It's like March again: J-Bo in, Lupul out?

by Travis Hughes on Jun 8, 2009 7:48 PM EDT in Rumors

Having already lured free agent goalie Ray Emery to town, a signing that will be made official as soon as the free agent market opens, the Flyers need a backup goaltender and are looking for an upgrade on the blueline.

[Jay] Bouwmeester sits atop Philadelphia's wish list, but signing him will require another body to move.

The Daily News suggests the Flyers are interested in re-signing Mike Knuble, who can also become a UFA this summer.

According to the paper, the Flyers might try to move Joffrey Lupul and his annual salary of just over $2.31 million.

The major plus that comes with signing Emery and dumping Martin Biron is that the Flyers presumably clear almost two million in cap space for next season. A move of the streaky Lupul would give the Flyers a lot more cap flexibility in chasing after Bouwmeester, and they're going to need it considering at least five other teams are in the running for the free agent defenseman.

Other teams are also very interested in Knuble, should the Flyers not re-sign him before July 1. The Rangers are rumored to want to bring Knuble to Broadway for the second time in his career, although the Flyers are just as eager to keep his strong veteran presence in the Philadelphia locker room.

In my opinion, this is all good news. Losing Lupul could hurt the locker room in the same way that losing Scottie Upshall did. But from a hockey standpoint, if his loss means the gain of a player like Jay Bouwmeester, we'll forget about Lupul rather quickly.

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I like Joffery a lot — when he’s hot, he’s hot. But we all knew the Flyers were going to try to get rid of him because of his future cap hit — they had to. We have the depth to fill the void (healthy Briere, and more specifically Giroux), and even so, if offensive production is off a bit but we end up getting a JBO with his cap space, no problem whatsoever.

by Ben Feldman on Jun 8, 2009 8:00 PM EDT reply actions

Losing Lupul

If we lose Lupul, a couple things come into play.
Our RW lines look as follows:
L1: Knuble
L2: Lupul
L3: Giroux
L4: Asham

Obviously that’s a really strong top end of RW, but considering the difficulty that will exist in re-signing Knuble (coupled with the fact that he slowed down at the end of the year, which might be a sign of his age catching up to him), trading Lupul now might be disastrous. Giroux’s flexibility at RW and C is a great asset, and if we lose the ability to line him up at C in order to put him on a top 2 line at RW we are essentially creating new holes by fixing other holes.

Losing Lupul means that we’ll have to get a worse player for cheaper, which we might be able to do given our offensive talent, or signing an equivalent player for significantly more (Lupul’s contract is under market value for what he’d get on the FA). I know it’s anathema, but I’d much prefer losing Knuble to Lupul, or trading Briere for Price (frees up 4m+) type of thing.

I think the Emery signing indicates we’re close to acquiring another goalie. We’re not going to bank the season on him. My hope is that the other goalie is Carey Price, at the expense of maybe Danny Briere + a 1st or something. In that scenario, we get to keep Lupul, can sign Bouwmeester + a cheap FA 3rd line C (isn’t Jiri Hudler available?), and still have RW depth since Asham is serviceable on the 3rd line.

by Alon on Jun 8, 2009 8:02 PM EDT reply actions

What about JVR taking his place?

… isnt he a winger?

by Ant on Jun 8, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions

LW

Maybe he could be a lefty RW (not as easy as it sounds), but he’s primarily a LW/C. Not to mention he’s at least a year, maybe 2 years away from leaving camp with the big squad.

by Alon on Jun 8, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Thats my feeling. Don’t place JvR into any upcoming season plans. If he is impressive and surprises the club, making the team, then good. That is a welcomed and unplanned addition. But, I don’t think he is ready for NHL hockey and also think that a season with the Phantoms would be helpful for his development. And if they are lucky, pull a Giroux and grab him half way through the year when the inevitable injures surmount.

In regards to Lupul. dealing him would be a necessary evil. He is a good player and I wish his salary hit were much less. I loved him with Carter and Hartnell as they formed, disputably, one of the best lines in the league. But, at this point, a sacrifice HAS to be made for quality defense. That is how teams win Cups (a la the Red Wings) these days. It is a simple equation at this point: Scoring depths = focus on Defense. With Emery, supposedly signed, the Flyers have “solved” the goalie issues (until at least October) and now must push hard to fill the defensive holes that became particually evident during the final weeks of the season and playoffs.

by Mitchell Green on Jun 8, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions

i think a couple things

1) I agree with almost all of your analysis
2) My one point of contention is that we need to deal Lupul to upgrade the defense. We don’t. Sending Briere gives us more than enough cap space to make a legitimate run at Bouwmeester, let alone Komisarek. The Red Wings have both an exceptional D (built from within, in large part) and an exceptional O with a lot of 2 way players. Lupul does not fit that mold as well as, say, Richards or Carter or Gagne etc, but he does moreso than Briere, and he’s developing well in that area. Additionally, trading Briere / adding a defender means we can trade Randy Jones for whatever (someone would send a 5th round pick), and he is more expensive than Lupul (I’m not kidding). There’re ways we can upgrade every facet of the team, even cap space, just by spending our $$ more efficiently (i.e. not so much to Briere, the G spot (hah again!), and Jones), without trading Lupul.

by Alon on Jun 8, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed. I all for ditching Briere honestly, especially if we can keep Lups. I just hope that our power play does not suffer too much. Considering it was still tops in the league and Ol’ Danny Boy missed a considerable chunk of the season on the shelf, I am not too worried.

