Sunday Morning Madness: Leafs Acquire Phaneuf, Giguere
Brian Burke must not have liked his team. In a wild Sunday morning where at least nine players have been sent to new homes, Dion Phaneuf is now a Maple Leaf. Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers and Ian White are all headed to Calgary, who the Flyers will play tomorrow night.
The Anaheim Ducks have also traded Jean-Sebastien Giguere and a first-round pick to Toronto for goaltender Vesa Toskala and Jason Blake.
7 months ago
Travis Hughes
142 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
Hey, if Burkie is taking on that much Salary, maybe we can send him Hartnell.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
How did they get a 1st with Giggy? Toskala is garbage, I guess it had to be a salary dump right?
How are they affording all of these players with the cap situation?
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 31, 2010 12:46 PM EST reply actions
Dreger says Giguere for Toskala and Blake is final.
Listening to 640 Toronto right now is hilarious. The last caller just said he “guarantees” the Leafs will win the Cup this year. At least the hosts are sane.
From NHL.com
The complete deal was Phaneuf, right wing Fredrik Sjostrom and prospect Keith Aulie to Toronto for forwards Niklas Hagman, Matt Stajan, Jamal Mayers and defenseman Ian White.
The other deal is J.S Giggy and a possible first rounder or prospect to Toronto for Toskala and Blake.
Looking at the cap numbers, the Leafs took on…Sjostrom is $750,000, Aulie is $733,333(2 way) and Phaneuf is $6,500,000.
Total: $ 7,983,333
The Flames took on…Hagman is $3,000,000, Stajan is $1,750,000, Mayers is $1,333,333 and White $850,000.
Total: $ 6,933,333
So all in all the Leafs added $1,050,000…though its probably less if they send Aulie to the AHL as I suspect they will, then you are down to them only adding $ 316,667.
Now the other deal…
The Ducks are taking on $4,000,000 from Blake and $ 4,000,000 from Toskala for a total of $8,000,000.
The Leafs are taking on $ 6,000,000 for J.S Giggy. No idea who the prospect is, so I will just end it there.
So in the end after all of this the Leafs added $1,050,000 in the first deal but saved $2,000,000 in the second deal. So all in all the Leafs actually saved $950,000. this year.
No idea what the situation is next year as I really am too lazy to look into contract lengths past this season.
So when Sutter was in Philly scouting the Flyers ...
… he may have been trying to get Homer to bite on a Phaneuf trade. Too many opposition GMs have been showing up lately at the Wachovia Center. I wonder what’s brewing for the Orange-and-Black?
Clarke was reportedly in Anaheim watching the Ducks yesterday, I believe. Who knows if he was scouting Giguere or someone else though.
And before anybody thinks Bobby Ryan, they’ve said that he’s “unequivocally” not being traded.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Jan 31, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
So they god a Goalie who has only been average for the past two years and the most overrated defenseman in the world. only a trade Toronto would make, but Im glad the Phaneuf to Philly trade wont happen.
"NO HONOR"
Same
Phaneuf hasn’t been good in a couple years, he is very over rated. I didn’t want Giggy either. Everybody can complain about Rayzor, but he inexplicably keeps pucks out of the net.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Jan 31, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Got a goalie***
ugggggg, I really hate auto correct, f-ing blackberry and its canadian makers.
"NO HONOR"
I think this is going to work out fantastically for the Leafs. And for better or worse I like a guy who has the balls to throw his chips on the table. The Leafs are going absolutely nowhere fast and if these trades don’t work out, well shit that puts them in the same spot they are in right now anyway. Giguere is a petigree goaltender that needs to start and get his confidence back and he has the skills to do just that. This gives Gustavsson another year of honing his skills so they can either decide he is the future and wave good bye to Giguere or vice versa. Giguere is only 32 and if healthy could easily play 5 more years. Phaneuf is a 2-time all-star defenseman and needed a change of scenery and is still young enough to take this chance on. It is a ballsy move by Burke and quite frankly I like it and last I checked he was wearing one of them fancy Stanley Cup rings for actually building a winning franchise so until it fails miserably at least he is going down with the guns blazing. And we are still stuck in no man’s land led by a guy who led the NHL in penalty minutes, Whoa-Ho!
And now the Rangers may be trading Kotalik and either Higgins or Gilroy for Olli Jokinen. Olli Jokinen!
And Paul Holmgren is still sitting on the phone. Awesome. Because this franchise doesn’t have any needs to address, lets wait till all the dust settles and sign another castoff.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Dion Phaneuf, nor do I want Olli Jokinen. Would I have liked Giguere? You bet, but clearly his trade was in the making for a long time (it’s not like Bob Murray randomly woke up the other day and decided to give Hiller an extension).
by Ben Feldman on Jan 31, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly what Mario is saying, if it was in the works for a while why isn’t our GM extraordinaire the one working these deals? He still isn’t convinced there are any problems, hell they are at the top of the league in penalties so it can’t be that bad, right?
