Friday Morning Fly By: So Long Garrett Klotz
Today's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- Recaps of last night's win: [BSH] [CSNPhilly] [delcotimes.com] [Daily News] [Philly Sports Daily] [The700level] [Inquirer] [NHL.com]
- Toronto fans were upset they didn't get to see Dan Carcillo play: [Daily News]
- Tons of news regarding the Phantoms, including the team staying in Glens Falls for another year and Garrett Klotz being assigned to the CHL. [PostStar]
- Aggregated power rankings for the week: [From the Rink]
- Looking at the Oilers improving fortunes, using scoring chances and Fenwick. P.S. Do you see the correlation between shots that got through to the goal and scoring chances? [The Copper & Blue]
- Perhaps the goal of the year where Oscar Milton put the puck off the back of the goalie's head into the net: [Puck Daddy]
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There truly is no winning The Garrett Klotz Argument.
I’ve got nothing but love for The Third Period Game Thread last night, and all people involved in it.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
No.
I’m still going to set up a Bandcamp account with the name The Garrett Klotz Argument. The re-recorded BSH Radio Theme, “Here Comes The Sports!” will be available there, as will any other instrumental pieces I record which don’t fit the mold of my other project.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Maybe a new song called “Prarie Thunder” for his new team?
Or just any cover of the Pure Prarie League?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
Carcillo is the spark they have been missing. Sit Nodl.
Carcillo adds spark that needs to be there. We don’t need Shelley every game, although probably should have in the lineup against Toronto. But we don’t need a slow heavy hitter every game who contributes nothing. I would be sitting Nodl, how many defensive forwards do we need who contribute a handful of goals? Seriously, if Carcillo got the same line assignments as Nodl (w/ Richards, i.e. not 4rth line) and the same playing time, there is no doubt (extrapolate from last year) that he would have 20 goals or so this season.
You’re kidding right?
I am looking forward to Geoff’s response to this.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I’m not even going to respond. It’s so ridiculous that people still hate on Nodl.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Since Geoff won't...
Last year Carcillo spent ~36% of his ES time with Lappy and Betts, but he also spent ~24% of his ES time with Richards and gagne (I think it’s safe to say Gagne > JVR here). So he still played with pretty darn good linemates a good % of the time and only got to the 12 goal mark.
By sitting Nodl you lose a defensively responsible forward that has more offensive upside than Carcillo (I may be alone in seeing Nodl as having offensive upside, I know I was before this year), who can also kill penalties. You are replacing him with a pest that can draw penalties and fight. However, so far this season, Nodl has drawn 1.5 penalties per 60 and only taken 0.2 penalties per 60. Granted it’s a small sample size, but substituting Carcillo in for Noddl might not even increase your penalties drawn versus penalties taken, therefore reducing the benefit of Carcillo to basically being a fighting pest only used during 5 on 5 hockey.
Nodl plays in more situations (ES and PK), is trusted to play the final minutes of a game, is producing offensively while still being one of the most defensively responsible wingers on the team, and has helped the teams penalties drawn versus penalties taken ratio; and you want to take him out for a “spark”?!?
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Not entirely alone. But I certainly didn’t see this in Nodl.
You are replacing him with a pest that can draw penalties and fight.
Fight? I guess he can engage in fisticuffs but he’s not really that good of a fighter. I assume that is why you didn’t end that sentence with the word “well”.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
For the record, I don’t disagree with the notion that Carcillo should play, and that he can be a spark. But sitting Nodl is not the way to go.
BOILER UP!! 2010-2011
"You can commit no mistake and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." - Jean-Luc Picard
I didn’t even say that!! Yay someone else loves Carcillo too!!
I don’t care how he gets in, but he has to play. Preferibly sit Shelly. Noodles should play, sitting him is not the way to go
Carcillo's number one lover fan and defender
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Carcillo is my favorite Flyer, personally. And I hate the way the teams treating him lately too.
Samesis
<3 I love you I love you I loveeee you!
Carcillo's number one lover fan and defender
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Hahaha. Its not that I don’t think he’s a replaceable player, I just think that:
A) Hes so much better then Shelley(fighter, skater, offensive and defensive production), who makes just as much money(which is an insult to Carcillo)
B) He plays with a spark
C) He was really, really good for us last year. Everybody on this site was writing him off the day he was traded here, and I got barraged by everyone when I said he could score 15 goals for us(i know he only scored 12, but thats still a lot more then what other people thought he could do).
Samesis
I wasn’t a big Flyers fan yet when the trade happened, so I had no reason to dislike him. No one can deny he that he plays with heart, its so visible. He loves the sport and doesn’t just kinda give up (Carter! Jeeze. He just stands in the middle of the ice sometimes and misses pucks) Shelly is an insult to everyone. Do the Sharks want him back?? He also makes awesome faces on ice which are hilarious. And he’s hot. Before he got hurt he did attempt some one man rushes, dangles and the like (unsuccessfully) he keeps that up, and he will probly score 15 as you said. Except I don’t really like how he licks his lips in interviews, it’s kinda weird.
Carcillo's number one lover fan and defender
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
If Carcillo plays, Shelley should sit. I like Nodl, he seems to have an extra jump and gets to pucks first when they’re dumped into the zone.
by youaretheman26 on Dec 10, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
You were on the right track with Carcillo being better the Shelley, but then you ruined it by saying “Sit Nodl”. you just lost your talking privileges for the day.
Samesis
Shelly actually produced a point for last night taking a hit from Phaneuf to start that 2 on 1 rush that resulted in the huge 4th goal.
Whoop dee do. He still sucks, and that goal was borderline meaningless. The Leafs were not going to come back from a 3 goal deficit, they’re the freaking Leafs.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Dec 10, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
The came back 3-0 the other night against the Caps and were putting on the pressure and starting to gain contro of the game, until Briere squashed the momentum with that goal. Meaningless my ass.
And yes Shelly might suck but a fourth line guy who plays 6 minutes a game at best isn;t out there to do really anything but the give the other players a rest. 3 pts and a plus 2 isn’t hurting us at all.
Good for them, Toronto was not winning that game and you know it. I know you like to worship every Flyers player, coach and front office person but face the facts on Shelley. He is a disaster. He takes stupid penalties, loses almost all of his fights, doesn’t draw a lot of penalties and can’t play regular minutes.
Jody Shelley is killing us. It just doesn’t show up on the stat sheet because your average stat sheet doesn’t have Penalties taken/60. His is embarrassingly high. Enough is enough with people trying to rationalize this guys’s play and look at the silver lining. He’s a bad hockey player with an awful contract.
The Flyers are 11-2-2 with Dan Carcillo in the lineup this year. I’m sure they faced a weaker schedule because obviously he doesn’t make that big of a difference but he clearly makes this a much better hockey team than Jody Shelley’s plodding, penalty laden 6 minutes a game.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Dec 10, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
I said it was borderline meaningless. Is it nice to answer their score and regain momentum? Of course. Were the Toronto Maple Leafs coming back to win that one? Not a chance in hell.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Dec 11, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
Toronto threw waffels at the Flyers. For reals. All Chris Pronger wants to know is “who brings waffels to a game?”
well….thats a first. Whats next, omlettes?
