They're not stupid: Flyers knew the deal with Pronger contract
Since the details of Chris Pronger's seven-year contract extention came out last week, the Flyers have been widely ridiculed around the hockey world. People have called the deal a "blunder", a "mistake", "mind-boggling", and, quite simply, "silly."
All of the criticism stems from one fact -- the contract is an "over-35" deal, meaning that when Pronger likely retires before the contract is up, the Flyers will still be on the hook for his $4.985 million cap hit each year until the contract expires in 2016/17. The over-35 rule in the NHL's Collective Bargaining Agreement is, as James Mirtle mentioned in his analysis of this deal, "... aimed at idiot proofing the thing by protecting teams from (a) signing brutal deals and (b) circumventing the cap with throwaway years at the end of contracts."
The Flyers are doing both of those things. It's hard to argue that this isn't a brutal deal if the Flyers have Pronger's cap hit still haunting them two years after he's retired from hockey. And the structure of the contract -- front-loaded with cash in the early years, worth practically nothing in the later years -- proves that years six and seven are in fact "throwaway years."
To argue that the Flyers didn't know what they were doing, as many, including Larry Brooks of the New York Post, have done, is foolish. Paul Holmgren and assistant general manager Barry Hanrahan, the team's so-called "capologist", knew exactly what they were doing in signing Pronger's contract. Here's what Brooks had to say on the situation...
Philadelphia likely will never suffer the consequences for the massive blunder in which management agreed to pay $33.4 million of the total $34.9 million within the first five years of the extension. And thus would be on the hook for a $4.921 million cap hit in 2015-16 and 2016-17, even with the defenseman in expected retirement.
The Flyers will not take the hit because the CBA will be long extinct by that time, with another round of rollbacks and amnesty buyouts expected to bridge the gap between the current labor agreement and whatever comes next.
There are no guarantees, of course, but no one knows the fate of contracts that run beyond 2011-12, which is when the CBA will expire once the NHLPA exercises its pro-forma option to extend the deal through that season.
If Brooks can figure out that the current rules will probably not be the future rules, and that there will be "another round of rollbacks and amnesty buyouts," do you think the Flyers can't figure that out, too? The team knew exactly what they were doing, and they know that there is a contentious battle brewing in the years leading to 2012, when the next CBA will be hammered out between the league and the players' union. Those negotiations will likely yield that next round of amnesty buyouts, which means the Flyers probably won't have to keep Pronger under their salary cap following his retirement -- they'll just buy him out.
The Flyers are able to do that because they are in the favorable position of being a rich team in a salary capped world. While the Florida's and the Atlanta's and the Nashville's are working under a budget that is, in most cases much closer to the salary floor than the cap, Philadelphia can work to find loopholes in the rules that allow them to spend more than the salary cap stipulates.
These actions go against the intentions of the salary cap and they go against the intentions of the rules set in place to close these loopholes, like the 35-plus contract rule, and if you're a fan of a less-than-wealthy team in the NHL, it probably seems down right unfair.
Yes, that's a solid point. It's not fair that the Flyers are circumventing the rules in this fashion. It's also not fair that they charge $90 for a lower level ticket. But if they can charge that much for a ticket and still sell out, can you blame them?
And if they can get away with giving Chris Pronger this type of contract, can you really blame them?
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question..
does anyone else think that all this negative press and trash talk might actually motivate Chris Pronger that much more to be a complete menace on the Eastern Conference???
I agree with the article, posted something similar in the discussion of that article on Puck Daddy yesterday.
The really interesting thing is whether the rich clubs will use these types of contracts to basically bail themselves out.
I mean, there are a handful of these deals out there at the moment, but what if Burke, Holmgren, Sather, etc. just keep signing them. So that instead of five or six contracts like this, there are 15 or 20. They could essentially guarantee that the next CBA deals with getting those K’s off the respective caps.
Also, before training camp ends Carter’s agent better receive an offer from the Flyers for 20 years $80mil. (Last five years at $750k per.)
