Does JVR need the AHL?
by NickC3 on Sep 28, 2009 2:36 AM EDT
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As the season approaches and it looks more and more like James Van Riemsdyk is going to make the big club, the debate whether he is actually NHL ready has arisen. On one hand, he has yet to go through the gauntlet and make it through the AHL before working his way up to the NHL. However, he has flashed a great deal of potential through both training camp and the preseason and appears to be one of the team's top twelve forwards. With that being the case, I feel that JVR deserves a chance to start the season with the Flyers.
This season is all about one thing-winning the cup. If this is the case, the future is now, and suiting up the best possible lineup is a necessity. Keeping JVR helps in a variety of ways. First and foremost, he helps replace some of the scoring lost from Mike Knuble and Joffrey Lupul. Some may say that a healthy Danny Briere and a full-season of Claude Giroux will be enough; however, the health of Briere is still a question and Giroux is still unproven. He cannot be counted on to pick up the slack on his own, and JVR will help take off some of the burden.
In addition, JVR also helps the depth of the team. Depending on how the lines are drawn, keeping JVR could potentially allow the Flyers to continue rolling three legitimate scoring lines. In the salary cap era, few teams are able to do this, but with JVR and Giroux’s entry level contracts, the Flyers would be able to continue doing this. With the upgrades made on defense in the off-season, maintaining the same explosiveness amongst the forwards would be quite an achievement.
Also, this would lead to a very gritty and competent fourth line, consisting of a mix of Blair Betts, Ian Laperriere, Aaron Asham, Darroll Powe, and Daniel Carcillo. They would not be counted on to score goals; however, they would contribute solid minutes as a checking line. Without JVR, this group would make up most of both the third and fourth lines, perhaps giving the Flyers an excess of these types of players. The extra scoring most likely would be of more use than two checking lines.
In the end, JVR’s impact on the Flyers could potentially be drastic if he can live up to the hype of a number two overall pick. If he is unable to hold his own at the NHL level, he can easily be sent down for more seasoning, similar to what the Flyers did with Giroux last season. That said, I do not think this is the same case as Giroux. Giroux was not ready to make the big club, and it showed in his play. So far, JVR has done nothing but impress. He may not need to make the stop in the AHL. Simon Gagne never took that step and neither Jeff Carter nor Mike Richards played significant time with the Phantoms (although they had an impressive playoff run in 2005). Having JVR play twenty games against inferior competition just to put up numbers is trivial. If he is ready now then bring him up. And for those who point to the overall improvement in Giroux’s game after a season on the farm, it should be noted that he has been called out for poor defensive play so far in camp. So perhaps the minor leagues are not the ultimate fixer. He may have had time to learn how to kill penalties, but with the acquisition of Betts and Laperriere, it appears that the Flyers are trying to stray from playing their top scorers on the PK to reduce minutes and strain.
So the time is now. If JVR appears to be ready to contribute, then he belongs with the big club. If it helps the Flyers get closer to hoisting the Cup, then it must be done.
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Not to mention,
. . . what keeping JvR does for the Flyers Cap space. I do not know where I read it but someone was saying that it would be smart for the Flyers to start JvR with the Flyers so that his cap hit is already worked into their books. That way, if he does impress and shows that he is a legitimate top 12 forward, Homer does not have to wheel and deal and waive players just to get JvR into the lineup when they need him. And on the other side; if JvR shows that he is not ready to be a Flyer and needs to be dropped back down for some seasoning with the Phantoms, it will be easier to bring someone else up who is cheaper to replace him.
With that said, I am still not sold on JvR. I am still a little worried that he has smoke-screened us, to an extent, with his solid play throughout the preseason. We may yet find that he is still just not ready to compete day-in and day-out in the NHL. As MarioDi or MarioD has pointed out, his defense might need some work. I would not be upset if they gave him some more time in Glen Falls and maybe pulled him up later.