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want any of those players except Giguerre (even though thats not my first preference).
But these teams are making their deals and taking themselves off the market. Maybe Sutter could’ve been persuaded to trade Robin Regehr instead? But now he’s most likely done dealing, as is Anaheim. (Toronto probably isn’t.)
I agree those players aren’t what we needed, but you are also right this is the trade deadline and our GM is obviously on the sidelines. There were scores of scouts at all the Flyers games earlier this year and it yielded not one move. That is preposterous.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not one to necessarily defend Homer, but we’re still two weeks from the roster freeze, as MarioD noted. Four teams have made trades now? So does that mean the other 26 GMs are without a doubt sitting on the sidelines? All this came out of pretty much nowhere, and Sutter, Burke, Murray and Sather didn’t just hop on a conference call last night to plan this all out. If in two weeks, there’s all kinds of other movement and Homer’s not involved at all, then we can bash him.
by Ben Feldman on Jan 31, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Oh trust me, based solely on past performance we can bash him. I only care about the Flyers and I want my team on the forefront of league business. I am really serious that this organization really hasn’t even evaluated where this team legitimately is and what they legitimately need to do if they aren’t on the forefront of roster moves.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
All this came out of pretty much nowhere, and Sutter, Burke, Murray and Sather didn’t just hop on a conference call last night to plan this all out
It either came out of nowhere or it was weeks in the planning, which is it?
I say there is no way that Giguere and Phaneuf were moved without feeling out other offers first.
Poor phrasing. It came out of nowhere to us. Yeah, there were rumors about Phaneuf wanting out of Calgary, but Sutter said he wasn’t trading him, and besides, Toronto’s just about the last place I would have expected him to go to. So, in other words, Homer could be exploring possible trades (I’m not saying he is; he probably isn’t) and it’s not like we would know.
by Ben Feldman on Jan 31, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Now I understand. And that’s fair to say Holmgren just hasn’t shown us what he’s doing. But then why waste time on junk like Kraijcek when he’s in the midst of actually getting talent?
Whether or not Holmgren actually does anything good or meaningful is yet to be seen, but NHL.com is reporting that he isn’t really on the sidelines:
Who’s buying, who’s selling at trade deadline
As NHL.com’s John McGourty reported Saturday from Philadelphia, NHL general managers were stacked up like planes circling the airport to speak with Flyers GM Paul Holmgren.
Philadelphia Flyers — The Flyers seem to have righted their ship after the slow start and always seem to be a favored destination in the rumor mills, but may not have the cap space to make a big splash. Still, lots of GMs are talking to Paul Holmgren.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jan 31, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
And they have been circling this team for months, but we have been waiting for the Lightning’s 9th defenseman to drop free for the pickins’.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
When they were circling earlier, they were offering things like Mike Smith for Claude Giroux or JVR. Boy am I mad Homer didn’t jump all over that!
by Ben Feldman on Jan 31, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
And of course that is ludicrous, but we haven’t heard about any legitimate counters, have we? There was a lot of talk about Halak too, but it went no further in the rumor mills. I don’t know he isn’t wheeling and dealing but it sure doesn’t sound like it. We should be beating the other teams doors down we are the ones that are struggling to stay in the race.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
I was hearing Carter for Halak.
Some think too much, then come too soon
I just curse the sun, so I can howl at the moon
Yeah and it should be Carter, Emery for Halak and Plachenik or Kostitsyn. that would help out a little bit.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
Carter for Halak and Kostitsyn would be a great deal. The Flyers get two RFAs back in return for Carter and his RFA status. And they gain $4m in cap space this season.
Montreal can’t afford that, though, let alone Emery.
I’m not sure whether they could afford it even after they buy out laraque’s contract (no idea what they’re waiting for).
Seems Gainey is so mad he is just sticking it to him. And yeah that is a bit much to ask but we aren’t even hearing of counteroffers. They could probably swing Plechanik (UFA) and throw around a Hal Gill or something. This is all chit chat but we are on the same page though, WHERE IS THE DAMN URGENCY ON THE PART OF OUR TEAM!
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
If this team is still (in my opinion, mistakenly) in “win now” mode, as they were seven months ago, then they should continue selling the farm to do so.
If they’re willing to acknowledge the real state of the franchise, they should’ve been selling cap space to the Flames like the Rangers just did.
Yeah, 5,250,000 worth of cap space for two guys not in the mix of their core players.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
No, they bought themselves $3m in cap space for the next two seasons.
Jokinen ($5.2) and Higgins ($2.2) both go UFA at the end of the season so they wash out of the equation.
Right, forgot about the Higgins side of the equation. And cap space as an end result in the market we are dealing still has to be considered a stragedy.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 31, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
If this team is still (in my opinion, mistakenly) in "win now" mode, as they were seven months ago, then they should continue selling the farm to do so.
