New York Media Distorts Carcillo Comments, Misleads Ranger Fanbase
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 10:00 AM EST
in Philadelphia Flyers Commentary
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PrintWhen there's a controversial event in the midst of a hockey game, it's common for teams, fans and media to back in to their home quarters and analyze the event through a parochial lens. If Claude Giroux scores a highlight reel goal by turning two opponents inside out with slick moves on his way to the net, we will no doubt applaud his efforts. Those who follow the other team, however, will castigate the two defenseman for being embarrassed on the play.
Different groups look at the same event and see different things based on their loyalties. It happens every second of every day with literally every event that's ever happened in human history. It's called inherent bias, and there's nothing really wrong with it at all.
But completely distorting the truth and changing a person's statements to justify your inherent bias? Well, there's certainly something wrong with that, and it's exactly what the New York Rangers public relations staff and the New York media did throughout the evening last night in Philadelphia.
In the second period of Thursday's game, Dan Carcillo and Marian Gaborik got in a fight. The Rangers official Twitter feed said that Carcillo 'jumped' Gaborik, despite irrefutable visual evidence to the contrary. In fact, the image shows that Gaborik was the one who initially antagonized Carcillo, and the video shows him dropping the gloves first as well. All neutral media outlets also say that's the case.
From NHL.com...
Replays showed Gaborik to be the aggressor in the scuffle, but Carcillo had no problem engaging.
... and the Associated Press...
Carcillo floored Gaborik with a hard uppercut early in the second period after Gaborik, a two-time All-Star, surprisingly dropped his gloves first.
So there you have it. That's an official team staff member committing a bold-face lie, distributed immediately to thousands of people. Surely it was believed by the majority of those people as well, especially those receiving updates while not watching the game. But in most cases, a television couldn't even save you from the lies.
Most people watching this game were subject to the New York broadcast on MSG Network, thanks to its distribution on NHL Center Ice and NHL Gamecenter Live. The remarks by MSG's on-air talent, Sam Rosen and Joe Micheletti, were just as misleading. While Carcillo was busy knocking Gaborik to the ice, the duo was just absolutely floored that he would -- you know -- stand up for himself when an opponent drops the gloves.
Let's go to the transcript.
MICHELETTI: Now we've got a fight down the other end. Carcillo...
ROSEN: Woah!
BOTH (in unison): And Gaborik!
ROSEN: What is that all about?!
MICHELETTI: Well, things are going to get nasty now.
ROSEN: Wow, that is...
MICHELETTI: Things are going to get nasty now. Things are going to get nasty now. I mean, we see Gaborik always fight back. He doesn't take a lot of (??) from anybody. But for Carcillo to go after Gaborik. I mean, Gaborik doesn't fight anybody. And Gaborik's right in the middle, and there's some pushing and shoving, and then Carcillo goes right after Gaborik. He goes right after him. Gaborik pushes back and then Carcillo, there's some pushing and shoving and Carcillo just drops his gloves...
ROSEN: Aw, that's just...
MICHELETTI: I mean, come on. I mean, come on.
Again, it bears repeating. Neutral sources -- all of them! -- say that Gaborik dropped his gloves first. There's visual evidence of it as well, yet the NY media is caught in a lie yet again. This time, however; instead of distributing the lie to thousands of Twitter followers, potentially millions of television viewers were deceived.
What's this all lead to? A national audience that's skewed toward a false perspective that vilifies Dan Carcillo and the Philadelphia Flyers, leading to comments like this from sites like Kukla's Korner...
I guess Carcillo doesn’t care who he fights.
It's a simple comment, but one that certainly contributes to the negative reputation Carcillo has around the hockey world. But, it gets a lot worse than just that. After the game, members of the New York media continued to spread lies while distorting Carcillo's comments about the fight.
Let's take a peek at transcription of the post-game interviews in chronological order.
First, we have Carcillo meeting with the media in the Flyers locker room.
CARCILLO: It was a good game, a hard-hitting game. I didn't really expect to fight who I fought, but it kinda worked out.
JOHN BORUK: Were you surprised that he actually dropped the gloves or the fact that none of his teammates came to his defense?
CARCILLO: Yeah, I mean. I don't really know who's on that line that would be able to help him. Yeah, it was weird, I wasn't expecting him to drop his gloves, and when he did, um, I was pretty much licking my chops. *smile*
That's Carcillo, saying that he was licking his chops when Marian Gaborik dropped the gloves, and his excitement could be for any number of reasons. He could be excited to remove the other teams' star player from the game for five crucial minutes. He could be excited to get the fans into what had been an otherwise tame game. Or, he could be excited to pound Gaborik into the ground.
The reality is probably a mix of them all, but every one of these possible scenarios start with Marian Gaborik engaging Dan Carcillo before dropping his gloves first and challenging him to a fight. Not once does Carcillo say that his fight with Gaborik was pre-meditated in any way, and in fact, he says the exact opposite of that.
