Mid-Season Flyers GVT Ratings
So, Tom Awad of Puck Prospectus was nice enough to give me his GVT data again, this time without me even having to ask!
Now, the data is over a week old - as of 27 December - but the day after he gave me the data, he ran with his own story that Travis linked to and we discussed here. Because of this, my delay in putting up this story was twofold: 1) I didn't want to overwhelm the board with more broad stats; and 2) I wanted to take a different approach this time since just giving the numbers was already done.
With that, I decided I would take the numbers and compare them to last year's and Puck Prospectus' VUKOTA projections.
Follow after the jump to see.
Here is a nice, neat table:
| 2008-2009 | Projection | 2009-2010 | ||||
| Name | Total | GVT/G | Total | GVT/G | Total | GVT/G |
| Chris Pronger | 8.2 | 0.10 | 10.62 | 0.15 | 7.2 | 0.19 |
| Mike Richards | 19.4 | 0.25 | 17.07 | 0.22 | 6.8 | 0.18 |
| Matt Carle | 3.4 | 0.04 | 4.97 | 0.08 | 5.9 | 0.16 |
| Claude Giroux | 5.4 | 0.13 | 7.68 | 0.15 | 5.4 | 0.15 |
| Kimmo Timonen | 8.9 | 0.12 | 8.75 | 0.12 | 4.8 | 0.13 |
| Jeff Carter | 20.1 | 0.25 | 16.71 | 0.21 | 4.3 | 0.12 |
| James van Riemsdyk* | 3.9 | 0.11 | ||||
| Scott Hartnell | 11.5 | 0.14 | 9.30 | 0.13 | 2.8 | 0.08 |
| Braydon Coburn | 3.3 | 0.04 | 7.74 | 0.11 | 2.7 | 0.08 |
| Danny Briere* | 5.3 | 0.18 | 6.88 | 0.14 | 2.6 | 0.09 |
| Michael Leighton | -3 | -0.18 | 0.50 | 0.02 | 1.6 | 0.59 |
| Dan Carcillo | -4.3 | -0.06 | 0.79 | 0.01 | 1.2 | 0.04 |
| Simon Gagne | 18.6 | 0.24 | 12.98 | 0.19 | 1.1 | 0.08 |
| Blair Betts | 0.1 | 0.00 | 0.16 | 0.00 | 1 | 0.06 |
| David Laliberte* | 0.5 | 0.05 | ||||
| Darroll Powe | -2.4 | -0.04 | 0.77 | 0.01 | 0.4 | 0.02 |
| Ole-Kristian Tollefsen | -1.2 | -0.06 | 1.08 | 0.03 | 0.3 | 0.03 |
| Oskars Bartulis* | 0.1 | 0.00 | ||||
| Danny Syvret | -0.4 | -0.20 | 1.32 | 0.05 | 0 | 0.00 |
| Jonathon Kalinski* | -0.3 | -0.03 | -0.2 | -0.02 | ||
| Jared Ross* | -1.4 | -0.14 | -0.2 | -0.07 | ||
| Riley Cote | -3.5 | -0.06 | -1.54 | -0.03 | -0.3 | -0.03 |
| Arron Asham | 0.1 | 0.00 | 1.00 | 0.02 | -0.3 | -0.01 |
| Ray Emery | -0.3 | -0.01 | ||||
| Ryan Parent | -0.5 | -0.02 | 0.81 | 0.02 | -0.4 | -0.01 |
| Andreas Nodl | -4.6 | -0.12 | -0.5 | -0.05 | ||
| Mika Pyorala* | -0.5 | -0.01 | ||||
| Ian Laperriere | 3 | 0.04 | 2.05 | 0.03 | -0.9 | -0.02 |
| Brian Boucher | 5.8 | 0.27 | 4.14 | 0.17 | -1.1 | -0.08 |
For those of you who wish to look at the full table which includes games played and a breakdown of each GVT value (offensive, defensive, and shootout), click here.
I'll try to ignore the things that Tom already said in his post, but forgive me if some of them overlap.
Forwards
The slump that the Flyers were in (remember that?) reflects a great deal on these numbers since they were calculated after only their fifth win in 19 games. But Tom already covered that.
The Flyers supposed leaders - Mike Richards and Jeff Carter - had ridiculously good years last year. We already knew this, just like we knew Simon Gagne also had a great year. When you look at it on a per game basis, you see that all three were far above everybody except Brian Boucher (who's numbers come from San Jose). Even Danny Briere was a distant fourth among skaters. So when all three were projected to fall back to earth this year, it seemed completely reasonable. Richards has fallen slightly, down to what Briere did last year - which is still pretty good. Carter, on the other hand, is performing at less than half of his rate last season, while Gagne is at one third of his rate from last year. Any question of why this team isn't scoring should obviously begin with Carter (14 goals) and Gagne (5), but this is about more than just those guys.
