non-Flyer in the NHL, now he’s no longer a non-Flyer.
to say we gave up too much is an understatement. I dont care that we gave up Lupol, his days in Philadelphia were on borrowed time since he was rumored to be in every trade package this season. We lost a good young defenseman in Sbisa but his loss won’t really hurt the team too much. the big thing that bothered me is the two first round picks, in a salary cap league you can’t just give those picks out like Halloween candy.
the bottom line is, we get a Hall of fame Defenseman who is still a dominant force in this league. He’s lead a team to a Stanley cup victory and he brings a vicious physical element to our blue line that we have been lacking. just thinking about these defensive pairings makes me drool:
Timonen-Parent
Pronger-Coburn
Carle-Jones.
We have two #1 all star caliber players in Timonen and Pronger, and two young guys who are only going to get better in Coburn and Parent. nobody is scoring against that top 4. I also think a lesser role will allow Jones to become a more productive player. In addition to all this, when we’re protecting a one goal lead late in the game we can always pair Pronger with Timonen, good luck to any offensive unit trying to do anything against those two.
We are a little thinner on the wings now, especially if Knuble leaves. I wouldnt be opposed to/surprised if we traded someone like Matt Carle for a winger.
The bottom line is our team is significantly better today then it was yesterday. I scowl at the Derian Hatcher comparisions because Pronger is nothing like Hatcher. Hatcher was an old NHL style tough guy who could hit and fight but couldnt skate or move the puck. In addition to his physicality, Pronger is an excellent skater who can lock down the other teams best player. He’s also regarded as one of the best passers from the blue line in the NHL. Overall we gave up too much, but you can’t not be excited about the prospects of Chris Pronger playing in Philadelphia
by njh3293 on Jun 27, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we should keep carle, i hate to say this defense wins championships. fleury, scuderi… dammit.
by kolparty on Jun 27, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
typically you have a puck moving defense men and a checking De, so the lines would most likely be
pronger-parent
timmonen-coburn
carle-jones
alberts-.. someone from phantoms svyret*
also god willing jvr makes the team this year, how do you go number 2 overall, patrick kanes on the cover of nhl 10 and were still waiting on your first nhl goal, comeon man condition your ass off this summer.
by kolparty on Jun 27, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank god we only need 3 lines, because if I see any more of Alberts and his refusal to clear the puck out of the zone, Im going rip the hair out of my head.
by philiafan14364 on Jun 27, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby Ryan took some time as a No. 2 and he turned out ok. Be patient.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, but Carle doesn’t play defense.
by SJPhillyVT on Jun 29, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really want to know where this "Carle doesn't play D" theory comes from...
I’m not sure what metric you’re using, but in the playoffs, Carle had a 0 +/- with 10 blocked shots. In the regular season, he was behind only Kimmo Timonen with 142 blocked shots and led the defenseman with 47 takeaways. (He was third among defenseman in giveaways with 56, but still tied for the D lead with a -9 giveaway to turnover ration, along with Ryan Parent) Lastly, he was third on the D in TOI/G this season even considering he got less than 1 minute of PK time per game. He was by far our third best defenseman last year, and he only drew 11 minor penalties in 76 games. (Coburn drew 35 minors, 3 majors, and 1 misconduct in 80 games)
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly right. Pronger didn’t lead the Ducks to the Cup. Niedermayer got the Conn Smythe and I think at least two other players were ahead of Pronger in the running (Pahlsson and MacDonald). Arguably the two biggest games of that Cup run were won without Pronger in the lineup due to suspensions (Game 4 of the WCF and game 4 of the SCF). Not to say Pronger isn’t still an elite player, he definitely led EDM to the Cup finals in 06 but I don’t think he’s going to just carry a team anymore.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dont like the trade
flyers gave away too much for a 34 year old… how old was coffey when he came to philly? we all know that didnt go well. here’s hoping chris has at least 4 solid years left…
by fitzy first on Jun 27, 2009 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Flyers went to the Stanley Cup finals the year they brought in Paul Coffey.
Also I believe Coffey was 37 or 38 when he came here.
by JasonB on Jun 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if the Flyers won the Cup in 97, it would’ve been considered an excellent move. Same exact situation here with Pronger.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jun 27, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fiddlesticks...
what if pelle lindbergh drove a tank… i just hope the best for pronger
So, are we hoping for an immediate return with chris, like coffey… which was one good year… im just thinking if he doesnt get hurt, he could play a bunch of solid years… maybe finds new life in Phi… retire here
by fitzy first on Jun 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The hope is definitely a number of solid years. I think Homer would be stupid to extend his contract for five years at this point, but I think there’s a better than not chance it’ll be a three year deal (maybe four). What I hope they do is agree to a deal but wait until October 10 when he turns 35 to actually sign the deal so we can take advantage of that 35+ loophole we were going to use for Knuble.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 27, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes! That is a great point. 5 years is kinda crazy but 2 or 3 sounds good. At that point, Pronger doesn’t need to be the #1 defensemen in hopes that Parent, Carle and, less so, Coburn, start to really come into their own. That way he can be great support.
What are the rules with that loophole? What about Knuble? Can that loophole apply to numerous players of 35?
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you wait for him to be 35? If you sign him before 35 he can retire and the contract comes off your books; but if he signs after 35 his contract is on your books for the full term even if he retires. Seems like PHI would rather have the protection of cleaning the contract off the books if Pronger decides to retire before the deal is up.
