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Where's the Defensive Depth?

A lot was made before the season about how much Chris Pronger would help this team's defense.  By bumping everyone back on the depth chart, he was expected to make everyone better. 

Unfortunately, that hasn't really been the case.  Much has already been said about how much Pronger has helped Matt Carle, but the Flyers are giving up 2.78 goals per game this year, barely down from the 2.83 they gave up last year.  What's the problem?

The problem is a lack of depth.  Aside from the top three of Pronger, Carle, and Kimmo Timonen, the Flyers defense just hasn't performed.  Everybody is waiting for Braydon Coburn to step up, but even with his qualteam going from -0.204 to -0.016 since Stevens was fired, his GVT has only gone from 2.1 to 2.3.  His offense is down too, with 1 goal and 2 assists in his last 25 games, down from four and seven in his first 25.  He also registered a minus-4 in both 25 game intervals.

While Coburn has been disappointing, the real problem is that the team has to dress two defensemen worse than him every game.  So far this year, the team has seen Danny Syvret, Ryan Parent, Oskars Bartulis, and Ole-Kristian Tollefsen rotate in those two roles each night.  Needless to say, the third pairing has been awful for almost the entire season.  Even worse, the team doesn't have any players in the AHL ready to fill in right now.  Because of this, Tollefsen appears to have been benched yesterday and Paul Holmgren has publicly admitted to searching for a depth defenseman.

After the jump, a look at the four fill-ins and any potential replacements from within the system.

Star-divide

GP G A Pts +/- Corsi QoC Corsi QoT RPM OGVT DGVT Total GVT
Danny Syvret 21 2 2 4 1 -0.440 1.893 0.2 0.3 0.9 1.1
Ole-Kristian Tollefsen 16 0 2 2 -1 -0.729 0.155 -1.5 -0.1 0.3 0.2
Ryan Parent 28 0 2 2 -5 -1.567 0.881 -6.5 -0.6 0.2 -0.4
Oskars Bartulis 37 0 6 6 -13 -0.626 2.262 -14.3 -0.4 -0.4 -0.8

 

Anybody see a problem?  No one in this table is worthy of praise, except for maybe OKT simply because he stayed healthy enough to dress in 16 games. 

Surprisingly, Danny Syvret has separated himself from the pack, but he's still trailing Andrew Alberts in total GVT.  The fact that he's the least terrible defenseman in this group isn't much of a consolation.  There are still some positives to take out of his play so far though:  1) he isn't in the negative in plus/minus; 2) he's facing the stiffest competition in the group; 3) and he is doing it with less than Bartulis.  That last one isn't saying much, but Syvret had turned his season around before getting injured.

After all of the praise heaped upon Oskars Bartulis when he first came up and took the 6th defenseman job from Syvret, it's amazing how far he has fallen.  He's facing about the same competition as OKT with incredibly better teammates, yet he is still by far the worst defenseman of the group.  He showed some decent chemistry with Parent, but his play has deteriorated since then.  The day Parent got hurt December 26th, Bartulis had a 0.1 GVT.  Now, he has a -0.8 GVT.  How much of that can actually be attributed to Parent's injury is unknown, but pairing him with OKT couldn't help his confidence

For as bad as Tollefsen is, his numbers are better than expected.  He's facing bad competition with bad teammates and he's almost treading water.  The bar was set low for Tollefsen, but he isn't flying too far below it.  Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Lastly, Ryan Parent has to be the biggest disappointment in this table.  A lot of people - me included - expected a lot from Parent this year and he didn't come through.  For some reason, this kid just can't stay healthy.  He's only played 81 professional games the past two years (in the NHL and AHL) and he wasn't exactly remarkable.  With him expected to miss another 6 weeks, Paul Holmgren finally has to make a move.  This should have been made earlier since the team was essentially working with four NHL-level defenseman for most of the year, but Parent's injury makes everyone realize they need help.

The problem is that the team doesn't have anybody ready to step in from the AHL and pick up the slack.  In this regard, I'm incredibly jealous of Washington, who have two good young defensemen - Karl Alzner and John Carlson - unable to crack their roster.  Unfortunately, the Flyers' top prospects are still a year or two away.  The Phantoms currently have seven defensemen on their roster, five of which are 24 or younger.  Joonas Lehtivuori, Kevin Marshall, and Marc-Andre Bourdon are all 21 years old and not likely to be much better than Syvret, Bartulis, or Tollefsen right now.  Veterans Joey Mormina and Sean Curry also don't instill a lot of confidence in their ability to step in and play at the NHL level either, with a combined one NHL game played.  Phantoms' defensemen this year:

Name Pos GP G A PTS +/- PIM
Joonas Lehtivuori D 31 3 8 11 2 10
Joey Mormina D 42 2 9 11 -6 49
Marc-Andre Bourdon D 40 1 7 8 -8 47
Sean Curry D 36 1 5 6 -12 36
Kevin Marshall D 39 2 1 3 -5 43
Logan Stephenson D 30 0 2 2 -1 97
David Sloane D 12 0 1 1 -2 0

All of those players in the minus is troubling, but that's mainly the result of the Phantoms just being a bad team.  There are only two forwards on the team with a positive rating - Jon Kalinski and Lukas Kaspar.  Kaspar was a plus-2 in eight games before being released from his contract, and Kalinski is a plus-1.  Jason Ward has managed an even rating, for what it's worth.

While these stats don't show much of any good news, the two young defensemen appear to be struggling:  neither Bourdon nor Marshall have done much to warrant a call up.  Who is surprising though, is Joonas Lehtivuori.  I'm sure very few of you are aware of who he is or where he came from, but as the only defenseman to be in the positive, lead the blueline in points, and take so few penalties, he is suddenly the best defenseman the Flyers have in the AHL right now.

Lehtivuori was the Flyers' fourth round pick (101st overall) in 2006 and spent his entire career playing for Ilves Tampere in the SM-liga.  His best year was 2007-08, where he registered 8 goals and 13 assists in 48 games, adding a goal and an assist in 9 playoff games.  This is his first year in North America, and he appears to be adjusting very nicely.  As a puck-carrying defenseman he might have trouble finding a spot in the Flyers' lineup, but he's the biggest bright spot right now.

The guys with previous AHL experience - Mormina, Curry, and Stevenson - don't exactly exude confidence either.  In looking at their GVT while in the AHL, Joey Mormina has the best career GVT/G at 0.05, equal to what Danny Syvret is pulling in the NHL right now.  While that isn't exactly good news, there is some good news (which is also more bad news) on Mormina though:  He had his best AHL season last year for Wilkes-Barre Scranton, pulling in a 0.14 per game rating.  The bad news is that he had just a 0.02 per game career rating before last year.  Maybe last year was the start of a trend, but much more likely is that last season was an outlier.  That said, he still looks to be the second best defenseman on the Phantoms so far this year.

 

Conclusion

Maybe the Flyers could have gotten by with Parent and Syvret this year - the original plan - but with both of them down, there simply aren't any other defensemen playing at an NHL-level right now capable of stepping up.  There are some decent prospects - Marshall, Bourdon, and Lehtivuori - but none that could reasonably be expected to step in tomorrow and play. 

This is definitely something to keep in mind when Coburn, Parent, Tollefsen, and Syvret all become free agents this summer.

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Am I glad Nashville doesn’t have this problem. In the way of defensemen who could play an NHL shift right now (with several who will be big time stars), we have:
Teemu Laakso, Ryan Ellis, Jonathan Blum, Roman Josi, Robert Dietrich, Nolan Yonkman, and a few more.

I wish we could turn a couple of those guys into good forwards…

On the Forecheck is SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators.
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by Chris Burton on Jan 25, 2010 9:20 PM EST reply actions  

Want Hartnell back?

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 25, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

um

I said “good” forwards.

Nah, Harts is good enough but not really a place for him right now. I wouldn’t bump anyone out of the current lineup for him.

Wanna send over JVR, though, and we’ll talk… ;)

On the Forecheck is SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators.
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by Chris Burton on Jan 25, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Teemu Laasko and Nolan Yonkman are great names.

You guys have a knack for drafting good defensemen.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Really? You’re going to write this entire article without mentioning that Holmgren gave away an NHL defenseman in October?

Doesn’t even warrant mentioning that the 4th largest cap hit the Flyers’ have amongst defensemen is a guy who wears purple and silver every night?

by MarioD on Jan 25, 2010 9:25 PM EST reply actions  

We covered that. Before. Remember. Over and over again. We get it. Powe sucks. Reemer sucks. Syvret sucks.

by orangeandblack20 on Jan 25, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Funny, I didn’t mention any of those three players…

by MarioD on Jan 25, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s a miracle that you went an entire post without doing so, which makes it worth mentioning.

by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 25, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You aren’t possibly referring to Randy Jones are you?

by EREX21 on Jan 26, 2010 7:08 AM EST up reply actions  

And at least one in July (yes, of course, we got one in return for that, but still…). I miss Sbisa.

"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."

by eeeeee on Jan 26, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Sbisa was not and is not NHL ready. He is currently playing for the Ducks AHL affiliate.

by EREX21 on Jan 26, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

A big thank you to John Stevens for that. Wasting tons of minutes last year on turnover machine Randy Jones and a handful of others that could have/should have gone to Sbisa to get him NHL ready. If he would have made the exact same number of highlight reel mistakes Randy Jones did last year, it would have been all for the better, because at least he would have learned something from them.

