Where Have All the Scorers Gone? Or, Will the Flyers be Able to Score in 2009/2010?
There's been a lot of discussion and questioning lately about how the Flyers will net their goals in 2009-2010 after parting ways with key scoring RWers Joffrey Lupul and Mike Knuble in a trade for Chris Pronger and a cap crunch loss to Washington, respectively.
I figured I'd delve a little bit deeper into the issue, and see just how significant our scoring problem is. My hypothesis before doing any research is that I feel our guys will be able to replicate the scoring primarily internally, by some players stepping up / gaining more experience / being healthy. Those're all big risks, though, so here goes nothin.
If the analysis & statistics don't interest you (and they're all admittedly very rudimentary stats, and thus have big percentage of error expectation), I recommend skipping to the end, conveniently labeled "Conclusions" in bold.
The Losses
First, let's look at the primary scorers who will not be wearing Flyers OJ&B this year.
via www.sportsnet.ca
Joffrey Lupul Career Stats:
| Year | Team | GP | G | A | Pts | +/- | PIM | PPG | PPA | SHG | SHA | GW | GT | SOG | Pct | |
| 2003-04 | ANH | 75 | 13 | 21 | 34 | -6 | 28 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 137 | .095 | |
| 2005-06 | ANH | 81 | 28 | 25 | 53 | -13 | 48 | 12 | 11 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 296 | .095 | |
| 2006-07 | EDM | 81 | 16 | 12 | 28 | -29 | 45 | 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 172 | .093 | |
| 2007-08 | PHI | 56 | 20 | 26 | 46 | 2 | 35 | 7 | 14 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 176 | .114 | |
| 2008-09 | PHI | 79 | 25 | 25 | 50 | 1 | 58 | 6 | 9 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 194 | .129 | |
| Career | 372 | 102 | 109 | 211 | -45 | 214 | 34 | 41 | 2 | 0 | 12 | 1 | 975 | .105 |
Lupul is a guy who, despite inconsistency, is still just about a 30 goal scorer. This year, 30 goals or thereabouts is likely -- we can give him a range of 25-35 goals, most likely being ~30 (give or take 2 goals). The guy has a ton of offensive potential, and there's no real reason to expect regression.
Projected (Pessimistic): 28 goals
Next, we lost RW Mike Knuble.
via thephillyphour.files.wordpress.com
RW Mike Knuble's Career Stats:
| Year | Team | GP | G | A | Pts | +/- | PIM | PPG | PPA | SHG | SHA | GW | GT | SOG | Pct | |
| 1996-97 | DET | 9 | 1 | 0 | 1 | -1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 | .100 | |
| 1997-98 | DET | 53 | 7 | 6 | 13 | 2 | 16 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 54 | .130 | |
| 1998-99 | NYR | 82 | 15 | 20 | 35 | -7 | 26 | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 113 | .133 | |
| 1999-00 | NYR | 59 | 9 | 5 | 14 | -5 | 18 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 50 | .180 | |
| 1999-00 | BOS | 14 | 3 | 3 | 6 | -2 | 8 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 28 | .107 | |
| 2000-01 | BOS | 82 | 7 | 13 | 20 | 0 | 37 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 92 | .076 | |
| 2001-02 | BOS | 54 | 8 | 6 | 14 | 9 | 42 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 77 | .104 | |
| 2002-03 | BOS | 75 | 30 | 29 | 59 | 18 | 45 | 9 | 8 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 185 | .162 | |
| 2003-04 | BOS | 82 | 21 | 25 | 46 | 19 | 32 | 4 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 192 | .109 | |
| 2005-06 | PHI | 82 | 34 | 31 | 65 | 25 | 80 | 13 | 10 | 2 | 0 | 6 | 0 | 217 | .157 | |
| 2006-07 | PHI | 64 | 24 | 30 | 54 | 2 | 56 | 10 | 8 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 160 | .150 | |
| 2007-08 | PHI | 82 | 29 | 26 | 55 | -3 | 72 | 15 | 15 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 177 | .164 | |
| 2008-09 | PHI | 82 | 27 | 20 | 47 | 5 | 62 | 11 | 9 | 0 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 173 | .156 | |
| Career | 820 | 215 | 214 | 429 | 62 | 494 | 67 | 66 | 4 | 1 | 29 | 3 | 1528 | .141 |
GS last year: 27
Knuble's been scoring fewer and fewer goals per game since 2005 (and, really, .4 goals per game in '02-'03 was about equal to his high of .41 goals per game in '05-'06, not to mention in a lesser offensive era). The trend is obvious:
GS/game:
- '02/'03: .4
- '03/'04: .25
- '05/'06: .41
- '06-'07: .38
- '07/'08: .35
- '08/'09: .33
That's by no means bad. It's quite good. My only point is that we can expect further decline from Knuble this year -- it was even obvious last year as the season went on that his legs were giving out.