The Flyers secondary players are also having a decline from last year, mainly Scott Hartnell - falling from 0.14 per game to merely 0.08 - and Danny Briere - cutting his number in half from 0.18 to 0.09. The fact that I just named 5 of the Flyers top-6 forwards with a decline in production (four of which are severe) should not be a surprise, just as an outsider seeing these numbers could predict the poor play of the Flyers of late.
The good news comes from the other forwards, Claude Giroux in particular. He's already matched his total of last year in five fewer games, and he's right on his per game projection. Should he stay healthy, he'll be only forward who was projected to finish the year at 1.0 or higher to actually beat his projection. Sad, but it shows that while Giroux hasn't been scoring as much, he's still a very valuable player.
Alternatively, Dan Carcillo is having quite a turnaround. Last year, he finished a -4.3 and projected to be slightly above replacement level. Well, he's 5.5 points ahead of where he was last year and is earning a full point per game more. He's on pace to finish with a 3.0 GVT, a marked improvement from his projected 0.8. The same is true of Blair Betts who sees himself rating 10 times better than last year and much better than his projection. A solid 0.06 per game sees him just behind Scott Hartnell and Simon Gagne (both at 0.08), even if those two are under performing.
Tom touched on James van Riemsdyk - and it's true that he has been largely invisible for over a month - but the fact that everyone was calling for him to get sent down because he's just not ready for the NHL yet needs to be put into context. Throughout the year, JVR has been this team's fourth best forward, just behind Jeff Carter and far ahead of Hartnell, Briere, and Gagne. Looking at it per game, the fact that he's so close to Jeff Carter should make a lot of his critics at least take a pause. While it's true that JVR has been struggling, looking at the wide image shows that he's not struggling any worse than Jeff Carter - it could even be argued that Carter is struggling more than van Riemsdyk. This doesn't mean he's as good as Carter or that he's going to maintain (let alone improve) his level of play, but rather if you are criticizing JVR, you have to at least recognize that he exceeded your expectations and focus on Carter who has been a severe disappointment.
Lastly, the remaining players are a mixed bag. David Laliberte rode his hot streak to a respectable 0.5; Darroll Powe has markedly improved to the level of just above replacement; Arron Asham is not off to a good start - GVT sees him as ineffective as Riley Cote - but we like him around here, so he's forgiven; Andreas Nodl and Mika Pyorala are having worse years than people expected, but not by much. Neither were expected to be anything special, but it's still disappointing; and Ian Laperriere's numbers are rather bad, but I already looked at him.
Pretty easy to see that most players were under-performing through that date, but hopefully they've gotten out of that slump.
Defense
When the Flyers traded for Chris Pronger, they did it for many reasons, but the biggest reason was that he's just really good at hockey and he makes his teammates better. Looking at these numbers, he's almost at his 08-09 total already while nearly doubling his per game output. The fact that he's outperforming a 50% projected improvement is just that much more impressive.
An example of Pronger impressing is the much talked about improvement of Matt Carle. Carle was good last year - enough so that he was projected to double his GVT per game this year - but no one could have expected him to quadruple his per game rate this year. While that can't all be attributed to Pronger, you have to think a large portion of it is. Still, the fact that both are playing so far above their projected outputs speaks to how they help each others games.
The second pairing of Timonen and Coburn has been written about by many people, but TImonen has largely held his own. This is something that has always been said about TImonen - you know he's going to give a great effort that goes largely unnoticed. Coburn however, has somehow managed to double his per game output. When I looked at him the other day, I concluded that he's having a worse year than last season by a rather wide margin. Yet GVT sees him as twice as effective per game this year. Hopefully I can get an answer to this from Tom.
Speaking of Tom, in his story he had some rather harsh words for those players that filled in on the third defensive pairing. But if you look at the numbers, only Ryan Parent finds himself in the negative. As I said in the comments to that link, a fair assessment is that the trio of Ole-Kristian Tollefsen, Oskars Bartulis, and Danny Syvret have largely been mediocre. They make some mistakes, they don't generate much offense (although Syvret now has two goals in three games), yet they aren't a glaring problem for the team. I'd posit that the three of them are good-to-great 7th defenseman, but at least one of them is this team's 6th. Is that a problem? No. Can it be improved? Sure, but there's nothing wrong with having a replacement level player as your 6th defenseman. Ryan Parent, however, needs to pick up his game. Obviously, he's hurt now and can't, but he's had a rather disappointing season for someone who was expected to take that next step this year.