Well, maybe that’s just it. Maybe the team is no longer in “win now” mode. Maybe Homer is only getting offers for players he doesn’t wish to part with, like JVR or Giroux. And quite frankly, if that’s the case I’d much rather stand pat and do nothing until the offseason.
Would I like the Flyers to have a shot at the Cup? Absolutely. Do I want them to part with a JVR or Giroux just to rent some guy? Absolutely not.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Which is what I addressed in the second half of my post:
If they’re willing to acknowledge the real state of the franchise, they should’ve been selling cap space to the Flames like the Rangers just did.
The Flyers are in a terrible position right now. They suck in the present and are only going to get worse in the future.
They need to make moves to improve their franchise in either the present or the future. What they’ve been doing for the three months that this has been evident, sitting pat, is the only thing they shouldn’t be doing.
The Flyers are in a terrible position right now. They suck in the present and are only going to get worse in the future.
I agree that they suck in the present, but how do you measure the future? How can you predict how guys like Giroux, JVR, Maroon, Marshall, Bourdon, Riopel, and Ericsson will turn out?
The Rangers suck now – and have been mediocre at best for several years – because they cannot draft to save their lives. Even in the salary cap era they “improve” the team through free agency every off-season.
Everything depends on what the Flyers do this off-season. If they can make some moves which will make the team competitive while still holding onto their developing talent, then the future is not so bleak.
However, I will agree that the IMMEDIATE future is not so good. If they hold onto their developing talent, and if that talent pans out, they could be a very good team in a couple of years. But the rest of this season and all of the next will not be anything to write home about.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
That’s easy.
Do you realize the Flyers don’t have a 1st or 2nd round draft choice from the 2008, 2009, or 2010 drafts?
Thats how we know the future is bad. This isn’t a two year issue. This is a three year black hole, that will hit from 2010-11 through 2012-13.
Well, they may deal for some draft picks at least. You never know.
Holmgren really does do some stuff out of the blue. Were any of us expecting Upshall for Carcillo?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
You are being facetious right? That is exactly the kind of move killing this team right now. I think what Mario is saying and he said it well so I am only adding to it. Why couldn’t the Flyers have sent Calgary a couple mediocre forwards for Joke-inen. If for no other reason than unloading all of the contracts at the end of the year.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 7:12 AM EST up reply actions
But during those seasons some of our prospects may develop into quality NHLers who keep the team headed in the right direction.
I understand what you’re saying, but in the end it’s impossible to predict something like this. Sorry.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Gold may turn into crap. But crap won’t turn into gold.
I really think you’re underestimating this, so let’s look at where the Flyers’ roster was drafted.
Pronger (#2 1st)
Coburn (#8 1st)
Parent (#18 1st)
Krajicek (#24 1st)
Carle (#47 2nd)
-
OKT (#65 3rd)
Syvret (#81 3rd)
Bartulis (#91 3rd)
Timmonen (#250 10th)
-
-
JVR (#2 1st)
Hartnell (#6 1st)
Carter (#11 1st)
Gagne (#22 1st)
Giroux (#22 1st)
Richards (#24 1st)
Briere (#24 1st)
Betts (#33 2nd)
-
Asham (#71 3rd)
Carcillo (#73 3rd)
Laperriere (#158 7th)
Powe (FA)
Cote (FA)
-
-
Boucher (#22 1st)
Emery (#99 4th)
That’s 24 players who’ve spent significant time on the roster this year. 14 of them were drafted in the first two rounds. A breakdown of the 20 man lineup (so take out Cote, OKT, Syvret, and Bartulis):
12 1st round picks
2 2nd round picks
2 3rd round picks
1 4th round pick
1 7th round pick
1 10th round pick
1 free agent
Every skilled player on the roster except for Kimmo Timmonen was drafted in the first two rounds.
The Asham/Carcillo/Laperriere’s of the world can always be signed as free agents for cheap. The only way you add players like Gagne, Giroux, Carle, et al is by giving up a lot of value or drafting. And you don’t have value to give up unless you were drafting.
The future of this team is a precipitous fall.
Was just looking at the draft tracker
2010 Flyers > LA to LA for Patrik Hersley & Ned Lukacevic [Jul 08]
Who are these guys? I never even heard of this trade
I really think you’re underestimating this, so let’s look at where the Flyers’ roster was drafted.