While I may not agree with Mario’s continued harping on that one aspect of his game, it is a legitimate concern. Normally, it’d be capable of brushing under the rug – how many defensive liabilities do we have on the team? – but there’s no reason to forgive a rookie from that, when he can just go get better. Rather have him work on defense when he’s still young, than tell the kid his defense needs work, but he’s an NHL player anyway. How many Briere/Lupul’s does this team need? Not saying JVR is that, but he needs to know it’s not acceptable to become that.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 28, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. He has some awesome offensive talent which is the focal point of his game. That is great. But all the Flyers ask is that he is responsible in his own end. He doesn’t need to be winning the Selke, just playing solid defense and helping out his teammates. He is not going to get by on just offense forever.
He is young and eager to play. I think we are gonna see some good things out of him.
But it’s not a talent issue. It’s an issue because he’s never played at the professional level.
The really scary part is that more symptoms of that problem are going to manifest in the regular season. His inexperience will lead to even more slow/poor decisions resulting in losing his man and turning the puck over.
I will be shocked if he doesn’t spend time in the AHL this season.
Keep him up with the big boys. The Flyers have some pretty darn good offensive forwards that JvR can learn to play good defense from (ie: Richards, Carter, Gagne and Hartnell will all serve as excellent examples of how to be a solid 2-way player in the “new” NHL) .
Lineup on Oct.2nd:
Gagne – Richards – Pyorala
Hartnell – Carter – JvR
Powe/Carcillo – Giroux – Briere
Carcillo/Powe – Betts – Lappy
Kimmo – Coburn
Pronger – Carle
Parent – OKT
Cote, Asham and Syvret in the PressBox
Purposeful split of Briere and JvR? If that’s the case, I’d rather flip Pyorala and him.
If Asham is in the box, Ben will be mad.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 28, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with the split, because I don’t think JvR is going to learn a lot about defense playing with Briere. I’m not sold that Carter is the answer to that, either, but I’d rather not start out with JvR trying to learn defense by feeling pressured to pick up the slack… it may be motivation for him, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it will be effective. Besides, I also think we need them both on the right side, we have so many guys who are traditionally left wingers over their history. JvR is one of those, but I’d rather see him adjust to the NHL on the right rather than push over someone who is doing well on the left.
by DragonGirl0583 on Sep 28, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you, but would then question where JvR is better fit so he doesn’t “try to learn defense by feeling pressured to pick up the slack”: with Carter/Hartnell, or Richards/Gagne? Which is why, if that were Stevens’ lineup, I’d want him to swap Pyorala and JvR.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 28, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
All indications are that Svyret has passed OKT on the depth chart in camp. Whether that’ll be true come Friday is up in the air, of course.
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by Travis Hughes on Sep 28, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if Syvret hasn’t passed him (which I think you’re right saying he has), how long till OKT gets hurt, and Syvret passes him anyway? I’m saying within 15 games. haha
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 28, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
haha
come on man .. ive been saying svyret for weeks .. hes better than jones already
by jack is better than asante on Sep 28, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
JVR's D
The way I see it when he first comes into the league you have him do what he does best, score. When he becomes a consistent scorer then you ask him to take on new responsibilities, such as improving his D.
I don’t think the two have to be mutually exclusive
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 28, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
good defense leads to good scoring opportunities
by worldphuckinchamps on Oct 5, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when the last time a player on the flyers won rookie of the year or whatever that trophy is called? has there every been one?
The Calder Trophy — it’s never happened.
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by Travis Hughes on Sep 28, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
JVR
my boys gonna win the calder ..i been talkin about him for 2 years .. he has the size .. rick nash
by jack is better than asante on Sep 29, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
D-Fence
I don’t understand why he couldn’t learn defense at the NHL level he certainly will be playing more defense in the NHL instead of potentially dominating the AHL and learning bad habits like getting to fancy and puck hogging like he would do in the NCAA. He has the speed and size to play solid defense just needs more experience. He is not going to be playing with Carter and Hartnell over Briere who is the only Flyer to have a better camp than JVR. The Carter line will be getting too many minutes for JVR, Hartnell and JVR play the same LW position, and Carter needs a playmaker (Briere) to get him the puck with Hartnell cleaning up in front. JVR will be playing with Giroux a line pairing we could have in Philly over the next decade. Let those two grow up together with 10 – 15 minutes a game. I agree “Pyro” a good nickname for Pyorala will be playing with Gagne and Richards a line with 3 two way forwards. I still think Powe is going down (only 2-way contract left) leaving Asham-Betts-Lappy as our 4th line to start the season and Cote as a fill in for some home games against weaker teams.