Goalie
Ask anybody in Philly about the Flyers goalie situation, and you'll likely hear groans. But if you asked them during the month of December, most would probably groan and then admit that Brian Boucher wasn't the reason this team was losing. Yet the team went through three goalies and the best one according to GVT is Michael Leighton. He's three times better than he was projected to be while Brian Boucher and Ray Emery are both in the negative.
Personally, I don't read much into these rankings for many reasons:
- Michael Leighton just simply isn't this good. He's a marginal backup who had something to prove after being waived again. He got hot against bad teams, so a more accurate reflection of how good Leighton is would be his 08-09 GVT: -3. Enjoy it while it lasts.
- Ray Emery played hurt and got rocked. Everyone saw the splits right before he had surgery, and he was consistently ranked in Tom's top 10 NHL players before he got hurt. Despite his horrible strech while hurt, he's still only a -0.3 on the year. If he's healthy, Emery should be more than capable in the Flyers net.
- Whether Brian Boucher is opening the door when Emery is healthy is another question. He's currently dead last on the team in total GVT and GVT per game, yet anyone who watched the games in December would be hard pressed to find bad goals that were let in by Boucher. I chalk this number up to the team not playing for Boucher, so I largely ignore this number too.
Conclusion
These numbers came just as the team was getting out of their slump, so that's the first thing to note. Secondly, when the entire team is slumping, it's hard to criticize just one person.
I am honestly interested in looking at next month's numbers if the Flyers are able to take this little stretch and turn it into something bigger. That should give a better picture of what this team can do.
Thoughts? Criticisms?
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Comments
While it’s true that JVR has been struggling, looking at the wide image shows that he’s not struggling any worse than Jeff Carter
Except Carer isn’t on a two-way contract. And in his struggles he has still produced a hell of a lot more than JVR (snapping wrist-shots of posts about a half dozen times), which suggests Carter will pull out of it, while history suggests JVR won’t.
Before we label Carter a disappointment, I’d like to compare his stats to the second half of last season. Maybe the first three months of 2008-09 were in fact an aberration/hot streak.
Sure, but there’s nothing wrong with having a replacement level player as your 6th defenseman.
Yes, yes there is. As you see right now, those guys are now the 5th and 6th defenseman. Fortunately for the Flyers, its because the 5th dman went down. But what happens when Pronger misses a few games? Assuming there are no other injuries, half the blue line is now replacement level or worse.
Mario, I have been pretty critical of Carter as you well know, only because I want more from him not because he is a bad player. What do you think is his hitch right now? Was the chemistry with Hartnell and Lupul last year so great or are they not complimenting him with the right wingers? Is the shoulder still bothering him? I want to see him succeed for my own benefit but something is definitely up with him this year.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 7, 2010 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
Nothing.
He’ll score 30 goals this year and continue to be a very very good two way player. His 46 last year was an outlier, he’s just a 30-40 goal scorer who plays both ways, which makes him an elite player.
Interesting take. Based on what you just said, which is accurate, would it be a good move to trade him now while the rest of the league sees him as a 46 goal scorer, if in fact they still do, to get some more important pieces for this team than just having another 30 goal scoring center? Recently even more than Carter I am starting to think, for the really right price, moving Giroux might not be complete stupidity. I think he needs to play center with talented wings he can feed and that is just not a position they have to give behind Briere, Carter and Richards. I really would like to see them add another scoring winger and of course a goaltender. Insult me as you see necessary for the above points because even I had trouble getting the Giroux comment off the keyboard.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 7, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t think anybody in the league views him as a 46 goal scorer and the Flyers will definitely not get that value in a trade.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jan 7, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
That is why I wanted to trade him last summer while the iron was smokin’ hot. But let’s just keep the above comments to ourselves because there are still the Sathers out there in the hockey world that are ripe for the fleecing but then again Holmgren probably beat to many of them up for them to be giving him any deals.
by M from Pdaddy on Jan 7, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Explain this.
And in his struggles he has still produced a hell of a lot more than JVR (snapping wrist-shots of posts about a half dozen times), which suggests Carter will pull out of it, while history suggests JVR won’t.
I agree that Carter will pull out of his funk sooner than later. But I don’t understand that last part.
JVR won’t ever produce again this year? Or ever? I’m assuming you’re just washing out this year for him? He’s only 20 so it’s far too early to consider him a bust.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
The league has passed JVR by this season. He’s not experienced enough to compete at the level of hockey the league will play the rest of the season. He’ll have okay games against shitty teams (like last night) but in a good hockey game he’s worthless.
