The Albany-to-Charlotte Move, And It's Impact On The Adirondack Phantoms
The Albany River Rats have officially announced that they will be moving to Charlotte, North Carolina next season. The new team will take the name of the current ECHL team located in Charlotte, the Checkers. The move locates them closer to their NHL affiliate, the Carolina Hurricanes.
There are a few things to know here from our perspective. First, since the River Rats were and are the biggest rival to the Adirondack Phantoms, the move will seriously effect the Flyers farm club. At the same time, the Albany area might not be without AHL hockey for too long.
Here's what Rats' ownership said in a letter to season ticket holders today:
What [the sale of the team] doesn't mean is that AHL hockey in Albany is history. [Rats owner] Mr. Robb retains the Albany River Rats name, infrastructure and staff in this deal.
Bob Belger, General Manager of the Times Union Center and [River Rats President Garen Szablewski] have been working on a number of different opportunities to bring an AHL team to Albany for next season. We continue to be optimistic that one of these opportunites will come to fruition and that we will soon be able to announce the details of a new team for the 2010-11 season. It is even possible that a new team could continue to use the Albany River Rats name.
This could simply be ownership trying to make sure that people turn out for the remainder of the season, but it also could be the truth. Are there options out there?
From today's Albany Times-Union:
Belber has been working the phone ever since he learned that his building could be without a hockey tenant, which fills 40 regular-season home dates per season.
He mentioned two specific scenarios he is working on, but declined to mention the teams he has negotiated with.
"In one case, there's an AHL team or franchise that's actually owned by an NHL team," Belber said, "where the preference in their part would be to sell the team to a local owner and keep the affiliation with the NHL parent team. In another case, there's a situation where one of the AHL owners is interested in just relocating the franchise and not having a local owner."
Belber had plans to meet with the latter group in the afternoon.
Among the teams rumored to be looking elsewhere are the Hartford WolfPack, owned by the New York Rangers, and Lowell Devils. The New Jersey Devils were affiliated with the River Rats for the first 13 years of the AHL's team's existence.
Other possibilities mentioned have been the Bridgeport Sound Tigers (Islanders) and Portland Pirates (Sabres), but both teams have lease agreements with their cities.
"We've had some very positive discussions," Belber said. "A proposal was sent to us (Monday). About a half hour after receiving the proposal, I got a call, saying they wanted to come over (Tuesday). I'm as optimistic as you could possibly be, knowing that I have a very interested AHL owner that is connected, in my opinion, with one of the best NHL teams in the Northeast."
So, it's very possible that the AHL could be back in Albany next year. Phantoms co-owner Rob Brooks certainly hopes so. Here's what he had to say in an interview with Tim McManus of the Glens Falls Post-Star last week.
We don’t want them to go. And we hope they don’t. That’s not our call. When they’re in the building, it’s electric. There’s a lot of people, it’s packed. We’ve also scheduled those nights as our big nights to sell groups for, too. So actually, I don’t know if it’s that big of a difference because we’ve sold a lot of groups. Maybe it’s about five, 600 extra on those nights walkup from Albany.
In the AHL world, 500-600 walk up tickets makes a difference. There is the possibility that, if Albany is without a team next season, diehard fans could travel the extra hour north to Glens Falls for Phantoms games. For a bit of a local example, when the Atlantic City Boardwalk Bullies left town in 2005, many fans adopted the Phantoms in Philadelphia as a place to spend their hockey dollars. It could very well be a similar situation up in New York.
Long term, though, a strong rivalry with a team in Albany is a major player in hockey succeeding in Glens Falls. The current incarnation of hockey there isn't expected to last longer than the next couple of years, as the ownership is on record saying that the ultimate goal is to get an arena built in Allentown, PA.
But the Brooks' aren't forgetting about Glens Falls, nor are they 'using' the hockey-loving community up there. Their job there, as they see it, is to prove to another ownership group that the AHL can be successful in the town, so that when they finally do move to Allentown, another team is ready to jump in.
From that same interview with the Post-Star:
There’s always a hope [to start construction in Allentown soon], but right now it doesn’t seem as critical to us because (Glens Falls) is a nice fit for us right now. There’s a good feeling and we have work to do. We were going to go dark and just wait (for Allentown). We definitely didn’t want to come to a place and pull out. That’s not us. That’s not what we want to do.
