Recapping the loss versus Washington
I mentioned it a few times yesterday, that my Internet connection blew up in my face on Sunday. There was no time to compile a recap of the game, and considering most of us know what happened at this point, it's not timely and I won't bother.
But, I will link you over to the SBN game page, which of course has a link to the Japers' Rink recap if you want their side of things.
Use this discussion to talk about the aftermath of the game if you wish, and take a crack at the questions to answer.
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Travis Hughes
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Matt Bradley’s been a little fighting machine lately, taking on Steve Downie in defense of Ovechkin the other night. Does he remember getting his face bashed in by Dan Carcillo, and does he do anything about it? Or does anybody else do anything about it?
Nothing happened.
The Flyers surely remember the 8-2 drubbing at the hands of the Caps from over a month ago. In that game, they came out flat and Emery looked terrible, likely due to injury. Do they show a different type of hunger from the outset today?
That’s funny.
How does Emery look? Using the small sample size of one game, can we determine if his injury the real cause of his poor play before heading to the IR?
He looked okay. Hard to blame him 100% for any of the goals against, though he didn’t look great on the penalty shot. Probably not the best idea to give him his first start in a month and a half against the highest-scoring offense in the NHL.
8 minutes. Over or under on Ole-Kristian Tollefsen’s ice/not getting injured time?
12:59 of ice time. Seemed as though he may have been injured three or four times, including once where it looked like nothing happened (he then looked to be favoring the left side of his face on the bench — go figure).
by Ben Feldman on Jan 18, 2010 12:10 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
First off, going to a caps game is still the worst sporting experience out there. It’s like going to the most cliched frat party you can imagine.
I love Dave Matthews Band, have seen them like 60 times in 8 different states. I’m still not going to play DMB music before the opening faceoff of a hockey game. (PS: Charlottesville, VA is not DC. It’s like six hours away. They are not a “local band”.)
The fans are so dumb it hurts. People around me all agreed that Hartnell’s goal didn’t count because he had a skate in the crease. Also, they still define every penalty call on the video screen. ie: “TRIPPING – Placing a stick or any body part in such a manner that causes the opponent to trip and fall.” This is in lieu of actually showing a replay of any penalty that was called, because why would we want to see what happened?
**
Bartulis and OKT are terrible. They didn’t have a single good shift.
Once they went down 4-2, you could literally see them fall apart. They stopped trying to score goals by working for them and started trying to just make perfect passes everytime they touched the puck. Blindly throwing the puck in the crease, forcing a pass through the eye of a needle, etc. It was disgusting.
This team has been ultra-finesse the entire season, so why stop now? I can’t recall a single “gritty” goal they’ve scored (not because they haven’t scored any, but because they are so few and far between). Unlike last season, where they were monsters in front of the net, this season, they seem to be looking for the ESPN highlight goal everytime.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
I’m saying it was a clear, dramatic change in the style of player from the first 45 minutes at that point.
well, I didn’t watch the game yesterday, I was being bored by the Vikings vs. Cowboys game, but I did DVR it (which I probably will erase later this week without watching).
That said, in addition to the “finesse” plays that this team seemingly tries to execute every game, I’m also a big fan of the huge howitzer from wherever in the zone, which misses the net by 3 feet, sails down the boards and out of the zone.
I don’t know how to look it up, but I’d bet the Flyers are tops in the league in missed shots that effectively clear the zone for the opposing team.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
we’re not scoring “gritty” goals because we don’t have a gritty player in front of the opposing goalie like we did with Knuble last year. Hartnell at times will post up in front but its not his office like it was Knubles or LeClairs. i think the whole “dump, chase, score ugly goal” strategy has fallen completely apart since Mike left.
with more gritty players than finesse players on this team, i believe losing that Knuble type player has had it negative effects on scoring more consistently. though in some ways we’re still gettin it done, but when you have 3 lines of power forwards, grinders/agitators and only 1 line of finesse you kinda need that type of guy out there.
you callin me a know-nothin? sir, i'll have you know i happen to know very little.
Brother you could not have said that any better if you tried. I was there yesterday and that cow bell ringing and “its your fault” chanting at the goaltender crowd is adolescent at best. They actually show the replays as the play has moved to the other end of the ice and then refuse to show them during the breaks. Probably because they are too busy entertaining the predominantly rookie crowd. Most of these people wouldn’t know the difference between Dale Hunter and Rod Langway. Not that knowing all the teams history is required for fandom but it shows just how nouveau the fans are and even worse nouveau riche.
by MJDII on Jan 18, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Forgot to mention that I kept a tally: In my field of vision, I saw 82% red Ovechkin jerseys. Well under 10% of the jerseys were over four years old. (Old cut/Old Colors).
Embarrassing.
Hey, it's better than before
At least they don’t boo their own players anymore.
Well, Tom Poti and Shaone Morrisonn sometimes.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 18, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
there are other good players in WSH besides Ovechkin
you callin me a know-nothin? sir, i'll have you know i happen to know very little.
Really? You don’t say?
(I myself plan to have Ovechkin, Green, and Backstrom at some point because I figure Ovechkin would be equivalent to a Lemieux, Green to a Bourque, and Backstrom’s my favorite player and has great hair)
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
You don’t think Mike Green is actually going to be as good as Ray Bourque do you?
I like Green as well, would take him on the Flyers in a heart beat but Bourque? Arguably one of the 3 best defensemen of all time.
No, no, but something to have. Like Ovechkin, the superstar forward of (what I hope) the dynastic Capitals. Green, the dynamic blueliner, etc. Not Green = Bourque, but Green in the same role as Bourque was, roughly.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
Mike Green age 22: 18 g, 38 a, 56 p
Ray Bourque age 22: 22 g, 51 a, 73 p
Mike Green age 22: 31 g, 42 a, 73 p
Ray Bourque age 23: 31 g, 65 a, 96 p
Average goals per team per season in 1984-84: 316
Average goals per team per season in 2008-09: 239
I don’t think the comparison is unfair — particularly when you compare them against their peers.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 19, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
When comparing against the greats IMO, it’s always unfair to compare one or two seasons. It has to be career, since consistency is the hallmark of Gretzky, Super Mario, etc.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 20, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
A lot of people bought new jerseys during the “Rock the Red” campaign. I wear a red Laich jersey now instead of the older whites.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
Yeah, the “All your Fault” chant is stupid. Not a fan at all. But I guess we can’t all have our organ player cue up “Crosby Sucks” after he torches us for 4 points.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Now where did I read that Ovechkin was thinking about telling the NHL to kiss his ass and go play back in Russia?
That would be highly comedic as well.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
You read it from a Pens fan
And it’s garbage. Don’t hold your breath.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I didn’t say it wasn’t garbage. It would just be high comedy if Ovechkin left and the phone booth goes back to being mostly empty.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
I guess for you it would.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Of course this means you assume that everyone is there to see Ovi play not to see a winner. Even if Ovi did leave the team would still be a damn good team. Would it be as good, no, but it still would be very competitive playoff team.
A man gotta have a code
well, i’d be willing to bet without Ovi, there would be a LOT less “fans” in the building, but hopefully (because I love Ovechkin, Flyers fandom aside) my theory will never be proven.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Because there would be less winning. Stars don’t sell seats. Wins do.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Now that I disagree with to a certain extent. There are lots of teams that “win” in this league, but that doesn’t translate necessarily into seat sales (ie. See Red Wings, Detroit, Devils, New Jersey)
There are also plenty of teams that lose a lot and they still sell out (see Maple Leafs, Toronto)
I think people come out to see superstars, they just turn into douchebags when their team has a superstar plus they are good team to boot. Again, just my personal opinion.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
TOR and MON are the only exceptions. Sure, DET can win and not sell out, but I don’t know of any other teams that don’t win and do sell out. TBL was full when they won, and empty now. They still have star power. ATL has star power but can’t sell. CBJ has star power but couldn’t sell. That’s my point.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
but that’s my point too. I’m not disagreeing that winning doesn’t equate fans in the seats, my point is that a TRUE measure of a fanbase is how your fans react when the team loses.
For example, in Philly’s worst year (a couple of seasons ago) the arena still was packed even when the product on the ice was god-awful. Toronto, Montreal etc. are all amazing fan bases.
My point is what would happen if Ovi walked and the Capitals sucked again. Would we even be having this discussion about the atmosphere in the rink?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
The Flyers lost out to a fucking parade on New Year’s day. Ahem. There aren’t many fan bases that are immune from prolonged losing, including 4/6 of the Canadian teams. That’s too high a bar, IMO.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
HA. So 1000’s of Philly fans went to a parade vs. watching a hockey game on TV is your defense?
I was at the game and it was at least 40% Flyers fans and the tickets were outrageous. I’d say that was a better measure of Flyers fandom.
Let’s see how well the Caps fans travel next year when they play the Rangers in New York.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I think he’s pointing that more people watched the parade on TV than the Flyers’ game. The Mummer’s are an insitution in this city and the networks/local sports media was too busy creating controversy to properly market the Winter Classic. The Penn State bowl game didn’t help matters much.
ah yes, that makes more sense, course, 15,000 Flyers fans were actually at the game.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not even really trying to bash the PHI fans. Everyone knows how passionate the fan base is, and everyone knows the downside of that passion. I’m just saying every fan base is prone to lapses in interest when the team isn’t so hot, especially when there are other options in town.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Actually, when the Flyers missed the playoffs several years in a row in the late 80s and early 90s, there was still a season ticket waiting list.