Good point . . .

by Mitchell Green on Jun 9, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions

Lupol costs more than Jones this year

Remember, Lupol signed an extention last year that starts to take affect this year, I think 4.5 mil, where as Jones is 2.5 – 2.75 mil? I know the sentiment for Jones, I tend to agree most of the time with it as well. Lupol is too hot and cold for me, and appears to be lazy a lot of times on the ice…so I would not oppose dealing Lupol. I’d rather have a healthy Briere for 6.5 than a healthy Lupol at 4.5. Especially because we can unload Lupol if we have to, don’t have as easy a time with Briere.

by Cokes_03 on Jun 9, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions

I think the Emery signing indicates we’re close to acquiring another goalie. We’re not going to bank the season on him. My hope is that the other goalie is Carey Price, at the expense of maybe Danny Briere + a 1st or something.

I was thinking/hoping this as well. If a Briere for Price type deal went down we’d have our 2nd goalie and save on cap space. Price could mature and develop a year behind Emery, and be good enough to step in in case Emery implodes. With that extra money we can sign Bouwmeester or Komisarek, and that 3rd line replacement.

by FredEx on Jun 8, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions

The more I think about it, the less I like trading Lupul. I honestly don’t see us resigning Knuble, and if we trade Lupul our fantastic scoring depth of last year just lost two 25 goal scorers. I know adding a shutdown defenseman is key, but scoring depth is critical too. Look at the Penguins floundering because they have Bill Guerin and Chris Kunitz with Crosby, Fedotenko and Talbot with Malkin. No scoring depth, and it shows. True, who knew Abdelkader would be a scoring machine, but Andreas Nodl is nowhere near ready to produce (although I think he impressed enough to be given a look, especially with the chances he created playing with Carter early) and Lupul is actually relatively cheap compared with market value. I am all for trading Danny, even if we can’t sign a FA center, with Powe and Ross being serviceable in order to get Price and Komisarek.

But something tells me this is a big upgrade over 08-09 while still leaving us in need of a winger or two:

Gagne – Richards – Giroux
Hartnell – Carter – Lupul
Maroon – Powe – Nodl
Carcillo – Ross – Asham

Parent – Timonen
Coburn – Komisarek
Sbisa – Carle

Emery
Price

by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 8, 2009 10:31 PM EDT reply actions

Oh, and obviously if JVR pulls a Giroux (Which, like flyrsfrk said, should not be expected but hoped for) we could fill one of the needs. Plus, cheap (?) FAs:

Mikael Samuelsson
Eric Fehr
Erik Christensen
Jiri Hudler
Chad LaRose
Mark Recchi
Dan Hinote

by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 8, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Mark Recchi?

No thanks.

Samuelsson will be targeted by many teams and will be hard to come by. Same is true with Hudler. Those guys’ value increases by virtue of the fact that they played with Detroit. When Pierre Lacroix was GM of the Avalanche, he used to make good deals this way – he’d trade his own okay guys for other teams’ better guys, and he’d say that “These okay guys know what it takes to win the Stanley Cup! You can’t pass this up!” So, Hudler’s and Samuelsson’s values go up too – especially if the Wings repeat this year.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jun 8, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions

While true,

they were in order of preference, with little knowledge what they will actually get on the market, but Samuelsson should be cheaper than Hudler, hence why I put him ahead. Either way, I don’t expect Samuelsson to cost more (or much more) than Knuble did this past year. And Eric Fehr is probably expensive, but he’s still really really young. Christensen is one-dimensional, but it’s offensively, so why not. And I put Recchi because… well… sentiment, experience, inexpensive, etc.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 9, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions

for some reason...

i’d like to see what would happen with Chad LaRose. He just kinda turned up over night and became a solid player for the Canes, esp. in their run for the Cup. (Maybe it was being on Day in the Life on the NHL network????) If he can turn into an R.J Umberger type player and posts solid reg. season numbers and becomes impact in the playoffs, link that to the fact he probably be a good low buy (possibly fill in for the shoes of Upshall as well) ….guy just seems like he could have alot of upside to him and provide alot more to a team then people realize. Of course, Hudler wouldn’t be bad either…

by PhillyPhan85 on Jun 9, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Hmmmm...

I’m not sure if this is a big upgrade or not. In this scenario, the Flyers keep 25 goals but lose between 55-60 (Briere and Knuble).

If this happens, do you start Emery or Price? If we get Price, who clearly needs a fresh start, would it be good for him to ride the pine in favor of 3MEPИ?

