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Simon Gagne's Groin Injury: Reason to Worry?

Throughout the month of August, there has been very little news regarding the Flyers.  Other than re-signing four of their own prospects, the roster has not changed since the signing of Ole-Kristian Tollefsen July 30th. 

Needless to say, it has been a slow month.  Unfortunately, the first news to come from the team was that Simon Gagne left Team Canada's Orientation Camp with a right groin and right hip injury.

After having surgery on the hip this summer, Gagne was quick to get off the ice and head home.  Initially, it was ruled a minor injury that was nothing to worry about.  That no longer seems entirely accurate. 

Tim Panaccio revealed today that Gagne has received an injection of Platelet Rich Plasma - PRP.  This is a relatively new treatment in sports medicine that has had some encouraging results in other sports, including Hines Ward, Troy Polamalu, and Takashi Saito.

Star-divide

The New York Times had an article on the procedure at the beginning of the year which explained PRP:

The method, which is strikingly straightforward and easy to perform, centers on injecting portions of a patient’s blood directly into the injured area, which catalyzes the body’s instincts to repair muscle, bone and other tissue. Most enticing, many doctors said, is that the technique appears to help regenerate ligament and tendon fibers, which could shorten rehabilitation time and possibly obviate surgery.

In explaining what the surgery does, the article quoted Dr. Allan Mishra:

"It’s a better option for problems that don’t have a great solution — it’s nonsurgical and uses the body’s own cells to help it heal," said Dr. Allan Mishra, an assistant professor of orthopedics at Stanford University Medical Center.

Now, what this means for Simon Gagne isn't yet known.  Either Gagne's injury is pretty serious and that's why he elected to use this option, or since he aggravated the region so soon after having surgery on his hip, the team wanted to try this as a precautionary measure.  The bottom line though, is that this is something that needs to be closely monitored.  Simon's quotes on the matter don't exactly ease any concerns either.

Immediately after the injury:  "They don’t think I really hurt myself," Gagne said. "I think it is just tightness that was there a little bit this summer when I started skating. I went to Philly to get it checked again but they said it was normal."

Later in the week:  "Sure I have had some problems in the past year with the hip and the groin. But still I am able to play with that kind of pain. Like I said, I am used to it. These types of injuries are not fun to have. Usually I find a way to get through it."

So did Simon really hurt himself, or is it just tightness?  The latest quote seems to suggest that he is resigned to having this be a nagging injury throughout the season, but team officials are still telling us not to worry.  Are you worried?

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Simon has, more or less, been damaged goods for years now — well before the concussion in ‘07-08. For being a team built around the idea of toughness, a lot of our major players tend to become damaged goods at one point or another. Doesn’t Keith Primeau call the concussion he suffered in the ’99-00 series against Pittsburgh the beginning of the end of his career? That Simon has been able to have the production he has had throughout his career even with these nagging health problems is a testament to the incredible talent he has.

by Ben Feldman on Aug 30, 2009 12:46 AM EDT reply actions  

eh

it’s hockey, every player in the NHL is damaged goods at some level.

by Alon on Aug 30, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have been a huge Gags fan since he came on board. I would hate to see him go. BUT, if the Flyers are able to get some worthwhile talent for him……….

by craiger6 on Aug 30, 2009 6:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Gagne is on the cuttting edge of treatment!

Pun partially intended.

Remember Gags went through unconventional treatment for his recurring concussion in 2007-08 and he obviously responded well to it.

Having experienced that, I’m sure he went through this for the same reason – to nip this problem in the bud.

Does this make Gagne’s injury any more or less serious than reported? No one knows for sure. However, it seems like he’s doing the right thing. So no matter how serious the injury is, I’m sure he’ll come out of it sooner than expected.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 30, 2009 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Does Gagne and a 2nd round pick for Milan Michalek just make too much sense to pull the trigger on?

Michalek has a cap hit of $4.3m through 2013/14.
Gagne has a hit of $5.25 through 2010/11.

The sharks have $5mil in cap space. The Flyers can’t keep both Gagne and Carter after next season. The Sharks want to shake up their roster a bit.

by MarioD on Aug 30, 2009 4:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Where do the Sharks have this $5m of cap space? I’m seeing that as of right now they have $599,166 left, and that’s with only 9 forwards and no backup for Nabakov.

by Ben Feldman on Aug 30, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gagne and 2nd for Milan Michalek is a bad deal for the Flyers. First of all they have trade a considerable amount of high draft picks recently so relinquishing another would just compound that problem. Secondly Gagne is a better player than Michalek to begin with so the Flyers shouldnt be the ones adding a pick.. Thirdly, Simon Gagne has only 2 years left on his deal at 5.25 mil which doesnt restrict the FLyers, Michalek, however, is locked in until 2013/14. To me trading Gagne and a second for Michalek would be akin to trading Gagne and a secon for Joffery Lupul because both Lupul and Michalek put up simalar numbers with similar contracts. The last thing the Flyers need are more long term commitments especially because the team is built to win now.

by tmurder on Aug 31, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gagne and a second for Michalek frees up $2mil. Which means they can go sign manny malhotra. Second round picks are worthless.