Every fan base is NOT prone to totally abandoning their team except when it wins.
Thats the whole fucking point you still don’t get.
So what list of teams is that? MON, NYR, TOR, PHI? You aren’t even counting all the original 6 or Canadian teams. If you have a definition that excludes 2/3 of the Canadian teams then that’s an immediate sign that your definition is flawed.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
of course it’s flawed, there is no perfect metric to measure a fanbase, it’s a hypothetical argument at best. I think the original point of what Mario was saying is that the current Washington Capitals “bandwagon” fanbase is ridiculous.
And my point to support the fact that most of the current fans are “on the bandwagon” is to hypothetically imagine what the Caps fanbase would look like if Ovi took his on ice show back to Russia.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, trying to measure a fanbase is ridiculous, but we didn’t come here trying to throw stones. I just wanted to see your guys’ take on the actual game played, but instead it’s this “Caps fans are bandwagoners” bullshit.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
After an 8-2 beatdown and a 5-3 loss, you expect us to care about the actual game that was played.
Quite naive of you.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry
Guess I expected more from true fans.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Touche
I think it was clearly a mistake to put Emery in net.
Better?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
I posted comments on the game. But Captain Caps wanted to focus on comments of the arena.
But its all our fault that he came running over here today. (Not yesterday, mind you, but today about an hour after we started talking about the arena. He had 19 hours to come to this site and talk about the hockey game, but magically the moment we mentioned the idiotic atmosphere, that’s when he came running. Incredibly unlucky timing, really.)
I was outside yesterday sorry. I actually checked late last night but there was no recap up.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
yes, but choosing to get into a debate about one guy’s subjective experience at the Caps game is pretty hysterical.
It’s kind of like Richards trying to defend his “partying” ways to the Philly media.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
How so? (And are you aware of my ongoing history with Huckleberry?)
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
We don’t have a history anywhere outside of your deluded brain. I don’t give a flying fuck about you. Grow up.
But you’ll keep responding like a child, Huck.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Make me.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, as a rule of thumb, typically when my team beats another team, I take a pretty objective stance on their view of the game.
Just as Richards should have just ignored the media goading him into a heated exchange, so I figured you would take the high road.
However, if you have some ongoing pissing match with mario, feel free. I am officially amused.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Ignorant?
You honestly don’t think Canadians are more passionate and knowledgeable about hockey?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
By definition being a canadian makes you more passionate and knowledgeable about hockey?
Absolutely not. Thats ignorant and stereotypical.
I’m canadian, and I’m definitely more knowledgeable than mario, but who’s counting right?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Did I say by definition? No, it’s not by definition, but it’s true. Sorry to tell you. 1/3 of the country watched the WJC. What American market do you think had 1/3 watching the WJC?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
If there was an American market that produced high ratings for that game, I’d bet my life savings on Buffalo.
Right. Or just people that really love hockey. Like… almost all of Canada. You think the people in MON, TOR, OTT, EDM, CGY, and VAN, places with pro teams, weren’t watching the WJC? People watch the college Bowl football games in the US regardless of whether they have an NFL team because the US is football-crazy. Canada is hockey-crazy. How can you not grasp this simple fact?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
What’s your point? Do people in NY, PHI, CHI not watch college football? Didn’t a college football game beat out a pro-hockey game in PHI on New Year’s day?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
What are you talking about? People in those cities all watch college football and in fairly large numbers.
A man gotta have a code
I’d say folks in Phoenix, Jax, Dallas, Chicago, Seattle, etc. would disagree. NFL is the most popular sport in the country, but college football isn’t far behind even in NFL markets. Penn State seemed to get pretty nice numbers on that New Years day game in Philly for instance.
A man gotta have a code
Northwestern is in Chicago metro area and Arizona State is in Phoenix metro area. I don’t get what having the college in the actual city has to do with anything anyways. Many people go to school in smaller communities and then move to big metro areas.
A man gotta have a code
He also listed Texas as an example, and they have 2 pro football teams. Florida, one of the states where NCAA football is more popular, also has 2 NFL teams. California has 2 as well.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
And yes I was talking about schools and you are talking about states in an attempt to take me out of context.
A failed attempt.
You said Alabama and Texas. Both are states. I’m positive that it wasn’t just their respective campuses that watched that game; it wasn’t even those states. The BCS games are popular nation-wide, regardless of whether an NFL team or an NCAA team exists in each community.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
you forgot Temple
playing in the mighty MAC conference.
Ok, substitute Redkins for Flyers and you get the same thing. There are always exceeptions. And most of those are a result of longtime fanbases who were built on a winning tradition.
A man gotta have a code
The Eagles would be an exception to your exception then, no? Three NFL championships in 1948, 1949, and 1960 and a total of two trips to the Super Bowl (both losses) isn’t what I would call a winning tradition, haha.
I said winning, not championships. As I said before there are always going to be exceptions, like the Cubs in Chicago, but by and large if a team wins it will draw better than if it loses.
A man gotta have a code
But I think championships are what create the real bonds between fan and team. For instance, all the kids I know around the age of 15 who are now die-hard Pats fans. That didn’t happen because we live in NE.
And I’m not trying to bash Caps fans either, I just find it humorous when the subject of “fandom” gets debated and the few “diehard” hockey fans of that team try to defend the honor of the entire populace by trotting out the “well, no fanbase is immune to losing” argument
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Well that rule is almost always applicable. And considering the Caps fan bashing that is going on in this post maybe I’m being defensive. But in basically every major sport losing is punished by decreased ticket sales. The NFL is the only general exception, then there are a very small handful of cities for the other sports that are immune from losing. As a general rule I’d say it holds pretty well.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I actually think that Philly fans are stupid sometimes when it comes to the blind loyalty. Perhaps if they showed their displeasure with the teams by not attending games when the team is awful (see Flyers, Eagles), there would be more change.
Not sure I buy that. Both eagles & Flyers have ownership groups that want to win. Staying away wouldn’t change their mindset. I think staying away works only when owners focus is the bottom line and fans make them pay for not putting a decent product on field/on ice.
A man gotta have a code
Really? The Eagles have not always had an ownership group that focused on putting winning teams on the field. That’s changed under Lurie, but that doesn’t explain the blind loyalty throughout the 80’s and 90’s when our owner was blowing away his money at the craps table or Braman who couldn’t even be bothered to come to a game from his home in France.
And Snider wants to win—yes—100%—but he is also stuck in the 1970’s and unwilling to change his idea of what hockey as a sport should be, despite the fact that the post-lockout game is completely different.
Eagles were never bad in 80’s or 90’s, they just didn’t win championships. There is a diference between that and having a losing team.
A man gotta have a code
But they never did enough to win it all and that was obvious to anyone who was a real fan. Isn’t the objective to win a championship? If it isn’t, then why own a team? And they had more than a few losing/disappointing seasons. My God, I remember when McMahon was our starting QB when he was a has-been. 3-13 in ’98 and 5-11 the following season are bad seasons.
That’s unfortunately not the case.
1980: 12-4 (Super Bowl loss)
1981: 10-6 (Wildcard loss)
1982: 3-6
1983: 5-11
1984: 6-9-1
1985: 7-9
1986: 5-10-1
1987: 7-8
1988: 10-6 (lost first round)
1989: 11-5 (lost first round)
1990: 10-6 (lost first round)
1991: 10-6
1992: 11-5 (lost second round)
1993: 8-8
1994: 7-9
1995: 10-6 (lost second round)
1996: 10-6 (lost first round)
1997: 6-9-1
1998: 3-13
1999: 5-11
My bad. You guys always seemed competitive to me in the 80’s. Maybe it was because the Cards were in the division at the time.
A man gotta have a code
The Eagles were thisclose to moving to Arizona in the 80’s because Tose had such a big gambling problem. He was in a big, big hole financially. That precludes one from putting the best product on the field.
Ah yes. He used Arizona as leverage just like Irsay did with the Colts. Braman took over in mid 80’s right?
A man gotta have a code
Yes, and by all accounts I’ve read, Tose didn’t use AZ as leverage at all and he was dead serious on moving the team. He was in deep. The only thing that saved him from it, and subsequently the Eagles, was the fact that a reporter got wind of it and leaked the story. All HELL broke loose in this town.
I don’t disagree hat Philly’s core hockey fanbase is bigger than the Caps. The team has been around longer, had more success sooner, and developed a rabad fanbase that has stuck with the team. However, in most cases, when the team loses people buy tickets less in every sport in almost every city, especially if the losing last more than a season. Think back to Edmonton when they were a mess. They couldn’t draw and were begging for gov’t money.
A man gotta have a code
Detroit – Decking population plus an economy that has been tanking slowly for years. In addition, the fans have gotten used to winning too much.
Toronto – huge population base and only one team. Not to mention its the number one sport in the country. Quite frankly Leafs fans are crazy. I wouldn’t pay that kind of money to see the teams they’ve been putting on the ice recently. They’ve got no stars I might add.
NJ – 3rd team to arrive in Metro area that shouldn’t have added another team. Played winning hockey that can most kindly be called boring. I’m a huge hockey fan, but even I couldn’t stand to watch the Devils when they were winning Cups playing the trap. Almost everyone I know from Jersey were already Rags or Isles fans before the Devils arrived.