So why did two members of the New York media frame it that way when informing John Tortorella of Carcillo's comments?
The transcript...
REPORTER A: John, how much did it bother you, Carcillo going after Marian Gaborik?
TORTORELLA: There's no honor. Listen, I don't play the game, I don't wear the uniform, I don't want to say too much about it. But there's no honor in it. It's embarassing.
REPORTER B: Carcillo said he was licking his chops to get after Gaborik.
TORTORELLA: Wonderful. He's a brave guy, ah? He's a brave guy.
[...]
TORTORELLA: You know, I hear this comment that he's looking to get after Gaborik, that's just, that's just wonderful.
Carcillo "going after" Gaborik. Carcillo licking his chops to "get after" Gaborik, implying that Carcillo was itching to fight Gaborik from the get-go. Those are both ways of framing questions to the Ranger coach in an irresponsible fashion. These people are journalists and their job is to get the story right. They aren't in the business of provoking the coach into making statements based on false knowledge, but that's exactly what they did tonight.
Peter Laviolette responded to what Tortorella said there, and he even corrected a reporter who framed a question by saying Carcillo "went after" Gaborik.
SAM CARCHIDI: Peter, Torts was just complaining about Carcillo going after Gaborik --
LAVIOLETTE: *interrupting* That's not the way I saw it.
CARCHIDI: How'd you see it?
LAVIOLETTE: I saw a scrum in front of our net, we're outnumbered. Danny came in and and picked someone off the pile. And Gaborik dropped his gloves first. So Danny can either get punched or he can drop his gloves as well, and I think the refs saw it that way as well because they both got five minutes for fighting.
Danny Carcillo doesn't make a habit of going after the other teams top players and skilled players. He does a lot of dirty work that other guys don't wanna do, and usually it's with guys like an Avery or a Voros, who are pretty tough on the other end. I didn't see it the way he did.
Laviolette's statement is in line with the facts. These are impossible for any rational human being to refute.
Yet inevitably, writers on the Rangers beat have all published stories that say Carcillo "went after" Gaborik, turning the Flyer into the bad guy while Gaborik is the victim. It truly is laughable.
Larry Brooks at the NY Post ...
... last night when Flyers' thug Daniel Carcillo dropped his gloves to throw punches at the Rangers' elegant pacifist, Marian Gaborik, at 5:43 of the second period of the Flyers' 2-0 victory.
The premise, that Carcillo dropped his gloves while Gaborik did no wrong, is just a flat out lie. To Brooks' credit, he did make the focus of his article the 'lack of honor' the Rangers on-ice bystanders exhibited in not going after Carcillo for fighting Gaborik, and that's hard to disgagree with. That likely had something to do with a few personal issues he needs to work out with Tortorella.
The others weren't even close to honest, unfortunately.
... Andrew Gross at The Bergen Record...
Dan Carcillo claimed to be waiting for his chance to get at Marian Gaborik.
Lie.
... Michael Obernauer at the New York Daily News ...
Informed that Carcillo had said in the Flyers' dressing room that he had been "licking his chops" to get a piece of Gaborik...
Lie.
An entire fan base will believe this drivel, furthering the stereotype that the Flyers are a bunch of talentless goons and that their home town team can do no wrong. We often wonder why fans around the sport think Philadelphia is a classless bastion of hockey hell, but if you were reading this stuff, wouldn't you as well?
All because of a few pathetic words penned by a deceitful press.
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Micheletti and Rosen are terrible at calling on ice events.
Watching the Habs-Rangers game last week Gaborik threw a cross crease pass to Callahan who tapped it into an empty net.
Rosen: “Gaborik scores from an unlikely angle!”
Micheletti: “That might have hit Callahan!”
Later in that same period Callahan had a short handed breakaway that was stopped by Halak but the rebound popped straight up in the air and Dubinsky tapped it into the net on its way down.
Rosen: “That may have hit Dubinsky on the way by!”
They have no idea.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Growing up in NY and watching the Rangers with my dad, Rosen used to be very good, particularly when he had John Davidson in the booth with him. I think he is getting up there a bit in years and he seems much more stretched out then in the past…
Philly Sports and Coyotes Hockey - and yes, I am tired of defending my teams...
by Jordan Ellel on Jan 22, 2010 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
this is so comical. gabby clearly dropped the gloves first. what is carcillo to do?… carcillo may have been antagonizing him, but all players do that, its part of the game. but if you drop your gloves, that means you want to fight. and its ridiculous for carcillo to be targeted for accepting a challenge to a fight.