Carcillo's number one lover fan and defender
Hockey: The Most Delicious Game On Earth.
Next time they should bring berries and whipped cream. The Flyers fans can bring syrup for the next Toronto game in Philly and after the game they can all sit down for some delicious Belgian Waffles!

"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
TWSS
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions

"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Ha! The Tubes. Such a great song.
Flyers Fans: We've survived Lock-outs, Lindros and Cooperalls. If you want to get rid of us, you'll have to split an atom or two.
by KreiderDesigns on Dec 10, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Does this mean when Toronto comes here we can douse them with syrup?
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Dec 10, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I prefer my waffles with ice cream personally.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I’m partial to the really dense ones you can get downtown with the fruit and chocolate mixed in. They’re way closer to a pastry than a light fluffy waffle, but they’re still awesome.
Although I can just imagine that 20 years from now one of us has taken our kids to the WFC for their first game, and when they ask why the floor is sticky we have to start off with “Well, that’s normal, but there was this one game against Toronto….”
by DragonGirl0583 on Dec 10, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Wolves of the Ice
Oscar Milton
If only that guy were Latvian… he could be Oskars Miltons.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Capitals analyst Craig Laughlan might want to think about his word choice a little more as he is analyzing goals. He is trying to call a Florida Panthers goal “shinny” (shinny meaning an informal type of street hockey), but he did not put enough stress on the “n” sound, so it sounds like he is calling the goal something else. Something hilarious.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
Those guys (Beninati and Laughlin) need a thesaurus.
Beninati in particular is egregious with respect to word choice.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Really, Leafs fans? Throwing waffles? Is there anyway we can call over the PPPers to find out what this is about?
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
Now I wonder if those waffles were frozen or they cooked them up. I’m sure they were frozen, but if they were somehow cooked, I’d totally mess with the fans minds and just pick it off the ice and eat it and be like “mmm mmm bitch!! that’s a tasty waffle!” lol.
I guess the waffles represent the holes in their defense.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 10, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Was Mike Leggo a linesman last night?
Perhaps they wanted to say, “Hey, Leggo – my Eggo!”
GET IT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Haha, I do get it. I’d totally say it.
But that seems like something some crazy player like Rinaldo would do if there was a waffle thrown on the ice, he will take a huge bit out of it Ozzy style (like he did with the bird) and just chew it (frozen or not) and eat it while staring down the guy who threw it. I’d honestly do that.
Or Pronger will just steal it.
Oooh oohh or better yet every time a Toronto fan throws a waffle on the ice, I’d shoot it at Toronto’s goal.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 10, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
I eat waffles frozen….
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
That article at Cpper and Blue be more interesting if I could actually find a straight up explanation of what a fargin “scoring chance” is.
I can’t find it now, but I remember reading them – and seeing an image – say that they counted scoring chances as any shot on goal from between the faceoff dots and below the top of the circle. The area almost looks like a rain drop, with the “point” of the raindrop being the goal.
But it’s a little more nuanced than that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I think there are scoring chances that don’t result in a shot on goal, right?
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
I believe so, but I’m not sure if Zona/Reynolds count those.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
okay this is interesting. I’ve been noticing how hockey stat folk like to use names of the stat inventors whereas baseball stat folk favor initialisms and acroymns. Fenwick ……VORP. Corsi……wOBA. Given the bajillion stats SABR geeks have, I’m kinda liking the name thing. It’s easier to assosicate though I’d imagine more hassle to use in formulas.
Very true.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
sounds like they might be delinating an area that gives a shooter the best opportunity to put a quality shot on goal. If so, it makes sense because the closer you get to the goal the less options you’d have. Like it be harder to shoot in the the upper area of the goal, (I think you guys say “top shelf”) since the inclination of the angle would start to increase as you approached the goal mouth esp, with the net minder in the way.
Even if it’s true that shooters have less options, they have a higher probability of scoring. Just looking at distance from the goal (which Madison Square Garden is unable to accurately judge), you’ll see that (generally) the closer one is to the goal, the higher percentage of shots go in.
Mathematically, the angle will be more difficult. But the closer you are, the more out of position the goalie is likely to be, which would probably come close to countering that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I’m just trying to figure out the tear drop shape could be until I find out what it really means. I’m intrigued.
Just asked Zona and he directed me here: http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/11/11/1807771/scoring-chances-microstats-and-why-they-matter
So, not as much of a teardrop as I initially thought.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I’d be interested to see if that relationship does exist. I know Gabe Desjardins did some work with shot distance and time between shots (to look at rebounds) and found a strong correlation. I’m just hypothesizing on why.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Sarah Baicker comes through with a story on how great Brian Boucher has been: [CSNPhilly]
To add: His even-strength save percentage is 0.915, higher than Marty Turco, Michal Neuvirth, Cory Schneider, Jose Theodore, Johan Hedberg, Martin Biron, Chris Mason, Martin Brodeur, Pascal Leclaire, Jonathan Bernier, JS Giguere, Antii Niemi, Rick DiPietro, Dan Ellis, Ty Conklin, Mike Smith, and others.
So… Does Tampa Bay want to trade for Michael Leighton?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions
I worry that Yzerman will get the best of any trade though.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
haha, not necessarily.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Crazy stairs!
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 10, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
This is what the Flyers’ cap situation sounds like.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
This is required reading for any Flyers capologist.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
So long…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, being a Flyers fan is totally an existentialist experience. It’s like, no matter what you do, it don’t matter in the end, ’cause the universe is as cold, empty, and uncaring as Nassau Coliseum, and even if you survive the concussions and sticks through the mask and other crap, you still wind up dead at the end.
[/high school lit class]
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I don’t fully understand what you’re saying because I didn’t read the link…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
It was more a joke of existentialism as a whole (a literary genre of which No Exit is an example). My high school lit teacher summed up their philosophy as “life’s a bitch, and then you die.”
To be a bit less trite, existentialist thought generally holds that there isn’t any intrinsic moral order to the universe, only that which is imposed by people. Thus, in the end, one is responsible for one’s own actions, not any sort of deity or society. This leads into all sorts of philosophical development regarding angst, the meaning of self, the lack of karmic balance, self versus other…it’s some really deep stuff, and I don’t understand it well. It’s generally very depressing on the surface, as bad stuff happens to people that don’t “deserve” it.
No Exit in particular is famous for the author’s line “Hell is other people.”
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Dude that is the coolest thing ever. I’ve never heard of that before but I am totally reading that article in depth because the idea is so cool! Thanks for letting me know about it!
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 10, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
It’s amazing how many times I’ve heard the Shepard-Risset Glissando without realizing what it was.
Back in college, I used to think the end of “Echoes” was “Pink Floyd trying to capture the sound that all of those twisted little faces make… you know, the ones you see in the walls when you’re on mushrooms that are happy and sad and joyous but frightened at the same time because they don’t want you to know too much.”