This team is a better team if you swap Gagne for Malhotra and Michalek.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh really?

Second round picks are worthless.

To be fair, a good deal of second-round picks do not make the NHL. However, there are more exceptions than you’d think. Here are some notable “worthless” players:

Patrick Elias, Milan Lucic, Paul Stastny, Brandon Dubinsky, David Backes, Duncan Keith, Mike Cammalleri, Jason Pominville, David Krejci, Jiri Hudler, Tomas Fleischmann, Guillaume Latendresse.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 31, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s just pretend all of those players were in the same draft class. That’s still only 12 players out of the 30 second round picks that season. And the Flyers 2nd round pick for the foreseeable future can be expected to be somewhere between 45th-60th overall.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand that. Most second-round picks do not become NHL mainstays. However, the second round pick you trade today might just become a Patrick Elias tomorrow. In my mind, no draft pick is worthless until he proves himself to be.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 31, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

ridiculous!!!

michalek is a bum… and cant back-check

what is with the malhotra fantasy? its getting old, i would rather have ross on the team

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of us are fans of actually winning a faceoff now and then.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

again with the over-emphasized point about richys and carter FO percentage… given the amount of FOs these guys had to take (around 3400 last year), it was no wonder their percentage was in the middle. but they still were top 7 in FO wins… i definitely agree we need a third guy that will win some, lappy and giroux might be those guys

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

True.

The guys we have might have been working hard on their face-off skills all summer. If Richards’ shoulders are in good shape I think he’ll be fine. He got better at winning draws every year until this past season, when we found out he was playing hurt.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Aug 31, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

NO! Increased faceoffs do NOT decrease your percentage. Enough of this ridiculous concept. Looking at total faceoff wins is outright assinine.

Not to mention, there isn’t even out-of-context support for this idea.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20092ALLSASAll&sort=totalFaceOffs&viewName=faceOffPercentage

Of the top 26 in the league last year in faceoffs taken, Richards and Carter ranked 24th and 25th in win percentage.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes but they were top 4 and 6 in actual wins… which is impressive since they were both in the top 3 in FOs taken. yes – the more you take the lower the percentage- works in baseball and football.

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it is not impressive. Their faceoff performance is fucking embarassing.

This is a list of everyone post-lockout who took more faceoffs than Carter (1725-48.3%) and Richards (1660-49%) last season.

2008-09
Shawn Horcoff 1756-53.9%

2007-08
Sundin 1713-55.2%
Eric Staal 1708-44.9%

2006-07
Brind’Amour 2047-59.2%
Sundin 1790-55.2
Sillinger 1708-58.8
Crosby 1686-49.8

2005-06
Brind’Amour 2145-59.1%
Joe Thornton 1798-51.3%
Sakic 1669-52.5%
Drury 1641-55.5%

In four seasons, 13 players have taken as many faceoffs as Richards and Carter last season. And of the 13, they rank 11th and 12th in win percentage.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

im sticking with this year in the discussion…

it’s an anomaly, come on… shawn horcoff?!?! 53 points, ZERO short handed goals… 5% better in faceoffs on a crappy oilers team… i’ll take the 46 goals carts had over a better FO percentage…

richy and carts did it all last year (PP, SH) and the FO % suffered from it… so someone has to step it up and take a good 1000 FOs this year. i was thinking giroux could pick up the slack there…

Sid was by far the most complete player in that respect, having the numbers and 51% in FO… he was also number one in the playoffs… tough to do…

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

And it doesn’t work that way in baseball, either.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp

Batting average, listed in order of most ABs in all of baseball

1) .285
2) .244 (Jimmy Rollins, statistical aberation because no one else would continue batting leadoff after his April)
3) .305
4) .315
5) .335
6) .276
7) .287
8) .303
9) .359
10) .326
11) .301
12) .310
13) .300
14) .312
15) .305

Of the top 15 AB leaders in MLB, 11 of them are hitting over 300. And only Rollins is hitting belong the league average.