Way to use the same word twice with two different antecedents jackass…
I agree with you Hughes, commented on the Brooks article yesterday saying Holmgren was smart for jumping into the clearly soon to be created loophole.
The loophole
It could become a problem if it is used too much. I mean, what happens when the people creating the new CBA in 2012 decide they dont want to allow this huge loophole? What if they dont let teams buyout contracts? Or they set a limit on the amount of buyouts a team gets. Then signing Carter to 20 years looks like a downright shitty idea. I dont think its a smart idea to go back to the well too often on this, or it could blow up in our faces big time.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 13, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The more teams that do this the more likely it is to be bailed out.
agreed 100%. right now, though, there aren’t that many that have made this exact mistake. the hossa, zetterberg, datsyuk deals were all under-35. i’ve heard that tim thomas’ deal was done similarly to pronger’s. who else? two teams in the boat might not move the meter.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 13, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
All this fuss...
Why on earth is everyone assuming that Pronger’s going to retire at any particular time?!? He’s a HOCKEY PLAYER for god’s sake! The only thing that will keep him off the ice in the final years of his contract with the Flyers is a horrible injury! The kind that allows you to go on LTIR (see D. Hatcher, etc…) There is little you can complain about with getting this guy for 5 mil./yr, so long as it’s not a repeat of Paul Coffee or Vanbiesbrouck (why is Philly such an attractive place to go out to pasture?) but I’m all for hoping Pronger’s still got a couple of good, Crosby pounding, Ovechkin smashing years ahead of him. I know I for one will be a happy guy the first time he makes Crosby wear his own a$$ as a hat!
i’m still not sure how anyone (larry brooks, assistant GM, GM, “lawyers”) can safely assume these cap hits will come off the books. it’s a possibility, yes, but it’s still in the NHL’s power to make sure teams are penalized by the current letter of the law. future CBA negotiations are exactly that…negotiations to be held in the future.
but i don’t take issue with that premise as much as i do with the premise that flyers management “knew exactly what they were doing” and saying they didn’t is “foolish.” darren dreger at TSN had sources telling him the flyers disagreed with the NHL’s ruling, and only later that day did holmgren contradict that report. from dreger’s article:
The Flyers disagree and interpret the CBA language governing the “over 35” clause differently.
Sources say the Flyers’ lawyers are now aware of the league’s stance and are debating this issue.
so who were dreger’s sources? and why did the story change? it’s at least as possible that the flyers made a mistake and covered for themselves publicly once they realized the ramifications.
Enough with your idiotic argument. They knew what they were doing, that’s why the last two seasons are $550k. Pronger isn’t going to play in years six or seven and the Flyers have plans in place to remove him from the cap. They can’t detail those plans without running the risk of having the contract rejected for circumvention.
They knew what they were doing, that’s why the last two seasons are $550k.
or they didn’t know what they were doing, and that’s why the last two seasons are $550k. it’s not idiot to suggest it could be the latter, since dreger has sources confirming it.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 13, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
put another way: you and i agree that holmgren can’t speak honestly about this issue, but i’ll trust the anonymous sources that spoke to dreger since they have nothing to gain or lose publicly.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 13, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
also, at different points during the development of this story, you have been totally convinced of different scenarios….all of which had the flyers in the clear.
first, you were convinced the deal couldn’t be a 35-and-over contract because of those last two years at $550K (“The Flyers don’t sign this deal if it counts as a 35+ contract”).
then, after i posted the dreger story, you were convinced the flyers would challenge the NHL through arbitration…after all, it’s the flyers’ lawyers (or the “capologist” assitant GM) that consulted on the deal, and there’s a good chance they have the correct interpretation, not deputy commissioner bill daly who helped draft the CBA.
then, holmgren spoke to ken campbell directly, and once hearing that the flyers knew the deal was 35+, you decided it was obvious that management had identified one of three loopholes—retirement (impossible under the current CBA), buyout (impossible under the current CBA), or LTIR (very difficult, as NHL doctors will need to approve the injury directly)—as an easy way out and were going to take advantage of the lowered cap hit.