Those NY commentators to their credit are pretty fair in calling games. Not as smug or bias as say – Pens commentators… Think perhaps it was a “fight or flight” reaction – because the Flyers have had the Rangers number last two games and perhaps micheletti never saw Gaborik drop his gloves first… maybe what he meant by nasty was: Flyers are rubbing this in our face. Rangers should be thankful for what Carcillo did, he stirred their emotions, woke them up… Rangers looked absolutely dead before that.
I’ve always wondered how good a view you can have from a press box anyway. Not to defend them, but they aren’t exactly right on top of the play.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 22, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Amen Travis.
I was on the Rags blog earlier and I simply had to leave do to my blood pressure going up from reading all their lies.
I guess that will be the motto for all the teams the Flyers play this year. If the other team loses they will simply lie their way out the fact that they were out played. Pathetic.
Great work Travis
A great piece and well written
Its scary how the basic events are nowadays being reported.
Even a fight in a hockey game is distorted to align with the prescribed views of their cliental in the same manner as politics are.
So much for reporting!
All young professionals in journalism are going to have some tough character choices to make in this new slippery slope of personalized news.
In the meantime I thank you and everyone one else here on BSB for their hard work!
by Prometheus74 on Jan 22, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Brasher
So, the next time the Flyers play the Rangers in mid March, I think it is obvious that Donald Brasher will be dressed. You guys think the Flyers will counter with Cote, or do you think that DC 13 will take on Donald like he is “supposed” to. IMO they will not dress Cote unless someone is hurt. Also, I don’t think Carcillo is required to fight Donald here. Any “goon” who is goaded on by a star to the point where the star drops the gloves, gets his free shots, as long as he answers for it later. He fought Avery with the bloody knuckles later on, and that is answering. Now, if Donald is dressed, and does try to stir up the pot, my respect for DC will go up tremendously if he accepts the challenge. I also can’t wait to see this rematch, because don’t think the Flyers will forget about a**h*** Sean Avery face-washing Richie with seven seconds left. If i had to bet for next game’s fight log: Avery v Carcillo. Asham v Voros. Avery v Hartnell. And the main event, Richie v his arch rival… gay Brandon Dubinsky. Throw in Lappy and someone and we have ourselves a party!
Go FlyGuys!
by orangeandblack20 on Jan 22, 2010 11:09 AM EST reply actions
They are just jealous that Carcillo does the job that Avery is supposed to do and does it better at this stage in his career—and can also kick a guy’s ass if need be.
I’m just glad that now Danny can play a little hockey like Avery. The worst thing in the world is when Avery could do his agitator thing, then score a goal. With 11 points half way through with 5 goals, DC is showing that he can play some hockey. And we all love him for it.
GETTTEM DANNNNY!
by orangeandblack20 on Jan 22, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Gaborik comments..
How does not one reporter ask Gaborik his opinion on what happend that is totally irresponsible journalism. When Jason Blake got punched by Downie he had a camera in his face. Gaborik does have one other fight in is career against Lappy by the way. Carcillo is maybe a goon grinding player but he is not your typical goon is size, he isn’t Parros or another of these 6ft 4in 250+ lbs guys.
If the Rangers turned it around a won the game the spin would be Gaborik sparks them to victory by fighting Carcillo.
Gaborik 6ft 1in. 200lbs vs. Carcillo 6ft 205lbs. Not really a miss match.
But Gaborik has a vagina while DC well… doesn’t.
(sorry if that is not appropriate. Just being honest.)
by orangeandblack20 on Jan 22, 2010 11:21 AM EST reply actions
Honestly guys, I think you gotta give Gabby credit for sticking up for himself. It wasn’t a smart decision, but unlike the rest of that team(sans Avery) he at least showed some moxy. After Asham bulldozed Henrik… nothing?
I saw on a MB on CBS somebody wanted to run Emery and I was just like good freaking luck. Emery is a better fighter than anybody else on our entire team haha.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 22, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
How did Gabby stick up for himself? He was in the middle of a scrum where his team had the advantage, DC went over to him and pulled him off and then he started pushing and shoving. DC pushed and shoved back and then Gabby dropped his gloves. In fact, and I am surprised no one mentioned this yet but Gabby should have gotten 2 for instigating. The refs could have totally screwed the Flyers last night with that mess but thankfully they didn’t.
First of all, we got a PP out of that scrum if you will remember so I can’t see how you are complaining about the refs. And I would consider a premiere goal scorer fighting Dan Carcillo standing up for himself. Compare that to Ovechkin’s “whatever you call it” with Downie and Crosby infamous ball punching and jumping somebody before hey even know what hit them.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 22, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
First off, you clearly didn’t read my comment, I said “The refs could have totally screwed the Flyers last night with that mess but thankfully they did not.” What part of that statement was a complaint. If anything, I was singing the praises of the refs for doing a good job.