Projected GS '09/'10: .31 goals/game, for a total of 25 GS
Net Goals Lost (Projected): 53.
Current Situation: 2008/2009 Total GS = 260
2009/2010 Situation: 260 - 53 = 207
Now for the additions:
RW Ian Laperriere
Past 4 years:
| 2005-06 | COL | 82 | 21 | 24 | 45 | 3 | 116 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 133 | .158 | |
| 2006-07 | COL | 81 | 8 | 21 | 29 | 5 | 133 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 118 | .068 | |
| 2007-08 | COL | 70 | 4 | 15 | 19 | -5 | 140 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 68 | .059 | |
| 2008-09 | COL | 74 | 7 | 12 | 19 | 0 | 163 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 61 | .115 | |
What we can expect:
I'd be pleasantly surprised to see Laperriere score double digit goals again, let alone 21 goals. He's a defensive specialist at this point, although he does not shirk duties offensively. Given ~75 games played, and a better offensive team around him, I think we can expect a modest increase in GS.
Projected GS '09/'10: 10 goals
D Chris Pronger
Pronger Stats Last 4 years:
| 2005-06 | EDM | 80 | 12 | 44 | 56 | 2 | 74 | 10 | 32 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 155 | .077 | |
| 2006-07 | ANH | 66 | 13 | 46 | 59 | 27 | 69 | 8 | 28 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 166 | .078 | |
| 2007-08 | ANH | 72 | 12 | 31 | 43 | -1 | 128 | 8 | 22 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 182 | .066 | |
| 2008-09 | ANH | 82 | 11 | 37 | 48 | 0 | 88 | 4 | 24 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 196 | .056 | |
| Career | 1022 | 142 | 464 | 606 | 153 | 1457 | 74 | 252 | 2 | 14 | 24 | 3 | 2300 | .062 |
Going forward:
Pronger can't be expected to be Mike Green or even Zdeno Chara offensively, although his passing skills perhaps surpass both of those two players. Regardless, his goals scored probably won't be much different -- he puts up around 12 goals every year like clockwork, give or take a couple goals. We'll be a bit optimistic with his projection.
Projected '09/'10: 12 goals scored
Aside from that, we have not added too much. Given only these variables, the Flyers could be expected to score 229 goals this year (53 - 22 = 31, and 260 - 31 = 229).
We won't even discuss the defensive influx -- hopefully, a lot fewer goals will be going into our net this year compared to last year.
But we will discuss other important factors:
A) Danny Briere
I cannot understate the importance of a full healthy season from Danny. Career stats:
| 2005-06 | BUF | 48 | 25 | 33 | 58 | 3 | 48 | 11 | 17 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 147 | .170 | |
| 2006-07 | BUF | 81 | 32 | 63 | 95 | 17 | 89 | 9 | 21 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 0 | 234 | .137 | |
| 2007-08 | PHI | 79 | 31 | 41 | 72 | -22 | 68 | 14 | 23 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 182 | .170 | |
| 2008-09 | PHI | 29 | 11 | 14 | 25 | -1 | 26 | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 54 | .204 | |
| Career | 591 | 204 | 269 | 473 | -28 | 459 | 81 | 114 | 0 | 2 | 28 | 3 | 1287 | .159 |
Goals per game for the last 4 years: .42.
If we see a full healthy season from Danny, that's 34 goals. I think he will be healthier this season, but 34 seems a stretch.
'09/'10 projected: 30 goals scored
B) RW/C Claude Giroux
via www.sportsnet.ca
Claude's game really came on towards the end of the year. He scored 17 goals in the AHL last year, and 9 goals in the NHL, for 26 goals in 75 games played. True, the NHL GS is not the same as the AHL GS, but that's to be expected for a rookie -- I don't think 26 goals is a stretch for Claude this year. After all, he scored 9 in 42 games last year as a rookie, so 20 in 82 is almost expected if he doesn't improve at all -- and already, in the playoffs, improvement was evident. I'll be cautiously optimistic with Claude, and say that he equals Knuble's GS production from last year.
'09/'10 projected: 27 GS.
Suddenly, we've now added 37 more goals to the net output, bringing our projected total from 229 to 266.
If we go even more cautious on Briere (let's say, 25 GS) and Giroux (say, 23 GS), that brings the total down to 257.
Caveats: It may be unfair to expect Jeff Carter to remain a 45+ goal scorer, but then again, Coburn can be expected to put a couple more in net (ditto Carle), and Darroll Powe might even net 2 or 3 more this year. Hartnell having another 30 also seems optimistic, but it's possible. All things considered, as is the Flyers seem fairly likely to put in at least 250 goals.
Conclusion:
We've taken an offensive hit compared to what we would have if Knuble & Lupul were still Flyers, but I expect that the net effect on GS will be relatively low -- we still should put in around 255, give or take around 10-15 goals, and that is a fairly pessimistic projection. Last year, we put in 260 with Lupul & Knuble. This year, we oughta be able to replicate with full seasons from Briere & Giroux.