it would have to be carcillo – based on who he has on the 4th and with Powe going down.
by SanDiegoScraps on Sep 29, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
correct
Carcillo on the 3rd line more offensive upside than Asham but they will both get shot and see who works out best.
He can’t learn to play defense with the Flyers because we care about the Flyers winning. The AHL is for learning to play. The NHL is for players who are ready for the NHL.
I don’t know what basis you have to say JVR had the second best camp of anyone on the team. He has been a defensive sieve who hammered home a wide open rebound and scored a weak goal from the boards.``
Defensive sieve is a little harsh.
Danny Briere is a defensive sieve.
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by Travis Hughes on Sep 29, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
dude
half the nhl forwards dont play defense .. they are not all mike pecas .. john leclair wasnot exactly a defensive wiz
by jack is better than asante on Sep 29, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
He is playing on the third line, he doesn’t have be +25 to be an effective player. He will get better as the season moves on and if he scores 20 goals who really cares. He will be getting some power play time and is the only goal scorer to pair with Giroux if you don’t play JVR with him you are waster Giroux by pairing him with 4th liners like Asham and Powe. The MVP of the league Ovechkin is only a plus 8 should he be playing in the AHL as well. MarioD must be a Devils fans.
JVR has factored in every game with good quality scoring chances if you watched or listen to games instead of reading off stat lines you will see he is always in the play. Once again he is a rookie and defense will come by starting with the Flyers he will be a much better player when it matters come playoff time. I don’t care what you say there is no way JVR is going to singled handedly cost us a playoff spot.
Ovie was a plus 8 in 80 games last season. JVR is -2 in five games.
That’s really the comparison you want to go with? If JVR scores 20 goals and is on the ice for 40 goals, EVERYONE should care.
a) that’s an incredibly small sample size, therefore it statistically means as much as Jimmy Rollins going 2/20 over a weekend.
b) I thought the preseason doesn’t matter?
Oh wait, this time, the preseason helps your argument, therefore it matters.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
When it’s his only experience with professional athletes, of course it matters.
In reference to firing a coach, I said the preseason doesn’t matter. In reference to a rookie trying out for the team, it’s the only thing to judge him on. And since we’re talking about defense, not a flukey skill like goal scoring, its not a terrible evaluation tool.
Small sample size, yes. But its consistent within itself (he didn’t go -5 in one game, he’s on the ice for a GA in every game) and consistent with what we should expect from a kid who’s highest level of competition is NCAA.
Discounting his AHL time of course. And his competition at the World Juniors is below NCAA level?
Also a “flukey skill like goal scoring”. Interesting. Then Ovechkin must be the luckiest player in the world since his 60+ goals every year are just smoke for his poor evaluation of a hockey player, since he’s on the ice for at least 50 goals against.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Additionally, you already blamed Parent for his -1 last night (despite not seeing it), so how many of JVRs other -4 were his fault? Certainly, you’re now going to say that it doesn’t matter, it’s a pattern. The fact that Parent took the blame – from your perspective – is inconsequential when you’re arguing how bad JVR is defensively. So, you’re essentially going to blame two people for having a puck bounce over a stick. Makes excellent sense.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
More than one player can be responsible for a goal against. The fact is that those three players consistently seem to be on the ice for goals against.
Occam’s Razor.
So it’s JVR’s fault that the puck bounced over Parent’s stick. Got it.
Damn rookie!!
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
The event of scoring a goal is totally flukey, prone to streakiness and luck. It, more than nearly anything else in sports, is subject to the sample size argument.
