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Around SBN: NFL Roundtable: Which Draft Pick Is Most Likely To Bust?

Ranking the Flyers: Number 2

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With Mike Richards handily winning most valuable Flyer, it's time to move on to the second most valuable. 

To reiterate, we are asking you the reader to rank the Flyers in terms of value.  Who is the most valuable player on the Flyers, who is the second most valuable, and so on. 

You may ask what valuable means, but we won't define it for you.  It means what you think it means.  Put another way, if you could only keep one of the remaining players - because of what he brings on the ice or off it, his upside, what he could fetch in a trade, and so on - who would it be? 

Defend your vote in the comments.  Let's find out #2.

Poll
Who is the SECOND most valuable Flyer?
Braydon Coburn
9 votes
Randy Jones
2 votes
Simon Gagne
37 votes
Dan Carcillo
3 votes
Ian Laperriere
3 votes
Jeff Carter
185 votes
Scott Hartnell
9 votes
Chris Pronger
132 votes
Matt Carle
1 votes
Claude Giroux
46 votes
Ray Emery
16 votes
Riley Cote
0 votes
Brian Boucher
3 votes
Darroll Powe
0 votes
Kimmo Timonen
244 votes
Arron Asham
1 votes
Danny Briere
6 votes
Ole-Kristian Tollefsen
1 votes
Ryan Parent
2 votes
James van Riemsdyk
4 votes

704 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 40 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I agree with MarioD. I don’t see how Kimmo is more valuable than Pronger. He’s less talented and equally as old, and as expensive.

At least in my opinion.

by FredEx on Aug 26, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Wow, count me surprised by the voting. I know we haven’t seen Pronger play a minute of gametime yet, but if Kimmo goes down, can we honestly say that we take a huge regression back?

Carter deserves some consideration, but once again, I find his play/passion for the game, a little lacking.

Pronger is going to be depended upon in so many areas this coming season. From his veteran leadership to his mean streak on the ice.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Aug 26, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions  

I voted for Pronger, but there is significant merit to Timonen. Last year when he was out for just a few games, we did take a huge regression back. Obviously with Pronger, losing Timonen for a little while shouldn’t produce the same result, but he’s incredibly important to this team.

by Ben Feldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is clearly people who never bothered to watch anyone other than the Flyers play. Since Pronger spent the last decade plus in the western conference, they don’t know him.

Just for the fun of murdering my analogy: The people who like Kimmo over Pronger are the same people who screamed bloody murder when the Phils passed on Roy Halladay.

by MarioD on Aug 26, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions  

I think there is some merit to vote for Emery. I mean if he’s really, really awful and Boucher is really just a solid backup, and the Flyers become mediocre, couldn’t you justify that goaltending spot is worthy of an MVP vote and by extension, that guy is currently Emery?

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Aug 26, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if he’s really awful, the Flyers wouldn’t become mediocre. See: Red Wings, Detroit, 2008 to Present.

by MarioD on Aug 26, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

That might hold true...

… if the Flyers play a system as airtight and cohesive as Detroit. John Stevens is no Mike Babcock.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 26, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pronger and Kimmo

The fact that we got Pronger diminishes both his and Kimmo’s value to the team. If one of those guys is missing we are still okay because of the great defense depth. You lose Richards or Carter everything gets screwed up for the forward lines. After the top two centers I think the top 2 defenseman come next. Timmo over Pronger because we haven’t seen what Pronger can do or will mean for this team.

by chrislanci on Aug 26, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions  

The guy has played 15 NHL seasons. It doesn’t take a stroke of genius to know exactly what he’ll do for this team.

by MarioD on Aug 26, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not saying a vote for Pronger is necessarily a bad vote, but you can’t predict anything with 100% certainty before he even practices with the team. People watched Briere’s performance in the All-Star game before we signed him, and had higher expectations for him than he has delivered so far. I don’t expect anything like that to happen with Pronger, but nothing is ever a guarantee. I realize Briere had less years of being great than Pronger, but you can’t say anyone is infallible, no matter what their reputation is.

by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 26, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bleh

tired argument. Briere has delivered almost to the dot the point totals per game he has delivered throughout his career. His stats are almost the perfect model of consistency.