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 27, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh, that is a very interesting point as well. Do go for the short term reassurance that waiting til he is 35 eliminates/reduces? his cap hit or go for long term protection in case he does retire earlier then his contract term? Tough one . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 29, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remain optimistic. Looking at this next year, our defense has been improved immeasurably. It is amazing to think that one player like Pronger has improve our team so much. Our offense will still be tops in the league and consider that now our defense is much better, more opportuintyes will be given to our offense to score. If we shut it down in our defensive end that means more of the play will be in our offensive end making our chances of scoring that much higher.
It is all one huge domino effect and Pronger will be the domino that starts to topple the rest of the line (topple in a good sense, showing how Pronger effects everything else in a good way). For example, Kimmo and Braydon are relieved of a lot of the defensive pressure helping them to be settle and preserve themselves. Carle, Parent, Jones and anyone else now have a player to model themselves off and learn from. We are now much more versatile defensively. You can play Kimmo, Prongs or Coburn with any other defensemen and have no drop off. As I said, our offense will benefit mightily from a great defense, something we have not had in a long time. Teams will take more penalties against us if we are responsible with the puck and do most of the cycling in the offensive end. Our toughness is increased which is always good and mentally, you have to think, the Flyers players love knowing that they are tougher then any other team. Remember, this is hockey; a game whose fabric is intertwined with toughness. Leadership has just taken a huge jump. I think one of the biggest losses in recent memory was Keith Primeau. Forget what he did statistically (which wasn’t bad, especially in the Playoffs) and focus on his leadership. When he retired the Flyers lost the specific kind of leadership that he provided. Having Pronger might bring some of that back and it will help out Richie to lead this team.
Then you have to think of Ray Emery. He knows the kind of pressure that is on him to be the goalie that he was for Ottawa when he led them to the Finals. Thats a lot to ask but it just got a hell of a lot easier with Pronger standing in front of him shutting down the other team’s scorers, blocking shots and clearing the crease. Emery must be so relieved.
Consider other aspects like Giroux gets to spend the entire season with the big club hopefully meshing beautifully with Briere and/or Gags going French Canadian all over the rest of the NHL, Also, the Flyers are pissed. They got eliminated by a team that, imo, they are better than and should have beaten. Don’t tell me they don’t have a vendetta against the rest of the league and will be awful to play against.
All in all, this year is looking like it is going to be very good. We can deal with the future later. Lets focus on the 2009-2010 season and show that we are the best team in the NHL and are the true Hockeytown.
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 27, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem I see is this. The Flyers made a move to win a cup within the next two years. But at the same time they are also gambling that Emery won’t be a loose screw. If Emery can’t return to form and has a bad season then the Flyers are basically out of those draft pics and will have to continue making moves for now.
Basically I’d be okay with this deal if Biron was still around, I just don’t trust Emery.
by WebBard on Jun 27, 2009 8:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There’s definitely a huge risk in Emery (which is why we need a real backup; we can’t just use Munroe — Conklin or Legace have been mentioned around here, which would be good), but at the same time, Biron simply isn’t worth the long term $5m+ deal he wanted and we can’t pay that kind of money anyway. Marty’s a great guy with a great attitude, but he’s not worth Brodeur dollars and the last thing we needed was another long-term high-price contract, so we took the cheap risk (with potential for high reward) in Emery.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 27, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very well put.
I like Biron a lot, but he’s not somebody who should be bringing home that many platefuls of bacon.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jun 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and there is a plan B
back-up Gs in the flyers system or perhaps another free agent. if emery doesnt work, flerys can always get someone else and sure as spit ray ray knows that… the man will be highly motivated
by fitzy first on Jun 28, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need to go after a real free agent like Anderson or Clemmensen (and we have the cap to do so). Munroe is unproven and Backlund needs some time to adjust to North American rinks. But I agree — Ray has serious motivation to be successful and he’s truly excited to be here especially now with Pronger.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 28, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say Clemmensen, he’s the reason New Jersey won the Atlantic.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jun 28, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. He is the perfect fit for this situation. He has shown that he can be the backup but come in and excel for long stretches of time. If Emery freaks out (which he wont. He has too much riding on this and is not that dumb. As mentioned before he will be seriously motivated to prove all the naysayers wrong), Clemmensen is reliable and can handle being the day-to-day guy. I am sure Homer has Clemmensen on his radar. I, at least, hope so . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 29, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good news . . .
Mirlte has a run down of the Free Agent goalies for this offseason.
It’s probably going to be a tough summer to be a goalie. There aren’t many teams searching for a starter, and there’s a lot of company in free agency, looking for a contract.
Bad news for them, great news for us. The goalies won’t have much of a bargaining chip . . .
It’s quite likely that more than half of these netminders don’t find an NHL roster spot next season (and several are headed for retirement) — especially with teams trying to save cash and use youngsters in the backup role. There should be bargains to be found among the veterans . . .
We may not be looking for a starting goalie, in the traditional sense, but whoever we sign, I am sure, will get a good amount of time. I feel like a lot of these goalies will take a pay cut just to get on a team. Makes life a little bit easier for Homer and the boys upstairs . . .
by flyrsfrk05 on Jun 29, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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