Yeah. Now you see why I don’t indulge in any mind- or body-altering substances anymore.
Seriously, I didn’t realize at the time how academic and studious Pink Floyd’s approach was. They went into the studio with clear visions of what they wanted and really did some innovative things in getting the results they got.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
I just listened to the end of Echoes when you wrote that, and I never realized that’s what it was. I know what you mean by the voices. But I never knew that was the Shepard-Risset Glissando, but it makes sense since it sounds like it’s rising but never actually rising, and now with that and the example on Wikipedia I know what it is, and I’m glad I’ve had a lot of science classes so I actually understand the nature of waves and how all of that works and how dissonance and resonance is made.
Now to somehow incorporate this sound into some metal music… I know I can do it someday whenever I find the right musicians to play with.
Floyd were masters in writing music, PERIOD. I’ve liked them since before I can remember, (one of my earliest memories is listening to Dark Side of the Moon in my basement on my Dad’s CD player when they were brand new and the first 2 albums he got on CD were Dark Side of the Moon and Yes Fragile, so both of those albums are part of that memory) and the more I study their music the more I am amazed. I think they’re from another world with their music.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 10, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
I’m worried too, he’ll probably use some jedi mind trick and trick Homer into taking back some salary and put us in almost as bad of a situation that we were in earlier.
He’ll tell Homer “Hey, take player x, he will give you a little bit of salary, but you’ll still be 600K under the cap!”
Homer will say “well that’s better than the $3.17 I have now.”
And Yzerman will high five his staff after the call and say “man, I fleeced this guy in a trade 3 times!!!”
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 10, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
If Yzerman wants to get the Lightning in the playoffs, he has to acquire a good goalie. I’m not necessarily saying he needs to get Leighton, but Ellis/Smith aren’t playoff-caliber.
by memphisbrando on Dec 10, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just afraid of what he’d give up in return.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
The Flyers aren’t in a position to take on any additional salary, so they wouldn’t get another Matt Walker (I hope). Yzerman must know Homer is desperate to unload a goalie so I’m not holding out hope that the return would be impressive.
by memphisbrando on Dec 11, 2010 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
The Lightning don’t the have defense that Leighton needs which is really want Leighton represents in a way, a shift in the NHL that favors spending on blue liners than the uber, FA overpaid goalie. He can can keep you in the game as long as you have the defense to reduce those 2nd scoring opportunites.
So Travis
you coordinate your outfit with the translator beforehand, or what?

by ohnickels on Dec 10, 2010 1:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Travis looks SO happy.
But I do like the purple shirt.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Is this the same shirt he had on for Gagne’s return? If so, he needs to start getting his dress shirt collection growing.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I think this was that game.
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Riiiiiiiight.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Nah, seriously though. I think that game was the only night I wore that shirt.
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Sad. Were you creeped out that I kept complimenting you on it?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly was…
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
hahahaha
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, are those pants brown cords? I think I have those exact same pants.
“Them pants ain’t big enuf fer the both of us, Hughes!”
/angry cowboy
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
You going to play tomorrow night?
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Oh, sorry. I forgot to reply to your email. I can’t, going out for a friends birthday.
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
psssssh…you ask for ice time, I provide, and both you are Geoff are no shows haha
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
I HAVE FINALS!
But no, seriously, enjoy passing to a guy’s back skate just so you can watch him fall.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, this is with people that play. It’s a pretty wide gap of skill level, from Novice to College, but everyone is nice. Plus I don’t know these people well enough to be able toy F with them like that and get away with it.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Boosh was in net that night, so should there really have been that much of a crowd around Bob? Doesn’t make sense to me, personally
by DragonGirl0583 on Dec 11, 2010 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Plus I just went through Facebook photos and Travis was wearing black pants that night.
But your research sounds a lot less creepy.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously, you are really pushing the limits…I’d recommend Travis pursue a restraining order.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Already filed with the courts.
I guess I did wear that shirt more than once… but its been quite some time since I’ve worn it.
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 11, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Carchidi looks like one pissed off dude in this photo.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
So I don’t have school today and was reading through some of the seven bajillion Flyers websites I read, and found some nifty YouTubes
Baby Ian with hair which made me kinda sad:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a-OTRwHT80&feature=player_embedded
Tough guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07RRt7Syr6o&feature=related
Bobrovsky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhnan7CiPDs&feature=player_embedded
Thats all. Did Bobs stop doing ass-taps? I haven’t seen one in a while.
Carcillo's number one lover fan and defender
I’ve seen the Lappy video before. Love that one.
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I didn’t want to overload the sentence for Tim McManus’ article, but since no one is talking about it:
- In a linked article, Tim defends Glens Falls by saying distance isn’t the problem (it’s not, and he firmly wins that point), then throws this in: “This is the way the Flyers approach their minor league system. It has everything to do with trading away draft picks and poor choice of veterans. We just have the bad fortune of having their affiliate here at a time when that has coincided spectacularly.” [PostStar]
- Luke Pither is going to get a chance this weekend, playing with Mike Testwuide and Denis Hamel. Come on Luke!
- The Phantoms just can’t get healthy, with Jon Kalinski joining Stefan Legein out of the lineup, and Andrew Rowe is questionable.
- With Pither’s promotion, Shane Harper gets a spot on the fourth line with Rob Bordson and Logan Stephenson.
- The Phantoms are going with “two scoring lines”, an “energy”/“checking” line, and a “WTF?” fourth line. Injuries or not, there is no depth on that team up front whatsoever.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 2:09 PM EST reply actions
I love that quote from him.
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Dec 10, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
"This is the way the Flyers approach their minor league system. It has everything to do with trading away draft picks and poor choice of veterans."
Wonderful. Seems like Homer never learned his lesson from these days.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Really long post. Sorry.
I always say, start with 2004 to see why the Phantoms are so bad.
1st rounder traded (eventually Rob Schremp), 3rd rounder (Danny Syvret), and Jeff Woywitka traded for Mike Comrie.
2nd rounder traded (eventually Brandon Dubinsky), 3rd rounder, and Guillaume Lefebvre traded for Tony Amonte.
3rd rounder – Rob Bellamy
4th rounder – R.J. Anderson
2005:
1st rounder traded (eventually Keenan McCardle) for 1st rounder (Steve Downie) and 2nd rounder (later traded to Phoenix with ANOTHER 2nd rounder for Dennis Gauthier. The two 2nd rounders became Cory Emmerton and Shawn Matthias); You make a good trade (trade down, get an extra second round pick), only to follow it up with two terrible trades, leaving you DOWN a draft pick. Only to:
2nd rounder traded (eventually Ondrej Pavelec) with Rick Kozak for Vladimir Malakhov
3rd rounder – Oskars Bartulis
4th rounder – Jeremy Duchesne
Wow. What a clustereff of two years drafting.