Pronger (#2 1st)
Coburn (#8 1st)
Parent (#18 1st)
Krajicek (#24 1st)
Carle (#47 2nd)
-
OKT (#65 3rd)
Syvret (#81 3rd)
Bartulis (#91 3rd)
Timmonen (#250 10th)
-
-
JVR (#2 1st)
Hartnell (#6 1st)
Carter (#11 1st)
Gagne (#22 1st)
Giroux (#22 1st)
Richards (#24 1st)
Briere (#24 1st)
Betts (#33 2nd)
-
Asham (#71 3rd)
Carcillo (#73 3rd)
Laperriere (#158 7th)
Powe (FA)
Cote (FA)
-
-
Boucher (#22 1st)
Emery (#99 4th)
And the Flyers only drafted 7 of those 19 drafted players. Go through every team and tell me they don’t have a similar percentage of 1st and 2nd round players on their roster. The question is, how did those players get on that team’s roster? Because the Flyers traded for those first round picks and signed those first round picks. That can happen too you know. Like Krajicek.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
Flyers draft picks since 2000, rounds 1-3:
2000 – Justin Williams (1, 28)
2000 – Alexander Drozdetsky (3, 94)
2001 – Jeff Woywitka (1, 27)
2001 – Patrick Sharp (3, 95)
2002 – Joni Pitkanen (1, 4)
2003 – Jeff Carter (1, 11)
2003 – Mike Richards (1, 24)
2003 – Colin Fraser (3, 69)
2003 – Stefan Ruzicka (3, 81)
2003 – Alexandre Picard (3, 85)
2003 – Ryan Potulny (3, 87)
2003 – Rick Kozak (3, 95)
2004 – Rob Bellamy (3, 92)
2005 – Steve Downie (1, 29)
2005 – Oskars Bartulis (3, 91)
2006 – Claude Giroux (1, 22)
2006 – Andreas Nodl (2, 39)
2006 – Michael Ratchuk (2, 42)
2006 – Denis Bodrov (2, 55)
2006 – Jonathan Matsumoto (3, 79)
2007 – James van Riemsdyk (1, 2)
2007 – Kevin Marshall (2, 41)
2007 – Garrett Klotz (3, 66)
2008 – Luca Sbisa (1, 19)
2008 – Marc-Andre Bourdon (3, 67)
2008 – Jacob DeSerres (3, 84)
Only 5 players drafted in the first three rounds since 2000 are still on the Flyers roster.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
And, high rounds don’t have the only good players:
Detroit
Pavel Datsyuk (6, 171)
Kris Draper (3, 62)
Valteri Filppula (3, 95)
Johan Franzen (3, 97)
Darren Helm (5, 132)
Tomas Holmstrom (10, 257)
Ville Leino (undrafted)
Kirk Maltby (3, 65)
Brad May (1, 14)
Drew Miller (6, 186)
Henrik Zetterberg (7, 210)
Todd Bertuzzi (1, 23)
Daniel Cleary (1, 13)
Patrick Eaves (1, 29)
Jason Williams (undrafted)
Jonathan Ericsson (9, 291)
Niklas Kronwall (1, 29)
Brett Lebda (undrafted)
Nicklas Lidstrom (3, 53)
Andreas Lilja (2, 54)
Derek Meech (7, 229)
Brian Rafalski (undrafted)
Brad Stuart (1, 3)
Jimmy Howard (2, 64)
Chris Osgood (3, 54)
Players by round selected:
1st: 6
2nd: 2
3rd: 6
4th: 0
5th: 1
6th: 2
7th or lower: 4
undrafted: 4
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Detroit is a beast at drafting. We could only be so lucky.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
And when those players were traded away, they were exchanged for other high draft choices or players who had been high draft choices.
As I stated, without any assets from the top two rounds, the Flyers can’t trade for other players of value. They can’t sign anyone who’s an RFA until the summer of 2011 because they don’t have their picks.
The only worthwhile assets the Flyers have right now are on the NHL roster. No one in the league is going to trade a proven player for the two years away prospects they have in the AHL or for draft picks in 2012.
Wait...
Gold may turn into crap. But crap won’t turn into gold.
I don’t get what you mean by this. I am talking about the Flyers’ prospects already on the team (Giroux, JVR, Bartulis) or in the system/plans for the future (Maroon, Matsumoto, Marshall, Bourdon, Riopel, Ericsson).
I am not talking about the rest of the current team as it stands now. If that’s what you mean by “crap won’t turn into gold” then fine. You can’t be talking about our prospects though.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Maybe you should look at the Detroit Red Wings.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Or maybe you should look at the Philadelphia Flyers instead of dreaming.
Holmgren has been running this team’s draft for over a decade. It’s pretty clear how he will draft.
Even the gold standard of the Red Wings has half of their team from the top three rounds.
Well, then your statement should have been:
I mean 1st round picks go bust. [Philadelphia Flyers] 4th round picks don’t turn into all stars.
Because what you said was just factually inaccurate.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Detroit is the exception not the rule and the Flyers are not the Red Wings.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
This is true. Hence, “Detroit is a beast at drafting. We could only be so lucky.”
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
No. If you want to use the most extreme example to disprove the obviously general rule:
“I mean 1st round picks go bust. 4th round picks don’t turn into all stars, excerpt for the Red Wings’ once every few years.”
2009 All-Stars drafted in the 4th round or later:
Marc Savard
Pavel Datsyuk
Milan Hejduk
Martin St. Louis
Brian Campbell
Andrei Markov
Dan Boyle
Tomas Kaberle
Mark Streit
Stephane Robidas.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
“4th round picks don’t turn into all stars, excerpt for the Red Wings’ once every few years.”