now, with larry brooks’ analysis (clearly superior to campbell’s), you are convinced the 35+ clause will suddenly be negotiated out of the CBA during the next round of negotiations, or all players that have existing contracts will be given amnesty. and of course that the flyers are somehow sure this will be the case, therefore taking the huge risk of choking on pronger’s $5M cap hit while he’s likely retired. this despite the fact that only a handful of teams have made this mistake (i count two, the bruins with thomas and the flyers with pronger, but i admit there might be more). and the geniuses in flyers camp are keeping mum about it, because anything else would be obvious circumvention of league rules. meanwhile, the league will sit idly and then bail the flyers out come the next CBA, even though this would in effect enable to the flyers to circumvent the cap.
so my question is this: why so much trust in flyers management? do you really think they’re the smartest guys in the room? i’m impressed by your loyalty to holmgren and his team, and i say that as a caps fan who couldn’t think more highly of caps GM george mcphee. you must really trust them to defend them at every turn no matter the newest wrinkle in the press.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 13, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
In a world where GM’s nearly lose RFA’s because they don’t know how to send a QA properly, I think it is entirely possible that Holmgren believed the Pronger contract would not be a 35+ contract since he was signing the extension before his 35th birthday.
As Natty Bumppo pointed out, there have been numerous reports that the Flyers front office disagreed with the ruling of the contract being 35+. There is a possibility of the issue going away with the new CBA but I wouldn’t want to bet nearly $5 million of potential dead cap space on a maybe.
That being said, the Flyers’ D corp will be extremely tough to play against for the next couple of seasons
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 13, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not even bothering to read your ridiculous diatribe. Go spend time trying to figure out how to assemble a winning team when one player is going to be taking up over 20% of the cap starting in 2010.
It’s really fucking simple: Pronger and Holmgren et al agreed Pronger will only play for five years. Everyone who signed that contract did so because they knew one or more of the following scenarios will take place:
1) A new CBA allows the team to not count the last two seasons of the contract against the cap.
2) Pronger can retire and not count against the cap because the CBA is being misinterpretted by the NHL.
3) If all else fails, Pronger goes on LTIR.
Holmgren cannot say this publicly or it’s circumvention and the contract gets torn up. If the CBA doesn’t provide relief, the Flyers will explore legal options five years from now when the issue has standing.
Why is this so fucking complicated for you to understand? There are no grand inconsticencies or contradictions. Every party of the contract agreed to a $550k salary the last two years because they all agreed that he won’t play those years. It’s just a matter of what basis the contract won’t count against the cap in years six and seven.
Mario…no need for such hysterics! Natty has done nothing but provide fodder for a thoughtful discussion, and this is one of the more interesting subjects to be discussed in the dead of the off season.
1) A new CBA allows the team to not count the last two seasons of the contract against the cap.
That is speculation at best. If I were a betting man, I would bet that the league would not retroactively let teams off the hook for blatant attempts to circumvent the Cap because it would only encourage further shenanigans during the next CBA
2) Pronger can retire and not count against the cap because the CBA is being misinterpretted by the NHL.
The NHL disagrees, and has bluntly said Pronger’s contract extension falls under the 35+ category. If Pronger retires the Flyers get stuck with the Cap Hit for the duration of the contract. That is the law of the current land.
3) If all else fails, Pronger goes on LTIR.
The problem is Pronger would need a legitimate LTI in order to go on LTIR. The NHL has doctors to help ensure teams aren’t abusing the LTIR option. Retiring and LTI are two different things.
Every party of the contract agreed to a $550k salary the last two years because they all agreed that he won’t play those years
I’m willing to bet that was probably agreed upon, but only because Holmgren thought it was NOT a 35 deal.
Unless something new is written into the new CBA, the Flyers are stuck with the Cap hit. I doubt very seriously the Flyers have a crystal ball or the Sports Almanac Biff Tannen used to make his fortune in Back To The Future 2, so either
1) Holmgren is hoping and praying that the 35+ clause somehow changes in the new CBA and decided to roll the dice
2) Holmgren knew the possibility existed that Pronger would retire leaving the team with dead cap space but decided that the Flyers had a chance to win a cup between 2010-2012 so it would be worth it
3) Holmgren goofed and thought the extension would not count as a 35+ contract.