A man gotta have a code
That’s if you include every sport. The NYC area has 3 teams in the NHL alone, and 9 in the four major sports. The Devils have had to compete with 2 other hockey teams and 6 other more entrenched sports teams for the public’s interest. Boring hockey didn’t help either.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Jan 18, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Here’s a great article about Caps’ fans badwagon jumping from the Post.
“I put my feelers out and paid face value for them,” said Van Der Donck, “but it’s difficult to get tickets because of all the people on the bandwagon. But there are a lot of good fans.”
“I’m a convert this year,” said Stanley, who resides in Arlington. "I’ve always wanted to go, and now it’s convenient and the play is fantastic. “It’s going to be very difficult to win, but at this point, it doesn’t really matter — it got people interested.”
“This is the closest thing to a home game that we’ve had,” said Detroit defenseman Bob Rouse.
I guess that last quote should be a giveaway… who am I kidding, Caps fans can’t remember all the way twelve years ago. Its an article about the 1998 Stanley Cup Finals. Before the five years when no one went to Caps games again, before this current temporary relevance.
We’ll see. If they keep winning and get a Cup I’d bet this generation of fans sticks with the team more than past ones.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
The biggerst thing is you’ll have younger generations who grow up pulling for the Caps. That is where the future stability of the fanbase will come from.
A man gotta have a code
by Carl Putnam on Jan 18, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Which is why there are still lots of NYI fans, even if they don’t go to the games. That Dynasty cemented an entire generation of fans. They don’t all go to the games now because of the well documented issues with the team, but they are still there.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Don’t forget, the arena is terrible.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 18, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Is it really that bad? I was just up there a few weeks ago and it was fine for being almost 40 years old. Granted I had seats in the lower level, but nothing struck me as out of the ordinary (except the narrow passageways between the concourse and the actual arena). The surrounding area was a bit barren save the hotel next-door, but certainly nothing that would deter me from going again.
The Nassau Mausoleum has had multiple electrical and water problems in recent years. It’s just kind of run down, and ugly (which isn’t necessarily a mark of a bad arena, but it doesn’t help).
It’s also the most uncomfortable arena I’ve been in.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 18, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
This
The biggerst thing is you’ll have younger generations who grow up pulling for the Caps. That is where the future stability of the fanbase will come from.
That hasn’t happened before. Bondra-Kolzig-Oates-Gonchar and co didn’t draw crowds at all. Well, not entirely true. But for all the winning going on, you’d think they’d have had better attendance.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
That always surprised me as well. They had a pretty solid team for a good half decade. But I think that not having multiple successful seasons in a row hurt them. As well as D.C being an overwhelming football town first.
Not that much I don’t think it hurt. IIRC attendance was poor into the firesale season (2002-2003 I think). Certainly it was tough for ownership in the two and half seasons after the lockout.
Spot on about football.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
There were plenty of fans in the seats when I was a youngster at the Cap center once they started going to the playoffs. Those teams best player was a defensive defenseman. Backstrom and Semin, both are much better offensive players than any of those teams had. Winning brings in way more fans than stars ever do.
A man gotta have a code
Well, consider that I run a satire site and find comedy in mostly everything, including the current state of the NHL, yes, i would find that highly entertaining.
Mostly because I hate Bettman and the current state of the game, but that of course, isn’t the issue.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
It would be funny, maybe, but then it offers others the chance to go to games. What I’m seeing with friends and such is that they want to see games, but they get sold out before my friends can get tickets. It is sorta nice to be able to decide to go see the Caps at 6pm on a weeknight.
And CSN-DC HD is really good for watching hockey.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
Which is why I don’t put more effort into seeing games.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
Basically one idiot Pens fan took an issue that came up during an NHLPA conf. call that was weeks old to boot and inferred what he wanted to. Ovi has already joked about the whole thing. I personally hope this type of crap keeps coming up. It’s like getting booed all the time. It means people respect/fear you.
A man gotta have a code
i think we sat in the same section.
were you in the one with the caps fan who actually bought a jersey with “flyers suck” on the name tag? total gibrone.
i feel bad for the caps fans who have been with the team from the continental airlines arena days. they have to put up with higher ticket prices and dull witted fans.
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
I was in 428. I imagine most of the arena felt Hartnell’s goal was called back due to having a skate in the crease.
Other thing I forgot: Did anyone else notice that the first two rows of seats in most of the 400 level were unsold and had a tarp over them?
was in 412. guess caps fan behavior is viral.
as for the hartnell goal-it was down the other end, and i could tell from the rafters there was a distinct kicking motion. that, and it was hartnell so i had the feeling it wasn’t going to stand.
the one nice thing i saw yesterday from their fans is the guy who had to leave after getting smoked in the head by a puck got a standing O.
and did anyone notice there was someone dressed as an astronaut by the flyers bench?
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
That dude in the astronaut gear was hysterical. He kept giving the bench the I have my eyes on you sign. Felt bad for the old guy that got whacked.
Oh shit that's my section.
I really hope you were in the group of people behind me, they were interesting people.
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
What row were you in?
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
Obviously not. Who could stand to watch a game with you? You’re a condescending prick to the people on your own Flyers board.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
“And F&B drops the hammer”
Joe Beninati Mike Green style
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
My dad and I were in 5th row in 107. I had a guy heckling my 75 year old father telling him to “take back home” and “came here to watch a real team, huh” All the while I have an entire row of adults with cow bells behind us screaming every time a penalty was called as if it was unfathomable. And I was near a guy who had a 22 Knuble Jersey on that said “Puck Philly”. I would post the photo but I don’t know how to do it?
Upload the pic somewhere, like, tinypic.com, then copy the 4th url that appears. It should say “direct link for layouts”. Then, in the “post a comment” click the little icon that looks like a picture of a tree. Paste the link in the box that pops up, and viola.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
I am an idiot. The photo doesn’t show up in the comments. I have seen photos in peoples post before how do you do that?
Did you use a digital camera or a camera phone?
If you used a camera phone, try sending the photo to your normal e-mail address through text message. Then save it to your computer. Then upload using the instructions I posted above, and it should show up.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
send that to puck daddy, I’m sure that will make the “jersey fail” blog
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I did. Along with that I did talk to the guy and he seemed to be more of a Knuble fan then a Flyer hater. But still doesn’t makes ense of spending that kind of money on a statement.
Almost as bad as the “Fartsmell” one.
I don’t get spending that much money on a jersey like that, either. But hey, they aren’t spending my money to look like a fool, so more power to them.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
No way as a Caps fan I’m defending that. A jersey foul is a jersey foul. Heck its worse when its one of your own. Never get why people spend all that money on a jersey and put crap like that on the back.
As for the fans, try going to any barn that is not yours and not being annoyed. I’ve seen all the moronic behavior in the world over the years at games all over the country and in every sport. No one has corned the market on stupidity.
A man gotta have a code
by Carl Putnam on Jan 18, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve been to lots of other arenas in a lot of sports.
Caps fans win, no questions asked, for both Douchiest and Most Ignorant of the Sport You Just Spent a Hundred Dollars to Watch.
Believe whatever you like. I could find similar comments about every fanbase in this country from rival fans.
A man gotta have a code
Especially this particular fan base
The lack of self-awareness is hysterical.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Better than Carolina
I’d say.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
The Fartsmell one actually makes me laugh. But mainly because Hartnell was so cool with it that he actually made the owner of the jersey say he was a good guy.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 18, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I had 5 flyers fans behind me standing up and cheering until they noticed the goal didn’t go up on the board. Maybe they were too drunk to see Hartnell kick the puck?
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
Until they showed the replay how would anyone have known it wasn’t a goal which was after the review? It actually looked like he kicked it to his stick at first. That made no sense.
I knew right away that he kicked it in and so did about 95% of the arena. His stick was on the other side of his body so that doesn’t make any sense.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
DC isn’t the greatest place to watch a hockey game, but it’s not as bad as you characterize it either. There are plenty of critiques thrown at your own fan base and their in-arena behavior, no need to re-hash that now. I hate the lack of replays in VC. Hate. But as far as putting the penalty rules on the big screen, it develops the hockey IQ of the fan base. Sure, it may rub you wrong as the most intelligent and seasoned hockey fan evaaaah, but the alternative is that you don’t develop the fans’ understanding of the game. I’d venture to say I go to more Caps games than you do, and I manage to ignore some of the annoying stuff, I’m sure you could do it too. There are stupid fans everywhere, that’s just reality. Yeah, Caps fans can be dumb, and since it’s in DC there are more dumb Caps fans. But I’ll agree with zephyr that there were plenty of stupid Flyers fans in the arena. Plenty.
It’s like going to the most cliched frat party you can imagine.
So Richards and Carter must have had a blast, right?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I just think it’s rich that a fan base that gets all up in arms when it gets painted with broad strokes would throw the same crap back.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I personally think Canadiens fans are the worst, but who am I to judge?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Not MarioD
And he is the only one to judge.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In other words, a fanbase can’t win with you. They are ignorant, but yet you don’t want them to be educated. By the way, a certain Canadian on-ice official from Strathroy, ONT could use help with that definition judging by what I saw on Saturday night in Glendale.
A man gotta have a code
No no, if its an expansion team in Texas, I’m fine with defining tripping.
When its a 36 year old franchise that never moved, and has a fanbase that likes to pretend they are incredibly passionate and do lots of coordinated cheering, and they need tripping defined for them…
The core doesn’t. But it never developed a fanbase in the first place. Until now, when the beginning of that is happening. I’d wager to say I became a Caps fan because I became a hockey fan, and to develop a fanbase you need people to become hockey fans because they are Caps fans (for example).