Secondly, I don’t care if Gaborik is a premier goal scorer or not. If you start a fight then you are by definition not sticking up yourself. You are therefore the instigator which is exactly what Gaborik was. In this instance, he dropped his gloves first. He threw the first punch. So he didn’t stick up for anything. He started a fight and got what he got.
If I walked up to you and punched you in the face, and then you turned around and gave me a beat down would you say that I was defending myself? No, you would say that I started a fight. Whether Gaborik is a premier goal scorer or not has nothing to do with any of this. There are a lot of guys past and present who are goal scorers that will and have dropped the gloves before. Either to start a fight or to defend themselves.
Nah I read it, just the wrong way. I thought you meant they botch the call, and that could have screwed the Flyers but it didn’t because we won the game. Simple misunderstanding. I thought you meant in the way we were screwed by Gags no gaol, but it didn’t screw us because we won.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 22, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for putting this up Travis
I was over at Blueshirt Banter earlier today, and when you try to argue logic and breakdown the video and pictures with them, they resort to petty name-calling (one even asserted that Flyers fans had Downs Syndrome – luckily a Rangers fan who knew someone with DS forced him to apologize) and flaunting their past successes, including the fact that they are the latest to win a Stanley Cup.
It is clear though that they have been corrupted by the distortions of Rosen-Micheletti and the rest of the subtle and not-so-subtle jabs by the media and distortions and lies told by the Rangers previously mentioned in this post so much so they are too far past the point of being reasoned into watching the video and studying the pictures with an open mind free of the biasness, lies, and distortions fed to them over and over last night by several different outlets.
Fire Andy Reid - From horrible clock management to wasted timeouts to using the pass to set up the pass, he is one of the worst gameday coaches in the league.
Yeah, I’m the guy who supposedly has down syndrome haha.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 22, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
He turned it into a generalization though: “more f***ing flyers fans with downs syndrome”.
Very classy. Down Syndrome should never be brought up like that.
Fire Andy Reid - From horrible clock management to wasted timeouts to using the pass to set up the pass, he is one of the worst gameday coaches in the league.
I love how all this crap is also so ridiculous coming off that Toronto game where Colton Orr and other goons ran at Richards all game long and in the playoffs last year Pens ran at Kimmo all series long.
Even if by looking through smurf colored glasses you interpret that fight as Carcillo going after Gaborik this is nothing new to the sport so Torts should shut the hell up.
Going after star players with physical intimidating has been part of hockey since well FOREVER. That is why there are GOONS on teams it is not like we invented this I don’t get what all the complaining is about. Teams ran at Bobby Clarke when he game into league that is why became the Bullies in the 1st place. Torts is a crybaby. Carcillo also fought him in a pretty gentlemanly manner he could have continued to pound away at him when he was down but he didn’t. Gaborik didn’t even get hurt. Keep crying Tort your over-reacting and crying and whining will cost your team games, A-Hole.
Cue the obligatory “grown men shouldn’t get paid to throw tantrums” and “this is everything that’s wrong with hockey” comments. I can’t decide whether this Tweet is in reference to Tortorella or the fighting, because the only tantrum I saw came from the NYR head coach.
How long before TSN writes another fighting is bad for the sport nonsense article?
Awesome read, Travis.
I wonder now though, if JVR or Giroux are gonna watch their back when these two teams go at it again. Torts seems like the guy who will seek revenge for this. Luckily though, all of our lines have someone to stand up for the non-fighters. Richards can handle himself on the first line. Hartnell will drop them to protect Carter and Briere. Asham will go after anyone who tries to take a run at JVR or Giroux. Then you have Lappy and Carcillo more than happy to drop their gloves.
This lie that is being started is doing nothing but bad things for the game of hockey. I bet if Carcillo hadn’t dropped them (never would have happened) but Gaborik sucker-punched him to the ground, the NY Media would be boasting how Gaborik is the best all around hockey player who will do it all for his team, instead of being referred to as the “Rangers’ elegant pacifist.”
by Flyers and Terriers on Jan 22, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions
Larry Brooks is an idiot. I’m not siding with either team here, although I do think Tortorella had a point in standing up for his forward. BUT…BUT…if any of his teammates felt the same way, they would’ve jumped in like Bradley did for Ovechkin just a few or two ago. And if Gabby didn’t want to fight in the first place he could’ve kept the mitts on and tried to draw an instigator.
But in the end Brooks tried to say that there was no honor in the fight, then in today’s Post questions Tortorella’s honor, and yet at the SAME time tried to put himself into the story, almost at times even above it. There’s some honor code there as well I believe.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
This must suck coming from Pitts perspective, which team to side with haha Come to the dark side Frank come to the dark side.
"NO HONOR"
haha
nevuhhhhhhhhh
I side with particulars.
