Mike Richards Role Change
By looking at zone start and matchups, I show how Richards has gone from shutdown center to third-line wanderer due to his ineffective wingers. Because of this, the Flyers skill players are missing out on offensive opportunities and the Flyers are missing out on Richards' unique skillset.
over 1 year ago
Geoff Detweiler
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really interesting when I guess you’d think that Richards would be 10-15 percent points in the other direction of DZ FO%. How about Richie centering G and Nodl or Powe as a shutdown unit? G has one goal at ES (PP and PK monster) and has a lot of prior success at RW. Thanks
I really like this idea too. The only concern I see is how that would effect the Carter line. At that point, you’d have Nodl/Powe – Carter – JVR/Zherdev. I don’t know how well that would work, but I do like the Richards/Giroux pairing.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 10:19 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Its an excellent point. But I don’t expect this to stay the same. I think this is temporary as I’m sure coach is trying this to do elevate the games of other by having Mike on their line. Right now others are going quite well and I’m sure the captain has accepted this role well and he will do it well while this team is hot. Mike performs so many roles so well that its easy to plug him into whatever the teams needs are.
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I can get behind this theory, especially the temporary aspect of it. But there’s no denying that it’s not lifting others’ games, it’s not using Richards most effectively, and it’s taking away offensive opportunities from better scoring threats.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 10:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks Homer. Really. Well done.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
Even I don’t blame Homer for this…
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 10:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Really? Because if Homer got decent wingers to put along with Richie then Lavy would have a lot more options for his line combinations. Even if Lavy took your suggestion of Richie, Nodl and Powe that still isn’t a great line by any stretch. Sure it will probably do a good job of shutting down the opponents top line but it won’t bring much if anything to the table offensively. That lack of options I blame on Homer.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I think the Flyers have decent wingers, they just don’t have ones that mesh with Richards. The one thing I will say is that Guerin would look nice on his wing instead of Carcillo. Other than that, I think if they went with:
JVR – Carter – Zherdev
Nodl – Richards – Giroux
You have a clear purpose for those lines. The problem is most likely JVR’s rough start to the year, but the construction of the team allows for Richie to have good wingers. The lines simply aren’t working out.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 1:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
As long as we have adult diapers in the locker room we should be ok.
Geoff, you are right, in the end the lines aren’t working. I really don’t think JVR is really ever going to turn out to be what people would consider a good # 2 overall pick, and I honestly think this team should send him to the AHL and let him figure his stuff out.
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I agree that he’s unlikely to live up to “#2 overall”, but I wouldn’t send him to the AHL at all. That place is a mess.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Good read Geoff
I would try JVR/Giroux/Richards (G at center) before going to the complete shut down line with Nodl and Powe (which I would completely trust in that role actually). Then let Carter center Zherdev and Nodl, HBL stays the same, And it would be Betts and Powe with one of Shelley/Carcillo.
I’d rather them go down that route before putting him in a complete checking role. You could easily through Richards at center on that line as well with G and JVR, but I’d like them to experiment with him at wing (I know that limits his defensive responsibilities, but I’d like to see it.
Is this the right room for an argument?
Even though JVR has been a lot worse, Richards hasnt been doing much 5-5 either. I’d like to see a JVR-Richards-G line as well, just because I think they can still be a good defensive line with more scoring pop.
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Rather than reply to both you and Don, I will just say it here:
Why keep Richards with JVR? It’s not working, and you can’t trust them against the top line. People seem to like Richards and Giroux – and I agree – but if JVR iis going to be sheltered in the offensive zone – as he has been, and should be – why not put him with Carter and Zherdev, two people who will also get a ton of offensive zone starts – again, as they should.
I know Don wants Nodl to score, but those lines still leave unclear roles. Each line has a defensive specialist (Nodl, Richards), a defensive liability (Zherdev, JVR), and an offensive forward who plays above average defense (Carter, Giroux). Why not combine the offense, combine the defense, and let Richie play a shutdown/transition game?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 1:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Me wanting Nodl to score has nothing to do with the lines I’m suggesting. I suggest JVR because I think having him with Giroux will help get him going offensively. I also think having Nodl with Carter and JVR with Giroux and Richards will better balance the lines. I agree it doesn’t give a line with 3 solid defensive forwards, but gives you the best chemistry. Obviously its just my opinion and you can disagree, but that’s what I was going for rather than one line that has a clear defensive role.
And frankly I feel Nodl would produce better with G and Richards, but I care more about getting JVR going offensively, and IMO playing with G and Richards gives him the best chance to do so.
Is this the right room for an argument?
by DLJr on Nov 6, 2010 1:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It will be interesting to see if they make changes. I mean, the team has won five in a row and if they keep winning, the coaches and gm may just say “why change what is working?” you know?