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
Why does it matter what is put up on the little lcd boards around the bowl? Should it just say “PeNaLtY?” It’s not like it goes up on the jumbotron and there is a break in play so all the drooling fans can somehow comprehend what just happened.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
Because nothing goes on the jumbotron, so as not to distract from the definitions on the LCDs.
Whereas, most arenas, actually show a replay of the offending play on the jumbotron.
That doesn’t have anything to do with what I said.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
The jumbotron does show penalty replays on occasion.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
I just think its rich that you have to run around the internet defending everything associated with the caps.
You have 195 comments on the Panthers board, 65 on the San Jose/LA board, 22 on the Penguins board, 91 on the Colorado board…
Go outside once in awhile instead.
Oh shit, the IRL card!
You don’t know shit about my life or what I do, so don’t bother trying that shit, Huck.
And I have way more than 22 on the Pens and SJS boards. And I don’t go to the FLA board to argue with those guys because they don’t bash the Caps like hacks. I think Whale4Ever does some great work so I go over there. I think Hooks and Frank D do great work so I go there. And I think the guys here do great work, so I stop by here. Now that I have my Huckleberry here, well, that’s just one more incentive to stop by.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Yes! You have someone to argue with on the internet so you’ll go to that site.
Are you 12 years old?
I don’t argue on those sites, for the most part. I discuss hockey. I argue with you because you’re an ignorant and stubborn douche bag.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Two goal Green?
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
But I’ll agree with zephyr that there were plenty of stupid Flyers fans in the arena. Plenty.
Well there were until they walked out of the game halfway through the third. Amazing how many “fans” were running out early. I hate that more than anything. (Don’t worry I yell at Caps fans that do that too..)
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
i live in charlottesville, know some of the dmb people… its like 2 hours from dc
by fitzy first on Jan 19, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
the funniest thing...
about going to the game were the three banners hangining in the rafters proudly proclaiming whichever WNBA team resides there had the largest attendence for the season.
it’s like winning the special olympics, really.
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
My brother pointed that out about five seconds after we entered the arena. It’s truly amazing.
But, I guess since there isn’t a franchise in that arena that’s ever won a championship…
i thought it was a HUGE mistake puttin Emery in net yesterday. a month or so since his last start, his previous game vs WSH we lost 8-2. it definitely would’ve been wiser to go with Leighton and let Emery go against Colombus.
i don’t blame Emery for those goals though either. the penalty shot goal i’ll give him a lil pass with it being his 1st game back and Ovechkin takin it. Emery looked bad but imagine what Leighton would’ve looked like. no matter who’s in they still would’ve been beat by Ovechkin
the checking seemed pretty weak despite the number of hits. almost like it had little to no effect. i don’t know if Bradley was tryin to take Tollofsen out of the game or what but that one late hit in the corner should’ve been called. it was 3+ seconds after he dished the puck and was away from the play. OKT was clearly targeted. and to make it worse he sucks and was only in 1 game prior to being off for a while. Carcillo played well and was at times the best forchecker for us. Giroux is awesome. Carter would be too if he never missed. our bottom lines continue to be the best
you callin me a know-nothin? sir, i'll have you know i happen to know very little.
Not to put more of a damper on anyone’s day, but it’s pretty depressing when you glance at the standings and the Flyers are at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Islanders are beating us, really?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 2:45 PM EST reply actions
Please, please stop looking at that nonsense and start reading the real standings:
Every other professional league in north america organizes its standings by winning percentage. There’s no reasonable explanation for the NHL’s insistence on organizing by a terrible statistic.
Also, that will demonstrate the ridiculousness of the propoganda bullshit that the Caps took the top seed in the conference yesterday.
No, actually, it’s not.
The irony of the fact that earlier in the thread you’re claiming Caps fans are knowledgeable of hockey, and the posts you’re making now proving your lack of knowledge of hockey, is not lost on me.
It’s a system, not propaganda. The league didn’t design the thing to help or to injure anyone. It’s a system, nothing more, nothing less. I understand why you don’t like it and would prefer to go with winning percentages. I don’t really care much one way or the other.
A man gotta have a code
You see, there was a time when the NHL awarded points for “ties” so that judging by “winning percentage” was not an accurate reflection on the standings. They went away from ties and had the subsequent changes, but the point system still remained.
The irony of the fact that Huck is calling you stupid for not realizing why the Caps are not in fact in first place, despite confusing winning-percentage with possible-points-gained-percentage, is not lost on me.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
You really don’t even understand what a winning percentage is, do you?
Because you make a distinction between “winning-percentage with possible-points-gained-percentage”, when there isn’t one.
Actually there is one. A team that is 5-0-5 has won 50% of their games, but 75% of their points, asshole.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
No, they would have 5 wins, and 5 half wins. Which makes their winning percentage:
5 + 5/2 = .750
This is how NFL winning percentage is calculated.
And the NFL doesn’t have a point system so it’s not applicable. That’s the main difference between NHL standings and others that you still don’t fucking get.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
And the NFL doesn’t have a point system so it’s not applicable.
And neither does the NHL.
The NHL “points system” is meaningless. Its a poorly made statistic. The standings are determined at the end of the year by winning percentage.
How can you not grasp this simple fact?
Hahahahaha. The points system is meaningless? Tell that to the Buffalo Sabres last year. Same number of wins as the 8th seed, fewer points. They had 2 more regulation losses, and two fewer OT losses, so they didn’t make the playoffs. They had identical winning percentage (50%) and a different breakdown of losses, resulting in a different number of points, meaning no playoffs. How can you not grasp this simple fact? Dig in, Huck.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
How dumb are you??
http://nhl.jzap.com/0809/standings.html
Winning Percentages
Mon .5671
Fla .5671
Buf .5549
That is percentage of possible points gained, not wins, you ass hat. How dumb are you?
MON, FLA, BUF all had 41 wins in 82 games. 50% WIN percentage.
They had different POINT percentages and thats’ what determined the playoffs.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Dude, you can’t do math. Just go back to your own board.
Winning percentage = wins + OTL/2
Now go try to comprehend that fact.
No, winning % equals Wins divided by Games played. Idiot.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Oh really? How so? You totally are not grasping this, are you?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Since they compute winning percentage the normal, mathematical way I displayed above.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/standings/_/year/2008
PCT: Win Percentage
The eagles went 9-6-1 that year.
Their winning percentage is ,594
9/16 = .5625
9 + .5 /16 = .59375
Interesting. Still not mathematically accurate, but it supports your point. But as I’ve said all along the NFL isn’t applicable because it doesn’t do the point system. It’s simply not true that win % is the same as possible points gained %.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Despite your unfounded protestations, it is how winning percentage is calculated.
What you still don’t understand is that “points” are not real. Their a made up statistic meant to represent winning percentage, but they do it terribly.
Which is the point I made two hours ago and you still can’t grasp.
How do they do it terribly? And if they actually determine playoff seeding how are they made up? And if points calculation is different from winning %, then how are they actually the same? You keep relying on your own statements, and the NFL’s flawed equation, but by any mathematical definition of “percentage” you would have to look at Wins/Total games. You want to give half credit for a tie or OTL, but that’s not a win. It’s a proxy to give half-credit for certain non-wins.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
They don’t determine anything.
Seeding is determined by winning percentage. Points are a terribly misleading statistic invented to simplify winning percentage to a cumulative number rather than a fluctuating value.
In that misguided simplification progress, they left out a number of complexities, like games played, that actually determine winning percentage.
If the GWG is scored at 19:59 of the third, the losing team gets 0 points. If the GWG is scored at :05 of OT, then the losing team gets 1 point. Both teams lost the game. Both teams see their win% decrease identically. They are not treated the same in the standings based on points, though both lost the game. Neither team won; and the team losing in OT most certainly did not “half win” the game, whatever that means. They just get half credit based on points.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Which is that a loss is sometimes a win? Sorry, no. I’m holding by the definition of “win” as “your team won the game, scoring more goals than the other.” Win percentage is the percentage of games that your team outscores the other. The NHL grants points for some losses, but they don’t mysteriously become wins.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
So step 1 to finding out “winning percentage” is not “how many wins did they have?” Interesting math.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Explain it then.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Right. So step 1 for you is counting losses as half-wins. That’s not what “win” means. You’re an idiot.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I think the true idiot is whoever in the NHL thought “shoot-outs” would be a GREAT idea.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Me, the NFL, every other statistician and mathematician on the planet… no idea what we’re talking about.
Guarantee you take a 41-30-11 record to any mathematician and they will tell you that the team only won 50% of those games.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
No. You’re just wrong. An OTL is not a win. Sorry. It’s not a half win either. It’s a loss, but you get credited with one point.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
And yet, somehow, it doesn’t work the way you’re describing it.
Here is an NHL team ranking that uses win percentage. How so??
In figuring winning percentage, ties count as half a win and half a loss.
ESPN's take on hockey?
How could it be wrong!