Based on the well documented evidence that Natty provided above, I don’t see how anybody can come to any conclusion other than “Holmgren goofed”.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jul 13, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
First off, the idiot has already stated he’s a Caps fan and he just comes on this board everytime Pronger gets mentioned to whine about how jealous he is that some teams have this figured out better than others. He literally posts the same thing over and over in multiple topics. He’s just trolling.
Second, what Bill Daly says holds no weight as far as what the CBA means. The CBA is inherently contradictory on the issue and any team could take it to arbitration and have a strong case. The sentence in question says:
“if a player SIGNS a contract before his 35th birthday (which is measured by the June 30th of preceding the season in which the contract takes effect)”.
There is no clear way of interpretting that mess because it literally says two different things. When sentences have no plain meaning, a judge/arbitrator will generally throw them out of the contract.
Third, a 40 year old, 20 year veteran who has torn up at least one knee in his career will easily be deemed unfit to play. He’s missed two different half seasons with injuries (2000-01 he missed 51 games, 2002-03 he played only 5 games). He’ll need surgery, like most players when their careers end, to clean up loose tissue, bone chips, whichever of the normal injuries he suffers, and just not rehab it to get back into game shape (just like Hatcher last season) and go on LTIR. No medical doctor worth his AMA license is going to argue to clear a 40 year old to play NHL hockey.
We have two pieces of evidence:
1) An idiot reporter in Canada claiming he has confidential sources telling him things which made no sense and which he himself contradicted just hours later.
2) We have the actual fact that the last two years suspiciously pay only $570k per year, indicating that no one had any intention of actually honoring those two years.
you’ve said i was obsessed. you’ve called me an idiot (several times), a jackass, and a moron. i’ve responded with either discussion points or “have a great day.” i can’t find where i was “whining.” in fact, to the contrary, i think this entire scenario is fascinating and worthy of discussion, and i told you i was looking forward to watching ovechkin vs. pronger for the next 5-8 years. i fully realize i’m on a flyers board, and i’ve tried to be respectful of that. if this isn’t a place for debate, i’ll go somewhere else. enjoy your fiefdom, mario.
by Natty Bumppo on Jul 14, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Risky Assumption
“Those negotiations will likely yield that next round of amnesty buyouts, which means the Flyers probably won’t have to keep Pronger under their salary cap following his retirement — they’ll just buy him out.”
What if the new CBA is not nearly so difficult as the last one and they basically renew the current rules with some tinkering? What if the poorer teams push to close off the “sent a player to the AHL” loophole which encourages rich teams to hand out unwise contracts? I’m not sure I would have made the same wager that the Flyers management just did. Personally, I think they end taking the full cap hit for those last years.
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
What you’re saying is in the best interest of… nobody.
You think the PA wants to see Pronger retire, cease collecting a paycheck, and yet the Flyers not be able to spend a total of $9.8 million dollars to PA union members because of a retired player? Not in a million years. That’s basically $10mil of salary money that will just disappear back into comcast’s pockets instead of being paid out to NHLPA members. And that’s only Pronger’s money.
There is already a contingent of owners who will want to do away with the rule. And if the cap in fact comes down, they will have to find ways to roll back salaries or else the league will literally just fall into gridlock.
Who’s best interest is it to keep that clause?
"What if"
That’s all this whole discussion is based on. “What if” the CBA changes this way or that. It’s a complete and total guess.
It’s not a guess. It’s the logical conclusion. The PA doesn’t want to see millions in salary vanish. And basically since it was agreed upon there’s been a movement to simplify the CBA language.
Combined with the inevitable changes that will have to be made when the cap plummets after next season, it’s pretty clear the CBA is going to change, there will be a rollback on contracts, and there will be another round of buyouts. Otherwise, you’re gonna see a league with a salary cap of ~$45mil in 2010-2011 and contract values which exceed the total available cap space throughout the league. Which is, literally, not a scenario that can occur.

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