Yeah, I think the real test will be Washington tomorrow with the OV-Backstrom-Semin line. The last five games haven’t really featured an elite top line (Crosby and Malkin centering subpar wingers doesn’t really qualify). The best option to counter that, if the lines are left as they are, would be the Powe-Carter-Giroux line
by mantis toboggan on Nov 6, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this. That will be the test.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know there are lots of fans here who like JVR (and I think he will one day be a good/possibly great scoring forward), but knowing that JVR has great trade value, perhaps a solution to the lineup problems is to swap JVR for a solid two-way winger? Maybe someone like R.J. Umberger or Blake Wheeler? The Flyers would be giving up a player with loads of potential, but would become even harder to play against if they made that kind of trade.
Read a entry on Flyers goal scored by about JVR. Was suggested that they sit him. He has seemed to of disappeared here recently. Maybe the board he got the other game dinged him up but he still looks a step slow and ineffective at best. What do we do. Like mentioned above not really fair to have Richie laboring to prduce with no real help.
Stick with me babe, moth balls the size of diamonds.
by flyerfreek on Nov 6, 2010 1:54 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Seriously.
Stick with me babe, moth balls the size of diamonds.
by flyerfreek on Nov 6, 2010 2:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I responded in much more long-winded fashion on SBNation Philly, but I’d like to see them try Richards-Nodl-Zherdev. The LBH line is fantastic, and Giroux-Carter-Powe showed me alot of potential before the Briere suspension.
Zherdev immediately turns the line into an offensive threat, and is certainly an upgrade over JVR, who is just as bad defensively but has yet to find his scoring touch this year (so he’s basically dead weight). Nodl is responsible defensively and has scoring potential, so putting him with two talented scorers may help bring that out.
The wild card would be putting Zherdev on a two-way line with lots of defensive zone starts. Could he do it? I’m honestly not sure, but maybe placing him on a line with two strong defensive forwards would help to cover up his shortcomings.
It’s situations like these where you really miss Gagne. Richie-Gags-Nodl would be perfect for solving this problem.
line combo's
I haven’t been able to watch the last couple games…My question is has the line of Carter, Hartnell, and Leino been as effective as it was with Briere or close to that? If that line has played well without Briere, why not try Briere with Richards? Giroux and Zherdev have shown chemistry in spurts, if playing together they might build on that even strength… I know Briere prefers centre, but the team is winning without him at centre…I remember watching Briere and Richards in the past and felt they complimented each other well.
JVR-Richards-Briere (Strong defensive centre with JVR)
Leino-Carter-Hartnell (Carter and Hartnell showed great chemistry up until last year)
Powe-Giroux-Zherdev (A energy guy to compliment 2 very gited offensive players)
Carcillo-Betts-Shelly
The difference between Briere at center and Briere at wing is enough for me to think that moving him to wing, even if the Hartnell-Carter-Leino is effective, is a bad idea. Giroux has made the transition to wing better than Carter, Richards, or Briere have in the past, so I see no reason to change that right now
by mantis toboggan on Nov 6, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I have always had Richards as the third line center on this team because of his unique skills. He should be this teams shut down center by playing most of minutes against the opponents top lines whether that would be on the PK or even strength. He will make up his point totals on getting PP time where he will be with skilled players.
Just Call Me "M"!
The problem is that this isn’t about “third-line” v. “first-line”. It’s about who he matches up against. Since Richards isn’t matching up against the first line any more, there’s a problem, whether he’s still “third” or “first”, he’s matching up against third, which isn’t using him properly.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Your right, whether you want to call it the first or third, his role on the team is shut down center. Giroux and Briere are not suited for that role and they are more dynamic offensively and have to be the other two centers on this team. So by process of elimination and talents, Richards gets that assignment and he thrives on it. Instead of being a Crosby or Ovechkin he is Dave Poulin. This is why Carter has to go for either talent for Richards or space to sign Giroux and Leino. Why is it that not being the top offensive center on this team a slight against him?
Just Call Me "M"!
After reading below’s response it seems we totally agree. This is what I have been saying for two years now. And that is why moving Carter to get some better talent for Richards is what needs to be done. Giroux as one of three centers on this team over Carter is a no brainer. Carter can’t sniff Giroux’s talent and he is just getting started. There are a number of teams out there that need a top center like Carter who have the wingers to make him shine. Toronto, Calgary, Anaheim are just off the top of my head.
Just Call Me "M"!