Then, do you want to see what holding onto draft picks does for a team? Look at 2006:
1st – Claude Giroux
2nd – Andreas Nodl
2nd – Mike Ratchuk (traded for Stefan Legein)
2nd – Denis Bodrov
3rd – Jon Matsumoto
4th – Joonas Lehtivuori
4th – Jakub Kovar
You have two Flyers, a former Phantoms leading scorer, a first-line AHL player (Legein), a top-4 AHL defenseman, a starting goalie in the KHL, and Bodrov. GREAT YEAR OF DRAFTING.
How about an encore? 2007:
1st – JVR
2nd – Kevin Marshall
off to a good start…
3rd – Garrett Klotz
OOOOOOOOH FAIL
4th – traded for Todd Fedoruk
DOUBLE FAIL
And what’s most frustrating? They turned their two 6th round picks into Jon Kalinski and Pat Maroon.
The terrible drafting strategy dates from 2004. They have a great 2006, only to eff it all up in 2007. 2008 is already looking like a lost year (Sbisa, Bourdon, and DeSerres were the only picks in the first five rounds), and 2009 saw Adam Morrison and Simon Bertilsson as the only picks in the first 4 rounds.
The Flyers draft strategy is getting better (no more Garrett Klotz’s or Rob Bellamy’s) but they just keep trading them away.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Boosh went Christmas shopping with Hartsy in Boston today. Did you get him anything?
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
I got him a pen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
That’s creepy.
That said, I’ll get one for Darroll and Don can get one for Andreas.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Chico needs a pen!! I tink I should get Powe, Giroux, and Bobs a pen, just in case, cause Russians need to write too
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Back off of Powe, he is Mike’s!
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Damn right!
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Anyone ever told you guys how creepy all this is?
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
HA! I’m the exception. I can obsess all I want. Over all of them. All of them!!
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
I find you to be the creepiest by far…and that includes Geoff and the sign Shaun made for him about Boosh.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
Why is that?
and Mike B on D its cause the power was out and I just wanted a waffle so I ate it frozen and it was good. Go try it.
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Tell me! /Sad eyes please?
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 10, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
It’s just a joke on the internet.
Geoff has Boosh, Mike's got Powe, Nodl is all mine!
Is this the right room for an argument?
…explain furher. Not in the mood to think right now, I had 5 hours of sleep and woke up at 5:30 for a game haha I’l probly fall asleep soon. Well that was a random tidbit of information.
Please do explain
Laperriere is my hero
Carcillo's my lover
Bobrovsky's my savior
Hockeys my life
by Cillo stache on Dec 11, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Geoff when the suck they go after picks when they are winning they give them away.
Also how many of those picks actually came back and hurt us.
Brandon Dubinsky is the best player up there and with all the Centers we have I am not sure where the hell they could fit him.
Geoff when the suck they go after picks when they are winning they give them away.
How does that make sense? And when they suck, they still traded away their 4th round pick, they traded a 3rd, acquired a 1st, then traded it. Acquired a 3rd, and traded it. Traded a 2nd.
So… with only one year of them sucking to prove your theory, it falls flat.
How many of those picks came back and hurt the Flyers? Look at the Phantoms. 3-20-2. But of course, you don’t think that hurts the team.
But regardless. The Rob Schremp pick could have been Cory Schneider, Jeff Schultz, Mark Fistric, or Mike Green (players taken immediately after).
Brandon Dubinsky could have been Alex Goligoski, David Krejci, or Martins Karsums (who scored 41 points in 46 AHL games in 08-09).
Either way, how can you ignore the fact that the ONLY year the Flyers stockpile picks, they get two NHL players, your leading scorer in the AHL for two straight years, a top-4 defenseman in the AHL, a starting goalie in the second best league in the world, and a guy you turn into a top-line AHL forward?
You can’t argue the lack of draft picks didn’t hurt the organization, so why even try?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Every GM on every team could go through every draft and could have taken this guys or that guy that turned out to be players in the 3rd or 4th round. The whole league passed those guys over 3 – 4 times, not just the Flyers.
You can’t argue the lack of draft picks didn’t hurt the organization, so why even try?
I am not arguing that but a lot of the time that is Monday Quarterback. Some of these moves helped a lot short term. And if we would have won the cup would have been looked in an entirely different light.
Tony Amonte scored 20 goals plus 8 pts in the 2004 run.
Comrie turned into Sean Burke, Branko Randojveic and Ben Eager. And Burke played a major role in getting the Flyers an Atlantic Title holding down the fort for Esche while he was hurt.
Same could be said for Alexi Zhamnov who had 18pts in 20 games as a Flyer also in 2004 filling in for an injured Roenick who after taking that puck in the face might not have been back to score that iconic goal against Toronto in Game 6.
Malhakov also played 16 playoff games in that 2004 run scoring 7pts.
Yeah they invested a lot in that 2004 run and didn’t win. But that was one hell of a run and a lot memories and a lot of fun. Looking back would you take won’t to give back all those memories for a bunch of 2nd round picks and 1st round loss. I don’t know if I would.
They were also able to trade for Kimmo and Hartnell using some of the picks they got for Forsberg and Trade for Pronger as well with Picks.
Meszaros trade for a 2nd rounder is looking good so far as well.
The Meszaros trade will never look good for a 2nd rounder. You can’t just sit back and look at the end result and decide it was worth it without considering the other factors.
1. That move boxed Holmgren in with Gagne forcing him to get a 4th round pick and terrible contract in return.
2. He wasn’t worth a 2nd round pick when we traded for him. Not just that, he wasn’t worth much of anything. Paul Holmgren traded a 2nd round pick for a 5th defenseman with a 4 million dollar cap hit who last year had 17 points and was a -14. He could have had him for much cheaper, in which case I might be open to forgiving problem #1 to an extent because his play would have warranted losing Gagne.
3. Look at the Phantoms. Argument over.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Dec 10, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Every GM on every team could go through every draft and could have taken this guys or that guy that turned out to be players in the 3rd or 4th round. The whole league passed those guys over 3 – 4 times, not just the Flyers.
I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about, since I named you a first round pick and a second round pick. Further, I’m not saying “oh, that was a bad pick, they should have picked so-and-so instead.” You said none of the draft picks the Flyers traded hurt the team, since only one of them was any good, and he played a position of strength.
Well, if you don’t want a center – and since you think the Flyers are so smart – the Flyers WOULDN’T have drafted Rob Schremp or Brandon Dubinsky. So who were the highest ranked players still on the board at that pick? The guys drafted right behind them. Goalie, and three defensemen. All of them phenomenal. Or a defenseman, another center, or a solid AHL player.
None of those guys were Flyers because management didn’t care to keep their picks.
Next, how many deadline deals do you need to see in order to realize that while acquiring Tony Amonte may have worked, Adam Oates didn’t. While acquiring Zhamnov may have worked, Dennis Gauthier didn’t.
For every “look, that short-term trade where we gave up a lot of the future worked!” I can show you a “look, that short-term trade where we gave up a lot of the future was a terrible decision!” You have two examples. Congratulations.
Mike Comrie was terrible. Period. Jeff Woywitka, a first, and a third for Mike Comrie? Oh man, he turned into Sean Burke? Terrible. Branko Radivojevic? He played, what, 50 games for the Flyers? Ben Eager? A glorified goon?