Pronger is what he is, and we can and should make basically accurate predictions as to what he’ll bring to the team. Which is to say, more than Timmonen given equal health etc.

by Alon on Aug 26, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree about Danny

A point per game is what we got him for and that is what he delivered. If you think we signed him to check opposing centers and play defense than you might have also thought we got him to fight opposing tough guys and fly the team plane.

by chrislanci on Aug 27, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would say Pronger 4th or 5th behind the Kimmo and maybe Emery (goalies are kind of important) of those 15 years in the NHL I only seen him play a handful of games so I don’t thing I can fairly rate what he means to the team besides. Don’t get me wrong I love getting in Pronger and can’t wait to see him play but rating him on speculation is not something I want to do.

by chrislanci on Aug 27, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

flyers have had nothing of the likes of pronger in their whole history…

by fitzy first on Aug 26, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

At this moment, I agree with chris on ranking Kimmo higher than Pronger. Given that Pronger hasn’t been integrated into the team yet on a personal level, at the time, the loss of Kimmo would have a greater effect on team chemistry than a loss on Pronger, and should be considered as part of his value. We all saw what chemistry can do to this team when Upshall was traded.

by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 26, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Careful

You can’t just chalk that up to chemistry. A whole lot of things happened, and to be honest we basically finished exactly where our stats predicted we would. We had ~the same GS & GA as the Pens, and finished with ~the same point totals, and played about evenly for most of our series with them (ultimately losing because of a bad-luck slump from our top scoring forwards). I don’t buy that Upshall being a Flyer meant us getting by the Penguins this year — MAYBE we would have finished with the 4th seed instead of the 5th, but the Penguins were simply a better team because of their own improvement, rather than anything on our end.

by Alon on Aug 26, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t mean to say chemistry was the only factor, but it is a factor and it does affect the team. It matters in every team sport, and while it’s not the single most important factor, it should be considered.

by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 26, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay

Sure, it could be considered. How? I think the best logical argument is: if chemistry has an effect on team performance, and if team performance is reflected by the summation of the player performance (the latter undeniably true, the former arguable), and if summation of player performance is reflected by each player’s individual performances added together (a rewording of the original), then chemistry has an effect on individual performances. Therefore, the only way an ethereal concept such as “Chemistry” could be measured would be by measuring with a large sample size the effects of the loss of a certain player via looking at the stats before and after the player left, somehow holding things like age, quality of competition, and quality of teammates constant relatively over a large sample size. Then you’d get the player’s effect on chemistry isolated.

Possible? Yeah, somewhat. Really difficult, and basically impossible to say with complete certainty of the G or A stats. But we can make basic generalizations:

1) If Chemistry really exists, the Flyers should have performed worse after Scottie Upshall (deemed a boon to chemistry) was replaced by Dan Carcillo (deemed a boon, but less so than Upshall) independent of Carcillo & Upshall’s performance. Essentially, we’re saying that one man being nicer than another man or meshing with teammates because of a common interest in booze or rock music or yachts or because one’s style of play makes them perform better on ice with certain other players. This isn’t as farfetched as it sounds, really — the Gagne/Richards/Knuble line last year featured three different styles of play that meshed pretty well together since each player had a different role.

2) Chemistry is somehow different from roles. The aforementioned G/R/K line might just as easily been successful due to that differentiated role system of each player having to do only a few things really well rather than many things pretty well, as due to each of the players liking each other (which is what chemistry seems to imply, since Pronger & Timonen play the same position and role but people seem concerned over how Pronger will effect team chemistry/mesh with his teammates/how this will effect his performance)

The Flyers won 34 games by March 3 (Upshall was traded March 4), out of 62 games played, for a 54.8% winning percentage.

They then went 9-10 (47.3% winning percentage) the rest of the way. Seems drastic, no?

No. The Flyers went 10-10 the first 20 games, 11-9 the second, and 12-8 the third. 9-10 was within the realistic realm of probability for any month. In the 12-8 set, Upshall registered 1 goal out of the goals scored in the 12 games the Flyers won (1 out of the 49 scored in that stretch), and registered a point in 4 out of the 12 games (33%). They scored 4.08 goals per win. After Upshall was traded, the Flyers scored 42 goals in their 9 wins, for 4.67 goals per win. They gave up 5.25 goals per loss when they went 12-8, and then 3.5 goals given up per loss after Upshall was traded.

(calculated from hockey-reference.com)

This shows a couple things:
1) the power of small samples
2) that Upshall’s loss didn’t make our losses smaller, nor our wins bigger.

Those are hints saying that Upshall didn’t really seem to demonstrably effect the players around him, albeit by no means the best hints and certainly not proof. But I very much doubt that the loss of Upshall played any statistically or chemically (chemistry-related) significant role in our lackluster finish or early exit.

by Alon on Aug 26, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really? They didn’t play as hard because they were pining for Scotty fucking Upshall? Give me a break.

If the trade of Upshall had any impact on this team, Mike Richards should’ve been traded this offseason.

by MarioD on Aug 26, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was true for one game.

The 5-1 loss to Calgary in March, right after they traded Upshall.