Also, if you get the slow Komisarek, you pair him with someone fast. Put him with Sbisa.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jun 8, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed all around

Except that we can expect significant strides in the GS dept from Giroux, Lupul, and even a guy like Richards. More pucks to Lupul + Giroux that would otherwise go to Briere/Knuble would mitigate that loss, probably to the tune of we’d only lose a “net” of 15 or so goals by replacing Briere with Powe and Knuble with Giroux (since the rest of the team would score more… More shots for Timonen, Coburn, Sbisa, Bouwmeester/Carle/whatever as well)

I also would expect Asham on the 3rd line protecting Powe/Maroon/whatever FA we sign for that line, and Nodl to develop more in AHL or on the 4th line.

by Alon on Jun 8, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions

I see your point

And I’m not sure it’s a big upgrade, but it shifts our strengths from deep but overpaid offense to talented and better defense. Similar to what Alon said, this would result in a net loss in GF, but I would imagine it is nothing similar to 55-60 with Giroux being a full-time NHL-er, adding Ross full time (29 goals in 64 games), and potentially having Patrick Maroon (23 goals in 80 games), Andreas Nodl, or Jonathan Matsumoto (29 goals in 78 games) Obviously, those stats won’t transfer 1 for 1, but Briere barely even played this year and, not to knock Knuble, but Carcillo could probably score 10-15 playing with Richards and Gagne. The scoring drop off wouldn’t be intolerable, especially considering…

We lighten the load on Timonen, keep our top 4 defensemen from last year and add the second best FA D-man out there in place of Andrew Alberts (under-rated, but very replacable) as well as Luca Sbisa in place of Randy Jones – enough said. We would now have 6 top-4 defensemen, not to mention Oskars Bartulis and Danny Syvret in the minors with all of those one and done’s we signed in March/April.

Lastly, I agree we couldn’t sit Price on the bench, but split time between them, work with Price, and let him know that he will still be around and starting next year, regardless of this year. Ease his mind and take pressure off, because gasp Jakub Kovar is ready to steal his job.

I agree, but as I said above, Maroon and Nodl are not NHL 3rd-liners right now. Add a cheap FA (maybe even Knuble if he stays affordable or Upshall) and see what happens, but the trade instantly solves our D problem, upgrades our goaltending (at least agree that Emery/Price are less expensive and just as capable/talented as Biron and Nitty) and eliminates Jones (Mike Rathje him if noone wants to pay) and Briere’s contracts.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 9, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions

Lupes for Upshall!

That would save the Flyers a little money, and it would bring back a well-liked player. Upshall can’t score as much as Lupes, but his feisty presence would create additional chances for Carter and Hartnell. Plus, Upshall was CLUTCH. He didn’t score a ton of goals, but each one seemed to be important. Who knows what impact he would have had in the Pittsburgh series?

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jun 8, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions

Wait, how legit are the Price for Briere (and whatever else) rumors?
I mean, I know we have been throwing this rumor around but I kinda just dismissed it as hearsay.
Is it just wishful thinking or have there been sources saying Montreal and Homer have been in contact regarding a Briere for Price swap?

by Mitchell Green on Jun 8, 2009 11:24 PM EDT reply actions

Price is as bad as Emery(as a locker room headache) and so far hasn’t shown as much talent, i know that he was considered a top 10 prospect but i see him as a bust. Plus Danny has great chem. with Giroux and Powe. i wouldn’t do this trade for any reason what-so-ever.

by JpH89 on Jun 8, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions

If you want to say Price won’t get any better, alright, that’s your opinion. But to call him a bust before his 22nd birthday is pretty ridiculous. I guess Marc Andre Fleury was a bust back when he was 20. I think that’s working out OK for the Pens. Price is good enough to compete right now, and should (presumably) continue to get better.

by FredEx on Jun 9, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions

There are sources

it was an espn.com rumor, with embers producing the smoke. Discussions were definitely had, but they’re still in that phase — discussions. Probably on hold til the draft shapes up more and the talent available at 21 becomes apparent.

As far as Price goes, it’s complete BS to say he’s a bust. He had a .920 save% last year, and this year still posted a .905%, which is respectable. Consider that he’s 22, and you have the makings of a superstar. He’s succeeded at every level, NHL included, and while there is a risk involved, it’s no more than with any goalie. He’s as sure a thing as there is as far as netminder prospects go.

by Alon on Jun 8, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

Quick, name the Top 5 goalies under 27 in the game right now. In no particular order: Cam Ward, Marc-Andre Fleury, Steve Mason, Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price? Who’s better? Simeon Varlamov, Mike Smith, Jonas Hiller, Pekka Rinne, Kari Lehtonen, Jonathan Quick? I don’t know, I cross Lehtonen off immediately, Mike Smith soon after, Pekka Rinne and Jonathan Quick next. I didn’t see much of Varlamov other than the Pens series where he was completely predictable and destroyed, but deserves judgment withheld. Jonas Hiller looked good but all of those goalies are franchise goalies. The only ones available on the market who are worthy of discussion are Price and maybe Mike Smith.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 9, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions