Broad Street Hockey: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: ACC Power Rankings: 2.8

Where Have All the Scorers Gone? Or, Will the Flyers be Able to Score in 2009/2010?

There's been a lot of discussion and questioning lately about how the Flyers will net their goals in 2009-2010 after parting ways with key scoring RWers Joffrey Lupul and Mike Knuble in a trade for Chris Pronger and a cap crunch loss to Washington, respectively.

I figured I'd delve a little bit deeper into the issue, and see just how significant our scoring problem is. My hypothesis before doing any research is that I feel our guys will be able to replicate the scoring primarily internally, by some players stepping up / gaining more experience / being healthy. Those're all big risks, though, so here goes nothin.

If the analysis & statistics don't interest you (and they're all admittedly very rudimentary stats, and thus have big percentage of error expectation), I recommend skipping to the end, conveniently labeled "Conclusions" in bold.

Star-divide

 

The Losses

First, let's look at the primary scorers who will not be wearing Flyers OJ&B this year.

Lupul_joffrey_getty_260_medium

via www.sportsnet.ca

Joffrey Lupul Career Stats:

Year Team GP G A Pts +/- PIM PPG PPA SHG SHA GW GT SOG Pct  
 2003-04 ANH 75 13 21 34 -6 28 4 4 0 0 2 1 137 .095  
 2005-06 ANH 81 28 25 53 -13 48 12 11 2 0 2 0 296 .095  
 2006-07 EDM 81 16 12 28 -29 45 5 3 0 0 1 0 172 .093  
 2007-08 PHI 56 20 26 46 2 35 7 14 0 0 3 0 176 .114  
 2008-09 PHI 79 25 25 50 1 58 6 9 0 0 4 0 194 .129  
 Career   372 102 109 211 -45 214 34 41 2 0 12 1 975 .105  

 

Lupul is a guy who, despite inconsistency, is still just about a 30 goal scorer. This year, 30 goals or thereabouts is likely -- we can give him a range of 25-35 goals, most likely being ~30 (give or take 2 goals). The guy has a ton of offensive potential, and there's no real reason to expect regression.

Projected (Pessimistic): 28 goals

 

Next, we lost RW Mike Knuble.

Knuble-action-phi1_medium

via thephillyphour.files.wordpress.com

RW Mike Knuble's Career Stats:

Year Team GP G A Pts +/- PIM PPG PPA SHG SHA GW GT SOG Pct  
 1996-97 DET 9 1 0 1 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 10 .100  
 1997-98 DET 53 7 6 13 2 16 0 0 0 0 0 0 54 .130  
 1998-99 NYR 82 15 20 35 -7 26 3 6 0 0 1 0 113 .133  
 1999-00 NYR 59 9 5 14 -5 18 1 0 0 0 1 0 50 .180  
 1999-00 BOS 14 3 3 6 -2 8 1 1 0 0 1 0 28 .107  
 2000-01 BOS 82 7 13 20 0 37 0 1 1 0 1 1 92 .076  
 2001-02 BOS 54 8 6 14 9 42 0 1 0 0 2 0 77 .104  
 2002-03 BOS 75 30 29 59 18 45 9 8 0 0 4 1 185 .162  
 2003-04 BOS 82 21 25 46 19 32 4 7 0 0 3 1 192 .109  
 2005-06 PHI 82 34 31 65 25 80 13 10 2 0 6 0 217 .157  
 2006-07 PHI 64 24 30 54 2 56 10 8 0 0 1 0 160 .150  
 2007-08 PHI 82 29 26 55 -3 72 15 15 1 0 3 0 177 .164  
 2008-09 PHI 82 27 20 47 5 62 11 9 0 1 6 0 173 .156  
 Career   820 215 214 429 62 494 67 66 4 1 29 3 1528 .141  

GS last year: 27

Knuble's been scoring fewer and fewer goals per game since 2005 (and, really, .4 goals per game in '02-'03 was about equal to his high of .41 goals per game in '05-'06, not to mention in a lesser offensive era). The trend is obvious:

GS/game:

  • '02/'03: .4
  • '03/'04: .25
  • '05/'06: .41
  • '06-'07: .38
  • '07/'08: .35
  • '08/'09: .33

That's by no means bad. It's quite good. My only point is that we can expect further decline from Knuble this year -- it was even obvious last year as the season went on that his legs were giving out.

Projected GS '09/'10: .31 goals/game, for a total of 25 GS

Net Goals Lost (Projected): 53.

Current Situation: 2008/2009 Total GS = 260

2009/2010 Situation: 260 - 53 = 207

Now for the additions:


RW Ian Laperriere

Past 4 years:

 2005-06 COL 82 21 24 45 3 116 1 0 1 1 3 0 133 .158  
 2006-07 COL 81 8 21 29 5 133 0 0 0 1 0 0 118 .068  
 2007-08 COL 70 4 15 19 -5 140 0 0 0 0 1 0 68 .059  
 2008-09 COL 74 7 12 19 0 163 0 0 0 1 0 0 61 .115  

What we can expect:

I'd be pleasantly surprised to see Laperriere score double digit goals again, let alone 21 goals. He's a defensive specialist at this point, although he does not shirk duties offensively. Given ~75 games played, and a better offensive team around him, I think we can expect a modest increase in GS.