There’s 9 non-Red Wings who were all-stars last year.
My point is that 4th round picks DO turn into all-stars, as evidenced by there being NINE of them just last year.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
10 years worth of drafts (underestimate) x 30 selections.
That’s 9/300 4th round picks that turned into all stars.
Do you realize how stupid your argument is yet?
Oh, so now it’s 9/300? Did you go through and do the math? Of course not. Because a lot of those players were in multiple all-star games, making that equation completely inaccurate.
But you don’t care.
How far will you go to defend “4th round picks don’t become all-stars”?
- Add exception for Red Wings
- Add exception for “every few years”
- Allow up to 21% as not all-stars
- Expound to 300 without actually doing math
What’s next?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Because a lot of those players were in multiple all-star games, making that equation completely inaccurate.
This is just wrong. Being in multiple all star games doesn’t turn you into multiple people.
Just stop already. You’re not even making a point, you’re just contradicting what I say, regardless of the fact that you agreed with it earlier. Just stop.
“10 years worth of drafts (underestimate) x 30 selections.
That’s 9/300 4th round picks that turned into all stars."
9/300 = 0.03
There are 3 rounds ahead of that round. Assuming every other All-Star came from those rounds:
37/900 = 0.04
The odds aren’t that much better of drawing an All-Star in the first three rounds opposed to round 4. There was a grand total of 1 more top-three pick than there “should” be from a perfectly flat distribution.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
2009 NHL All-Star game:
42 players
27 round 1
1 round 2 (Shea Weber)
2 round 3 (Zdeno Chara, Sheldon Souray)
2 round 4 (Marc Savard, Milan Hejduk)
2 round 6 (Andrei Markov, Brian Campbell)
2 round 7 (Henrik Lundqvist, Stephane Robidas)
1 round 8 (Tomas Kaberle)
2 round 9 (Tim Thomas, Mark Streit)
3 undrafted (Martin St. Louis, Niklas Backstrom, Dan Boyle)
Most forwards came from the first round. Most defensive players came from the lower rounds.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Thats interesting, positionally. I suppose its because dmen develop slowly, so forwards are closer to fully developed at draft time but dmen are still five years away.
Same for Lundquist, who was drafted at 18 but didn’t come to the NHL until he was 23.
That still came to:
64% 1st round picks
2% second round
5% 3rd round
29% 4th through UFA
And, come to think of it, this also supports the idea that the Flyers won’t be able to rely on the dmen prospects they have right now, because the longer development time meas they won’t be known to be valuable for at least one more calendar year.
That’s what I was saying. The defensive prospects will probably need one more season in the minors before they’re ready to contribute at the major-league level.
Where you and I disagree is timing. We both seem to be saying that our defensive prospects need another year of AHL seasoning, but earlier you said that we’re screwed for the next 3-4 seasons at least. Not sure if I agree with that.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
They need the 2010-11 season in the AHL.
Then, at best, they need their rookie NHL year. They will be 3rd pair dmen at best in 2011-12 as they make the jump to the NHL.
We’re only talking here about two players, right? marshall and bourdon. So let’s just say they both become solid 1st pair players for the 2012-13 (certainly not the likely scenario).
That’s still only two players who become valuable assets in the next three seasons.
If the Flyers keep their 2011 draft choice, and they take a forward, maybe he’ll be ready in time for the 2012-13 season, too. Thats the best case scenario, and pretty unlikely. JVR is the only player they’ve developed in quite some time who take the better part of two seasons after the draft to reach the NHL (and that was probably the wrong choice, anyway).
So the Flyers have no players ready to be good NHL players next (2010-11) season and the don’t have a selection until the 3rd round.
They have no players who will be good NHL players in 2011-12, they have a 1st and 3rd round selection in the 2011 draft.
In 2012-13, ideally Marshall and Bourdon are ready to be quality NHL players, and its possibly their 2011 1st round pick could be ready for the NHL at that time.
So what I said was
This is a three year black hole, that will hit from 2010-11 through 2012-13.
All three (Bourdon, Marshall, the 2011 1st) will have to develop ahead of the norm in order for that not to be an incorrect assessment.
I think, in part, the split is because it’s easier to evaluate forward talent, particularly for All-Star forwards, who are expected to be great offensive players. Two-way forwards tend to be less represented in the ASG, and the “pure scorers” are easy to pick out. Defensemen and goalies are far less predictable, and there’s a double effect – they’re picked later because they’re not predictable, and late-round acquisitions are more likely to turn into star players with some polishing. A 9th-round forward probably doesn’t have much upside. A 9th-round defenseman might be someone who’s a lockdown defender that got stuck on the third line in Juniors because his coach wanted offensive defensemen boosting his forwards.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
The future of this team is a precipitous fall.
I’ll agree with that if:
- Holmgren sits on his hands this summer and does nothing.