Are you seriously saying the Mike Comrie trade was good? That has to be one of the worst trades the Flyers made this decade.
Alexei Zhamnov: Where did he come from? I didn’t bring him up.
Vladimir Malakhov: He wouldn’t have been necessary had the Flyers not traded: Dmitry Yushkevich, Jeff Woywitka, Eric Weinrich, Jim Vandermeer, and Chris Therien JUST THAT SEASON. And they had Randy Jones, Freddy Meyer, and Dennis Seidenberg on the Phantoms.
So let’s see: The Flyers trade five defensemen during the season, acquire Danny Markov and Mattias Timander, then trade a defenseman, a second round pick, and Colin Fraser to get Malakhov despite having three future NHL defensemen on the Phantoms. And Seidenberg played 3 playoff games for the Flyers that year, that Malakhov can definitely be looked at in a vacuum.
As far as Kimmo, Hartnell, Pronger, and Meszaros acquired through trading picks: Not only did I not bring this up, you are proving my point to a T. Two of them were about to become free agents, and you traded for them while also overpaying them. Great. Awesome. Meszaros was incredibly stupid since they had tons of other options if they waited 2 hours. Or just traded Simon Gagne for him straight up.
How about this: Jeremy Roenick and a third to clear cap space due to them signing Forsberg. Brilliant move. I mean, not only do you trade an amazing player to get an amazing player, you get “futures” in return. And give up a draft pick. Some great foresight there.
Seidenberg and a fourth for Nedved and a fourth. Brilliant move. I mean, why worry about next season when you can get an aging, unproductive forward?
How about Josh Gratton, and 2nd, and a 2nd for Dennis Gauthier? That’s a great move, right?
How about a 3rd for Jaroslav Modry?
What about Alexandre Picard and a 2nd for Vinny Prospal?
What about a 1st for Steve Eminger and a 3rd? Because Steve Eminger is a talent you just can’t find in the free agent market. Or in your minor league system. Or with a 1st round pick.
Lastly, because I’m bored, Dennis Gauthier and a 2nd for Patrick Hersley and Ned Lukacevic. I mean, this one is just a steal for the Flyers. Hersley and Lukacevic tore it up for the Flyers. Good thing they only gave up a 2nd round pick instead of a 1st, or that trade might have been even.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Geoff I am not say your points are valid you make good points I am just presenting the other side. I have no idea why I wasting time on this really it is all so far in the past.
But here we go MarioD style.
For every "look, that short-term trade where we gave up a lot of the future worked!" I can show you a "look, that short-term trade where we gave up a lot of the future was a terrible decision!" You have two examples. Congratulations.
So then we have a 50 – 50 shot at making a good deadline deal for the playoffs. As a GM do you not take that chance? I do maybe you don’t I am asking you.
Sean Burke? Terrible
2004 Regular Season 15GP 6-5-2 0.910 SV PCT 1 SO
We beat the Devils by 1pt for the Atlantic Division Title. The difference between 3th and 6th place and home ice over NJ. And potential the difference between a very memorable run and a 1st round exit. Considering the Flyers won games 1 and 2 at home both games 3-2.
Vladimir Malakhov: He wouldn’t have been necessary had the Flyers not traded: Dmitry Yushkevich, Jeff Woywitka, Eric Weinrich, Jim Vandermeer, and Chris Therien JUST THAT SEASON. And they had Randy Jones, Freddy Meyer, and Dennis Seidenberg on the Phantoms.
I don’t want to go into a playoff run with so many rookies on my blueline Jones and Meyer were not ready for the NHL especially for the playoffs.
As far as Kimmo, Hartnell, Pronger, and Meszaros acquired through trading picks: Not only did I not bring this up, you are proving my point to a T. Two of them were about to become free agents, and you traded for them while also overpaying them. Great. Awesome. Meszaros was incredibly stupid since they had tons of other options if they waited 2 hours.
You can not say that Kimmo and Hartnell would have every signed for the worst team in the league without being 1) Overpaid and 2) Traded for so the Flyers could negotiate prior to July 1st. In theory yeah they were going to be free agents and we could have offered the contracts but time and time again money is not what players are looking for Kimmo could have went to Detroit for example for a slightly less salary you never know. Also had Kimmo and Hartnell not signed here earlier we also might not have gotten Danny Briere to sign here as a free-agent either. Part of what attracted him was the direction the was going in.
Danny himself serving as an example of players who turned down more money to play somewhere else they preferred. The whole team could be completely different right now. But yeah we would have had a couple draft picks. That Forsberg trade build this team.
You are still going to stick to your dislike for the Meszaros trade. He a 25 year old D-Man who is leading the league in plus minus playing close to 20 minutes per game. In 3 years from now he could develop into the best D-Man on the team anchoring the blueline for a decade. I am not sure you can get better value for a second round pick.
And of course we made some bad trades but there are plenty of good trades in there too. I am not a fan of every trade or every move but you have to take the good with the bad. I am very glad the organization is aggressive in pursuing the Championship. That aggressive nature cost us picks but standing pat and draft picks and not overpaying for UFAs doesn’t work much better. Just look at Buffalo Sabers as the example or the Philadelphia Eagles in NFL. Perennial good teams that never has the balls to take a chance they could put them over the top.
So then we have a 50 – 50 shot at making a good deadline deal for the playoffs. As a GM do you not take that chance? I do maybe you don’t I am asking you.
Except it’s not 50-50. You named two, I named many, many more.
2004 Regular Season 15GP 6-5-2 0.910 SV PCT 1 SO
We beat the Devils by 1pt for the Atlantic Division Title. The difference between 3th and 6th place and home ice over NJ. And potential the difference between a very memorable run and a 1st round exit. Considering the Flyers won games 1 and 2 at home both games 3-2.
Yes, Sean Burke was the reason the Flyers beat the Devils by 1 point. His 30th best out of 45 save percentage that year was just phenomenal. What would the Flyers have done without his mediocre goaltending? Maybe they would have used the guy who had a 0.961 save percentage in 3 NHL games that year. The same guy who had a 0.924 save percentage in 49 AHL games that season.
No, Antero Niittymaki wouldn’t have been able to put up 2.55/.910. Except he probably would have.
I don’t want to go into a playoff run with so many rookies on my blueline Jones and Meyer were not ready for the NHL especially for the playoffs.
Wow, you really don’t check facts, do you?
Without Malakhov, the Flyers would have had 5 defensemen (Ragnarsson, Pitkanen, Johnsson, Markov, and Timander) for the playoffs. Adding Dennis Seidenberg would have changed the number of rookies in that group from 1 to… 1.
See, the year before, Seidenberg played 58 games for the Flyers, finishing a plus-8. For some reason, the Flyers didn’t like him. Even though he scored 19 points in 33 AHL games that year, finishing a plus-11. But obviously, he wasn’t NHL ready because you say he wasn’t. (41 points in 79 games and a plus-18 the following year suggest he was though.)
time and time again money is not what players are looking for Kimmo could have went to Detroit for example for a slightly less salary you never know. Also had Kimmo and Hartnell not signed here earlier we also might not have gotten Danny Briere to sign here as a free-agent either. Part of what attracted him was the direction the was going in.