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
So you’re going to go to bat for ESPN’s hockey coverage now?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
ESPN’s made up statistic that has no impact on the playoffs is clearly more accurate and important than the NHL’s made up statistic that does influence playoff standings.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Jan 18, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
OH MY GOD THE NHL DOESN’T FUCKING HAVE TIES LIKE THE NFL DOES.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 18, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Umm…the heading says RPI, not win%. I think I misread that, but whatever. NHL website lists your “winning pct” as “pts %.” Right from THE AUTHORITY, you know, the guys who made the system in the first place.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What’s funny is the link you provided says “Teams Ranked by Points Percentage”
http://nhl.jzap.com/0809/standings.html
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
by zephyr on Jan 18, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Shouldn’t it read “propoganda percentage”
/mario’d
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jan 18, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You really can’t comprehend this?
“Points” are a poorly designed statistic that reflects “Winning Percentage”.
“Point Percentage” is, mathematically, “Winning Percentage” because they are derived from the exact same data.
Just because they are derived from the same data does not make them the same thing. Win% looks at the percentage of outcomes that are wins, the first column. Points% looks at something else.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Except it doesn’t in the NHL or the NFL.
You can argue all you want, but I’ve demonstrated mathematically that you’re wrong.
You can’t provide a single instance where winning percentage is calculated in the ridiculous fashion you claim.
Huh? Proven mathematically? No. You can’t demonstrate a single instance where NHL playoff seeding was determined on anything other than points%.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
No, “Win Pct” is computed by dividing the number of wins by the number of games played.
Points Pct is computed by dividing the number of points earned by the total possible number of points that could have potentially been earned.
Two different stats, two different formulas.
I agree with you, btw, that Points Pct is a more meaninfgul way to rank teams.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
No, "Win Pct" is computed by dividing the number of wins by the number of games played.
Except I’ve already demonstrated that the NFL proves you wrong.
And we are talking about the NHL, with a different system. And really, the NFL just bastardizes “win%” to account for ties. That’s not what the definition of “win%” is.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
The NFL is the leading mathematical entity in the world. Whatever they say about statistics applies universally, not just in the NFL.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Jan 18, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
Huh? NFL?
We’re talking hockey, aren’t we?
The NFL and MLB use the “Games Behind” system. Totally different system to calculating points…although it gets you to the same place in the end.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
No, they don’t. They use winning percentage.
Games behind, again (just like “points”), is merely a derivation of winning percentage.
Well, it would get you to the same place in the end if the NHL hadn’t instituted the consolation point. It’s the 3-point-game that screws everything up, so that winning percentage and point percentage are no longer the same.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
But they’re not.
The NHL has determined that an OTL is worth 1/2 of a win.
Again, pts only derive from winning percentage.
The NHL has determined that an OTL is worth 1/2 of a win.
Right, but it’s not a win. It’s not half a win. You get 1 point, half credit, as if you won. But you did not win. Win% is only part of the story. You can have a higher win% and still get beat out by a team with a higher point%.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
No. Its worh half a win. Just like a tie is worth half a win in the NFL. Just like ESPN treats it as half a win.
Its half a win. Which is one point in the dumbed down standings.
You can NEVER EVER EVER have a win percentage that is not the same as point percentage, because points are a mere derivative of wins.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/3219785465_c18dcd5b78.jpg?v=0
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
CAR had a higher win% than 3 playoff teams, and the same win% of the Caps, who won the division, and the Senators, who made the playoffs. But they didn’t have the same point%, so they lost a playoff spot.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
The NHL has determined that an OTL is worth 1/2 of a win.
No.
The NHL has determined that an OTL is worth the equivalent of 1/2 of a win in terms of points.
You know, I could see the points you were making before this thread (on this post). Not anymore.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
They count ties as half-wins. Not losses. A tie is not a loss. In a tie the teams have the same score. In a loss, one team has a higher score.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 18, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And I can calculate winning % and losing % from the same data. That argument doesn’t hold water.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:55 AM EST up reply actions
MarioD...
Team goes 0-0-82. So they have a 50% winning pct?
By literal definition winning percentage is percentage of games won. You can’t have a team “half-win” and the other team “full-win.” That’ll make an error in every sports fan’s head. You can’t have more than one winner
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:52 AM EST up reply actions
They would have a 50% PTS %.
PTS % and Win % are not the same thing.
by EREX21 on Jan 19, 2010 8:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Precisely my point
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
50% winning percentage.
I know you guys suck at the history of the NHL because you’re huge bandwagon jumpers, but you can just look back at the history books and see that OTL losses were created in 1999.
In 1998, no points were awarded until the end of the game.
Starting in 1999, each team “EARNED A POINT” if the score was tied at the end of regulation.
The point is earned not by losing, but by being tied.
Sometimes, a team would earn a second point by scoring in those five minutes, other times they wouldn’t. But the point is never earned by losing. It is earned by being tied.
Hence, it is treated as half a win, just like in the NFL.
You can continue to be ignorant, Caps fans are good at that. But you’ll still be wrong.
If a team goes 0-0-82…they will have 82 points, which is essentially the same as going 41-41 is it not?
82 points is a 50% PTS %.
So if a team can go 0-0-82 or 41-41 and have the same exact result in points you would think that it would mean that PTS % and WIN % would have to be the same.
But you can not possibly convince me that a team that went 0-0-82 was a .500 team. Because they aren’t.
treated as half a win
!=
half a win
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Except, of course, I’ve already proven (via the NFL) that I’m correct.
And none of you have been able to demonstrate any evidence to the contrary.
First thing…
Statistics gives correlation, not proof. You can’t prove anything with statistics.
So I treat my cousin like my sister. Doesn’t mean she IS my sister.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
And may I point you to G.O.D’s post just below. Ties != OTL by definition, since no one wins a tie, someone loses in overtime.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Again, you’re wrong.
OTLs are in fact, points for ties.
The point is awarded when they are TIED AT THE END OF REGULATIOn.
Clearly I won't turn you
Even though it seems me and every other person who finds commenting on the topic worthwhile disagrees with you. To you your interpretation, to us ours. At the end of the season it’s still points% which determines who gets in and who doesn’t, regardless of whether or not pts%=winning%
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
You and everyone else… who can provide no basis whatsoever for your wrong opinion.
Points, once again, are a farcical statistic which merely derive from wins.
Winning percentage is what determines seeding, just like in every other sport on earth.
Except when we pointed out that both your link and the NHL said they rank by point%.
If point% and win% are the same thing then why are wins the first tiebreaker?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
If point% and win% are the same thing then why are wins the first tiebreaker?
Thats an utterly nonsensical question.
If the sky is blue, why don’t elephants live in the city?
No—-why do wins matter if it’s based on winning% anyway, is what F&B is saying.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Aaaand Mario brings out the condescending prick angle.
Which is funny because he’s 12, and we’ve all been watching hockey religiously since he was sucking his mama’s teet.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 19, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
MarioD, you’re making massive overgeneralizations. See how many members Japers’ Rink has. Maybe, I dunno, 400ish? Not all that much when you consider the DC metro area as a whole. But that doesn’t mean some of us weren’t watching back then. We were. We’re not bandwagon hockey newbies that you see at games quite frequently.
As an example, I myself am relatively new to hockey, but I started watching close to every Caps game on TV from 2002-2003.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 20, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the NFL is really going to disagree with you on that one.
Hilarious!!!
Hey, Mario, the NFL has ties. Which are neither wins nor losses.
The NHL has overtime losses. Which are (see if you can follow me on this one)… losses!
So the two leagues calculate winning percentage in different ways.
And the NHL has points, which the NFL does not. So the NHL calculates points percentage (which is a different thing from winning percentage). The NFL doesn’t do that because they have a different system.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His argument is that winning percentage = wins/losses
Thats not how the NFL calculates it. Thats the point.
Again, POINTS are just a fancy way of saying “winning percentage”.
If you can’t grasp that, go back to Japers’.
Hey Mario, you trying to explain F&B’s argument to me is priceless. Keep doing that.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
And we’re not talking about the fucking NFL. Stay with the fucking league that is relevant, for fucks’ sake.
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 18, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, they would have 5 wins, and 5 half wins. Which makes their winning percentage:
Half wins? Oh man, Mario, you just made my day!
The other day I went to the Sharks/Bruins game. The Bruins came away with a shootout win. Let me tell you something — the Sharks fans didn’t think they had a “half win.”
I guess those Sharks fans are way smarter than Mario — they can tell a “Shootout Loss” from a “Half Win.”
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Ben, Travis — any moderator. Quick — delete this entire thread before Gary Bettman sees it. He’s dumb enough to institute the “half win” for real!
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
The team with the most points is on top of the standings. That’s just reality. Do Caps fans realize the Devils have games in hand on us? Yeah. But right now we are in fact on top of the east. And I don’t even really give a shit considering how much hockey is left to be played. Your jealousy is hysterical.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
“The team with the most points is on top of the standings. That’s just reality”
Not really. Look at the final standings for last year. The Caps were the 3 seed but seeds 4-6 all had more points than the Caps.
No. Just no.
1. z-Boston 82 116
2. y-Washington 82 108
3. y-New Jersey 82 106
4. x-Pittsburgh 82 99
5. x-Philadelphia 82 99
6. x-Carolina 82 97
7. x-NY Rangers 82 95
8. x-Montreal 82 93
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
It’s certainly happened before, but not last year.
Such is life when the division winners get the top 3 seeds.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 18, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
I was just addressing the massive amount of fail in the post, I’m not saying it hasn’t happened.