- The Flyers do not get a new capologist.
Improvements need to be made, yes. But if the only offers Homer gets are for JVR and Giroux then I don’t want him trading anyone. Then the future of this team would REALLY be in trouble.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Look at all the contenders making trades. Calgary is the only team in the playoff hunt making moves and they are in a worst spot than us, Anaheim, Toronto, and NYR most likely out of it. I love how it is assumed that nothing will get done following the olympics. It is not like Blackberrys are going to be disable just because the games are in Canada. Also why in the world would you want to trade Carter and Emery for Kotizyn and Halak. Maybe Halak is marginally better than Emery but Kotizyn has 25 points and is a barely a 20 goal scorer. Carter is our current leading scoring forward, Kotizyn is a 3rd line guy at best. When we make trades people bitch and we don’t make trades people bitch when we lose people bitch for christ sakes people even bitch when we win. I much rather stay pat like the Phillies did all those trade deadlines and wait for the current YOUNG roster to season into championship form with a key off-season addition here and there to patch the holes.
I appreciate your optimism, but the Flyers core is signed through next year (Briere, Richards, Gagne, Carter, Hartnell, JVR, Laperriere, Giroux, Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Bartulis) so if that core isn’t cutting it, how much tweaking can you do with your 3rd and 4th lines and 3rd defensive pairing (and only $10 million to sign 10 or so players) to turn an inconsistent team into a consistent contender?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
It works on several levels. Please show me the evidence where Emery is untouchable and has proven he is ready to be a legitimate goaltender in the NHL. Halak (RFA) and Plechanik (UFA) are free agents so if they don’t work out filling the holes we have then we can get a lot of free space on the cap. We are not losing depth at center because we have 4 players trying to fill two holes. Having 5 million in cap space is a legitimate move. Kostityn might not be an option but he is better than a third liner he isn’t Hartnell he is a scorer.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Just throwing this out there
The addition of Phaneuf really makes Kaberle expendable again (it’s been rumored he’s being shopped forever).
Carter for Kaberle? ….again?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 11:22 AM EST reply actions
Hopefully not. Kaberle is not at all what he once was.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree. He’s been the ONLY consistent Leaf this season on a very bad team. He’s got a very friendly cap number for his talent level. I think he’s signed through next season and he’d make this defense solid.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Well, he’s being hidden in the offensive zone (60.2% zone start, highest among Leafs D-men), there are three Leafs Dmen with a higher qualcomp, four with a higher corsi qualcomp, and four with a lower GAON/60. He’s not nearly as bad as his minus-10 would appear, but he’s no longer a first-pairing guy – even in Toronto – and he might not even be a top-3 any more.
He’s certainly not bad – he is second on the team in Corsi, third in GFON/60, first in points – but he’s not what he used to be.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
He wouldn’t be a first pairing guy here either, but he’s got a very friendly cap number regardless of how you look at it.
Pronger-Carle
Timmo-Kaberle
Coburn-Bartilus (?)
The problem of course, is you lose the only guy on the first 2 lines that has actually put up points in the last month.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, certainly. Gagne for Kaberle, done. But to me, that’s two guys who are still capable but not what they once were. Carter is just too much, IMO.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
I’d be fine with trading Gagne as well. He’d take Blake’s role as overpaid, underperforming LW’er.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
But the Flyers need wingers as badly as defensive help. They can’t subtract Gagne. Carter is too much but it has to be something expendable.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
It’s actually a great deal if Holmgren could make it. He gets about 1MM on cap space, he doesn’t give up a guy that still has potential and he fills the need on the blue line with more than just a band-aid.
Let’s face it, Gagne in January had 1 goal and 7 assists. Everyone gets a bump, JVR goes to the 2nd line. Bring Kalinski in to play on the 4th line.
I bet the drop off isn’t great and Kaberle on the defense doesn’t make me cringe everytime the 3rd pairing is on the ice.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
i’m sure someone’s going to ruin my armchair GM’ing by pointing out Gagne has a NTC.
I think Kaberle’s got one too? I’m sure he’s waive it to get out of the hell-hole in TO though.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
I was operating on the assumption that was known. Good call pointing it out though.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
It’s actually a good trade for both sides (barring Gagne’s injury history), which means it will never happen.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
haha, exactly
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Not only Kalinski, but Pyorala could come in too. Or Nodl. If you want scoring, Stefan Legein could come up.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Oh Gagne has been on my bus list for three years now. But even as underperforming as he is he is still the #1 winger on this team.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
And that is why the line up is faulty. If we sent Carter we need a winger in return but I am not sure who that would be.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is you’re giving up Carter’s two 1st round picks as an RFA. He’s worth more than Kaberle for that reason alone.
What if you got picks from TO? Do they have any picks? Boston has their first rounder right?
Obviously, as Geoff pointed out, Gagne for Kaberle makes far more sense.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see why Burke would trade Kaberle for Gagne. He’s looking to improve the team in the future. What’s the benefit to Toronto?