Cleary, you never know. But you also don’t know they wouldn’t have signed here for just as much money without giving up draft picks. You also don’t know if Briere would have signed here regardless, so I read this paragraph as:
“But, but, you don’t know! Straw man! Ha! Gotcha!”
That Forsberg trade build this team.
Really?
Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick built this team?
I don’t have to explain to most people, but I think Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Simon Gagne, Claude Giroux, James van Riemsdyk, and Braydon Coburn had something to do with “building this team”.
You are still going to stick to your dislike for the Meszaros trade.
Yes, yes I will. For reasons you continue to ignore. And everything you brought up I’ve already addressed. Next.
That aggressive nature cost us picks but standing pat and draft picks and not overpaying for UFAs doesn’t work much better. Just look at Buffalo Sabers as the example or the Philadelphia Eagles in NFL. Perennial good teams that never has the balls to take a chance they could put them over the top.
First, the Flyers have won just as many championships as those “ball-less” teams you mention.
Second, let’s look at Buffalo’s draft picks: Tomas Vanek, Drew Stafford, Clarke MacArthur, Andrej Sekera, Patrick Kaleta, Marc-Andre Gragnani, Jhonas Enroth, Tyler Myers, Tyler Ennis, Luke Adam, and others.
Who led the Sabres on their way to the division title last year? Derek Roy (2001), Jason Pominville (2001), Tomas Vanek (2003), Tyler Myers (2008), Drew Stafford (2004), Clarke MacArthur (2003), Paul Gaustad (2000), Henrik Tallinder (1997), Patrick Kaleta (2004), Andrej Sekera (2004), Tyler Ennis (2008), and Ryan Miller (1999).
No, drafting your own players never works.
Lastly, since you’ll say they never won anything, let’s look at the last couple Stanley Cup winners:
Chicago: Toews (2006), Kane (2007), Keith (2002), Patrick Sharp (where’d he come from?), Byfuglien (2003), Bolland (2004), Seabrook (2003), Hjalmarsson (2005), and Brouwer (2004).
Pittsburgh: Crosby (2005), Malkin (2004), Fleury (2003), Staal (2006), Letang (2005), Goligoski (2004), Kennedy (2004), Talbot (2002), Orpik (2000), and Scuderi (1998).
What were the biggest acquisitions? Chicago: Marian Hossa – Free Agent; Antii Niemi – Free Agent; Patrick Sharp – Shrewd trade; Brian Campbell – Free Agent.
Pittsburgh: Bill Guerin – 3rd round pick; Ruslan Fedotenko – Free Agent; Sergei Gonchar – Free Agent; Kris Kunitz – Trade (with Tangradi, 2nd round pick) for Ryan Whitney.
Notice a trend? Teams not making big trades, but building from within. With draft picks. So, you can have your ballsy teams, I’ll take the ones that build from within, add a few free agents, make some minor moves, develop prospects, and adjust as necessary. Because that works.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
You’re putting a lot of effort into proving the obvious.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Dec 10, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
I am, I really am.
To me, it’s the only way.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
CHI are two teams that didn’t make big trades and won. They also had 10 years of shitty teams to build their teams with top 5 picks.
How about Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa Bay and Detroit as teams that have won with trades and free agency.
Anaheim got Pronger and Niedermeyer the linch pins of that teams success.
Carolina – Mark Recchi, Doug Weight, Brindamour, Stillman all aquired. Doug Weight and Reechi at the deadline of that season for draft picks.
Detroit – did got out big for Rafalski but yeah Detroit is generally the exception and not the rule. Hasek did help the team a lot that season as well.
Tampa Bay traded for Khabibulin who was huge for team and Cory Stillman who had 80 pts.
Tampa, Carolina, and Anaheim made moves gave up plenty picks to get huge pieces that won the cup. The Flyers have tried to do the same.
And I never said drafting wasn’t important. My strategy is draft a young core and fill in the holes. The Flyers have done exactly that since the lockout for the most part. Richards, Giroux, Carter, JVR are our core. We also traded for young players and not older guys pass their prime that can become core players like Coburn, Carle, Mesaros. All those players are around 25 years old.
Drafting is important I just don’t see it as the be all end all of success.
And I will take Pronger and Kimmo and have a shitty AHL team any day of the week.
The Flyers don’t just give up picks to get huge pieces. Yes we gave up two first rounders for Pronger, was it worth it? Yeah probably was, Emerson Emet might turn out to be a really good player but Chris Pronger was a major reason we are Eastern Conference Winners. So I’ll take that.
It’s that they give up picks for Dan Carcillo, for Andrej Meszaros, and for the other examples that Geoff brought up.
Plus, when you trade draft picks you can essentially only trade for veterans to teams that are looking to rebuild. If you want a young prime all star player who you want to build a team around, you need to draft guys like Richards, Carter, JVR and Giroux, because we sure aren’t gonna give those guys up in any trade. This team could’ve had Brandon Dubinsky or Mike Green or John Carlson if it didn’t give up draft picks. Good luck convincing the Capitals to trade Green or Carlson now.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Dec 11, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Thank you.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
Plus, when you trade draft picks you can essentially only trade for veterans to teams that are looking to rebuild.
This is also no longer the case. You trade picks for teams looking to dump salary now. Every trade with the exception and Pronger, Kimmo, Walker, and Jason Smith under Paul Holmgren was for player under the age of 28.
Leino
Upshall
Carcillo
Eminger
Meszaros
Lupul
Coburn
Parent
Hartnell
too name a few
And now a days the older vets get dumped at the deadline for practically nothing. Reechi and Guerin prime examples of that.
But the big names moved at the deadline are free agents to be or players with cheap expiring contracts which their club is not going to renew. Like Jo Bo and Poinkarsky, Jordon Leopold etc.
Who knew Bobby Clarke joined BSH with the username of “chrislanci?”
by memphisbrando on Dec 11, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Notice a trend? Teams not making big trades, but building from within. With draft picks. So, you can have your ballsy teams, I’ll take the ones that build from within, add a few free agents, make some minor moves, develop prospects, and adjust as necessary. Because that works.
This is how championships are won, with the possible exception of the 1994 New York Rangers. The problem is that the Flyers use the draft to an extent, but use trades and free agency to fill in too many holes. And then they create different holes by having no cap space.
Draft picks / undrafted free agents on the roster: Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, Nodl, Powe, Wellwood, Bartulis, Bob, Boucher
Free agents: Briere, Hartnell, Timonen, O’Donnell, Betts, Zherdev, Shelley
Trade / Re-signed / Waiver Pickups: Pronger, Carle, Coburn, Meszaros, Walker, Leighton, Leino, Carcillo
The Flyers rely too heavily on trades and free agency for everything except for centermen. The fact that they traded for 5 of their 8 defensemen speaks volumes about their propensity to draft shitty defensemen.