Carcillo vs. Gaborik, I side with the Rangers
Hartnell vs Avery, I side with the Flyers (Loved that beat down btw. I’ve watched a few times today to for a laugh)
Avery vs Carcillo, I remain neutral
Asham vs. Voros, I remain neutral
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
So you think Carcillo jumped Gaborik? I mean, I can understand why they are upset that one of their best players was in a fight, but the question Rangers’ fans should be asking this morning is, “What was Marion thinking?”
Carcillo will take that fight every time as would any tough guy on any team.
Why didn’t another Ranger come to his aid if he was “jumped”?
I actually mentioned it in a post today.
To be honest, I’m entertained by it all, that’s for sure. I think one of Gaborik’s teammates should’ve stood up for him, which tends to be the way when a tough guy/instigator mixes it up with one of your scorers. I knew – you knew, Rangers fans knew – hell, EVERYONE knew that was not going to end well for Gaborik.
I don’t think Gabby was jumped. I will agree that defending for himself was not the brightest of ideas. I understand where Tortorella is coming from too, but I think he should look at his locker room first before he starts blaming the other team for attacking his sniper. Someone should’ve stepped up for him or Gaborik should’ve just skated back to the bench in exchange for a guy who would be more than willing to fight Carcillo (Voros, Avery).
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Here is where I am hung up. How can a guy who drops his gloves first, and throws the first punch, be classified as defending himself? He started the fight. That is called an instigator is it not?
Well, at the least it’s not like the league allowed him to get free punches in on Carcillo. I think in the end Gaborik wound up defending himself anyway because Carcillo quickly gained the momentum of the fight. So even if Gaborik did initiate it, he was on his heels right away.
Again, this is where it’s not a bad penalty to be a third man in, from the Rangers’ perspective. Last year Ruslan Fedotenko brought his hand on Colby Armstrong’s face during a fight. Tenk is not the Penguins’ version of Gaborik, but it’s just evidence to the fact that those things can happen. All the more reason for the Rangers to pull Gaborik out of the fight or frankly, just turtle. It’s risky. And I know emotions were flying pretty high, but he obviously contained it long enough to take that equally stupid and costly slashing call later on.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
I miss Rusty. All he’s done since we traded him is win 2 Stanley Cups. You guys are lucky to have him, but I’m sure you realize that.
Although if you put things into perspective, we essentially traded him for Chris Pronger. The Flyers traded him to Tampa in exchange for their first round pick (4th overall) in 2003, which became Joni Pitkanen. We later sent Pitkanen to Edmonton for Joffrey Lupul, and we sent Lupes to Anaheim for Pronger.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Fedotenko’s been underperforming on a $1.8m contract this year, so I’m not sure I miss him very much.
I miss Umberger a heck of a lot more, way way way more.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 22, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Well, like I said, I miss him, but if you look at things from a long-term view, we essentially got Pronger for him. So I don’t miss him THAT much.
You know who I do miss THAT much? Patrick Sharp.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Re: Patrick Sharp
He was never going to play for the Flyers.
He was behind Forsberg, Primeau, and Handzus on the NHL depth chart. Plus Richards and Carter were rookies that year. Even if they acquired him today, he’d still only be fighting to center the third line (with Giroux).
Clarke did an honorable thing (which the Flyers franchise has done consistently through the years) and sent him somewhere that he could have a shot at a career instead of being shuttled to the Phantoms. And they still have Matsumoto to show for that deal.
The other thing you have to consider is that making trades like that one, and the Boucher trade to San Jose, is one reason the Flyers can sign players to better contracts: because they still have a family atmosphere to the organization. Thats one thing (and I know I’m way afield now) that you need to consider when you talk about getting rid of Ed Snider. (If I recall you are a proponent of that, no?) When Ed goes, this because a much more ugly-corporate franchise and it will effect the on-ice product.
that’s definitely a good observation and it makes it easier to swallow some of the moves that have been made in the past where we got rid of a player that eventually blossomed someplace else.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 22, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Clarke did an honorable thing (which the Flyers franchise has done consistently through the years) and sent him somewhere that he could have a shot at a career instead of being shuttled to the Phantoms. And they still have Matsumoto to show for that deal.
Well, if Matsumoto is allowed to come up and prove his worth, then that’s a good thing. Matt Ellison isn’t coming back any time soon.
I like the way the Flyers do – and have done – business with players, treating them like family for the most part. That’s one of the truly great things about this organization, and that’s something that Ed Snider has done particularly well. My issues with Snider have to do with the faulty side of his loyalty, where “Flyers-for-life” are brought in to run things instead of individuals who may be more qualified.
As ugly as the Russ Farwell era was, at least he tried to bring in outside voices to take care of business in the organ-eye-zation. He just did a lousy job at it.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I like the way the Flyers do – and have done – business with players, treating them like family for the most part. That’s one of the truly great things about this organization, and that’s something that Ed Snider has done particularly well. My issues with Snider have to do with the faulty side of his loyalty, where "Flyers-for-life" are brought in to run things instead of individuals who may be more qualified.