Of course at this point this is just me griping and being bitter, unlike twelve months ago when I was making the same argument as part of my “run John Stevens out of town” campaign.

"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."

by eeeeee on Jan 26, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone knows that the best way to win hockey games is to dress an 18 year who’s never played in North America before…

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

No one ever said that the right call was necessarily the easy one to make.

"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."

by eeeeee on Jan 26, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

By the way, Anaheim proved Stevens’ decision correct by sending Luca to the AHL this season.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

And please know that when I say that Sbisa couldn’t have possibly been worse than Randy Jones, that there is no hint of exaggeration in there. Especially since there was weeks of evidence of Sbisa playing with the Flyers to make an argument with. He was better then, he’s better now, and he deserved better than to be sent down from this team.

Anaheim, on the other hand, is still loaded with dmen, despite missing Pronger, Beauchemin and Schneider. Admittedly, I don’t know much about their third pairing of Sheldon Brookbank and Brett Festerling (a name I’ve sadly never even heard before), but I would guess that they’re more of a defensive-minded pairing featuring lots of hits and stay-at-homeism and Sbisa wouldn’t have much of a place there. And it’s pretty hard to argue Sbisa cracking their top 4 or Neidermeyer, Wisniewski, Whitney and Eminger.

But really Anaheim’s decision to send him down has nothing to do with ours- the situations are totally different. They don’t have Randy Jones. ps yes that’s just a joke.

"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."

by eeeeee on Jan 26, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Brookbank is 29 years old and has a GVT of 2.6. He’s a serviceable 6th dman with no upside.
Festerling has a GVT of .1, which means he shouldn’t even be in the top 6 of an NHL roster.

Sbisa was not blocked by talent on that roster.

Randy Jones, by the was, has a 3.9 GVT.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t believe we’re debating the merits of Randy Jones. That’s a damning indiment on what a gaff that was in and of itself.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 26, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It has to be considered the dumbest thing a GM has done since Brett Hull signed Avery.

Seriously, the decision was to get nothing in return for Randy Jones.
And to pay half his salary ($1.35m)

When you add his salary and the salary of the dman they needed to replace him on the roster (lets use Syvrets $575k salary)…

If they would’ve just kept Randy Jones on the roster, it would only have cost them $800k in cap space.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Randy Jones: 2.8 OGVT, 1.1 DGVT, -0.5 RPM, and a 3.34 GAON/60.

So, he’s still a really crappy defenseman who is contributing more to his team’s offense than Scott Hartnell or Simon Gagne are contributing to the Flyers’ offense.

And his DGVT rating is exactly the same as Darroll Powe, and is exactly 0.1 between Dan Carcillo and Danny Briere.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 26, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe that has something to do with Jones having a career year. Entering this year, he’s scored 0.32 points per game. This year, that number is 0.57.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 26, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Which is his natural progression, since last year was to be his breakout year before he suffered a major injury.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

His DGVT is still better than Parent, Syvret, Bartulis, and OKT.

His OGVT isn’t even in the same stratosphere as that foursome.

Hell, his GVT is better than even Coburn. Everyone bitched about paying 4th dman salary to a 3rd pairing guy. But Jones would’ve been their 4th defenseman, and the third pairing would’ve been Coburn and Parent. And this team would’ve been significantly better.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Coburn vs. Jones

OGVT .6 vs 2.8
DGVT 1.7 vs 1.1

QUALCOMP .037 vs -.037
QUALTEAM -.016vs -.405

There’s no question who’s having the better year.

<a href=“http:// ”http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=9&section=qualcomp&mingp=20&mintoi=&team=&pos=D" target="_blank">http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=9&section=qualcomp&mingp=20&mintoi=&team=&pos=D" >Here’s the most remarkable stat of all:

Amongst, defensemen with 20 games played: Randy Jones has the worst QualTeam in the league. BY MORE THAN .05 !

Ryan Parent had the second worst teammates amongst 20 GP Dmen.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure how I fucked up that embed, but here’s the QualTeam filtered by a minimum of 20 games played and Dmen which shows Randy Jones has been stuck with the worst teammates in the league

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=9&section=qualcomp&mingp=20&mintoi=&team=&pos=D" >Chart

(I think its something in the code of the site address screwing up the link, but at least this one is hotlinked.)

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Sbisa is in juniors, actually. Not the AHL

Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Travis Hughes on Jan 26, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that by choice? Or was he not allowed to go to the AHL yet?