And that is the problem.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Do you not remember R.J. Anderson? Chris Zarb? Alexandre Picard? Rosario Ruggeri? Jussi Timonen?
Part of the problem is the Flyers either a) don’t draft defensemen early; or b) Give up on them too soon.
From 1999 through 2005, the Flyers only drafted 4 defensemen in the first three rounds. Jeff Woywitka (0 games), Joni Pitkanen (206 games), Alexandre Picard (72 games), and Oskars Bartulis.
None of those guys was given a fair enough shot, even Picard (now a 193 game NHL vet). Are they amazing defensemen? No. But Woywitka is a solid #5, Pitkanen would be a very good #3, and both Picard and Bartulis make decent #6 defensemen.
Throw in Dennis Seidenberg and Janne Niinimaa and you have some evidence of the Flyers never giving their homegrown defensemen a fair shot.
It’s for this reason I sincerely doubt both Bourdon and Marshall will be Flyers. And I would put the odds at 1% that three of Bourdon, Marshall, Gustafsson, or Lehtivuori reach 82 games played for the Flyers. Right now, there are too many terrible contracts in front of them.
Mike Ratchuk, Denis Bodrov, Kevin Marshall, Luca Sbisa, Marc-Andre Bourdon
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
You both realize that the Flyers have the second best all time winning percentage in the History of the NHL. So I don’t think this method doesn’t work.
Seriously?
Because in 43 years, the Flyers have never saved draft picks or built from within. Therefore, because they have a high winning percentage, their “screw the draft” strategy must work?
Running out of counter-arguments?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
You serious think the Flyers have a screw the draft strategy. I don’t think it has been that way of the last few seasons. And I don’t care where they get there young players from Draft or trades as look as you get young players that can grow together.
Trading for picks for one year rentals and aging stars pass their prime is one thing. Trading for Norris Calibur defense and 23 year up and comers in something completely different.
You missed the point completely. I think the sarcasm flew over your head. When the Flyers were at their most successful in the 70s and 80s it is because they understood the importance of the draft. How many cup winning teams have drafted at #1 overall in the next season? That was an amazingly shrewd move and got the Flyers their future captain and also a major contributor in the 76 playoffs.
Also, look the GREAT young players, the guys that are truly the foundation of a franchise, are not traded after they are drafted. If they are, they are massively overpaid for (again, Phil Kessel). If you don’t draft and think you’d rather go around trading for young players, then you will get some nice mid-level young players (your Coburns, Carles, Meszaroses) and more often than not they will be traded from teams that think they might not be as valuable as once thought (again your Coburns, Carles, Meszaroses, think even how we got rid of Pitkanen). But you will not get Mike Green (who could’ve been a Flyer). You act as if the 23 year old up and comers we trade for are the foundation of this franchise. They are not. The foundation of this franchise is a group of players that the Flyers drafted and developed and will never let go.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Dec 11, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Up front they are but that one stems form the extremely deep draft that was the Richards and Carter draft year and guess what they traded to get that second pick in the 1st round that became Carter. They also traded to get that pick with became Joni Pitkanen. The blueline was build by trading for young up and comers.
Every draft is not equal the Flyers were smart to get picks for that deep draft year but recently that drafts haven’t been as strong. So why hang on to those picks which are late in the draft anyway.
Also Pitkanen was traded for Lupul another under 25 year old player. Not some old over the hill guy.
I didn’t say Pitkanen was traded for a vet. I’m just saying that neither Pitkanen nor Lupul will ever be superstars like Richards and Carter. Because if they were they wouldn’t have ever been traded. They are nice mid-level young players that get traded.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Dec 11, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick built this team?
Those two picks turned into Kimmo and Hartnell so yeah that trade was instrumental in the success of the team because Kimmo has been that good and important before we got Pronger.
This team was built on Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, Scott Hartnell, and Kimmo Timonen.
Got it. Four players, two of whom are not even on the team any more, built this team. You essentially are arguing that Scott Hartnell, Kimmo Timonen, Dan Carcillo, and a 3rd round pick built this team. Wait, no, might as well cancel that 3rd round pick out since we gave up a 2nd.
So… Hartnell, Timonen, and Carcillo “build(sic) this team”.
I think you’ve gone round the bend, Chris.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
As you pointed out The Flyers have how many drafted players on this roster. It is not like they don’t keep any of their picks and it is those drafted players that built this team.
Then how can you say this.
So, you can have your ballsy teams, I’ll take the ones that build from within, add a few free agents, make some minor moves, develop prospects, and adjust as necessary.
You also have to stop bringing up Pittsburgh, Washington, and Chi it worked for them because the drafted super high top 5 picks. For the Flyers it would mean 5 straight 15-20 picks and building that way doesn’t work unless you have more loaded draft classes.
Also perennial shitty teams that also draft high year after and year and have yet to win anything include Florida, and Islanders even Tampa is going to struggle for a few more years with Stamkos and Hedmen.
In my opinion you have to have you really bad season when the superstars are coming through and few more really bad years after that to solely rely on building through the draft.
And also since Pittsburgh is no longer a shitty team even they have abandoned that model and traded picks and prospects at the deadline in the last three seasons. Getting Guerin, Ponikarosky, Leopold, Hossa etc..
How hard it is to understand that drafting players is the best way?
If the Flyers hadn’t traded a first round pick for Steve Eminger, they could have had John Carlson for $845k for the next two years instead of Andrej Meszaros for $4 million, AND a second round pick.
Vladimir Malakhov was extremely unnecessary, since the Flyers had Dennis Seidenberg, and they could have also had Ondrej Pavelec, Justin Abdelkaer, or Paul Stastny.
Mike Comrie didn’t do shit for the Flyers, and he cost them Jeff Woywitka, as well as one of Cory Schneider, Mark Fistric, or Mike Green.
Why was Denis Gauthier necessary? He cost them two second round picks.
Why trade for Todd Fedoruk?
What about Jaroslav Modry?
None of these players were any good, none of them helped the Flyers win games, all of them are easily replaceable on the free agent market, or from within if they had kept their draft picks.
How you don’t understand that the Flyers are being hurt by always trading draft picks for shitty players is beyond me. Even when you see how well the Flyers can do when they have draft picks (look to 2004 or 2006, like you frequently do), you have no idea how important building from within is.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
whoa
so you guys, during a tour of the Bristol Meyers Squibb factory, were like having it out when you accidently threw each other off a catwalk and into the industrial vat of Ritalin being cooked.
I don’t know what this is, haha.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
When they suck, they should go after picks.
When they’re winning, they should STILL go after picks unless they are in a position to “win it all.”
One reason the Flyers were so competitive for so long after the Cup years was that, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, they traded the members of their Cup teams to bad or expansion teams in exchange for THEIR draft picks. This trend started as early as 1975, when the Flyers traded Bill Clement to the expansion, 30-years-before-Ovechkin-Washington Capitals, in exchange for the #1 overall pick in the draft (Mel Bridgman).
