Ranking the Flyers: Number 3
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 28, 2009 3:20 PM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Features
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Welcome back to the continuing series ranking the Flyers. After some heated discussion in the comments, Kimmo Timonen edged out Jeff Carter as the #2 most valuable Flyer with 34% of the vote.
Will Carter's breakout year land him at #3? Or will Simon Gagne stage another comeback performance and beat out both Carter and new big-man Chris Pronger? Let's get the voting started.
In case you need a recap, here's where we are so far:
- Mike RIchards
- Kimmo Timonen
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hmmm..
i’ve voted for the right person each time til now it seems….I love Carter but I think Gagne has more impact with his presence on the ice . Carter had a good season last year, but Gagne has been solid for numerous seasons now….age does seem to be getting to him tho with the rash of recent injuries but I still got to stand with my decision to make Simon Gagne my number 3. Sorry Jeff…..
Nash for 8 More, Baby!
Explaining Ray Emery pick
I ranked players based on two criteria:
(1) Have to be key part of winning the cap
(2) Hard to replace
After captain and best D-man, the starting goalie is next in line…
I think you and I should start our own site for people who actually understand how hockey is played.
Pronger hasn't done anything for us yet.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure he’s still got plenty left in the tank. But until he proves that to us, Kimmo will still be our best all-around defenseman.
In other news, Broad Street Hockey exists to serve as a forum for discussion. Many opinions are generated during discussions. Not many are limited solely to expert analysis, nor should they be.
Not for anything, but I think most posters here “actually understand how hockey is played.” The main differences are in opinion; i.e., who plays better than whom. You could have a whole website for hockey experts only and people would still differ in their opinions.
Anyone who read Hockey Digest back in the day will hear me loud and clear. “Who’s Better?”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
No one who understands hockey will ever argue that Kimmo Timmonen is a better player than Chris Pronger.
And if you can’t vote for Pronger because he “hasn’t played for the Flyers” (eye roll) then JVR, Emery, Laperriere, and Tollefson shouldn’t be up there either.
You might not be able to argue that Timmonen is better then Pronger, but you can look at what Kimmo has done here in Philly. He’s been our number 1 shut down guy. Has played great against other teams top lines and is one of the more underappreciated guys in the league. What you can also argue is that Timmonen plays a more subtle style of defense then Pronger. He won’t make a guy a grease spot on the boards and doesn’t have a mean slapshot, but he’s smart and has great positioning.
And hey, I know we all don’t have the extensive hockey knowledge like you apparently do, but how about you just get your point across without slighting other posters.
by Pondhockey on Aug 29, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“And hey, I know we all don’t have the extensive hockey knowledge like you apparently do, but how about you just get your point across without slighting other posters.”
Irony, thy name is Pondhockey.
Didn’t use irony in any way, hypocrisy maybe, but not really seeing as you do seem to label yourself as some who understands hockey. But anyway, not that big of deal and sorry if you feel slighted.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the… expected result
I did vote for Pronger here.
And I was not trying to say that one player is better than the other. I’m just trying to explain other peoples’ rationales.
When you get down to it, Pronger is better than Timonen, no doubt. But in the other polls I voted – as I’m sure others did – on what I have seen firsthand. Before Pronger’s arrival, TImonen was our best defenseman. When TImonen was out of the llineup, you noticed. This will no longer be the case, assuming Pronger stays healthy and does what he was brought here to do.
My point is that this has not happened yet. I’m sure it WILL happen, and I hope it DOES happen. But I will reserve my final judgment until I see whether or not it happens.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I did not say I voted for Timonen now did I ?
But the majority did pick him, and I think goalie is next
Ignoring the ridiculousness of the argument itself, the only logical conclusion from your post is that you imply that Kimmo is the best d-man.
-You’re saying this is the order of importance:
1) Captain
2) Best D-man
3) Goaltender
- Objectively, richards is the captain, so check that one of the list.
- Next you vote for the best d-man. You wouldn’t move on to voting for Emery unless you checked off item number two on the agenda.
- Kimmo is the only other player selected….
Therefore, you have to believe Kimmo is the Flyers’ best defenseman, or else you fail at simple logic.
This is voting for position #3 and I think for position #3 it is Goalie
Who is better D-Man was argued in the thread for position #2 and I voted for Pronger there
And please stop with personal insults, it is uncalled for.
Agreed...
… insofar as this:
And please stop with personal insults, it is uncalled for.
I wrote this post for a reason.
You’re right though, if we don’t have solid net-minding we’re in real trouble.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Was with the crowd on the first two
But I’m going with Pronger here. I think Richards and Timonen are more valuable, but Pronger helps change the complexion of the team and gives it the presence they lacked last year. Carter is certainly 4 though
"It was almost like if Harry didn't call it, it wasn't real." - Jayson Stark
voted for richards and kimmo the first 2 rounds..
but i gotta go with giroux this round. carter and gagne close behind him though. carter had a lucky season i think but hopefully he can do it again. and giroux is their youngest talent whos gonna shine and hopefully force others to as well. everyone has a good arguement tho.