Ie: Being in juniors means he’s ineligible to return until his junior season ends. Did Anaheim decide he wasn’t even worth keeping available in the AHL?

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Anaheim’s AHL situation is weird and they have their prospects scattered around the league. They don’t have a direct affiliate. I’m not sure if that has any impact on their decisions with these guys at all. Not that it matters with Sbisa.

To be eligible to play in the AHL, you need to have played at least four seasons in juniors or be 20 years old. Sbisa is in his fourth season and turns 20 on the 30th of this month. Once his junior team is eliminated this season, he can be sent to the AHL to finish that season.

Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Travis Hughes on Jan 26, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, so they didn’t have the option of sending him somewhere and recalling him two weeks later if someone was hurt… they had to keep him on the roster or banish him until his junior season ended.

Im curious, if an NHL player plays in the WJC (as Sbisa was slated to), would he still count against the cap?

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t think of an example where an NHL player was allowed to play in the WJC by his club. It happens in the AHL but I’m not sure it’s ever happened in the NHL.

Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Travis Hughes on Jan 26, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

That is my knowledge, as well.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, good point. Their 2008 first round pick was a dman who might’ve been capable to fill in right now, but was traded away so that this team could “win now (about 50% of the time)”.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

In fairness, no one predicted that things would have gone the way they did. Well, maybe you did, but The Hockey News sure didn’t.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Or most of the hockey world for that matter.

by Pondhockey on Jan 26, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

You really want to talk about THN predictions as if they mean something?

2008-09 (Prediction followed by actual)

1 Montreal (8)
2 Pittsburgh (4)
3 Washington (2)
4 Philadelphia (5)
5 Ottawa (11)
6 NYR (7)
7 New Jersey (3)
8 Carolina (6)

9 Tampa (14)
10 Boston (1)
11 Buffalo (10)
12 Florida (9)
13 Atlanta (13)
14 Toronto (12)
15 NYI (15)

In the West last season, they only accurately predicted five playoff teams and the team they had worst in the conference finished in 6th.

1 Detroit (2)
2 San Jose (1)
3 Minnesota (9)
4 Dallas (12)
5 Anaheim (8)
6 Edmonton (11)
7 Chicago (4)
8 Calgary (5)

9 Nashville (10)
10 Phoenix (13)
11 Vancouver (3)
12 Columbus (7)
13 LA (14)
14 Colorado (15)
15 St Louis (6)

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Normally, I don’t agree with Mario, but on this issue, I can’t agree more strongly.

Holmgren has ZERO clue how to manage the cap. He should have sent JVR down, kept Randy here and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. JVR would be tearing it up on the Phantoms, getting tons of ice time and the Flyers would have filled his role easily. I’m not a JVR hater, I love the kid, but that’s really the facts as they stand.

I was also a big proponent of re-signing a guy like Kukkonen or Vannanen or Alberts or even (gulp) Dennis Siedenberg. I know we can argue about the logistics of salary/cap room etc. when talking about the guys above. The problem is that getting a solid 5th guy which we can all agree Homer failed to do, has led to us writing blogs about Danny Syvret being our best 3rd pairing D man.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 26, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m not even trying to get into logistics. Just, very simply, the headline of the article reads:
 “Where’s the Defensive Depth?”

And the answer, quite obviously, is:
 “Playing for the LA Kings, and still costing the Flyers $1.37m against the cap.”

And I don’t know how Geoff can ignore that fact.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I know you aren’t, because at this point everyone is tired of hearing you complain, haha.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 26, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's maybe why Geoff is ignoring that fact:

The writing was on the wall for Randy Jones once Pronger showed up. As we saw last year, he is ill-equipped to handle a role on the 3rd pairing, which is where he would still be if he were here. The only really bad part about his not being here is how he left – through the waiver wire and with half of his salary still on our books. If we had traded him for a decent 3rd-pair defenseman instead, I doubt we’d be having this conversation.

Randy is an offensive defenseman who needs to play in a top-4 role, preferably with a skilled defensive d-man who can cover up for his gaffes. People didn’t complain about him nearly as much two years ago when he was paired with Hatcher and Smith. Last year they stuck him with Andrew Alberts, and look how well that turned out. Honestly, could you imagine the results being much different now if he were on the 3rd pair with Parent, Syvret, Tollefsen, or Bartulis?

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

He’s thriving on LA’s third pairing.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he thrives under Terry Murray, because that’s the one constant between us 2 years ago and LA now.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

The other constant is him being healthy. Which I think is the more likely answer.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d have been fine with someone like Vaananen. He settled in nicely after a while. Kukkonen was useless and Alberts was inconsistent at best. Seidenberg has turned out to be a decent player, but like Randy Jones he needs to be a top-4 guy. He just would not have fit in here.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

JVR would be tearing it up on the Phantoms, getting tons of ice time and the Flyers would have filled his role easily.