They also did this in 1978, trading Orest Kindrachuk, Ross Lonsberry and Tom Bladon to Pittsburgh for their 1st-round pick (Behn Wilson, who latter became Doug Crossman and the second-rounder which became Scott Mellanby.)
This strategy worked until Bob Clarke’s shitty draft picks filled the Flyers’ farm system in the late 1980s. Holmgren, on the other hand, is generally pretty good at drafting. I wish he did more of it.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
Bob Clarke’s shitty draft picks filled the Flyers’ farm system in the late 1980s
To wit:
Craig Fisher
Jeff Harding
Kerry Huffman
Tony Horacek
Pat Murray
Glen Seabrooke
Jesus. Russ Farwell did a better job than Clarkie.
Go here. Look at the selections made between 1985-1989. Then, look at the selections made between 1990-1993.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
While 85-89 was atrocious, so was 1992.
1996-1999 wasn’t particularly good either, with a few exceptions.
2002 was a waste. 2004, the Flyers didn’t even make picks. That was the year they let Mr. and Mrs. Lindros choose their players.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
While 85-89 was atrocious
Clarke.
1996-1999 wasn’t particularly good either, with a few exceptions.
Clarke.
2002 was a waste.
Clarke, with some input from Holmgren. Holmgren became assistant GM in 1999; I’m not sure when he became really “in charge” of drafting guys, but he did so during Clarke’s tenure as GM. Plus, at least 2002 got us Joni Pitkanen, which we eventually parlayed into The Pronger.
2004, the Flyers didn’t even make picks. That was the year they let Mr. and Mrs. Lindros choose their players.
Those guys were The Phantoms of 2006-08, roughly. Not saying much.
"Darroll can't see it, blind to the eyes;
He came up in your face OOPS POWE SURPRISE!"
Man-crushin' on #36 since he hit his "absolute ceiling" as a rookie in 2008.
And they’ve already shipped 2nd round picks for the next 2 years to Phoenix and Tampa Bay. For too long, the team’s philosophy is getting better through free agency and trades. In a cap world, you need good prospects to replace veteran players when they become too expensive to keep.
by memphisbrando on Dec 10, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Glens Falls — the AHL version of the NHL’s Long Island.
by memphisbrando on Dec 10, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
First?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 10, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Aggregated power rankings for the week: [From the Rink]
Every week I do a double-take, thinking this says “aggravated power rankings.” Dunno why. But there it is.
Lightning strikes once, Hextall strikes twice!
Btw, I taped the wrong game feed so i watched the TSN broadcast. Well done of course.
Brendan Ranford got a nice mention.
They talked about the former cups winners from the Ducks that were in the game.
But they didn’t mention that you had former Hartford Whalers in the game as well.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
Hey Philly Friends
The Bruins play you guys tomorrow. I just want your thoughts on the matchup.
In Lax We Trust- Offical Pro Lacrosse Blog of SBN
Tim Thomas’ legs will be broken by a freak accident. Muahahaha.
Although seriously, I’d like the guy to get the flu for a day or two.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Dec 10, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Well it all depends on whether Travis finally has that Savard-rocket ready.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Dec 10, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
May 14, 2010 was a great day.
Formerly known as JFein.
Author at SB Nation's Philadelphia Union blog, The Brotherly Game. Follow me on Twitter
by Justin F. on Dec 11, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Haha, all of these are funny, but this one is the best… rec’d
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will always bleed Orange and Black.
by Lindbergh 31 on Dec 11, 2010 2:41 AM EST up reply actions
Chris:
Denis Gauthier played 60 games for the Flyers. He was brought in two months after the Flyers traded Dennis Seidenberg. Why would you trade Seidenberg for Nedved, only to then go back to the same team and say “crap, we gave you a defenseman, now we need another one.”
That cost the Flyers two second round picks.
Then they just have to have a goon, because, obviously, Todd Fedoruk is crucial. There goes a 4th round pick.
Move to 07-08 and the Flyers kid themselves into thinking they can go from worst to first. So they go get Vinny Prospal. Yes, Prospal played well for them. But he cost Alexandre Picard and a 2nd round pick. Why be “ballsy” when your team simply isn’t that good?
But most egregious, the Flyers need some defense going into the 08-09 season. So rather than go the free agent route, they trade a 1st round pick (John Carlson!) for Steve Eminger and a 3rd. Steve Eminger is terrible. He’s awful. He is easily replaceable in free agency, but the Flyers give up a first round pick for him.
Two weeks later, the Flyers realize they had Denis Gauthier all along! Crap, guess we don’t need him. Let’s trade him. But let’s throw in a second round pick and get Patrick Hersley and Ned Lukacevic in return. Clearly, that’s a move that will improve the team.
You may remember the name “Ned Lukacevic”, because the Flyers later traded him for… a defenseman. Andrew Alberts. Why can’t the Flyers deal with their defensemen? They give up a first for Steve Eminger, then realize, crap, we have too many defensemen. Let’s trade a guy who’s just as good as Eminger for nothing, giving up a draft pick in the process.
Wait, now we need another defensemen because we just traded Gauthier. Let’s trade the guy we got in the Gauthier trade for Andrew Alberts. Shit, we have to throw in a 4th round pick as well. Crap, Eminger really is terrible, so let’s trade him, a former 1st round pick, and a fourth round pick for Matt Carle – yes, this puts the Flyers WELL over the salary cap, but we have Danny Briere on LTIR, so that’s not a problem…
Let’s recap: The Flyers give up John Carlson for Steve Eminger, when we could just sign an equally shitty defenseman. But now we have too many defensemen, so let’s trade Denis Gauthier AND a 2nd for two terrible players. Start the season, realize shit, we don’t have enough defensemen, trade one of those terrible players for Andrew Alberts. Wow, Steve Eminger really is terrible, so let’s trade Eminger, Downie, and a 4th for Carle and a 3rd, putting us over the cap.
That’s: Steve Downie, Denis Gauthier, Steve Eminger, Ned Lukacevic, a 1st, a 2nd, and a 4th for Andrew Alberts, Matt Carle, and a 3rd. BUT WAIT, There’s more: AND salary cap problems down the line, costing the Flyers Ossi Vaananen, Glen Metropolit, Scottie Upshall, and a 2nd for Dan Carcillo.
And that’s not even touching the Mike Comrie, Vladimir Malakhov, Alexei Zhamnov, Danny Markov, Tony Amonte, Eric Chouinard (He cost a SECOND ROUND PICK), or Adam Oates trade.
While you like bringing up the Jeff Carter and Joni Pitkanen trades, the Flyers got Carter and a 2nd for Daymond Langkow. That’s a great move. No idea why Phoenix did that. Pitkanen cost Ruslan Fedotenko and two second round picks. That one makes a lot more sense for Tampa Bay. So there’s one good and one bad. What does that matter when you run through all the other trades I just explained?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 2:41 PM EST reply actions
Both my “n” and “d” keys are starting to wear out. But that’s in, in over two years of having this laptop.
You’d think it would be worse though, right? Thank you Steve Jobs for manufacturing good shit.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Dec 11, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions

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