I think the disruptions in their chemistry contributed to their faltering down the stretch, which is ultimately WHY they lost in the first round, but they didn’t lose in the first round because of Upshall.

Random thought and likely completely off base, but I can’t help but wonder if one of the reasons they went out and got Ray Emery was due to his record against the Penguins. Ottawa did sweep them in the first round in 2007 with Emery in the net.

Obviously the Flyers got Emery because he’s talented, fiery, and has something to prove – all at a price they could afford. But I think his shutting down of the Pens in 2007 definitely factored into Homer’s decision.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 26, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't think so.

The Penguins are a much different team than they were in ‘06-07. And Emery didn’t really steal any games against the Pens if I remember that series well; he was solid throughout the five games. I would hope that wasn’t a factor in Homer’s decision. That’s sort of like saying the Marlins continuing to have players who are swing-happy contributed to the Phillies trading for Moyer, who eats those guys up.

I do think Niitty’s record against the Thrashers played a factor with the Lightning, but that’s weird stuff to base personnel decisions on.

by Ben Feldman on Aug 26, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that’s true, Richards needs to be traded. And it’s not true, you actually have it backwards.

I was at that game. Jokinen came out all fired up because he’d been released from hockey hell and reunited with his boy Mike Keenan. He scored two goals in the first period.

by MarioD on Aug 27, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

So was I.

Certainly Iginla, Jokinen, and Cammalleri were happy to be playing together. However, the Flyers looked flat from the get-go in that game. They played with no spark until the 3rd period. The only time I can recall them playing worse was the 3-2 loss to Toronto in early April, after which Homer called everyone out.

As for your comments about team chemistry, I don’t understand. Mike Richards did not make Homer put two popular locker-room guys (Ossi and Metro) on the waiver wire. Mike Richards did not trade another well-liked player, Scottie Upshall. Additionally, Mike Richards went through an awful lot in his first year as team captain, including playing with injured shoulders down the stretch.

Leadership comes more naturally to some people than to others, but even the best leaders need to experience failure in order to become better.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 27, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Richards is the captain. If there’s a player in the locker room pouting because they traded a mediocre third line player, it’s Richards’ job to slap that guy across the face and remind him he gets paid millions of dollars to play hockey and to stop acting like a child.

If Richards’ can’t accomplish that, he’s not a captain. And if Richards was pouting this franchise is in a lot of trouble.

Pronger will NOT let anyone get away with having a bad game because their friend got traded and they feel sad?

by MarioD on Aug 27, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understood.

I’m sure Richie has his own way of accomplishing that, however. He does not seem to be an in-your-face kind of guy, but he must have some effective methods since he has been a leader at every level.

I wasn’t trying to justify Upshall’s loss as a reason for the Flyers to tank it or anything remotely like that. I think that there were a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle issues which plagued the team over the course of the season (again, Richie’s first as captain).

However, just when it looked like they FINALLY had their entire team in place at the beginning of March, away goes Upshall. Call him mediocre if you like, but he was a popular guy in the locker room. And since neither you nor I are professional hockey players, I don’t really think it’s fair for us to say how chemistry affects – or SHOULD affect – a team’s performance. All I know is that it does – seemingly more in hockey than in other sports – and the Flyers had theirs disrupted several times over the course of the year. I don’t care if Mark Messier or Bob Clarke or any great leader is the captain; if you don’t have the right chemistry, you’re not going to have a well-oiled machine.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 27, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

You never hear players talk about chemistry. It’s a bullshit idea manufactured by journalists looking for an easy way to write a column.

In hockey, players can have chemistry when playing together, don’t get me wrong. But the idea that an entire team does or does not have chemistry is purely a lazy way of avoiding researching the true underlying issues.

Take the microcosm of that Calgary game. They had no chemistry. They had added Leopold and Jokinen and removed three players. Jokinen and Leopold met the team in Philadelphia and I’m not sure if they made a morning skate that day. If chemistry were the issue, the Flames would’ve been in the tank that night.

by MarioD on Aug 27, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should have been clearer. By “chemistry” I was really getting at how well a team gets along personally. Look at the Phillies. They all seem to get along really well. No doubt that teams who get along well do better overall.

By contrast, I can think back to the disappointing 1997-98 Flyers. It was well-known that the team were divided into cliques who didn’t really associate with one another too much. Perhaps not surprisingly, they were inconsistent all year and lost in the first round.

I’m not suggesting that the team didn’t get along anymore after Metro, Ossi, and Upshall left, but a disruption to THAT aspect of team chemistry probably didn’t help things – even if it wasn’t the cause of their early exit.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 27, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

And...