See: Wheeler, Blake 2008-09.
Gotcha. That makes sense. He has had good games against solid teams, though. He figured in nicely during our early-November win in Buffalo, no?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I was forecasting.
Early season hockey is the wild wild west. Look at that ridiculous Washington/Philly game during the first week. We’d never see a game as wide open as that in the second half of the year.
Today not included?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 7, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
You should update this post. He played pretty well last night. The defending cup champs aren’t any good at all, right?
by orangeandblack20 on Jan 8, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
JVR played a great came last night and is ranked 4th on this team at the Forward position and you still can’t say anything but negative things despite more than a ton of statistical evidence to the contrary.
On the other I do agree with you about Carter a 24 year old center who plays solid two way game and scores 30-35 goals is pretty damn good especially for a 2nd line center. Basically he is a more offensively talented Rod Brindamour who sucks at faceoffs they even share the same number.
For curiosity sakes I was wondering if anyone could find the GVT for Ilya Kovachulk for comparison he is not ranked in the top 10 so he is somewhere under 12 total GVT which is also way below Carter’s projected value.
Kovalchuk is ranked 18th in the entire NHL with a 9.7 total GVT. Offensive – 8.7; Defensive – 0.4; Shootout – 0.6.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 7, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, he’s the 11th highest rated skater.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 7, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Jeff Carter’s second half, all numbers from Hockey-Reference
19 goals, 21 assists, 40 points, plus-14, with a 12% shooting percentage.
This year through 41 games:
14 goals, 19 assists, 33 points, minus-2, with a 7.7% shooting percentage.
So, he’s doing worse than he was the last half of last season.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jan 7, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Slightly worse, but not terribly off pace. Pretty close to what I would’ve expected. Certainly that’s who he really is. Let’s just be glad he didn’t have his first half of 2008-09 during a contract year.
I think this year’s shooting percentage is a bit low, let’s see if he comes back to the mean over the second half.
Concrete Lines and Health
I think that two things that are helping the Flyers right now are the new lines and a healthy roster. If you look at the big slump there was one huge problem: chemistry. Now that the lines have been the same for the last eight games or so we have had a nice little streak of 6-1-1. The only line that isn’t averaging two points per game is the “third” line of Asham, Powe, and Reemer. Yes, they aren’t scoring, but we have all seen the energy that this line brings. Asham and Powe are bangers that are doing their jobs very well, and Reemer is a stud in the making. Yes, he did hit his “rookie wall” but just because his production on the scorecard isn’t there right now, that doesn’t mean he’s not being a productive player. In the past eight games I have noticed that his physical play has greatly picked up and also he has played a lot stronger with the puck.
The “fourth line” of Lappy, Betts, and Chico has been amazing (just like it has before the slump). In the past eight games there have been twelve points scored by this line. Danny Carcillo has finally turned into a hockey player. Blair Betts is this years achillies heel (Think back to last summer when Richie went after Homer and said the trades at the deadline killed the chemistry. The main guy he was referring to was obviously Upshall, but we all forget about Vannanen and Metro. I feel that the team had a bad end of last year and a slump this year because they missed Metro and Betts respectively, greatly.) And Lappy is the heart and soul of this squad. Carter’s line has 16 points in the past 8 games, and Jeff Carter has turned into as much of a playmaker as a sniper. How about that pass to Danny B last night! Briere is hot as could be with 5 goals in 8 games, and Hartnell has been playing his role of the big goon very well. The Richie line has 18 points in the past 8 games. Richie has 7 (4,3), G has 5 (1,4), and Gags has 7 (4,3). We always say that the key to winning is to have your scorers score the goals. We are getting that right now, but when our checking line is scoring more than a half goal a game, you won’t lose.
In conclusion: Flyers hockey is back. Its fun to watch. Were winning on the score board and on the physical side. Danny “Chico” Carcillo is my new favorite player and I love his new signature “rock on” thing as he strolls to the box!
by orangeandblack20 on Jan 7, 2010 3:11 PM EST reply actions
For those of you who are interested, Tom’s stats are now available in real time over at our fellow SBNation site, Behind the Net. Click here for the link.
They’re already a little different (Carter rising; Coburn and Bartulis falling; Syvret rising) so feel free to go check it out.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
RPM
Relative Plus Minus. I have never herd of this stat, and do not understand it, but the Flyer leaders are very interesting. Carle and Pronger are no suprise up top, but the three guys under him are Mike Richards sandwiched under none other than Chico Carbomb and one over JVR. Pretty neat stuff.
by orangeandblack20 on Jan 8, 2010 4:12 PM EST reply actions
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