I have no concept of what statistic in football you are trying to compare to, so I can’t prove that wrong right now.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was thinking pass attempts

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_ATTEMPTS&d-447263-n=1

And wrong again. 20 qbs had over 60% passing. Pass completion % listed in descending order of PA:

1 – 65%
2 – 62.3%
3 – 67.1%
4 – 60.4% (Anomaly because this is McNabb and Reid is a play-calling moron)
5 – 66.8%
6 – 63.6%
7 – 62.6%
8 – 65.7%
9 – 63.4%
10 – 62.3%

With the exception of McNabb, the top 10 in pass attempts were all in the top 14 of completion percentage.

Now stop posting your statistically incorrect gibberish.

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

like all statistics, it can go either way… back to hockey, youre berating players that were about 5% worse then the top guy. big deal, maybe they will get better with a third player in the mix… remember richy and carts arre still young… Rod was at the twilight of his career when he was the top FO guy in 06-07, maybe it’s an experience thing. give these guys time to grow into their huge responsibilities and give them some support on the ice

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

1) Stop moronically making things up. Brindamour won 56% in 1998, 57% in 1999, etc. etc.

2) Read this and try to learn why faceoffs are important: http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=239

by MarioD on Aug 31, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

so why isnt anyone hitting .300 with the most ABs

by fitzy first on Aug 31, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stat 101

It’s not a big deal to confuse things the way you are confusing them, so lemme explain it as simply as i can:

there’s a concept called reversion to the mean. What that means is, given enough iterations (i.e., pass attempts, faceoffs, shots, plate appearances, games, etc), players / teams will revert to their own individual mean — i.e., their stats will reflect their true capabilities. It is not true that the more PAs you have, the lower your BA — witness Ted Williams. He had plenty of PAs, and his BA was indeed reverting to his mean — ~.400. In hockey, the more FO attempts you have, the more likely you are to win the percentage of FOs that best reflects your true abilities. All Carter/Richards’ #s say is that their true ability to win a faceoff lies at winning a little less than 1 out of every 2 faceoffs. Other players are better (this is statistically proven) at faceoffs, and can win well over 1 out of every 2 faceoffs, regardless of the number of faceoffs they have.

Oftentimes, reversion to the mean is seen in sports lingo as “hot streaks” and “cold streaks,” which don’t mean anything other than a player is having a run of luck that allows him to perform at the highest he’s capable of within a probabilistic range over a certain number of iterations. For example, Albert Pujols, if he performs at the highest 10% of his probabilistic range, could hit .400 for the year. Shorter-span, over 10 at bats, the highest 10% of his probabilistic range might be hitting the ball 9 out of 10 times or 10 out of 10 times. This is statistically guaranteed to happen at some point — not necessarily to Pujols, but to someone (hitting streaks etc, or in hockey, goal scoring streaks). The players are referred to as “seeing the ball well” or “getting lucky puck bounces” etc., which might or might not be true — it doesn’t matter. Their performance is statistically predicted to have to happen. It balances out, because at some point they have a string of bad luck (etc)., or are playing players in their own good luck streak — “cold streaks” are also statistically guaranteed to happen. The net effect is the player’s normal performance, and if given enough FOs or shots or at-bats etc, the player’s stats will consistently reflect his truest abilities.

The sum of the story is that Carter & Richards are basically very poor at FOs, especially for guys who have so many. Given that many FOs, they should be able to improve and win against the less experienced guys they are going up against. There is no real reason for them to suck at FOs, and the fact that they do statistically and definitively hurts our team in the form of us having fewer goals scored and our opponents having more goals scored.

Hope this helps clear some confusion.

by Alon on Sep 1, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

there is no confusion… its not all about stats and percentages though. carts and rich will get better at FOs… that’s all i care about…

by fitzy first on Sep 1, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Joe Morgan, is that you?

by MarioD on Sep 1, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hold on- i have some important things i need to express to people with degrading accusatory tones by way of pathetic attempts to self-satisfy my own blogtrash agenda…

OH WAIT- THAT’S YOU I’M TALKING ABOUT :)-

by fitzy first on Sep 3, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re looking at NHLSCap aren’t you? It’s not up to date. They traded Eirhoff and Lukowich this week.

by MarioD on Aug 30, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, my bad. Didn’t notice they were still there.

by Ben Feldman on Aug 30, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regardless of how serious the injury is, it is not even September 1st yet. There are roughly 5 weeks until the season starts, I’m not overly concerned. Gagne should sit and take all the time he needs to get healthy. It’s an 82 game season and we need him healthy in March/April/May/June. I’m not overly concerned if he isn’t 100% in October. Hitting the panic button and trading one of our most talented/experienced players because he’s not healthy in October would be idiotic.

by njh3293 on Aug 31, 2009 8:36 AM EDT reply actions  

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