Yeah but Ovie scored over 100 pts which should help his +/-. JVR is not here to play defense in those games our defense was not set (Pronger and Kimmo didn’t play in the same game with the exception of last night, and a lot of goalies were scored on the backup goalies which they should have got. The fact that you also are critical of his goals means you got to have something personal against this guy. Did he beat you up in high school or something? In the end when it comes to goal scoring they don’t ask you how you got them they just ask you how many.
For me it is the scoring chances which impress me he is in the right place to get quality chances on every shift that is something you can’t teach a player you either got or you don’t. FInd me a 20+ goal scoring winger who is available and plays better D than JVR for only a 1.6 million dollar cap hit.
But the Flyers don’t need a 20 goal winger.
They need to improve their team defense. Which was the stated goal three months ago. That’s why they acquired Pronger and signed Laperriere instead of making different moves. And now they’re more interested in a 20 goal scorer…
Petr Sykora signed for $1.6. Some people think Bertuzzi could be a 20 goal scorer. I don’t, but I’ll mention him.
That’s why they acquired Pronger and signed Laperriere instead of making different moves. And now they’re more interested in a 20 goal scorer…
Yes now they do. Pronger and Lappy’s job is to improve team defense that should just about do it. You still need goal scorers to win games losing Lupul and Knuble means you need secondary scoring. Bertuzzi has been in the league forever and is certainly no better than JVR in his own end and Petr Sykora where yes can score 20 goals wasn’t signed by the Wild to play defense he was signed to add secondary scoring the same role JVR will have on this team.
by chrislanci on Sep 30, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They replaced lupol and knuble with Briere and Giroux.
Petr Sykora where yes can score 20 goals wasn’t signed by the Wild to play defense he was signed to add secondary scoring the same role JVR will have on this team.
Exactly. If the Flyers were looking for someone to play the role JVR will play, they should’ve signed Sykora and let JVR mature in the AHL and learn how to play more than a 40 game schedule.
Sykora is way more proven and reliable to do at least the same thing JVR will. But Holmgren didn’t act on him. So why act on JVR now?
Also, I vehemently disagree that Laperriere and Pronger will fix this team’s defensive ills. I think they go a little beyond counter-acting the dropoff in goaltending (which was the point, as they not coincidentally offset the money saved in goaltending) but the Flyers need more defensive improvement than those two guys.
Briere and Giroux were brought in this year to replace Lupul and Knuble? Wow, I thought they played last year. Oh yeah, they did. So who’s going to replace the 10 goals and 52 points those two had last year? Mika Pyorala? But he’s a rookie too! And who knows what defensive capabilities he has.
And seriously, Petr Sykora? The guy who only played in 7 of Pittsburgh’s 24 playoff games last year, registering exactly 1 assist. Who was a -3 in those games. And Pensburgh won’t miss him much, as evidenced by Lavender’s thoughts right here.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
They combined for 71 total games last season. About 10 of those Briere was injured in or coming back from injury and getting his legs back. The majority of Giroux’s games he was getting up to NHL speed.
By playing 140 games this season, they should match the 2008 numbers of Knuble, Lupol, Briere, and Giroux combined. (that would be 72g and 149pts)
So Briere is due for an 80 point season in 70 games, and Giroux is due for a 70 point season in 70 games? Really? Only once in Briere’s career did he get more than 1 point per game. Giroux averaged 0.61 points per game last year. Briere’s career average is 0.80 points per game. So at that rate, the pair should equal 98 points in 140 games. Almost 149, but not quite. How about something more feasible.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. They would both put up about a point a game this season if they were on the top two lines with two checking lines.
Putting giroux on a third line will reduce his point production.
Who’s to say they’re point per game players? Nothing in either player’s career suggests they are a point per game player, yet you just assume that to be true so that your point is proven. But you have no factual basis to claim this, in fact the history shows you’re wrong. Of course, you WOULD be right if the team went with two checking lines. And how does that help the team? It doesn’t. It’s bad hockey. But it makes you right.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Briere is basically a point a game player when he’s healthy.