'08/'09 GS: 260
'09/'10 Projected GS: 255, +/- 10
We are, on the whole, about the same offensively as of right now as our net team effort was last year. This is assuming a whole lot of things you can't assume (no regression or injuries, for example), but it's also neglecting any positives (maybe an offensive breakout from a player or two or three -- why shouldn't Gagne, Giroux, and Richards each put up 35 goals, for example?), so on the whole I'd expect our GS to be within that 255 area.
This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
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Comments
Carcillo
If he gets his head out of his ass and starts playing smarter hockey (by that I mean less penalties of course), I think he could put in 15. The key is keeping him on the ice.
by philiafan14364 on Jul 15, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe!
i’d guess that given age we can actually expect a modest goal increase in a bunch of players, Carcillo included. I didn’t want to be too optimistic though because of the huge caveat that injury likelihood and regression aren’t being looked at
by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
Good stuff Alon. Hopefully we’ll score about as much as we did last year while cutting down on goals against. And you know what THAT means. It means that Savage Henry has cashed his check… and we’re gonna rip his lungs out.
By that I mean “The Flyers will have a better year.” Sorry, Hunter S. Thompson / Benicio Del Toro on the brain.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jul 15, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pronger’s offensive capabilities are very underestimated. you cant just look at goals, he puts up almost as many assists as Timonen year to year. Lupol only had 2 more points than Pronger last season.
Coburn should have a big year given that it’s a contract year. Briere also needs to have a big year. In his two years in Philly he’s shown flashes but he’s been largely inconsistent, leaving a lot of us (most certainly myself) to question that 6.5 milion dollar cap hit.
by njh3293 on Jul 15, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're absolutely correct
This is just a blanket look. More in-depth might or might not follow… i’m pretty busy, but if anyone else wants to look into it I’m sure it would be very worthwhile, otherwise maybe if I get a few hours over the next couple weeks I’ll try to put together something more statistically sound and supported using some of the fancier stats from puck prospectus & behind the net.
by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice
But I would have liked to see an analysis on more than just goals scored. As njh said, there is a lot more to a team’s scoring than the sum of it’s parts (individual goals). Overall, I like what you did, but I don’t think it’s black and white. I think your conclusion is correct – we should expect only a slight drop off in goals, hope for a slight increase – but there is a lot more to it than that.
Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2009 3:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
As I said (I think… I had some trouble with the quotation button and had to repaste the thing 3 times or so), GS is a very simplistic way of gauging the offense. To be reaaally accurate, I should be looking at things like quality of competition / linemates / etc. However, it’s a rough guestimate, and I’d be very surprised if we fell very far from the standard deviation I highighted (+/- 10 goals from ~255 goals).
Yes, Pronger will rack up points beyond goals. So will guys like Giroux & Briere. Those assists will have to come from somewhere. But, I figured, goals scored in a quick and dirty analysis will be a better predictor of the number of goals your team scores, as opposed to assists, which due to the last-2-to-touch rule can become very tricky. Factoring assists in would raise our GS projections, but then again, we’d begin to have to think about stuff like injuries/regression even more. Rather than delve hours worth into it (a worthwhile procedure, certainly, but a difficult one) I figured a survey type view would be okay
by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...
I definitely agree that the potential from having Briere and Giroux at the NHL level all season at very least equals the loss of Lupul and Knuble. And the upside of all those potential assists from Pronger – if we assume that stats-wise he replaces Andrew Alberts (13 pts in 79 games) in the rotation – is that you may have even MORE scoring up front as the break-out game gets faster and the puck remains in Flyer control as they cross neutral ice … something that was a bit of a problem last year. If you can’t get the puck up the ice, it doesn’t matter WHO is there in front of the net! In fact, playing some guys on the wing who can also center (Giroux and Briere) helps your transition game as well. So I am predicting that the scoring will be more balanced this year, in that more Flyers goals will be scored at full-strength and maybe less on the power play due to the lack of a crease-plant like Knuble. And then if the addition of Pronger and Emery reduce the goals-against numbers … WOW. I just want to see training camp start!!!
by penguinsfan on Jul 15, 2009 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
Could definitely be true. We ought to have an even better transition game this year than last year, if for no other reason than we have replaced a liability (Lupul, who at best is just okay defensively) with a huge strength (Lappy, who is a dominant defensive forward)
As far as PP & even strength, I like your even strength hypothesis, but I think we’re going to see similar #s on the PP as well. Gagne + Briere has always been devastating, and adding a Briere 2.0 to the PP in place of Knuble (i.e. Giroux) will make for 2 very balanced attacks. Maybe we’ll have a few fewer knock ins from the crease, but I bet we have a few more wristers from the slot, breakaway goals, and tic-tac-toes.
by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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