Projected GS '09/'10: 10 goals

 

D Chris Pronger

15pair1_medium

via images.usatoday.com

Pronger Stats Last 4 years:

2005-06 EDM 80 12 44 56 2 74 10 32 0 0 3 0 155 .077  
 2006-07 ANH 66 13 46 59 27 69 8 28 0 0 2 0 166 .078  
 2007-08 ANH 72 12 31 43 -1 128 8 22 0 1 4 0 182 .066  
 2008-09 ANH 82 11 37 48 0 88 4 24 0 1 2 0 196 .056  
 Career   1022 142 464 606 153 1457 74 252 2 14 24 3 2300 .062  

 

Going forward:

Pronger can't be expected to be Mike Green or even Zdeno Chara offensively, although his passing skills perhaps surpass both of those two players. Regardless, his goals scored probably won't be much different -- he puts up around 12 goals every year like clockwork, give or take a couple goals. We'll be a bit optimistic with his projection.

Projected '09/'10: 12 goals scored

Aside from that, we have not added too much. Given only these variables, the Flyers could be expected to score 229 goals this year (53 - 22 = 31, and 260 - 31 = 229).

We won't even discuss the defensive influx -- hopefully, a lot fewer goals will be going into our net this year compared to last year.

But we will discuss other important factors:

A) Danny Briere

 Briere-headshot_medium

via thefieldofplay.com


I cannot understate the importance of a full healthy season from Danny. Career stats:

2005-06 BUF 48 25 33 58 3 48 11 17 0 1 4 0 147 .170  
 2006-07 BUF 81 32 63 95 17 89 9 21 0 0 6 0 234 .137  
 2007-08 PHI 79 31 41 72 -22 68 14 23 0 1 3 0 182 .170  
 2008-09 PHI 29 11 14 25 -1 26 4 6 0 0 0 0 54 .204  
 Career   591 204 269 473 -28 459 81 114 0 2 28 3 1287 .159  

 

Goals per game for the last 4 years: .42.

If we see a full healthy season from Danny, that's 34 goals. I think he will be healthier this season, but 34 seems a stretch.

'09/'10 projected: 30 goals scored

 

B) RW/C Claude Giroux

Giroux_claude_getty_400_medium

via www.sportsnet.ca

Claude's game really came on towards the end of the year. He scored 17 goals in the AHL last year, and 9 goals in the NHL, for 26 goals in 75 games played. True, the NHL GS is not the same as the AHL GS, but that's to be expected for a rookie -- I don't think 26 goals is a stretch for Claude this year. After all, he scored 9 in 42 games last year as a rookie, so 20 in 82 is almost expected if he doesn't improve at all -- and already, in the playoffs, improvement was evident. I'll be cautiously optimistic with Claude, and say that he equals Knuble's GS production from last year.

'09/'10 projected: 27 GS.

Suddenly, we've now added 37 more goals to the net output, bringing our projected total from 229 to 266.

If we go even more cautious on Briere (let's say, 25 GS) and Giroux (say, 23 GS), that brings the total down to 257.

Caveats: It may be unfair to expect Jeff Carter to remain a 45+ goal scorer, but then again, Coburn can be expected to put a couple more in net (ditto Carle), and Darroll Powe might even net 2 or 3 more this year. Hartnell having another 30 also seems optimistic, but it's possible. All things considered, as is the Flyers seem fairly likely to put in at least 250 goals.

 

Conclusion:

We've taken an offensive hit compared to what we would have if Knuble & Lupul were still Flyers, but I expect that the net effect on GS will be relatively low -- we still should put in around 255, give or take around 10-15 goals, and that is a fairly pessimistic projection. Last year, we put in 260 with Lupul & Knuble. This year, we oughta be able to replicate with full seasons from Briere & Giroux.

'08/'09 GS: 260

'09/'10 Projected GS: 255, +/- 10

We are, on the whole, about the same offensively as of right now as our net team effort was last year. This is assuming a whole lot of things you can't assume (no regression or injuries, for example), but it's also neglecting any positives (maybe an offensive breakout from a player or two or three -- why shouldn't Gagne, Giroux, and Richards each put up 35 goals, for example?), so on the whole I'd expect our GS to be within that 255 area.

This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.

0 recs  |  Comment 10 comments  |  Add comment

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Carcillo

If he gets his head out of his ass and starts playing smarter hockey (by that I mean less penalties of course), I think he could put in 15. The key is keeping him on the ice.

by philiafan14364 on Jul 15, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

maybe!

i’d guess that given age we can actually expect a modest goal increase in a bunch of players, Carcillo included. I didn’t want to be too optimistic though because of the huge caveat that injury likelihood and regression aren’t being looked at

by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you

Good stuff Alon. Hopefully we’ll score about as much as we did last year while cutting down on goals against. And you know what THAT means. It means that Savage Henry has cashed his check… and we’re gonna rip his lungs out.