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
Truth
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 18, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Correction, I was referring to the final 2007-2008 Standings
1 Z – MONTRÉAL CANADIENS 104
2 Y – PITTSBURGH PENGUINS 102
3 Y – WASHINGTON CAPITALS 94
4 X – NEW JERSEY DEVILS 99
5 X – NEW YORK RANGERS 97
6 X – PHILADELPHIA FLYERS 95
7 X – OTTAWA SENATORS 94
8 X – BOSTON BRUINS 94
Well then say that you are
I’m going to assume last year means last year not the year before that.
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
Say that I am what?
Like I said, I was correcting myself as I was referencing one year but referred to another by mistake. It happens. Try not to act holier than thou about it.
Talking about 07-08
For all I know you were talking about last year.
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
Which is why the first thing I said was….wait for it…Correction. Thus making it very clear, that I was correcting a previously incorrect post. Are you off it yet or can we move on?
My original post way prior to the correction.
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
Are you opposed to the current system?
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
Yes I am.
I don’t think that seeding should be based on whether you win your division or not, but rather should be a product of overall points. It is 10 times worse in the NFL where an 8-8 team can win their division and be a 3 seed and a team that goes 11-5 goes in as a 6th seed.
At least in the NBA it is possible for a team who finishes in 2nd place in their division to finish with a top 3 seed in the conference.
So you don’t think winning the division should get you in or that you should still get in?
Matt Bradley is my fµcking hero, I mean he was before, but now he’s like double or something.
I do think winning your division should get you in the playoffs, but where you are seeded should not be guaranteed to be a top 3 spot just because you won your division. I have no problem with a team that wins their division being the 6th seed if their points show that they should be.
Again I will use 2007-2008 asan example.
The Caps were the 3 seed because they won the division. Yet 4 teams from the Atlantic division had more points than the Capitals did. That tells me that despite the obvious competitiveness of that division those 4 teams were better than the Capitals and should have been seeded as such. The Capitals won a relatively weak division, and thats great but they should not be looked into a 3 seed because of that alone.
That is not a knock on the Capitals at all, they are just example I am using to make my point.
Winning a division should get you into the playoffs. That is it. Seeding should be passed on points.
Winning a division should get you into the playoffs. That is it. Seeding should be passed on points.
I agree with that. That would be a great change.
Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
So what happens if a team wins a division but finishes with less points than 8th?
I know its unlikely but at least this way is less convoluted for the sake of div winners
I thought about that, and like you said, it is highly unlikely but if on off chance that did happen then as much as it sucks for that 8th place team there is no real way around it. Other than to scrap divisions all together and you have two conferences of 16 teams and a battle royal for the 8 spots. But that would never happen. Divisions are helpful for scheduling purposes if nothing else.
Right, you’d have a problem with unbalanced schedules if you scrapped the divisions. It’s just something you have to live with, like AZ and SD making the NFL playoffs with mediocre records while the 11-5 Pats missed the playoffs last season.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Your team played like crap to start the season and you are only one point out of a playoff birth. You should be somewhat happy about that.
A man gotta have a code
Sorry I wasn’t semantic enough. After a quick start at the VERY beginning of the season your team underperformed before seeming to hit stride in mid December.
A man gotta have a code
They were 12-5-1 on November 18th. Thats more than “the VERY beginning of the season”. Its actually 22% of the way through the season.
OK, I give in on that point. However, 3 weeks later Stevens gets canned due to the team failing to meet management’s expectations. Based on your roster and your team should have been in the top 3-4 teams in the East all season. Heck I even figured they’d be right up there with the Caps and Pens all year.
A man gotta have a code
I doubt more than a handful of other people agreed with you. Well, I doubt anyone else at all.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
I still think they make it, but props to you for the guts to call that.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
They shouldn’t, because they have no cap room.
These other teams should make deadline deal improvements, and the Flyers have to stand pat.
They’ve been better under Lavi, no? Leighton has played well recently. They’ve got movable assets in a guy like Carter or Gagne who’d be very attractive to teams struggling to score (BUF I’m thinking, but such a blockbuster would probably be inter-conference I think since the teams may meet each other in the postseason).
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
After Lavi’s first 10 games (2-7-1 or something) they’re 8-4-0 going by your numbers. That sounds better to me.
(I meant under Lavi recently, they’d been better)
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
You want to talk about the game? You can’t be serious! Just kidding.
I thought Philly’s defense and goaltending were the keys to the Caps win. Emery looked ok, but was a bit rusty. He seemed to be creeping backwards into his cage all night. Philly defense was, at times, letting Caps gain the blueline and set up too easily. The key with the Caps is to not let them carry the puck in. You gotta force our skill guys to dump it in. I’m just happy Caps penalties didn’t cost them even more. Flyers PP is deadly when your guys are skating.
A man gotta have a code
Yep. Caps have trouble against the trap because they can’t carry the puck into the zone.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
Yawn, all this fanbase stuff reeks of a redux of Eagles-Cowboys fighting last week. It’s tired. But then again, there’s nothing really at all positive to talk about today with the Flyers.
exactly, what else is there to bitch about that we haven’t already discussed ad naseum for the last 2 months.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve got nothing against Flyers fanbase. I always use you folks as example of a strong, knowledgeable fanbase. As a matter of fact that is why I drop by here on occasion. As with every fanbase there are always a few I could do without including my own.
A man gotta have a code
And we don’t have anything against the Caps fan base, we just feel we are superior to you.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
And we don’t have anything against the Caps fan base, we justfeelknow we are superior to you and have no interest in taking our blinders off and engaging in discussion with Caps fans so that our pre-determined stereotypes might somehow be challenged.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There’s been plenty of discussion on this page from Caps fans that has clearly gone to reinforce the fact that you guys don’t know much.
Like your continued failure to understand what a winning percentage is. Or your argument that every team loses fans when its losing.
Come to think of it, you might be what we’re basing our “stereotypes” on. Maybe if you weren’t here being wrong all the time, we’d think more highly of the Caps fan base.
Lets try it out!
You’re the master debater. Talk Geoff or Travis or anyone that actually matters here into banning me. But seeing as how the regulars around here smile and love it when someone will call you on your bullshit, I think I’ll keep coming by.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
by Rob Parker on Jan 18, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And you’ll just keep reinforcing the ignorance of the Capitals fanbase.
Quite the Catch-22 you’re in.
Can I just say something?
Like your continued failure to understand what a winning percentage is
Quite frankly, I don’t think anyone cares. Points are points for the time being.
Or your argument that every team loses fans when its losing.
He admitted there are exceptions.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
You know what else we forgot guys?
Im not particularly patriotic and would be quite pleased in the whole national anthem thing was scrapped before sporting events.
Still. if its going to be played, its really tacky to have organized cheers DURING the national anthem. The entire arena yelling out on the word “red” really is just a sign of disrespect.
by MarioD on Jan 18, 2010 5:07 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Like I said, I think the playing is silly.
But if you’re going to do it, the point is to be respectful of a country and a military and whatever… not to turn it into a pep rally.
(International competition being slightly different, though it should still be respectful.)
really, they do that?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
To give some context, the “RED” shout is a carryover from Baltimore Orioles games. The Orioles team nickname is, as you probably know, the O’s. It is tradition to should “OH” at the last “Oh, say can you see” at Orioles games. A sign of support for the team, if you will. Because DC had no baseball team, a whole generation of DC fans grew up going to Orioles games.
I was one of them. In fact, I had no idea until I went to college that there were places that didn’t shout at all during the anthem.
It became a habit to shout “OH” at all sporting events throughout the DC Metro Area. Caps fans objected to showing a sign of support for a Baltimore team, and started their own yelling.
It’s stupid, and I could live without it. But that’s where it came from.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
So you’re saying the “O” isn’t for Ovechkin?
Im not sure if that makes it better or worse… but certainly different.
Instead of being a pep rally its like a petty intercity thing amongst the same fanbase. Just… I don’t even know.
The “O” is decades old and is most certainly for “Orioles” not “Ovechkin.” Guess they are a little more clever than you give them credit for.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
So this is like when the Bruins fans all sung “Sweet Carolina” with 7 minutes left in the Winter Classic game, as a nod to some tradition at Fenway Park?
Quite odd to say the least, but ok.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I’m obviously not a baseball fan. haha.
I just find some traditions rather odd/amusing. I mean, “Sweet Caroline” is a sung I expect to hear at a piano bar with a bunch of pretentious yuppy’s singing it drunk off their ass, not at a sporting event.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Except it’s largely the same people that frequent both.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
The best part is that it was written by Neil Diamond, a noted Yankees fan.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
doesn’t make it any less stupid, just saying.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 18, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Only thing you’ve said today that I agree with.
Game-Over Green? Canada-Over Carlson!
by Scott in Shaw on Jan 18, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Are the Caps the best team in the East?
Or is it just propoganda.
Buffalo is on pace fo 114 points.
NJD are on pace for 113.4
Caps are on pace for 112.8.
One of those teams is going to end up at around 112-115 points and win the conference. Who’s it going to be? I don’t know, but I think you can make a fine argument that the Sabres and the Devils will tail off before the Caps do.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
You seem to have clicked on the wrong site. Here you go.
Yes. Be more close minded. We do not want outside input. Must wallow in our own cesspool of group think. Please mommy, protect me. Outside ideas are scary.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
And you, too, seem to be confused about what site you’re on. Here you go.
So is that how we should treat Geoff, Ben, and Travis when they come by to talk with us?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
We’re not, actually.
I usually do, but I’m not forced to do anything except write X number of articles a week on this site and have open threads for each game. The writers on the hockey network are all pretty close knit though and we all do pretty solid work, so we do a lot of inter-mingling.