Being that this team has to score goals to win I will keep and continue point out that we have 4 count them 4 losses when we score 3 or more goals this year and 3 of those 4 are against the Pens and Caps. Who is going to match JVR’s production of 30 points 4th of the team in scoring and a plus 6 rating highest for forwards on the team. If it is so easy to do I am sure you can come out with a few names.

by chrislanci on Jan 27, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Manny Malhotra? Hasn’t this been discussed already? 700K, wasn’t signed until Sept. 23, so there is no argument that he wasn’t out there. Mario was saying for months to sign the guy. He’s got 21 pts and he’s less than 1/2 the cost of JVR.

So the trade off is 9 less pts for almost 1MM in cap room, which could have been used to keep Jones and have a legitmate caliber 3rd pairing of D men.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

And Malhotra would win faceoffs and play stronger defense.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Malhotra doesn’t replace JVR, he would remove Blair Betts. Malhotra isn’t a third-line scoring winger.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Powe moves to wing.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Powe is already at wing.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Malhotra should’ve gone onto the roster at center. Powe to wing, JVR to AHL.

This is what the line combos are now:

Gags-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy
JVR-Powe-Asham

This is what the should’ve been:

Gags-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Powe-Malhotra-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Two of the past three games, Powe has skated with Richards and Gagne, not Giroux.

Thursday and Saturday.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That makes two out of 51 games. And Laviolette has already come to his senses and realized that you need a player on the first line with the ability to stay on his feet for an entire shift.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, I thought we were talking about NOW, not the past 4 months.

Crap, the goalposts are already moving, so let me dive out of this argument while I can.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

What on earth are you talking about??

In your language “now” is defined as “a tiny sample size from a week ago, while ignoring the most recent data, which outweighs the overwhelming majority of data”?? That seems like a pretty fair definition.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You want big picture? Giroux has taken 318 faceoffs to Powe’s 137.

Who plays more at center? No, certainly, “Powe moves to wing”. “Powe is already at wing” is clearly wrong. Except for the data.

Goalpost fills with cement.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not sure what your argument is. Regardless of where Powe/Giroux is playing now or for the bulk of the season thus far, we’re hypothetically discussing what Homer SHOULD have done which would not have led us to making posts about Danny Syvret being our best “suck-ass” defenseman.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you on drugs? What are you even talking about?

What position do you think these guys plays?

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

(Insert degrading comment to show how superior I am)

You apparently think Powe is a center. "Powe moves to wing."

What I’m talking about is that he is not.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Geoff, we get it, I don’t think that’s the point though. The point is that there are moves that Homer could have made (even as late as September 23) that would have put this team in a much better position to succeed.

Yes, I know hindsight is 20/20 and all us armchair GM’s can sit here and say, “well, if I was GM…blah, blah”, but the fact is that in this case, there were better clearly better alternatives than keeping JVR on the roster.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I certainly agree Malhotra should have been signed. In fact, he could have been signed easily, having Malhotra/JVR/Syvret which certainly would have been better than JVR/Syvret/Pyorala.

I simply separate the trade-off that Homer made with the decision to not sign Malhotra.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

and I’m simply saying that Homer’s decision not to sign Malhotra (or maybe another comparable player) and send JVR down was dumb and is now one of the sole reasons that he’s looking to add another D-man.

That’s all.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

and Geoff, please know, I’m not a JVR “hater”, I love the kid. I just think the benefits of him playing a season in the AHL and the trade-off of the Flyers having a more solid roster were superior to the decision that Homer made.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s completely understandable. And I’m not a Holmgren apologist. Why he didn’t sign Manny, nobody knows. But if he didn’t try, he’s incompetent. Why he brought Jones through re-entry waivers is quite possibly the dumbest thing a GM has ever done (since he said other team’s were calling about him).

Malhotra makes this team a lot better himself, no question. Which is why I separate it. But JVR/Syvret/Pyorala is still better than Jones. Is JVR/Syvret/Pyorala better than Malhotra/Jones? Probably not, but Malhotra/JVR/Syvret/Pyorala is definitely better than Jones, which Homer ALSO could have had.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, ignoring the real equation:

JVR/Syvret/Pyorala/whoever Holmgren trades for to play D this month

compared to

Jones/whatever Holmgren trades away to get a serviceable Dman

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

We’ll cross that bridge when we get there.

As of now, that’s a hypothetical equation.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

How is that hypothetical?

Anyone who watches this team can see they need a dman, and Holmgren has said they need a dman and he’s going to get one.