Someone tell me how Carter is more valuable than Pronger. From what we’ve seen, Carter’s a floater in the playoffs. Pronger is the COMPLETE opposite of that. He’s what we need. I’m tired of the regular season achievers that disappear when it matters. That’s not value.
Wasn’t Carter seriously injured during the first or second game of the series against Pittsburgh? I remember reading this, but I don’t remember the details…I do remember thinking – “dang, he played through that…explains a lot” So I’m not sure we can say he’s a guy that disappears in the postseason just yet….I do agree that Pronger might have more value to this team overall because the Flyers have generally relied on offensive depth and scoring from a lot of different players and were in need of a stud defensemen. But I can certainly understand people saying that the best sniper on the team is the third most valuable…
World Ph*cking Champs! That was fun - let's do it again...
by Jordan Ellel on Aug 28, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
that arguably one of the 5 best players in the NHL is barely one of the 5 best on the Flyers
Yeah, if Pronger loses this one I’m done reading these. There are better uses of time than explaining to idiots why one of the league’s best players is more important than a center on a team with 4 first line centers.
I at least feel better that they argue players of different positions to be more important.
If you value well rounded play (Richards), scoring (Carter), goaltending (Emery), high upside youth (Giroux) then ok, I’m fine with that, even if I disagree.
But I felt Pronger has to be the top choice at defenseman.
Eh. I may disagree with the specifics of what you threw out there, but I will agree that I wouldn’t mind so much if there was a legitimate basis for the votes.
There’s certainly nothing defensible about thinking Kimmo is more valuable than Pronger. And I never saw a legitimate argument made for Richards over Pronger, either.
As to why I disagree with the specifics: calling richards “well rounded” ignores his huge deficiency at one of the major duties of his positiong (faceoffs). Meanwhile Pronger is an elite shooter, passer, and defender in even strength and all special team situations. He’s actually a more well-rounded player than Richards is. Emery may be “most important” but I think that’s different than “valuable”.
Carter, while ridiculous, is probably the most defensible pick ahead of Pronger because at least there isn’t anyone else on the team who can score 40 goals with his own shot. (Hartnell could get 40 with about 30 of them cleaning up the garbage.) As I said before, Richards could be lost
and Pronger takes the C, Briere moves to center to lose 51% of the faceoffs and probably create more scoring, and Carter jumps on the PK.
Love the Larry-King understatedness of this line: “But I felt Pronger has to be the top choice at defenseman.” “Maybe it’s just me, but Michael Jordan was a damn fine basketball player.”
I did mean to say well rounded forward (although face offs are certainly missing from the equation). Messed that one up. Richards has youth on as side as well. You get more years out of Richards then Pronger.
I agree Emery is more far more important than he is valuable , but if you interpret this unspecified ‘value’ differently, that vote is ok with me.
MJ? He was pretty decent.
Shoulders
Maybe if Richie’s shoulders have healed properly he’ll be better at faceoffs. I could be wrong. But hopefully he worked on them this summer.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Did he numbers decline as the season progressed? I’m not sure when he got hurt but I assume (maybe wrongly) he was healthy to start the season.
Read the post I put up: http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2009/8/10/983691/why-the-flyers-need-a-face-off
Richards’ Career Face-Off
2008-09: 49%
2007-08: 50.5%
2006-07: 47.8%
2005-06: 45.7%
He got better until last year...
… which is why I think his shoulders had something to do with his problem.
As for FredEx’s question, I don’t know. I’m pretty sure he did start the season healthy.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
wow screwed that up
Sorry people, still too early, need more coffee. I voted Richards, Pronger, Carter. It could have gone different ways though.Does scoring rank higher in “value” than defense or is it the other way around. Just depends on your outllook of the game. My next choice would be Timmo then Giroux ( or Gags) Emery is an Unknown quantity. The “position” certainly ranks high but, The player has not proven anything yet.
Why Carter?
Because we’re unsure of our secondary scoring this year. You could easily vote on Pronger or Emery with this pick. But with the loses of Lupul and Knuble, I think Carter having another great year is key to this season. If he comes up short, we’ll end up being heavily reliant on the top line and hope and pray that are third line comes up big as well.
3rd line scoring?
If we are going to count on 3rd line scoring, I think we will have a problem. Taking nothing away from Giroux ( who I think is going to be / is a top 6 player ) He needs someone on his line that can see the ice . I dont see anyone on the roster that will help him. He played very well with Briere because they have the same style. With Briere moving up this year, who is going to be Girouxs’ wingers? Unless one of the rookies can step up this year and make an impact, I dont see a lot of scoring from the 3rd line.
gagne
Because we need him to be the player he as been the last few years. He looked good though his numbers were not amazing they above solid, and watching him play he was very solid in all three zones. But we do need pronger to play like he has the last 15 seasons. Ive watched him the last two season with the Ducks, and he will add a lot to this team maybe more than kimo but in hockey or any sport you just dont know how a player will do coming onto a new team.
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