Richards, Carter, and Gagne were all basically point per game players.
Putting those guys all on two lines and they would all be PPG players.
It’s pretty simple and obvious logic. I don’t know what “history” you’re looking at, since you didn’t cite it, but Danny Briere’s last four seasons
58pts, 65gp
95pts, 82gp
72pts, 79gp
25pts, 29gp
make it pretty obvious.
In his entire career, he’s got 473 points in 591 games. In the years before the ones you cited, these are his numbers:
65 pts, 82 gp
58 pts, 82 gp
60 pts, 78 gp
15 pts, 30 gp
So, he had 2 years (typo above) where he had 1.00 pts/g in his career. In the past two years, he’s a 0.90 pts/g. But it’s “pretty obvious” he’s good for 80 points in 70 games. A scoring rate he’s only equaled twice in 11 years.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Even conceding Danny can do something he hasn’t done in two years, you expect Claude Giroux, he of 44 career games played, to not only play 70 games this year, but get 70 points in those games. This from a second year player who has scored at a 0.61 pts/game rate. Sure, JVR may have doubts about his game since he’s only played 10 professional games, and Ryan Parent is unproven (career 64 games played) but Claude Giroux can be twice as good as he was last year, despite only playing in 44 career games. No, it makes perfect sense.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
But Giroux isn’t with Richards, so that still relies Giroux being twice as good as he was last year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re losing the hypo.
I said they could put up those number by being on the top two lines. Briere it seems is going to play with Carter/Hartnell, so Giroux would’ve wound up with Richards/Gagne.
Hypo?
They need to improve their team defense.
They replaced lupol and knuble with Briere and Giroux.
You got off the "hypo" of Petr Sykora a long time ago when stating Giroux and Briere, when playing 140 games:
should match the 2008 numbers of Knuble, Lupol, Briere, and Giroux combined. (that would be 72g and 149pts)
So the only way they do that is if:
a) Briere scores at a rate above his career average, and above what he’s done the past two years, but scores below the rate he has over the past four years combined;
b) Giroux scores at a rate nearly twice what he scored last year – his only professional season; AND
c) Both players double the amount of games they played combined last year.
OR:
a) John Stevens decides winning games isn’t important, and he stacks his top 2 lines with Richards, Gagne, Briere, Giroux, Hartnell, and Carter leaving Pyorala, JVR, Carcillo, Laperriere, Powe, Asham, and Cote to be on the ice the other 35-40% of the time.
So either you were wrong and the team didn’t replace Knuble and Lupul with Briere and Giroux, OR those two did replace Lupul and Knuble, meaning JVR, Pyorala, and Powe are really fantastic defensive players who can be trusted to not hurt the team defensively. In which case you’re also wrong.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
I said they replaced Knuble and Lupol on the top two lines with Giroux and Briere.
If they wanted another scoring winger in July (which they didn’t) they should’ve signed Sykora. They signed Lapperiere instead.
In July, this team was consistuted to have two scoring lines and two checking lines, because they needed to save cap space and attone for their goaltending shortcomings.
Suddenly, now, Holmgren reversed course nonsensically and wants three scoring lines. Which has resulted in having inferior players on those lines than if he had made that decision in July.
he wants 3 scoring lines now because we have 9 scorers on the team now, he didn’t know that JVR and Mika would be so effective and both make the team. im begining to wonder if you are eaither:
a) a troll
b) a penguins devils or rangers fan
You didn’t say they replaced them on the top two lines. I quoted you, but you obviously missed it. And then you changed the subject. Again.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 1, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Knuble and Lupul were on the top two lines. I’m not sure how you could replace them without putting the replacements on the top two lines.
Oh, so since Briere and Giroux aren’t on the top two lines, the team didn’t replace Knuble and Lupul with Briere and Giroux. Thus,
They replaced lupol and knuble with Briere and Giroux.is incorrect, and Giroux can’t score 70 points in 70 games, like you said. Or, some other excuse you have for how I’m not understanding you.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 1, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And Sykora is a perfect match for the top end of what to expect from JVR. Sykora had 25g, 46p last season.