I’ll respond very simply: You can’t bring in outside people and still call it a family.
I agree with you in that the trade was a good thing for Sharp, but the Flyers could have just as easily moved Sharp to wing as they do with pretty much everyone else. Sharp has been a left winger in Chicago since he was traded. The Flyers love to load up on centers and then convert some of them, or ask some of them to play on the wings. No reason they couldn’t have done that with Sharp. But whatever, that was long ago and it’s pointless to rehash it now.
Everything you said makes perfect sense, but looking at the team the year he was traded (05-06) shows a crap ton of centers with a ton of crappy wingers. Umberger, Knuble, Kapanen, and Gagne were the only wingers to register 15 points or more that year, and looking at the yearly stats on NHL.com shows that Sharp only took 38 faceoffs in 22 games. If they were using him as a center (which they obviously did, but not primarily), it was a really poor decision. Their top faceoff takers were Handzus, Forsberg, Richards, Carter, and Nedved. Primeau only played 9 games and wasn’t coming back, so that’s why he isn’t on that list.
Basically, it’s very true they traded him because he wasn’t going to play here, but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t or couldn’t play here. Wingers who had more games than Sharp that year included: Ben Eager, Turner Stevenson, Jon Sim, Branko Radivojevic, and Brian Savage. While Sharp’s numbers weren’t amazing (8 points in 22 games), he had a higher points per game than all of them.
So, everything you said is true, but that doesn’t mean it was the right more or that I’m still not extremely bitter about the trade. I had a decent-sized man-crush on Sharp, which I probably should have revealed sooner, but yeah… I hate this trade still.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 22, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, where was he going to play in that or the next year? This was the depth chart for forwards, regardless of position:
Forsberg
Primeau
Gagne
Knuble
Handzus
Kapanen
Richards
Carter
Umberger
At best, he’s on the fourth line, playing with Donald Brashear and a forward to be determined. By going to Chicago, he got 16:18 TOI and the following season he had 18:30 TOI. That was never going to happen in Philly, so he probably wouldn’t have developed into the same player.
That year, I already said Primeau wasn’t coming back. But when Kyle Calder and Geoff Sanderson play 58 games or more the next season, I think it’s safe to say he could have found a spot.
I can’t get more specific since I don’t know the contract status of why guys didn’t come back, but the team the following year could certainly have used him.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 22, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
MarioD is right on this one Geoff Sharp would have never been able to shine here. Primeau and Forsberg went down with Career Ending Injuries, and Handzus needed major knee surgury. If we could have predicted all that was going to happen we probably would have kept him.
All nine guys I listed above were expected back the following season.
Of that list, only Primeau wasn’t in the opening night lineup.
When that season went bad, the Flyers traded Handzus and Forsberg…
They traded Handzus before the season for Kyle Calder, leaving Primeau and Handzus out of the opening night lineup. So on opening night, they dressed Kyle Calder, Boyd Kane, Randy Robitaille, Geoff Sanderson, and Petr Nedved.
He would not have been on the fourth line on that team. The argument that third line minutes weren’t enough for him is completely logical and understandable. But there was a spot for him, the Flyers just didn’t want to give it to him.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 24, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
er “brought” is supposed to read “broke,” but I’m sure that can be determined
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As a Penquins fan you should be an expert on jumping star players. For that I am grateful that you came over he to provide us so kindly with your expert analysis.
Come on, man.
No need to play that card.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
I have to admit, that is pretty funny. Well played.
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No one said my opinion was expert analysis, but thanks for taking the mouth-breather approach to the commentary here. Everyone else was pretty civil and offering some decent opinions until you decided to jump in with your off-topic attempt at…whatever it is you tried to do.
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I’m not trying to put words in Frank’s mouth (or type them on his keyboard, in this case) but I think he means he prefers Gaborik as a player to Carcillo. Therefore, in a fight, he’d root for Gabby to beat Carbomb.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
That’s accurate, which also stood as the deciding factor in picking Hartnell over Avery. I dislike both of those guys but it was almost like picking the lesser of two evils, but I utterly despise Avery. Seeing Hartnell beat him down was beautiful.
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
We can all agree on hating Avery. And Seeing Hartnell beat him down was great. Who knew we could all bond over such an asshat?
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
What’s funny is Pens/Flyers fans bond over hating Avery. Rangers/Flyers fans bond over hating Crosby. It’s a universal theme to just find a way to become the friend to your enemy’s enemy. haha
Follow the Penguins on SBN @ Pensburgh.com and twitter.
Pens/Rangers fans bond over hating… Carcillo? or Hartnell?
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 23, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Come hither to the NY Media lies!!!!!!!