But when we were approached [by the folks in Glens Falls] to say, ‘Hey, help us try and get a team back.’ Then it seemed OK to us. We’re like, ‘OK, we’re going to try and do everything we can, so we can feel good about it, about setting the stage and make it work long-term. That’s what we’re doing today, it’s what we did this year, it’s what we’ll do tomorrow, the year after. That’s our goal –- so if the day ever came where we had to go, the table is set. I think that’s what’s going to make us feel good – making sure the AHL is here for a long time.
The Phantoms are, long term, likely going to be in Allentown, so in that sense, it doesn't matter to us in the Philadelphia area whether or not hockey succeeds in Glens Falls once the Phantoms are no longer there.
For now, though, if the Allentown arena plans continue to stall and the building doesn't get up before the current Phantoms' lease at the Glens Falls Civic Center expires following the 2011/12 season, we could be affected. As Brooks said above, they thought about 'going dark' and waiting for Allentown before making the decision to go to Glens Falls.
If the Phantoms are without a lease in Glens Falls and are not at least breaking even, it's safe to at least speculate that the Brooks' could pull out of town and go dark until the Allentown arena is built. That means the Flyers wouldn't have an AHL affiliate while the Phantoms are dormant, and that situation would be a lot less than ideal. In this sense, it's crucial to us that the Phantoms succeed in Glens Falls at least in the short-term.
Hopefully, Albany leaving the area doesn't adversely effect the franchise too much.
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If that team won’t move to Albany, the Flyers should just create another AHL team, put it in Albany along with the Flyers’ players, and move it to Philly when a new arena finally gets built in this area.
This whole thing just gets sillier and sillier.
I don’t think the Flyers can or are going to just “create” an AHL team out of nowhere. Besides, they already have an affiliation contract; those are generally multi-year, are they not?
I have a feeling that they could get out of an affiliation deal, but the AHL completely controls handing out franchises. There are fees that have to be paid and the league has to sign off on that. Given the instability of their franchises, they don’t just hand out franchises to groups like candy.
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by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
There are a bunch of franchises bouncing around right now. Having a group as committed as Comcast interested in a team, with their AHL history, it wouldn’t be much of a problem.
There’s only one, the group in Iowa.
The other one was owned by the Oilers and they’re playing in OKC next season.
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by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Edmonton just cut ties with the Springfield franchise. Its not moving, just their affiliates are, as I understand it.
Yeah, read this
The Springfield team now has no NHL affiliate after this season, and the owners have made no commitment to operate after the 2010-11 season.
I think the Ducks are planning on jumping in there and taking that affiliation. They don’t have one right now.
It mentions it in that article as well.
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by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
It just says the Ducks don’t have an affiliate, not that they’re close to signing. It certainly makes more sense for them to take Iowa.
Also, Springfield’s arena lease is up this year.. The Flyers could totally step in and move them to Albany solving both of the franchises problems.
Iowa isn’t in the league, though. There’s no guarantee that they’ll even be playing next season.
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by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever. It doesn’t make sense for the Ducks to have a franchise 3,000 miles away. Thats exactly why Edmonton just left Springfield. Anaheim/Springfield is a bad match.
Right, because San Joe, CA / Worchester, MA is better…..
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Sarcasm. I’m saying there are worse matches if distance is all you’re looking at
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but it’s a much better situation than they have this season, where they have prospects all over the country.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
I guess? Not really sure if they’d rather have players closer or together on the other side of the country.
If you have your own AHL team, you have some control over the coach and system they play. You dont have that if your players are distributed.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, it’s suboptimal for west coast teams to have east coast affiliates, but there’s only one AHL team west of Texas (Calgary’s Abbotsford Heat, in British Columbia). Even Vancouver’s AHL team is all the way out in Manitoba, which is 1200 miles or so.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
I’m not going through my whole argument with Mario again in this thread, but the best interests of the Flyers remain with the new owners trying to keep the team as close to break even as possible, and their best chance to do that is to stay in Glens Falls until Allentown is ready. The Phantoms organization doesn’t seem dissatisfied with Glens Falls and obviously thinks they can financially hold on there in the short term, and uprooting it now would be an unnecessary risk. Besides, I don’t know the details of the affiliation agreement to know exactly how much control the Flyers have over the team. I highly doubt they can order the new owners around on a whim, especially about issues as big as where the team is located.
From what I understand, Comcast isn’t involved in the ownership at all anymore. The only ties the Flyers have with the Phantoms now are in the affiliation agreement and hockey operations. Financially, they have no control as far as I know.