Your example is certainly valid, but more for Jokinen than Leopold. Leopold started his career in Calgary and had been there for a little while before going elsewhere. A few hockey writers thought he had been Robyn Regehr’s best-ever defense partner, and that their reuniting would be a boon to the team. So some members of the team had played with him before; Jokinen, not so much. Bertuzzi did I guess.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just curious, do you work in an office with 30 or more people? (akin to the locker room)

In my experience in a setting like that, it would be outrageous and unacceptable to have a dropoff in performance because someone else got fired, resigned, was transferred, whatever.

If you want to look at the Phillies, look at 1993. It’s well known that a number of players on that team hated one another, and they were incredibly cliquey. Yet very successful.

“Team chemistry” is just lazy bullshit because its not a consistent indicator of performance. Throw out NFL and NBA, because the large/small nature of those two sports render it incomparable to NHL/MLB.

There are just as many stories of teams that don’t get along at all being successful as there are of teams that like to go drinking together being succesful.

by MarioD on Aug 27, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

As long as they are playing to the top of their capabilities

It shouldn’t matter how much they like each other. Even the quick data I looked at found no relationship between Flyers w/ or w/o Upshall unexplainable by talent differences or slumps.

by Alon on Aug 27, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if you don’t feel like writing a column, it’s super easy just to write about how trading upshall destroyed their chemistry.

by MarioD on Aug 27, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 1993 Phillies did not win the World Series. And that team was pretty much a one-shot deal. The core of that group finished .500 in 1991, worse in 1992, as NL champs in 1993, lousy in 1994, etc. This would be a more valid argument if that core had a string of successful seasons instead of just one.

Compare that to our current core of Phillies, who got better throughout the early 2000s until their division championship in 2007, their World Series championship in 2008, and their movement towards a third straight postseason appearance in 2009.

As for the Flyers, the Cup teams were like family, as were the mid-80s teams (who could have won at least one Cup if not for the Oilers being so damn good).

My point here is not to say that chemistry between team personnel is the ONLY thing needed to win a championship other than talent. I’m just trying to say how it can have a positive effect on a team’s performance.

I agree with you that the loss of a popular player does not justify a team’s not living up to expectations. But the constant shuffling of personnel last year – especially later in the season when the team needed to become more cohesive – did not help matters any.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 29, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for proving my point. Talentless and bad chemistry, and performed over their heads.

Let’s just make this as clear as possible:

TEAM CHEMISTRY IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO ON ICE SUCCESS.

by MarioD on Aug 29, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fail.

Poll Fail.

Yes. Richards did win the poll yesterday, but removing him from this poll reeks of insecurity. I don’t think he’s the MVP. I think he’s a number 2. But apparantley, the several hundred people who voted for someone other then richards in the previous poll; their opinions don’t matter.

by BroadStreetBully on Aug 26, 2009 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Insecurity?

Because BSH is worried that there might be differing opinions? If that was the case, why even open a poll at all? Why would someone voted upon by a majority of members remain in a poll, for the minority to rank second? If you are complaining about unfairness after someone wins a majority of the vote, you might as well not even look at results for #10. If everyone voted the way you did, how would that effect the accuracy of the 8th place vote when somebody wins 8th after already winning #7?

Broad Street Hockey -
Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 26, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the point of the series of polls is to create a list of the roster ordered in terms of their value based on the majority opinion.

The goal was to create this master list of sorts, not see what percentage of fans think so and so player is is the 3rd-4th or whatever most valuable.

by FredEx on Aug 26, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's silly

It’s the same way elections work. You may not agree, but part of the democratic process (i.e. voting) is that the majority wins. So, according to our poll, Mike Richards is the most valuable Flyer. Doesn’t matter what you think, it matters what the community thinks (insofar as we each get a single vote).

Do I think Timmonen is more valuable to us than Pronger? F no. I think it’s almost idiotic to think so — Pronger is factually better at hockey in nearly every single aspect of the game (besides, perhaps, straight line speed) than Timmonen. But then, I also think it’s silly that Chaka Fattah is still in Congress given all his corruption/lack of improvement under his watch. But, I only have one vote, so the majority wins out and Congressman Fattah continues his political career as my representative even though I would prefer different representation. Similarly, Timmonen will win #2 most valuable Flyer even though I would prefer different representation.

by Alon on Aug 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Randy Jones huh??

obviously a smart ass to vote for jones. Carter should be. Second(tied) on the team in shortys. and 1st in GW by a long shot. Tops in pts, +/- if he duplicates last season or even adds a little we should be in good shape come May and June, yes i said June. With that being said, for as much as we gave up to get Pronger, he better deliver and give Carter a run for 2nd mvp.

by Crosby sucks on Aug 26, 2009 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

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