"NO HONOR"
by JpH89 on Jan 22, 2010 1:02 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
Travis, thanks for this well-thought, reasoned post. There’s so much crap flying around this morning that it’s nice to see that I’m not the only one who finds it mind-boggling. And it seems as if with more time and hindsight others are getting it too (outside of BSB and the NY media, but we can’t expect anything different there)…
Philly Sports and Coyotes Hockey - and yes, I am tired of defending my teams...
haha - this is funny
quote from a comment made by some stooge on the Larry Brooks NY Post story this morning:
As for Carcillo and Laviolette claiming Gaborik dropped the gloves first? It was obvious that the only reason a glove was dropped by Gaborik was to get a better grip in defending himself. I don’t believe there was a punch thrown by Gaborik with the glove off. He just trying to get hold of a jersey.
yeah- he was trying to hold on to Carcillo, he dropped his gloves for a better grip… huh?
the way of the newspaper
Someone should start a Flying Spaghetti Monster-esque spiritual path and call it The Way of The Newspaper.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
As in...
Q: Do you subscribe to any particular faith, like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.?
A: We follow our own unique path. Ours is the path to true consciousness, light, and inner peace. Ours is The Way of the Newspaper.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
They have to do something to keep people buying the paper, if they don’t, the newspaper will soon be a thing of the past.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
They need a new business model that doesn’t comprise of using evaporating ad dollars as the main source of revenue. They clearly aren’t smart enough or determined enough to succeed on merit though, so they sink to turning their newspaper in to sensationalist crap. Unfortunately, there’s always a market for that crap.
It’s the way almost all of Murdoch’s publications are run.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
They need a new business model that doesn’t comprise of using evaporating ad dollars as the main source of revenue.
Surely then, they must travel The Way of the Newspaper.
It’s the way almost all of Murdoch’s publications are run.
“I wonder what’s on Fox tonight? Something ribald, no doubt!”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
It's New York!!!
Did you expect anything else from NY media. They are always watching a different game than the rest of us. Larry Brooks is a TOOL!!!!!!!
I love New York, just hate the prevalent attitude towards other cities up there.
I once had a gig up there during New Years’ Eve 2006 – 2007 (during That Awful Season). While taking a break from playing, I found myself having a nice conversation with a perfectly lovely young lady… or so I thought.
Here’s how the conversation essentially ended, following the small talk, flirtation, and what have you:
Girl: Where in The City do you live?
MikeFive: I don’t live here. I’m staying with my cousin in Astoria.
G: Oh? Where’s home then?
MF: Philadelphia.
G (in condescending tone): Oh. Fascinating.
MF: It is actually, especially if you know your way around.
G (in same condescending tone): You shouldn’t have to “know your way around” if you want to have a good time in your town.
MF: Most of us do, anyway. For what it’s worth, you do know that several New Yorkers have moved to Philly recently, right? (This was during that whole “Sixth Borough” business a few years ago.)
G: Well, when they have enough sense and money, they’ll move back.
MF: If you say so.
At this point the conversation came to a grinding halt, as you can imagine.
It’s a shame because most people I’ve met up there are genuinely outgoing and easy to get along with. But I shouldn’t have to hide where I’m from or be ashamed of it just because Philadelphia is not the same size as NYC.
As for their media, they have a similar attitude of having to be one-up on everyone. It’s ridiculous, and it comes out in many small ways. You know how KYW 1060 has “Traffic and Transit on the 2s?” Well, KYW’s sister station in NYC has “Traffic and Transit on the 1s.” No word of a lie. Everything happens first in NYC, right down to the traffic reports.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
G (in same condescending tone): You shouldn’t have to "know your way around" if you want to have a good time in your town.
Maybe it’s lost in time, but was she suggesting you don’t have to “know your way around” New York to have a good time??
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 22, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently, she’s suggesting that you can have fun no matter where you are in NYC, which is total horseshit. There are quite a few areas in the city where you would have a less than ideal time, especially if you’re an ignorant tourist.
And my reply to her would have been; “So a man shouldn’t have to know his way around to please a woman, either, but it helps, no?” Hello?!?
She was suggesting just that, and you are right. If memory serves, she was originally from somewhere outside of Long Island City or thereabouts, and she likely did not spend tons of time in the Bronx or Harlem. Oh, the irony.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
In other words, she came from the suburbs and likely only knew the “safe” parts of New York, which for her translated into “The Whole City.”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Exactly.
I agree with her that there is a ton of cool stuff up there, but that’s in part due to the sheer size of the city.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Throw two million people on a tiny island and they’re gonna find fun stuff to do.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
You still have to know where the cool stuff is.
And we have cool stuff too, as do plenty of other cities. It’s just that they don’t bother giving any other city a chance, it’s not just Philly.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 22, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Also, notice her use of the word “town” to describe Philadelphia.