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by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
That’s what I thought, too, that Spectacor has no ownership at all.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Right… Global Spectrum, correct?
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 10, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
the best interests of the Flyers remain with the new owners trying to keep the team as close to break even as possible,
You still haven’t given any reason why this is true.
I highly doubt they can order the new owners around on a whim, especially about issues as big as where the team is located.
They can. I can’t find details of when the affiliation contract ends, but it certainly isn’t a long term contract.
Back when this happened, the Flyers were on record voicing concerns over not having the team close. So much so that:
We had a convenient setup," Holmgren said. “Now we have to try to get another good setup.”
said Luukko, adding that “the goal” was to have the franchise within two hours of Philadelphia.
Luukko said it would be manageable if the Phantoms were located, say, 200 miles from Philadelphia.
Luukko said Lehigh Valley, which would have to build an arena, would be a viable spot for the Phantoms. That area is growing tremendously," he said, “and we have a lot of Flyers fans in that area, and I think it would be fantastic.”
Albany is 233 miles from Philly, Glens Falls is 284.
I say keeping them break even is in our best interest because if they fold due to financial losses, we don’t have an AHL team for some length of time. When Spectacor owned both teams, they had financial control over the Phantoms, they don’t have that now. The team is going to move to Allentown anyway, this is a short term solution, they just have to stay viable long enough to get there.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
If they’re both over 200 miles anyway, why are you bothering to campaign so hard for Albany?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, if that’s Luukko’s benchmark, moving them to Albany doesn’t improve the situation because it still doesn’t meet their demands. I don’t think the trade off of being a little closer to the airport outweighs the potential for financial loss.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
To answer all three posts:
1 – There are two AHL teams without affiliates right now (Iowa and Springfield) so thats not a problem.
2 – Albany is still 50 miles closer than Glens Falls if they needed to drive to Philly, and it has an airport.
3 – Financial loss is of no concern to the Flyers.
It’s not the Flyers who will have the financial loss, they have no ownership stake in the Phantoms. It’s not as easy to “gift” millions of dollars to another company in which you have no assets to cover their financial losses as it would be to cover for Spectacor to cover their own losses internally. And if the franchise folds, the AHL goes back down to 29 teams and we may go a season without an affiliate.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
And even if we say that they end up with Springfield, do you honestly think they’ll be able to move that fast and not have to worry about any chance of spending any time out of the area?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not the Flyers who will have the financial loss,
And THAT’S WHY its not their concern.
And if the franchise folds, the AHL goes back down to 29 teams and we may go a season without an affiliate.
If the franchise folds, the Flyers can team up with Springfield, MA and be 50 miles closer than they are now. Not to mention they could move Springfield even closer since their arena lease is about to end.
But if Iowa doesn’t resolve their issues (their charter was involuntarily suspended because they have issues), then there’s only 29 teams in the league and someone is without an affiliate, which could be us.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
And yes, I think that if the Phantoms folded due to financial problem and we are suddenly in a situation of a 29-team AHL (saying Iowa doesnt get their charter reinstated) and there are no open affiliations to steal, the Flyers WILL be concerned.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
You got lost somewhere…. I said at the beginning this is if the Phantoms team folds due to financial losses caused by your hypothetical moving the team out of Glens Falls
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Then you got lost when you posted this:
And if the franchise folds, the AHL goes back down to 29 teams and we may go a season without an affiliate.
If the Flyers move their players from Glens Falls, then the Flyers will already have some affiliate in the AHL. If the Phantoms then folded, who cares? The Flyers have some other affiliate.
Okay, let’s try this again. I meant what I said there but you lost details along the way.
This started with “if you move them out of the stable situation in Glens Falls and then fold due to financial losses”
Then the Ducks take the springfield affiliate that’s open because they dont have one at all.
I stated the assumption Iowa doesn’t get their charter back because it’s not a guarantee, they havent fixed their issues yet.
Some of us don’t think they can get a new AHL franchise handed to them like candy handed out on Halloween.
Are all the details in place now?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
You have a fundamental problem: The Flyers wouldn’t be pulling affiliates out of Glens Falls if there wasn’t somewhere for them to go. So Glens Falls only folds after the Flyers go somewhere else.
Not to mention, the assumption of Anaheim to Springfield is totally baseless. And Albany says they expect to have a team there for the 2010-11 season.
That’s wrong. There are already 29 teams.
OKC makes 30. Iowa would be 31st.