I also do work on the SBN.com hockey page, but that’s neither here nor there.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Going on other blogs makes us smarter and more knowledgeable
Try it out
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
Was just responding to your assertion that the Caps-as-best-team-in-East concept is “propoganda”.
I hate commenting when the thread is squished all the way to the right, so I thought I’d start a new series of comments.
You’re the one who brought “points percentage” – which is what you’re trying to say when you note “win percentage” – into the equation. I’m just taking the analysis one step further.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
I don’t want to spark anything more than has already been sparked, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the past decade it’s to never ever question the Devils. They always seem to lose key players and replace them with ones that seem sub-par in comparison, and yet, they always fit in perfectly.
Yeah. That’s one of the reasons I hate and fear them so much. Lou always manages to find a way. I’m waiting for the day they fall, but they never do. Hopefully with a thin prospect pool and Marty’s days being numbered the end is near, but he’ll probably pull another rabbit out of his hat.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I thought this was finally going to be the year they’d fall. Lou is a witch doctor. They gotta come back to earth sometime. Hopefully Lou will start picking more great human beings like Cormier, because then the end will come sooner.
A man gotta have a code
Although they have tailed off a little recently.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
The Devils, to me, are doing what the Bruins did last year, i.e., outperforming their true talent level by a large margin. The B’s mananged to keep the wheels from coming off the bus for the entire regular season; I am skeptical that the Devils can continue to do it. They might, but I’m hopeful that they won’t.
I am not believing in Buffalo, either.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
This is basically the same Devils team that won their division last year, and now with a healthy Brodeur. I’m not sure how much they are over-performing. I’m waiting for age to hit but it hasn’t yet.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
How many times have the Devils “outperformed their true level of talent” in the past few years, though? It’s insane.
I think Buffalo, for what it’s worth, has a very good nucleus. They were riddled by injuries last year (including one to Miller down the stretch). Healthy forwards, a healthy elite goalie in Miller, and a D-corps that now includes Tyler Myers? Sure, they could wear down post-Olympic break, but I doubt it’ll happen.
I’m not sold on BUF’s goal scoring. Even if they stay healthy, which is a stretch for lots of those guys, I think they’ll have a hard time keeping up this pace.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
The Caps score what, 1.5 goals/gm more than BUF? Wow
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
Good point re. NJD. They commit to the system and they’re obviously very well coached and managed.
They could well win the East. I hate watching them so I hope not.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Hey, at least they are easier to watch now than in their Cup years. They open it up a bit now. Parise is great to watch. They lack scoring depth, but it never seems to hurt them.
A man gotta have a code
They had to open up a little with the rule changes because of the two-line pass, and last year they were pretty aggressive. But this year they are back to boring hockey. They’ll keep 4 men in the neutral zone as long as they can and suck the speed out of the game.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
From what I’ve observed they actually do it more against teams like the Caps. Them seem to open it up a bit more against teams that dump and chase.
A man gotta have a code
TOO MUCH ALIGNED RIGHT TEXT TO READ. MUST WEAR MY ALIGN LEFT GOGGLES
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jan 18, 2010 5:32 PM EST reply actions
Wow, this has been going on for two hours straight?
Caps fans and Flyers fans are decidedly different breeds. You’re not gonna agree on who’s better.
Let’s just agree that we all suck, and move on with our lives, k?
The Daily Forehand -- SB Nation's Tennis Destination.
Broad Street Hockey.
haven’t seen a fight this bad since that scuffle between the Hawks and the Ducks in ’93
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jan 18, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
QUACK QUACK QUACK
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
Ducks fly together?
Now drink with me deeply of the bourbon, scotch, and rye until such time as we are fighting drunk.
by Steckel Me Elmo on Jan 18, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
The Ducks fans, btw, were all total bandwagoners. You know they didn’t own those green and yellow pom poms four years ago.
The Daily Forehand -- SB Nation's Tennis Destination.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jan 18, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
total bandwagoners..but sweet pom poms and varsity jackets
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jan 18, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here today? Is this a hostile takeover?
Yikes. Can’t we just go back to complaining about how shitty the Flyers are instead of fighting over who has the bigger wang? (b/c clearly, I will lose that argument, since I’m a girl and all)
Find out who drives the Hummer and wears sleeveless t-shirts and you’ve found the guy with the small one…
I’m really tempted to lock this whole thread right here and now but there is some smart discussion going on here and there.
Keep the discourse civil from here on out, regardless of loyalties and opinions, please. We’re all grown ups, I think.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly not as flawed as it is. The definition is right there in the words: “win” “percentage.” Not “win and some half credit for losses” “percentage.” You’re just stuck on step 1.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 18, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Ok, so before this all got derailed, what I originally wanted to know was whether OKT is in the Flyers’ long term plans, because he’s terrible, and whether the result was because the Flyers didn’t bring it, or the Caps are that good. The Flyers started hot, and outshot the Caps, but I thought the majority of the game the Caps looked in control. They didn’t have a ton of chances but they made them count, had some prolonged cycles, and mostly kept the Flyers shots to the outside. I thought Emery was not great with his rebound control, but you had to expect some rust after the lay off.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Not great is putting it extremely kindly. First four goals were all Emery rebounds, and if rebounds were allowed on penalty shots I’m guessing Ovechkin would have made the fifth goal a second effort as well just to rub it in.
The Daily Forehand -- SB Nation's Tennis Destination.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jan 18, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Emery looked rusty. But that’s not unreasonable given his layoff.
I don’t think you can fault him for the third and fourth goals – he had very little chance on those. The first two should have been stopped.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Yeah, you’re right. 4 wasn’t a rebound, that was the Laich breakaway. So 3 rebound goals and 2 breakaway backhand moves.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
I think it was a rebound on the breakaway? The initial shot was near side, but the goal went in far side. That’s how it looked from the 400s anyhow.
The Daily Forehand -- SB Nation's Tennis Destination.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jan 18, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Damn, we really saw something different. I haven’t seen highlights yet because I had to go outside after the game so I didn’t catch NHL OTF but I’ll look. I thought Laich just deked backhand and went high glove.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
He came in on the left side, deked to the center, and went backhand high glove.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he went forehand-to-backhand and shot – can’t remember if it went over the glove or between the arm and the body. Hard to fault the goalie on breakaways – they can be stopped, but they’re ten-bellers when they are.
I also am not sure if Emery touched the Semin goal – watching on the tube, I thought that Laich deflected it over to the left side of the net, where Semin was lurking. Even if it was a rebound, it was a rebound from a deflection about 10 inches in front of him…at that point it’s just going where it’s going, and you have to hope.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Yeah I think Lavs said something about one of the Caps goals deflecting to a man off a skate, I thought that’s the one he meant.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
3rd goal wasn’t a rebound either. Laich deflected it over to Semin before it even got to Emery.
Of all our iniquities ignorance may be the worst
by Killer_Carlson on Jan 18, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
OKT is in the Flyers’ long term plans
No. God no. He’s only playing right now because Syvret is still hurt.
This is, of course until he himself gets hurt, again.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
So is he an AHL call up? How old is he?
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
25. He was in the plans before the season, I think, but he’s been injured. I’ve posted a list several times of the injuries he’s suffered throughout his career and it’s pretty remarkable just how many times the guy’s been hurt.
He was a healthy scratch for a while, too, because Bartulis was playing well and Parent was still in the fold. He’s behind Bartulis, Parent and Syvret on the depth chart though.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Dude must be made of glass.
And I was making fun of Gaborik, laughing at when he was gonna get hurt and miss most of the season. So far, he’s only missed 2.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
I might as well re-post the list. Doesn’t include this season…
* December 2006, broken nose, missed 1 game
* Early February 2007, broken ribs, missed 1 game
* Late February 2007, elbow injury, missed 2 games
* April 2007, hip injury, missed final 3 games of season
* November 2007, hand injury, missed 4 games
* December 2007, neck injury, missed 11 games
* February 2008, concussion, missed 3 games
* March 2008, upper body injury, missed final 7 games of season
* December 2008, head injury, missed 16 games
* February 2008, knee injury, missed final 27 games including 4 playoff games
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
OKT isn’t in the long-term plans. As either Ben or Geoff said on our radio show the other night, he’s the Riley Cote of the defense at this point. Basically eighth on the depth chart.
This is all from memory and I was watching the game on a really small TV, but I thought that most of the Caps goals were just really opportunistic. The Flyers controlled the puck most of the game, especially in the third period, but they couldn’t capitalize (no pun intended) at all.
There was the weak penalty call on Carter that the Caps turned into a goal on the following faceoff, but then later the Flyers had a PP on a weak call and couldn’t score. Knuble scored a Knuble goal, the others were defensive miscues that the Flyers shouldn’t commit. Carle’s bad pass, Pronger pinching unsuccessfully, etc.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
I haven’t seen a replay of the Carter PIM, but it looked legit from where I was sitting. Even when PHI controlled the puck I didn’t really think they were doing a good job getting to the prime scoring areas in the middle of the ice, and when they crashed the net it was always just a moment too late. Theo saw the shots and wasn’t leaving a lot of rebounds there for the net-crashers so it just led to scrums in front of the net all game.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
Well, let me clarify.
It was certainly a penalty, but up until that point the officials were letting everything go. In the context of the game in that sense, I didn’t feel it should’ve been called.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Caps got away with a couple egregious ones that I remember – Bradley leveled OKT about 20 feet from the puck, and Shaone Morrisonn tripped Carter (?) on the cycle.