There’s nothing hypothetical about it. Its got two placeholders in it until we fill in the details, but its a very real comparison.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

and he’s going to get one.

Why don’t you try out a dictionary before you post again: m-w.com

Hypothetical: being or involving a hypothesis.

Hypothesis
: 1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
3 : the antecedent clause of a conditional statement.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m using your definition, namely that you can’t evaluate the result because “that’s a hypothetical equation”.

Sooooo, if by hypothetical, you actually meant

a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences

then “thats a hypothetical equation” is nothing more than a self-contradictory way to dodge answering the question that proves you wrong.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you on drugs? What are you even talking about?

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Answer the question, Geoff. You want to make the argument that they were right to waive Jones? Stop throwing out ridiculous non-sequitors and explain how in the world they are better off creating a gaping hole in their defense corps?

Who is Holmgren going to get that can possibly balance out this equation so that it’s not the better option to have kept Randy Jones:

JVR
Syvret
Pyorala
Whoever Holmgren trades for to play D

vs

Jones
Whatever Holmgren trades away to get a serviceable Dman

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

So that’s a “yes” to whether or not you’re going to continue being a douchebag instead of actually answering the question posed by the conversation?

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Next time, why don’t you actually take the time to write an article that addresses the issue in the title.

Then you won’t have to try to argue your way out of the paper bag you create for yourself.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, whatever the hell your talking about makes no sense.

If the Flyers add Malhotra, Powe plays wing on that line.

You’re trying to challenge that fact with a fucking shell game pretending powe isn’t the third line center. What is the point you’re failing to make?

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

so get a guy like Jon Sim then (if you think they don’t have the skill in the AHL). Are you saying that guys like Sim aren’t a dime a dozen?

Sim + Malhotra = 1.7MM cap hit
Betts + JVR = 2.2MM cap hit

You save 500K in cap hit. You lose essentially 8 pts, but your third pairing is Coburn – Parent/OKT/Barts. Your second pairing is Jones/Timo. You save 600K on Syvret being in the AHL. As Mario established, the cost of Jones is only $800K more than it is now.

How much better is this team realistically, than the one with JVR. I’d say remarkedly.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

You realize Sim is having an absolutely atrocious season, right?

All these hypotheticals are pointless. What happened was the team got JVR/Syvret/Pyorala for Jones. In GVT, that’s 6.5 + 1.1 + -0.6 for 3.9. This team is still far ahead of where they would be with Jones.

Obviously, Homer effed up by trying to put Jones on waivers, but that’s a different argument. That was Homer trying to get all four, which he knew he couldn’t do.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Make the full comparison, not the intellectually dishonest one:

JVR/Syvret/Pyorala = 7 GVT
Jones (3.9 GVT) /Malhotra (5.7 GVT) = 9.6 GVT

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

A hypothetical isn’t “intellectually honest.”

THE tradeoff was JVR/Syvret/Pyorala for Jones. Not for Jones and some guy we didn’t sign.

Adding Malhotra’s 5.7 GVT makes the signing of Betts (2.1) a bad idea. These are two distinctly separate arguments.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would signing Malhotra make it a bad idea to sign Betts?

It was the perfect idea, and the one I espoused all summer.

You may want them to be two different arguments, but if you read actually follow this discussion, it all stems from this post by HockeyOutsiders

Manny Malhotra? Hasn’t this been discussed already? 700K, wasn’t signed until Sept. 23, so there is no argument that he wasn’t out there. Mario was saying for months to sign the guy. He’s got 21 pts and he’s less than 1/2 the cost of JVR.

So the trade off is 9 less pts for almost 1MM in cap room, which could have been used to keep Jones and have a legitmate caliber 3rd pairing of D men.

Its pretty clear the conversation is about Malhotra and Jones replacing JVR on the roster long before you jumped in and tried to pretend Malholtra isn’t part of the equation so you could rig the numbers.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

How is Malhotra part of a discussion on what the tradeoff was? The team had JVR/Jones/Syvret/Pyorala all under contract. The tradeoff was lose Jones, keep the other three.

If you’re speaking purely in “If Mario was GM” world, fine. Your tradeoff would have been better. But in the real world where the team chose JVR/Syvret/Pyorala for Jones, the team comes out far ahead.

Again, if this is simply you trying to show how right you were because you wanted Malhotra, congratulations. I would have liked him too, but the conversation actually started with:

He should have sent JVR down, kept Randy here and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. JVR would be tearing it up on the Phantoms, getting tons of ice time and the Flyers would have filled his role easily. I’m not a JVR hater, I love the kid, but that’s really the facts as they stand.