They get a first line winger to play with Kessel. If he doesn’t pan out, he’s only got a year left on his contract. A healthy Gagne is a huge upgrade both offensively and defensively to anyone on their roster.
Burke also gets rid of Kaberle, who he’s been trying to run out of town forever.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t forget about Toronto’s logjam on the blueline: Phaneuf, Beauchemin, Komisarek, Kaberle, Schenn, Gunnarsson, and Finger. Obviously, Finger isn’t forcing anyone out, but he makes Kaberle expendable.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
But he’s not trying to win this season, and he’s taking on an extra $1m in salary.
I just don’t see it being in line with what he seems to be doing.
I don’t see the salary as an issue. He builds a legitimate first line, he can flip Gagne for picks next season, especially if Gagne regains his scoring touch. Also, if Gagne clicks with Kessel he can probably resign him for less money. (maybe). Who knows, it doesn’t matter much anyway, because it’s never going to happen.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t answer that question. Right now, NHLSCAP has the Maple Leafs $5m OVER the cap. So obviously some math needs to be sorted out by someone.
I was mystified by that also when I looked to see how that trade for Giguere shook out.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Boston has their first and second round picks. Both were part of the Kessel Run. Florida has their fourth round pick from the Van Ryn for McCabe deal. If Brad May re-signs with the Leafs, their sixth round pick goes to Anaheim. So, right now, Toronto only definitely has a 3rd, 5th, and 7th round selection.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Toronto’s first round pick in 2011 belongs to Boston (Kessel), and their third round pick belongs to Chicago as part of a deal involving only picks (Toronto traded the 2011 R3 pick and Calgary’s 2011 R2 pick for their own 2010 R2 pick that was part of the Kessel deal).
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
All those crazy stats don’t tell the tale of the Toronto Maple leafs that STINK. Kaberle is a really good Dman and would be a welcome addition to this team and would really play nicely next to Pronger.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
All those crazy stats don’t tell the tale of the Toronto Maple leafs that STINK.
That’s exactly the point: take the player out of the team context so it doesn’t cloud the view of him. Put players on the Penguins and Hurricanes on equal footing so the players on good teams aren’t overrated and the players on bad teams aren’t underrated.
On his own team, there are four defensemen giving up less goals, with three/four playing against tougher competition. The stats are meant so you don’t look at his minus-10 and say he sucks. That is largely a result of playing for Toronto. But the other stats aren’t – they’re relative to Toronto.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
I will be honest I glaze over when reading the GV stuff so I don’t understand it but it would seem any stats have to come from stats so as a guy who watches hockey I would swap Kaberle for Carle or Coburn and someone else.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Not a problem. I’m well aware a lot of people don’t care about that stuff. But I try to stick with really simple to understand stuff similar to OBP and K/9, while also treading into the GVT.
But basically, Kaberle for Carle is a rather sideways move while adding to the cap. Kaberle for Coburn adds to the cap, is probably a short-term upgrade, but Coburn has a nice draft pick attached to him when his contract is up.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Throw in a RossPowePyrola to make up for all they lost for Phaneuf.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Toronto would never go for that. They have d-men to spare with only Kessel up front. They need offense, not another defender.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
It gives them an extra year of contract, frees up cap space, and Carle is six years younger.
I don’t know if they’d do it or not, but that’s the appeal.
I think they are pretty happy with the backline. They need offense now.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
I think Burke is still rebuilding and would be willing to trade anyone on that team if he thought he was improving it in for the next couple years.
And Kaberle has been a thorn in their side for a couple of years now flaunting his NTC at them every trade deadline. If he could get him to approve just about any responsible deal he would do it just to get him out of town.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 1, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree to a certain extent, but after yesterday’s trades, all Burke has is Phil Kessel. Why not trade Kaberle while he’s still not worthless for someone to play with Phil? That makes the most sense to me, not swapping for more D-men.
Looking at the TO roster regarding cap numbers is hilarious. It looks like they have 3 forwards under contract for next year.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Because he’s looking for someone to pair with Kessel through the 2013-14 season, not just next year.
Maybe you’re right, but thats not how I read the situation.
I’m just throwing out hypotheticals. I’m not sure who Burke would get for Kaberle that he’ll be able to pair with Kessel long term. I’d be interested who you think may be available?
Maybe Kolvachuk?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
When in doubt: Kovalchuk!
Kaberle for Tomas Fleischman and Matt Bradley (there’s a Burke type player).
I may just update my Kolvachuk to Detroit story, haha.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at the TO roster regarding cap numbers is hilarious. It looks like they have 3 forwards under contract for next year.
Look further down the page, this is way more hilarious:
Burke certainly knows how to make things interesting anyway.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 1, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Rather than say this all the way on the right panel:
People in the Flyers system (outside of Marshall and Bourdon) that could be “good NHL players” in the “three-year blackhole”:
Jon Matsumoto, David Laliberte, Patrick Maroon, Stefan Legein, Andreas Nodl, Jon Kalinski, Joonas Lehtivuori.