I hope those teams agree with you. I think Carter has to be the focal point of his line, meaning other team’s must be willing to try and find a fit for him as well. But that’s me.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 7, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
He needs a different set of wingers then either Giroux and Briere need. He is a star but it has to fit like the year he had Hartnell and Lupul. They complemented what he excels at and being creative with the puck and setting up the wingers for goals is not his strength. They have to make this move before the trade deadline I think. Also at the trade deadline someone needs to make a ballsy decision about JVR. We talk a lot about wasted cap space around here, but his 1.6 isn’t benefitting a much greater importance to this team then Shelley at 1.1.
Just Call Me "M"!
First off, amazing article Geoff. I think that this type of advanced stat because there are no other variables. Corsi/Fenwick has variables like who you play with, but this is totally independent of everything. Secondly, I don’t care if Mike Richards is on a line with Jody Shelley AND Riley Cote, if were on a 5 game winning streak it doesn’t matter to me, Coach Laviolette, and I’d guarantee that it doesn’t matter to Richie. And my opinion on what he’s got going on is he already has one very solid defensive line in whoever plays with Betts. He’s got a great offensive line in HBL. Now, he’s got a very good defensivle line with a 40 goal scoring center on it (sniper), a potential 100 point getting play making center, and a grinder who has shown the abilities to put the puck in the net occasionally. All three guys: Carter, Giroux, Powe have logged big time penalty kill minutes within the past year or two and are all solid defensively. This line is our “top line” if you consider a top line to be able to shut down and score. If the “top line” in your opinion is just the best scoring line, then our top line is the Briere line. However, when we are all healthy and we throw Richards with Zherdev and JVR- which i imagen to be the lines on Sunday, then this line, with a high offensive zone start % could be deadly. The best two way playmaker with two guys who have been scratched recently for defensive work ethic or something along those lines. If you want an attitude to rub off on a kid and essentially a kid given another shot, why not put them with your top center with lots of opportunities to score. This line has the potential be our best offensive, and that is saying a lot with the production that the LBH line has done. However, I could be all wrong and Laviolette is just sticking with what’s hot. Either way, were winning and the lines could be whatever.
by orangeandblack20 on Nov 6, 2010 5:54 PM EDT reply actions
First off, amazing article Geoff. I think that this type of advanced stat because there are no other variables
First off, amazing article Geoff. I like this type of advanced stat…
by orangeandblack20 on Nov 6, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said in response to M above, it isn’t about how you classify the Flyers lines. I don’t care if Briere is the first-line center or if Carter is. I don’t care if Richards’ is third or first. I care that Carter and Briere are offensive specialists who should be used in the offensive zone, against other team’s second and third lines. They will destroy that opposition, especially with those opportunities.
I care that Richards should be the 5-on-5 defensive shutdown center, and he’s not. Wellwood- Richards – JVR against other team’s third lines is not a mismatch. Richards should always be on the ice against Tavares, Crosby, Parise, Gaborik, etc. But he can’t do that if he’s carrying JVR and Wellwood, since there’s no way those two can face the NHL’s best.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LINES ONCE AGAIN
July, September, October, now November.
I’ve been very busy, but every time I come back, the hit keeps playing, like one of those old “Top 40” hits that years ago would be played into oblivion (kids: listen to XM 20-on-20 to get an idea of what I am saying).
There is a root cause here. And EREX21 nailed it, the only part I disagree with Geoff, since in his reply he is not willing to blame Homer.
The good news is that the Flyers and Lavvy appear to be overcoming the lines-that-don’t-work. We’ll see what happens as Briere returns.
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz. Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt.
haha, I concede that Guerin would look phenomenal on Richie’s wing. Other than that, I think it’s a pairing/chemistry problem, outside of Homer’s control.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Nov 6, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This what you get for being so damn versatile silly Richards. If Richards were a baseball player he’d consindered a 5 tool guy. Does hockey have it’s own term to describe complete players like Richards?
Pardon me, but as a Jody Shelly School of Grammar graduate, I forget to proof read.
If Richards were a baseball player he’d consindered a 5 tool guy
should read
If Richards were a baseball player he’d be considered a 5 tool guy.
Could article Geoff.
I think using him versus the top competition is a coaching thing. Lavy rolls lines and doesn’t play the matchup game with his top 3 forward lines. If a particular line is looking good and clicking they will get more shifts. He doesn’t like to let the opposition dictate who he puts on the ice. Stevens tried to play matchup game more and grinded Richards down with tons of hard minutes. It is a philosophical difference. Richards is still on the PK shutting guys down and trying to score and he will get the late one goal game shifts but during the coarse of a game lines will roll.
Lavy will matchup the top D-pairing and get Pronger and Carle against the top line. I like this system it keeps up the offensive pressure. Everyone attacking in waves and getting into the game, playing with an identity. When you start matching up all the time you end up letting the other team dictate the play and pace of the game.
I have mentioned this before the idea of a shutdown checking line is dead or not used to much in this league anymore post lockout.
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