A good friend of mine went to Villanova and the NYC kids who matriculated there used to drive him crazy. They always used to tell him, “Philadelphia isn’t a REAL city.”
Apparently we live in a fake city, everyone. Philadelphia does not exist.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Does that mean nobody else can come in?
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Or do visitors just travel through some kind of portal to get here?
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
You’re supposed to have your mind opened when you go off to school. I understand the parochialism of thinking your city is better than others, but to deny it’s a “real” city just because it’s more spread out and doesn’t stay out quite as late, is pretty ethnocentric. Be open to new things; every city has its plusses and minuses. Yes, even NYC!
There are three obvious minuses to NYC: Queens, Staten Island and the Bronx.
I like Brooklyn though.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think another NYC minus is the mentality of ripping things down to get shinier new things up over and over…. I like a little history in my city, not just shiny new concrete. Maybe that’s why I like places like Montreal and Boston so much.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 22, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
… and Philadelphia.
You’re 100 percent right. So much of NYC’s history has been completely covered by concrete several times over. Not that that’s not true in some parts of Philly either, but not nearly to the same extent.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I didn’t mean to leave Philly out, I should have put it in parentheses or something. I more meant to imply that I’m so used to having the history at home so I appreciate it in other places.
One of my favorite restaurants in NY (and it was a well-known, high profile one) was closed a year and a half ago because they eminent domained the building to put something shinier in it’s place. But there was nothing wrong with the building that was there before, it was a perfectly nice building that was in good shape. They wanted some sort of luxury hotels or condos or something there, so out it went, leaving a famous TV chef to close a 12 or so year old restaurant that was still always packed.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 22, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
I went to school outside of Princeton and we had a ton of NY cast offs too. NY was referred to as “The City”, despite Philly being an hour closer. And on a college student’s budget, much more affordable.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
I was watching/listening to the last 25 minutes or so of NHL Live on NHLN. They had Eddie “Don’t call me Ed” Olczyk on there; and he was bitching about Carcillo. I didn’t catch all of it but, he was condemning Carcillo for throwing punches at Gabby; because after all, if some guy starts punching you, you aren’t supposed to hit back. But that doesn’t surprise me about Eddie-O, he always has a thing or two to say about the Flyers.
About five minutes later, they had Lappy on there, and they asked him about what he thought about the whole situation. He said he saw Gabby throw a punch/drop his gloves first, Carcillo saw that and took advantage.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
Did Eddie O have a response to Lappy, or was he already drunk by that point?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 22, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Don't blame Eddy...
Sportcasters are like Weathermen they don’t take time to look at the data/game and formulate their own opinion they just repeat what someone else calculated/says. Who has time to look at the radar/clip?
So we can’t blame him because he’s lazy and sucks at his job?
I wish I got that treatment.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
I just mentioned this on the other thread, but Jim Rome’s final burn was against the Rangers in regard to the Carcillo-Gaborik fight. He says Tortorella should be pissed about the lack of honor, but moreso about the lack of honor in his own lockerroom to not defend your star player when he decides to drop the gloves with a known tough guy. Says what hockey player won’t take the chance to remove a 30-goal scorer from the ice if given the opportunity?
So…same conclusion we came to essentially. The NY media is just in denial.
I’m with you, I’d rather they not cover it if they’re going to butcher it when they do.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 22, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Funny bit of discussion going on about this over on SBN.com.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
Use this link instead: http://www.sbnation.com/2010/1/22/1265320/daniel-carcillo-sean-avery-marian-gaborik-fight-comments-NHL?show_comments=true
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 22, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
It’s New York. They’re as bad as Pissburgh. Did you really expect anything less than our “goons” “jumping” their almighty stars? I was about to say I hope Crosby took notice because Carcillo would lay him flat out too if Cindy wanted to go with him but I forgot- Cindy fights from behind (third man in) and punches a.sses not faces. Let’s go Flyers!
I’m glad those votes settled in, Gaborik had like 30% yesterday it was scary.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 22, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Its one thing to have a bulls eye on your uniform when you are the top team in the League, but is seams everywhere I turn all forms of media are always helping paint a target on our emblem. It makes for great games, but it is a long season before the real season starts.
I secretly wish we could fly under the radar building momentum from now on till April but I doubt that will happen.
I can’t tell for sure, but is that Wade Redden on the left, or is it Avery?
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This is a great article
It’s been linked in our upcoming Off the Post article at Fear the Fin, along with a companion piece by Puck Daddy, in which PD is unfortunately fulfilling the Larry Brooks role. Check it out (um, in 15 minutes…).
Fear the Fin: "C'mon Drew, we're going streaking!" - Randy Hahn, 12/31/09
"Say whatever the fuck you want!" - Danny Miller, 1/9/10
by Conico do Mayo Miracle on Jan 24, 2010 2:45 AM EST reply actions
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