Who doesn’t play defense. So how does that solve your complaint on JVR?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What you can rely on from Sykora is the high end of what JVR could do.
And it would allow JVR to go down to the AHL, learn to play a more than 40 game season, and not stunt his growth by bringing him up too soon.
So now you know JVR’s ceiling is Petr Sykora?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Sep 30, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
JVR’s ceiling should be Bobby Ryan 31g 26pts for 57pts. JVR is a Rookie but he is 20 years old lots of players break younger and perform much higher. I much rather get JVR the NHL experience now because once again come playoffs he should be in the full swing of things. Seriously Petr Sykora over JVR on top of that you would have to take on another pro contract capping the team out if they are to sign Betts. Also Sykora’s points came in more minutes than he would get here playing with better talent than Giroux as a winger on the Malkin and Crosby lines. With 10-15 minutes per game on 3rd line he would only get half the points he had last year. I was in favor of signing him to play with Giroux with JVR instead of Asham but no over JVR.
Ryan had years of growth in the AHL. Also, the Flyers have said JVR would only play 10-15 minutes a night, as well.
The big piece you are missing in your post is that JVR has never played more than 40 games in a season. Unless he was on HGH all summer, his body will not be productive for 82 games this year.
that is a total blanket statement at 20 years of age you really think he is going to wear down because he has to play more games he played big minutes in NCAA and won’t be getting that time at the NHL level so double the games and half the ice no change in what he has been doing
Yes, I do. The comparison I’ve seen made is to Blake Wheeler last season. (Game Log)
The same comment is made about every NBA rookie every year who is also twenty years old. And every NFL rookie.
It is totally legit. Especially this season, when the schedule is way more compact.
Out of curiosity, do you think the Olympic break will help? I understand he’ll still have to hold up for 82(hopefully more) games, but a few weeks off just before the stretch could help.
Yeah, you know, after I typed that last sentence I had that thought.
I don’t know.
I could see it really helping. Or I could see it totally screwing him up because his body thinks its the offseason and he’ll have only two weeks to recover.
They play exactly 60 games before the break. Exactly 20 games after the Winter Classic. So his play should start to fall off after that game until the break.
The last olympic year we saw the break reek havoc on a lot of players in a lot of different ways. What it will do to JVR I don’t know how to predict.
Wheeler
I think Wheeler needed more time in the AHL to adjust, NCCA doesn’t translate well t he only had a 45 pt Rookie campaign and was a major defensive liability with a +36 season rating (2nd highest in the league). More time in Providence would have done him good.
Did you miss the +36 on the year?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Oct 1, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
But if he’s challenging my Blake Wheeler comment:
“He’s going through the same stage as any first-year player will go through,” Julien said. "He’s going through a bit of a tough stage where he hasn’t scored lately.
“I think maybe he’s looking a little tired. He’s not as strong on the puck as he has been. He’s losing some battles, where at the beginning of the year, you saw a guy winning most of those battles and using his size and strength to his advantage.
“But this is a process that I think we expected. Right now, it’s just up to him to try and work his way through it.”
Pssst… there’s a whole page over here. ;)
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by Travis Hughes on Oct 1, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
So Mario did Jullen then comment well maybe we shouldn’t have brought Wheeler up so soon because he isn’t going to be as effective in May as he was in January. Is that your argument for JVR? Points are points, last year 1 more point in October = home ice in the 1st round. So if he falls off later in the season who cares if he still nets 20 goals in the beginning we need to win those games too. Since you were arguing that AHL seasoning was needed for JVR since he is coming from the weak NCAA, Wheeler is a perfect example of the exception to this MarioD Rule of Hockey. But since you arguments are always one sided you will use Wheeler who had a great year and was a Calder trophy candidate to argue against JVR. If JVR has the same season as Wheeler I and every other member of this forum will be very pleased with the rookie. I also wanted to point out his league leading +/- to support once again argue against your statements that JVR should be playing in the AHL to learn defense, another MarioD rule of Hockey. Thanks for bringing up Wheeler you now lose all points you been arguing. GAME SET AND MATCH, you have been SERVED, the crowd goes WILD.