Not that any of those will be top-6 forwards or top-3 defensemen, but both Nodl and Kalinski appear capable of being good defensive forwards. As already discussed, Nodl kills penalties well. Also, Kalinski is the only forward (outside of Lukas Kaspar) to have a positive plus/minus on a wretched Phantoms team. Both of those guys show a potential to be good NHL players, given a specific role.
Matsumoto, Laliberte, Maroon, and Legein all have some scoring ability and a distinct skill set that could easily translate to the NHL. Again, not that it will, but Moto was in the AHL All-Star game this year, Laliberte had a decent NHL-debut this year, Maroon has been progressing nicely ever since he was drafted, and Legein is a pure sniper. There are more than Krys Kolanos and Jared Ross type players in the organization.
Lehtivuori also is showing that he has potential to be an Oskars Bartulis at least.
Again, not that these players will be JVR, Carter, Richards, or Giroux, but there are a few guys who can be good NHL players.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
When I said “good nhl players” i meant top 3 lines, or top two pairings, so maybe a couple of those guys sneak into the bottom end?
But the big picture was about players or draft picks who are valuable enough to be the trading pieces to acquire a top six forward, starting goalie, or top three dman.
I think we can agree that right now, Matsumoto, Maroon, and a 3rd round 2010 pick wasn’t going to be enough (cap issues aside) to acquire JS Giguere (as an example).
What I’m saying is that they’re entering this pit where the only two ways they can acquire talented players are:
1) Trading talented players currently on the roster away
2) Signing them as UFAs, which is basically always going to require over-paying for their services (see: Briere, Danny).
Part of that’s going to depend on moves over the next couple years.There will obviously be moves made, since in 12-13 (the end of the three-year period), we only have six players signed.
Expiring this year: Carcillo (RFA), Asham (UFA), Betts (UFA), Powe (RFA), Laliberte (RFA), Ross (UFA), Rathje (no cap hit, but comes off the payroll), Coburn (RFA), Parent (RFA), Tollefson (RFA), Syvret (RFA), Krajicek (???), Emery (UFA), Leighton (UFA), Backlund (UFA).
Obviously, we need a goalie (we only have Boucher), a defenseman (we have five left), and lower line forwards (we have 9, but that includes Cote). Nodl and Kalinski should get try-outs with the organization, since 10-11 is their last year under contract.
Expiring after 2010-11: Gagne (UFA), Carter (RFA), Giroux (RFA), Cote (UFA), Nodl (RFA), Kalinski (RFA), Boucher (UFA)
Gags and Carter are 10.25 million combined. Giroux should be re-signed barring something bizarre happening. Cote can walk. Nodl and Kalinski need to prove they’re worth signing.
Expiring after 2011-12: van Riemsdyk (RFA), Laperriere (UFA), Carle (UFA), Bourdon (RFA)
Relatively quiet, for now. Lappy will probably retire, since he’ll be 37. Unless Carle either has the lightbulb pop on or is willing to take a pay cut, he should be allowed to walk.
Players signed through the “black hole”: Briere, Richards, Hartnell, Timonen, Pronger, Bartulis.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Something to say? Choose one of these options to log in.
On Facebook? Use Connect to join SB Nation. Share insights with fans and friends.- » Create a new SB Nation account
- » Already registered with SB Nation? Log in!
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Broad Street Hockey
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Atlantic Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
82 | 48 | 27 | 7 | 103 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
82 | 47 | 28 | 7 | 101 |
|
Philadelphia
|
82 | 41 | 35 | 6 | 88 |
|
New York Rangers
|
82 | 38 | 33 | 11 | 87 |
|
New York Islanders
|
82 | 34 | 37 | 11 | 79 |
(updated 4.12.2010 at 9:21 AM EDT)
Flyers Schedule
Next 5 Games
|
New Jersey
|
Tue 09/21 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Toronto
|
Thu 09/23 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Toronto
|
Fri 09/24 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Minnesota
|
Sat 09/25 | 8:00 PM EDT |
|
@
New Jersey
|
Tue 09/28 | 7:00 PM EDT |
Last 5 Games
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/09 | OT - L 3 - 4 |
|
@
Chicago
|
Sun 06/06 | L 4 - 7 |
|
Chicago
|
Fri 06/04 | W 5 - 3 |
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/02 | OT - W 4 - 3 |
|
@
Chicago
|
Mon 05/31 | L 1 - 2 |
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- NHL 2010-11 Season Preview: Wrestling with Columbus Blue Jackets
- Fantasy Hockey Philosophy: Matt Romig's goalies on the cheap
- Puck Headlines: Modano gets his Red Wings; Jason Smith arrested
- Jaroslav Halak arrives in St. Louis, greeted by expectations
- In which Canucks' Ryan Kesler annihilates us in NHL 2K11
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