The Flyers had a few that were equally eyebrow-raising, though.
At the end of the day, the Caps had 1 PP and the Flyers had 5…so I figured the Carter PIM was more or less window-dressing to help even things out a little bit.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
Yeah, that hit on OKT was right before the Carter penalty IIRC.
That might’ve helped contribute to my feelings that it was kind of a joke to call it.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
But not to make a big deal about that call, because my point was that the Caps capitalized on the opportunity while the Flyers didn’t.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
And that’s pretty much the story of the game. The Caps didn’t have a ton of great chances, but made them pay. Theo came up with a couple big saves, Flyers hit a pipe or two and missed some nets. But even without the end to end offense I thought it was an entertaining game to watch. Both teams skated and hit.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
early in the game, the flyers were pinning the caps in their own zone, but he caps responded quickly to each goal the Flyers scored. Thought it was an evenly played game until the caps took the lead.
Because now I can justify browsing and commenting during the work day with the argument that I am promoting my business.
by Sombrero Guy on Jan 18, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds about right.
Once the Caps took the lead, they took command. That’s what good teams do.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Oh god, what didn’t I say at some point on the radio show?
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Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jan 18, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Hockey Gods
“This is all from memory and I was watching the game on a really small TV, but I thought that most of the Caps goals were just really opportunistic. The Flyers controlled the puck most of the game, especially in the third period, but they couldn’t capitalize (no pun intended) at all”
Yeah the Hockey Gods were against us or maybe we need another sniper type as the NHL seems to favor this scoring orgy hockey.
Yes, and the Leafs win. Let’s head over to PPP.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
Well, FWIW my thoughts on the game yesterday
I thought Philly got markedly unlucky in couple of key spots – hitting the post, having Poti save a goal stand out here. With a bit better luck, it’s a much closer game down the stretch.
I also thought the Caps played a prevent defense in the third, and just looked to counterattack and take advantage of pinching/pressing D-men. It worked, on Laich’s second goal and AO’s breakaway. They had a couple other chances that didn’t quite materialize.
In general, I thought the Flyers played hard, and executed the system – that is a marked departure from where they were under Stevens and the first few games under Lavi. I posted on here a couple times that the Flyers would make the playoffs, and I still think they will.
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
I think so too. And I hope they charge hard enough to get into the 4/5 matchup again.
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
How sweet would that be? If Philly could eliminate Pitt that would make my year…
"You're gonna eat that g**d**n Koho, three!"
And then match up with NJD in the second round…
Now let's say you and I go toe to toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor.
You’re saying the Rangers or the Islanders or the Habs won’t beat the Devils?!
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 18, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Same here. I thought all along they’d be fighting for top of EC, not the 8th spot. Plenty of time left for them to get hot and start taking down teams in front of them. Isles, Sens, and Rags are all not as good on paper as the Flyers. As for another Pens vs Flyers matchup I’m all for it. I love watching them kick the crap out of each other.
A man gotta have a code
Except that lately we don’t kick the crap out of each other. The Pens kick the crap out of us and it’s very one-sided, but it was the other way around for years.
Add me to the list who thought with a little better luck, the Flyers would have been right there with the Caps the whole game.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 18, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
…If there’s one thing Flyers fans and Caps fans can agree on, it’s that Eddie Jordan sucks (17-point halftime lead, and possession with four seconds left in a tie game = overtime loss to the second worst team in the league).
OMG, I detest that man. Almost as much as I detest the shootout. Almost.
Thank God we have good college basketball in this town, so that I can turn that on when I want to see real basketball. Who am I kidding? I prefer the college game all around to what the NBA puts on any day of the week.
Wow.
Remind me never to go into the studio the day after the Flyers play the Capitals. Who needs television when you have Fehr and Mario going back and forth like this? What are there, like 10 comments on the actual game?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Yes, it was highly entertaining. Far more exciting than the hockey game. Hopefully, we have a better effort tonight vs. C-Bus.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 19, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
A few thoughts on the game (most of which have already been mentioned, I’m just throwing my two cents out there in an effort to distract from the flame war):
The Carter penalty was pretty painful. Not the end all be all, I just hate that in a contact sport, if you use one hand to reach your stick around a guy and perfectly knock the puck off his stick, and use your other hand to push him away, you get the same two minutes as somebody who throws an elbow or high sticks. It was especially ironic because on the Philly broadcast, they had just shown a replay of the late hit on OKT, and JJ was saying that he felt it was a penalty, but that the refs were being consistent in “letting both sides play.” Literally as that phrase left his mouth they called Carter. I thought it was pretty funny.
Speaking of OKT, do the Caps have some reason to hate the guy, because I would say that on about half of his shifts, someone was taking a totally unnecessary run at him. At OKT! I mean, I was expecting a run or two to be taken at Carcillo after the Bradley incident…but certainly not OKT. On two seperate occasionas Hartnell had to come over and retaliate on his behalf (well…he didn’t have to…but he did anyway)
I think the Flyers have actually managed to find a goalie who’s as weak on the breakaway as Biron was. Yes both Laich’s and Ovechkin’s moves were pretty, but good lord did Emery get caught stationary on both. I mean, on Ovie’s penalty shot, I understand there’s a lot of apprehension trying to figure out a player of that caliber who can do literally whatever he wants with the puck- but for crying out loud, cover some part of the net! Also his glove looked pretty subpar, but what do you expect giving his first start (after taking only one start and facing only 16 shots in the AHL, I believe) against probably the league’s best offense.
All of that, and the unlucky plays (Richards’ post, Poti’s save) aside, I really feel like the game turned on Hartnell. I mean, what kind of little league knee-jerk crap is that? There was noone near him- just take a second, readjust, and use your damned stick to put the puck in the net. Geez. I mean, if the game’s 3-3 at that point, and we’re no longer on the power play- and maybe Carle isn’t even out on the ice to give Laich a free breakaway- the game has a totally different complexion, and who knows how we would have responded in the third.
I think the Flyers have actually managed to find a goalie who’s as weak on the breakaway as Biron was.
We discussed this back around the summer.
http://nhlshootouts.com/CareerGoaliesHighestSavePct.htm
All-time, minimum of 30 attempts against, there are 61 goalies who qualify.
Biron is 59th. Emery is 48th.
Having a quick look over those numbers is quite interesting.
A lot of the “elite” goaltenders; Lundquist, Luongo, Brodeur, Miller, Nabokov have faced a lot more shots in the shootout than a lot of the other good and average goalies. And in most cases have a good save percentage.
There are a lot of possible causes for this, I just can’t seem to be able to write them coherently
And all the top guns it seems (save Pavel Datsyuk and Zach Parise IIRC) can’t score in shootout situations.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
yes i remember reading that discussion now that you mention it. and i remember how horrible against breakaways emery looked at the beginning of the season. i had hoped to see some improvement by now. it may be harsh to lump too much criticism on him since it was his first game back and all, but it’s still disappointing.
Another reason to hate shootouts.
If there hadn’t been any we would have had the 4th seed the last two years of playoffs
I don’t think the shootout is bad in itself, but a team shouldn’t “win” the game if they have three players and a goalie who do better in penalty-shot situations than the other team’s players. A win should be a winning effort by 19 or even 20 players, not just four. I favor 3-win or OT win, 2-SO win, 1-SO loss, 0-loss or OT loss.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 19, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I like that scheme. But you do realize it won’t happen any time soon, right? At least not until the NHL either convinces themselves the general public can/will understand that system, or realizes that shouldn’t matter.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 19, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, unfortunately. Anyways, can’t say I hate the system now. Could be better, but I’m sure if they implement the system I outlined above, it would have flaws of its own.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 20, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
AHL all star game, wooo! Matsumoto! … That’s it! Because all their talent has been playing for the Flyers all season and/or hurt!
I guess Baumgartner! (if you can even remember the ten minutes he spent in philadelphia)
Should be fun to watch the first period before the Flyers start.
At least Matsumoto won the accuracy round of the skills competition.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 19, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Hilarious that this thread is still going.
Hilarious that Mario is still trying to convince us that some losses are half-wins. Mario, you win the Masterton. (Google it — it’s a trophy)
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Jan 20, 2010 12:01 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hilarious that you still have such a sad little life that you need to go visit other message boards.
You should try it sometime. Most fans are nice, ask questions, answer your own, etc. It’s very informative. I don’t think you can attack Washington fans until you actually hang out with us, which quite frankly at this point, you shouldn’t do with the attitude you’ve shown here.
Ovechkin = Green Backs
by red army line on Jan 20, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t want to. If I wanted to follow other teams, I would.
It sucks everytime you come over here. Look back at this thread at how many posts were Flyers’ fans explaining very basic facts to you guys (like who OKT is. Nevermind the fact that he’s been in the NHL for the last four seasons and played 158 games and people are asking if he’s an AHL callup. ). The whole reason I read a website devoted to a team is to talk to other people who follow that team and are being basic facts.
If you want to learn about the Flyers, read about the Flyers. But its a pain in the ass having conversation drug down by people who don’t follow the team asking basic questions.
And thats why I say you should stick to posting on your own board.
For another example, here’s a long discussion because a Caps fan came over and was talking about the Eagles in the 80s, and was incredible wrong about the facts there.
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/1/18/1257272/recapping-the-loss-versus#29072321
Alright, I think that’s finally enough.
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