This is really what you want on a team in “win now” mode?
But as the season wore on, the rookie wall kept keeping Wheeler from flaunting the scoring skills he’d shown in his first three months as a pro. And as his offensive game went, his game in the other two zones and without the puck followed. Wheeler never did add the physicality required for a player his size and he made plenty of rookie mistakes with the puck.
Does October count? Yes, but it’d be nice to have a player who could play the entire season for $1.6 million. Wheeler was a healthy scratch a number of games down the stretch.
But you know what counts more? The Playoffs. And Blake Wheeler was so tired that he was benched for the team’s last three playoff games after putting up an underwhelming 0 points, and a +/- of 0 in eight playoff games.
Congrats to wheeler on three great months of hockey. If JVR does what Wheeler did, the Flyers are going to have to send him down and trade for a forward to play the other five months of the hockey.
Lastly on Wheeler, he was playing in front of the Vezina Trophy winner who could erase Wheeler’s mistakes. JVR is on a team that is built around a defense that limits the chances their mediocre goalie will face. Which leads me to…
Is that your argument for JVR?
My argument against JVR is very simple: The Flyers need to improve defensively and JVR does not contribute to that.
Let me explain: Paul Holmgren chose to follow the Detroit method of cap allocation. He downgraded the goaltending position because it is salary inflated, and then was going to use that saved money more effectively through defense at the skater positions. So let’s look, via cap space, at what Holmgren ended up doing:
(Biron + Nitty) – (Emery + Boucher) = $2.425
That money and Lupul’s moved salary paid for Chris Pronger.
Then Alberts was no longer necessary, and he washed out that contract by signing Ian Laperriere, another defensive improvement.
So far, he stuck to the plan. He used Knuble’s cap space to leave himself some room this season and avoid amatuer tryouts in March, and to invite/sign Blair Betts. Still sticking to the plan, improving the needs that he identified in June (Veteran leadership, defense, faceoffs).
Then Holmgren went completely off the reservation and waived Jones in order to make room for Danny Syvret and JVR, two inferior defensive players.
That’s my argument against JVR. He’s the wrong player for this team at this time.
So basically you are saying the entire season is shot because we lost the amazing shutdown defensive capabilities of Randy Jones? Practically everyone in the hockey world thinks the Flyers have the best blueline in the league but that was including Jones, I guess they are probably down to around 15th now, with Syvret instead. Who knew the 6th D-Man met so much.
So basically you are saying the entire season is shot because we lost the amazing shutdown defensive capabilities of Randy Jones?
Yeah, that’s exactly what I said. So many times I’ve predicted the Flyers will miss the playoffs this year. I actually think they’ll be worse than they were in 2006-07. I doubt they could make the AHL playoffs as constituted.
Let me know if you want to start conversing like an adult.
The upside to keeping him up: He figures things out and is able to contribute offensively while being passable defensively.
The downside: He’s a liability who still needs extra work and is sent packing to Glen Falls.
I think it’s worth taking the risk for the potential reward. It’s a pretty solid group of forwards, I think we can afford to take a bit of a risk.
Because all conceivable evidence supports the fact that Emery and Boucher aren’t as good at playing hockey as Marty and Antero are….
What evidence, the fact that Emery has a statistically better season then the other 3 goalies, or the fact the Boosh has the consecutive shootout recored??
-May I pleased be enlightened??
Of course I post that, and THEN go to the Prospectus. This quote from today’s article should end the conversation.
The Philadelphia Flyers are easy enough to explain. When you lose Martin Biron to the New York Islanders and Antero Niittymaki to Tampa Bay, and replace them with Ray Emery and Brian Boucher, you hardly need advanced statistics to predict a dramatic decline in the crease.
You did watch the first two game of the season right? I’ll take the so-called “dramatic decline in the crease” at this point.