Notice how there is no mention of Malhotra? Who’s the one “rigging” the numbers? The issue was keeping Randy here, which meant this team loses JVR/Syvret/Pyorala. Not keeping Jones here and signing some guy way back before Jones was sent down.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, read what HockeyOutsiders posted, which this entire discussion follows. The fucking post begins with this sentence: “Manny Malhotra”. How in the world is Manny Malholtra not part of the conversation?

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

but you’re missing the bigger picture and my point (which argues Mario’s point that he’s been harping on for a long time). I was asked who the Flyers could have signed that would have made JVR dispensible. I think it’s pretty clear that if Homer had of signed Maholtra, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Besides, even if you pretend that Malhotra isn’t part of the conversation, JVR/Pyorala/Syvret for Jones is still incomplete, since Holmgren has come out and finally admitted that the real equation is:

JVR/Pyoralla/Syvret/Whoever Holmgren acquires to play D in the next month

for

Jones/Whatever Holmgren gives up for that replacement player.

And that equation is a no-brainer.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think replacing JVR with Malhotra would help us in the scoring winger department as the initial question was posed

by chrislanci on Jan 27, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Please read the entire thread. I know it’s confusing to follow, but I think you’ll get it.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I simply threw out Sim’s name because he fits the bill for some “dime a dozen” third line winger. I’m sure with a little research, I could come up with half a dozen other guys that also would have worked, made $1MM or less a year, were available in the off-season and wouldn’t have forced us to play with an AHL caliber 3rd pairing on D and would have produced a team that was either marginally better than the one on the ice now or as is my contention, would have produced an infinitely better team that’s on the ice now.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

would have produced an infinitely better team that’s on the ice now.

You may be able to convince me that they would’ve been exponentially better.

But I don’t think I can get on board the “infinite” train…

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I get paid for exaggerations, so cut me some slack.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You too?

/rimshot

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

here you go.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 27, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

True, no argument he was out there, but I also believe the reason he went for so little is he over-valued himself at the start. I don’t remember his original asking price, but it was more then 700K. And he kinda had to take that offer because of how close it was to the season.

by Pondhockey on Jan 27, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

And what I repeatedly said was to offer him $1mil. He obviously would’ve taken that offer at the beginning of camp.

And the Flyers would have a guy who wins 62% of his faceoffs which means they don’t need to lean on Richards and Carter so much everytime there’s a whistle.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Did we have that money at the start of training camp to offer him?

by Pondhockey on Jan 27, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, absolutely.

And the proof is the fact that they’re paying $1.3m in cap space for Randy Jones.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me clarify because I didn’t explain how that answers your question.

The way the roster would’ve been different would be to add Jones ($2.75m) and Malhotra ($1m), subtract Syvret ($.6m) and JVR ($1.6m). It would’ve cost $1.5m more against the cap than the Flyers actually were spending on opening night.

However, two weeks later they took a $1.3m cap hit for Jones on top of their roster, anyway. So they definitely could’ve afforded to keep Jones and sign Malhotra for $1m.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I know Jones is apparently holding his own this year (don’t watch a lot of Kings games). But you can’t honestly tell me you wanted to keep Jones at the beginning of this season.

by Pondhockey on Jan 27, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, he most certainly did.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 27, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, because Jones was playing on one leg last season and admitted as much. The quote he gave to some beat writer was “every time I skated it felt like a knife stabbing into my hip”. Then he had surgery on that hip again in June and everything was better.

by MarioD on Jan 27, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Not only are they lacking defensive depth, but there’s zero immediate depth in any area except for Kalinski and Ross (we’ve already discussed ad nauseum how they’re already too deep down the middle to start with, so…). Or, rather, there’s no-one the organization’s willing to trust, anyway. And no draft pick until the third round. Job well done, Homer. At least we all have Joacim Eriksson to look forward to in a few years, hockey gods willing.

by Ben Feldman on Jan 25, 2010 10:59 PM EST reply actions  

Damnit, this is fricken depressing. When do pitchers and catchers report?

"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko

by doubleh on Jan 25, 2010 11:02 PM EST reply actions  

23 days.

Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon

by jello44 on Jan 25, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Bryce Salvador, Mark Fraser
Brooks Orpik, Jay McKee
Wade Redden, Matt Gilroy
Freddy Meier, Bruno Gervais
Johnny Boychuk, Mark Stuart
Tony Lydman, Steve Montador
Hal Gill, Paul Mara
Filip Kuba, Alexandre Picarde
Anssi Salmela, Boris Valabek
Bryan Allen, Dmitri Kulikov
Matt Walker, Matt Smaby
Tyler Sloan, John Erskine
Danny Syrvet, Milk Man/Riddler/???/New player via trade

See what I’m getting at Geoff?

TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT

by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jan 26, 2010 1:11 AM EST reply actions  

I do, but those teams have guys capable of stepping in beyond them. That was my point. I liked the Parent/Syvret pairing to start the year and I’d take them over all those except Pittsburgh’s pairing (Eaton/McKee) and Washington’s actual third pairing (Morrisson/Pothier/Erskine). But with both of them out, Bartulis/OKT isn’t cutting it and there’s nobody behind them.

Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.

by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 26, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

this has no statistics behind it, but the 3rd pairing doesn’t affect the overall product as much as we think it does. I firmly believe If Emery played better and Coburn wasn’t having a down year, we wouldn’t be in the situation that were in. Alas, the chips have fell this way, and we must work with the hand we’re dealt

TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT

by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jan 26, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

This unfortunately is more of a pressing issue than I wanted to admit. I also was looking forward to another year under Parent’s belt but it is apparent he might not be worth the time and wait. Man I was trying to enjoy my coffee this morning, now I want to throw up knowing there is yet another area on this team that needs attention. The only chip this team has is Carter and with him you need to pick up a top four winger and a better than average defensemen. I am not sure this can happen.

by MJDII on Jan 26, 2010 7:14 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

The question really becomes – Do you roll two main defensive pairings, or three? If you remember (and no, I don’t have stats to back it up) before Parent went down, he and Barty were logging decent minutes and taking weight off the ‘top-four’. With the injury to Parent, Barty’s numbers have fallen considerably, as has his ice-time. I think Lavvy agrees with me that Bartulis isn’t as bad as his recent stats show – he’s still getting more ice time than OKT. So, there’s a lot to be said for maintaining defensive pairings, but if you split some up you could easily have one top pairing, and then two serviceable ones even with the current injuries. Let’s say, Pronger/Coburn as your top, then Timonen/OKT and Carle/Bartulis? In each secondary pairing, you have a responsible upper-zone and lower-zone ability, a playmaker, and a physical presence. Besides, Syvret can get back into the lineup soon enough, right???

by penguinsfan on Jan 26, 2010 9:37 AM EST reply actions  

Before Parent went down, the pairings were Pronger/Carle, Timmo/Parent, Coburn/Bartulis.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with the idea of having at least one somewhat experienced defenseman on each pair. Whenever that third pair has been on the ice recently it seems like the Flyers are scambling for their lives.

When you look at those pairings, it might make more sense to replace Parent’s slot with a newcomer as opposed to moving up Coburn and putting the 2 worst players together. Maybe it’s because Coburn has had past success with Kimmo and they’re trying to build his confidence… because when Coburn’s bad, he’s pretty much as bad as any of these other borderline NHL players.

I think Bartulis can be a serviceable 6th D man with someone better than OKT/Syvret.

I also think that Jones would easily be the 4th or 5th best D on this team…. if he was on it.

by Doug609 on Jan 26, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel the same way. Put a steady, if unspectacular, defensive defenseman with Bart and you’ve got yourself a 3rd pair.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Bartulis

Oskars was doing pretty well for a while there. He’d be fine on the third pair if he had someone to play with him there.

The pairings before Parent went down were actually working out quite nicely. I’ve been a fan of the Timonen/Parent pairing for a little while now. Shame it likely won’t amount to much.

Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?

by mikefive on Jan 26, 2010 10:46 AM EST reply actions  

are we assuming parent makes it back into the lineurp for the last 10 games or so?

Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance

by psudrozz on Jan 26, 2010 10:59 AM EST reply actions  

Six weeks from yesterday is March 8th, an off day for the Flyers, who will have 18 games remaining at that point.

by MarioD on Jan 26, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

good to know.

are we assuming parent makes it back into the lineurp for the last 10 18 games or so?

Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance

by psudrozz on Jan 26, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

You know what really stinks about the Jones thing… I think he’d be a really good fit in Lavvy’s system. :(

by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 26, 2010 3:51 PM EST reply actions  

the question is

What is more important is it to have a really good top to pairs and below average 3rd pairing or is it more important to have 3 average to above average pairs. The latter did not gets us past the Pens in the playoffs. When the playoffs start the top pairings will get more and more time and 3rd pairing will get less and less. The bottom line is DEFENSE is not what is hurting us this year. No matter who your last pairing is you are not going to get a shutout every game. When we score we win and to give up more scoring we a 3rd pairing D-Man who might what drop our team GAA down at best another 0.200 goals is not worth. Score 3 and win if Coburn would just play better this team would be fine. Also fixing that 3rd pairing is a lot easier to do at the deadline than adding a scoring winger to the mix.

by chrislanci on Jan 27, 2010 11:05 AM EST reply actions  

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