By that I mean “The Flyers will have a better year.” Sorry, Hunter S. Thompson / Benicio Del Toro on the brain.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jul 15, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No prob

yeah, doing this went a long way to making me feel better about our offense. I still think we need a little more depth (i.e. another scoring RW) but I’m not scared poopless and I’m glad my hunch was basically ballpark.

by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pronger’s offensive capabilities are very underestimated. you cant just look at goals, he puts up almost as many assists as Timonen year to year. Lupol only had 2 more points than Pronger last season.

Coburn should have a big year given that it’s a contract year. Briere also needs to have a big year. In his two years in Philly he’s shown flashes but he’s been largely inconsistent, leaving a lot of us (most certainly myself) to question that 6.5 milion dollar cap hit.

by njh3293 on Jul 15, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You're absolutely correct

This is just a blanket look. More in-depth might or might not follow… i’m pretty busy, but if anyone else wants to look into it I’m sure it would be very worthwhile, otherwise maybe if I get a few hours over the next couple weeks I’ll try to put together something more statistically sound and supported using some of the fancier stats from puck prospectus & behind the net.

by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very nice

But I would have liked to see an analysis on more than just goals scored. As njh said, there is a lot more to a team’s scoring than the sum of it’s parts (individual goals). Overall, I like what you did, but I don’t think it’s black and white. I think your conclusion is correct – we should expect only a slight drop off in goals, hope for a slight increase – but there is a lot more to it than that.

Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 15, 2009 3:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

As I said (I think… I had some trouble with the quotation button and had to repaste the thing 3 times or so), GS is a very simplistic way of gauging the offense. To be reaaally accurate, I should be looking at things like quality of competition / linemates / etc. However, it’s a rough guestimate, and I’d be very surprised if we fell very far from the standard deviation I highighted (+/- 10 goals from ~255 goals).

Yes, Pronger will rack up points beyond goals. So will guys like Giroux & Briere. Those assists will have to come from somewhere. But, I figured, goals scored in a quick and dirty analysis will be a better predictor of the number of goals your team scores, as opposed to assists, which due to the last-2-to-touch rule can become very tricky. Factoring assists in would raise our GS projections, but then again, we’d begin to have to think about stuff like injuries/regression even more. Rather than delve hours worth into it (a worthwhile procedure, certainly, but a difficult one) I figured a survey type view would be okay

by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm...

I definitely agree that the potential from having Briere and Giroux at the NHL level all season at very least equals the loss of Lupul and Knuble. And the upside of all those potential assists from Pronger – if we assume that stats-wise he replaces Andrew Alberts (13 pts in 79 games) in the rotation – is that you may have even MORE scoring up front as the break-out game gets faster and the puck remains in Flyer control as they cross neutral ice … something that was a bit of a problem last year. If you can’t get the puck up the ice, it doesn’t matter WHO is there in front of the net! In fact, playing some guys on the wing who can also center (Giroux and Briere) helps your transition game as well. So I am predicting that the scoring will be more balanced this year, in that more Flyers goals will be scored at full-strength and maybe less on the power play due to the lack of a crease-plant like Knuble. And then if the addition of Pronger and Emery reduce the goals-against numbers … WOW. I just want to see training camp start!!!

by penguinsfan on Jul 15, 2009 4:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Interesting

Could definitely be true. We ought to have an even better transition game this year than last year, if for no other reason than we have replaced a liability (Lupul, who at best is just okay defensively) with a huge strength (Lappy, who is a dominant defensive forward)

As far as PP & even strength, I like your even strength hypothesis, but I think we’re going to see similar #s on the PP as well. Gagne + Briere has always been devastating, and adding a Briere 2.0 to the PP in place of Knuble (i.e. Giroux) will make for 2 very balanced attacks. Maybe we’ll have a few fewer knock ins from the crease, but I bet we have a few more wristers from the slot, breakaway goals, and tic-tac-toes.

by Alon on Jul 16, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs


User Tools

All the Philadelphia Flyers news and commentary that's fit to print.
Start posting about the Flyers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Assholeheart_small
Calling Time Out.

Recent FanPosts

Flyers_small
My Bi-Polar Hockey team
Small
MarioD's Soap Box
Small
Changing the points system
Flyerhomer_small
Tired & Confused
Watchmenfacebutton_small
Fantasy Hockey Shout Out
Flyers_small
Bitter Bitter Bitter.
Yaiso_small
Problem solving, angry blogger style.
Flyerhomer_small
Lines
Small
I was right and wrong.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Atlantic Standings

GP W L OTL PT
New Jersey 58 36 20 2 74
Pittsburgh 59 35 22 2 72
Philadelphia 57 29 25 3 61
New York Rangers 59 26 26 7 59
New York Islanders 58 23 27 8 54

(updated 2.9.2010 at 9:00 AM EST)

29 - 25 - 3

Won 1


Managing Editor

Travis_headshot_2_small Travis Hughes

Staff Writers

Think_sc_cropped_small Geoff Detweiler

Me_minus_kbond_small Ben Rothenberg

Adirondack Correspondent

Small Dan Morency