Yes, I did. And after that Carolina game, and watching Ray Emery kick rebound after rebound into the slot, I was thinking they would have to trade for a goaltender before thanksgiving. Fortunately, he played a stronger game on Saturday.
As always, two games is an incredibly determinative sample size.
I’ve said this a few times. Emery doesn’t have to be GREAT for this team to win. He may have “kicked rebound after rebound into the slot” (personally, I think that’s a little much… I thought he was strong on Friday but wasn’t challenged enough to pass judgment) but the defense was there to clear any and all loose pucks away. The Flyers defense is very strong, which means Emery doesn’t have to play lights out. The Chris Osgood in Detroit solution, if you want to put a label on it.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Oct 5, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Mario to an extent. On paper, Biron and Nitty are better than Emery and Boucher. But there are a lot of different factors to take into consideration here. Most notably, Emery’s determination after being exiled in Russia can’t be measured statistically.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Oct 5, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
In reply to both posts,
1) I think I’ve stated numerous times that the Flyers reconstituted this team with weaker goaltending but stronger skaters. I even called it the Detroit Model. I totally agree. However, the question posed to me was “Why would you say Emery is a downgrade on Boucher?” and that’s the question I answered.
2) Determination might help you work out in the offseason or practice harder but it can’t make you more talented. Not to mention, if its true that emery has been showing up late for things, I think that blows your idea that he’s going to be better because he’s more determined/motivated/et al.
Puck Prospectus would be the first to admit
goalies are notoriously difficult to predict. I completely agree with you that Biron to Emery is a significant downgrade as is, but it’s also equally true that Emery has always been a blue-chip prospect, has turned in some exceptional seasons, and is reaching his body’s prime now. Goalies are weird in their maturation (Tim Thomas headlines what we both know are hundreds of examples), and it’s possible that Emery could become lights out.
Likely? Of course it’s not. But it’s possible, and it’s not like he’s expensive. We have the flexibility to trade for a better goalie if need be, and in the meantime, if we’re getting under 3 GA per game pretty consistently, we’re good enough to win a lot of those games.
Emery has turned in some exceptional seasons? I think you’re confusing him with someone else’s numbers.
http://nhlreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=EMERYRAY01
2005-06 39gp 2.82 .902
2006-07 65gp 2.47 .918
2007-08 25gp 3.13 .890
That’s one good season, two incomplete seasons with mediocre numbers and bad numbers.
Not for you, Alon, but while I’m at the website let’s toss these numbers up:
2007-08 62gp 2.59 .918
2008-09 55gp 2.76 .915
Those are, of course, Marty Biron’s numbers in front of an atrocious defense.
I sort of agree with Travis. If you just look at the numbers, yes, it’s an obvious downgrade in goaltending. But taking into account the potential of emery(most will admit that he does have talent and a lot of untapped potential) and this is a risk/reward where we could end up getting emery’s best with his career in jeopardy.
With all that said, we have a little bit of cap space and if need be we could potentially swing a trade when the time comes. This could almost be looked at as a half-season tryout.
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Atlantic Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
82 | 48 | 27 | 7 | 103 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
82 | 47 | 28 | 7 | 101 |
|
Philadelphia
|
82 | 41 | 35 | 6 | 88 |
|
New York Rangers
|
82 | 38 | 33 | 11 | 87 |
|
New York Islanders
|
82 | 34 | 37 | 11 | 79 |
(updated 4.12.2010 at 9:21 AM EDT)
Flyers Schedule
Next 5 Games
|
@
Pittsburgh
|
Thu 10/07 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
St. Louis
|
Sat 10/09 | 8:00 PM EDT |
|
Colorado
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Mon 10/11 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
Tampa Bay
|
Thu 10/14 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
Pittsburgh
|
Sat 10/16 | 7:00 PM EDT |
Last 5 Games
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/09 | OT - L 3 - 4 |
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@
Chicago
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Sun 06/06 | L 4 - 7 |
|
Chicago
|
Fri 06/04 | W 5 - 3 |
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/02 | OT - W 4 - 3 |
|
@
Chicago
|
Mon 05/31 | L 1 - 2 |
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