We’re assuming the Phantoms have folded and Iowa didnt get their charter back. 29.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
See above reply, going back to the original financial problem argument we started with
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Your argument is: “If the Flyers pull their players out of Glens Falls and send them to a different AHL team, then the Glens Falls team might fold and the Flyers won’t have an AHL affiliate.”
As I just posted, we talked about Ducks getting to Springfield before we do since they have no AHL team, and I stated the assumption Iowa does not manage to get their charter reinstated and the AHL may not grant a new franchise.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
My real argument was that the Phantoms organization believes they are stable to stay afloat in Glens Falls and think they can make it work, and that moving to Albany is an unnecessary financial risk. All the scenarios of affiliate you feel we could steal are not guaranteed to be available, so I pointed out situations involving us not managing to make those deals happen.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 10, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
The two affiliates I listed are 100% available right this instant.
The Phantoms do not believe they can stay in Glenns Falls, that’s why they’re trying to move to Allentown.
Albany is not a financial risk. They’ve sustained a team for 15 years, and plan to have as soon as next season. The Hurricanes merely pulled their affiliation because…
They wanted their prospects closer to the NHL franchise.
Nobody said the Phantoms don’t believe they can stay in Glens Falls, the original plan was to put them there until they build an arena in Allentown. The owners have told us on a few occasions they’re going to be upgrading the arena to make it AHL-ready, in an attempt to make sure an AHL team comes to Glens Falls after the Phantoms leave.
Also like I said on the other thread, hockey in Albany sucks. Theres hardly any coverage down there, and the team has had horrid attendance. Without Walter Robb (the former Rats owner), that team would have been sold a long time ago.
The Phantoms can’t stay in Glens Falls because the Flyers don’t want them there. It’s too far away.
Somehow, the Albany team has been just fine for 15 years, and is planning on getting another team. I don’t care how much it “sucks”, whatever that means. The only thing that matters is that the Flyers players get closer to Philadelphia.
The Brooks Group has stated they plan to move the team to somewhere in Lehigh Valley, preferably Allentown. The Glens Falls contract is only for three years, with team options to cancel after years 1 or 2, and the option to extend through years 4 or 5 if needed.
As far as breaking even, a quote from co-owner Rob Brooks:
“We really need paid tickets to be anywhere around 3,600. That’s probably your break even model. That’s about right where we are if you look at paid tickets.”
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Here are a few things for everyone to consider. The AHL controls the number of franchises in the league. Each team pays league fees, if you pay your fees you keep your team. Edmonton paid league dues while not fielding a team. Therefore they had the right to move their team to anywhere. The Flyers sold thier franchise to the Brooks. In doing so they really lost control of the team and its day-to-day operations. If the Brooks want to change affiliations in a few years they could. The Flyers also have the right to change when the agreement runs out. If I won the lottery and wanted an AHL franchise, I would have to find a seller. There are not many out there.
The Austin team is functioning under a one year temporary agreement with the AHL. They attempted to buy the Iowa franchise last year, but it is held up in court. David Andrews, President of AHL, has already said they will not allow this situation to last beyond this year. As of right now only Springfield is without an affiliation for next season. Since Anahiem does not have an AHL affiliate and they will no longer be allowed to split an affiliation, this makes sense as of right now. But anyone who follows AHL hockey knows that the silly season will begin in April and there is talk of 7 or 8 teams changing this spring.
Albany seems good on paper, but it is not a hockey town. The only thing that sells out the TUC is Siena College basketball, WWE, and concerts. Hockey has not been a big draw there for 10 years. Mr. Robb did everything he could to keep the Rats there. I don’t see how a town 45 miles closer to Philly makes it a better fit for the Flyers.
I invite all of you to come on up during the Olympic Break and check out a Phantoms game in Glens Falls. I think you would quickly realize that the future Flyers are in the right place to get the practice they need to suceed at the next level.
The Adirondack Phantoms: Bringing the AHL back to the Mountains!
I don’t see how a town 45 miles closer to Philly makes it a better fit for the Flyers.
Then you clearly haven’t read anything I posted stating exactly, from Peter Luuko’s mouth, why Albany would be better.
Out of everything in that post, you pick that. Then again, I’m not surprised.
Glens Falls is outside of Peter Luuko’s preferred area, but so is Albany. And so is Springfield. And oh, by the way, Peter Luuko has no control over where the Phantoms play, so what the does it matter what he thinks?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 12, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
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