Tim McManus on the Phantoms and the impact of Albany's move
We wrote a lengthy piece yesterday about the impact the move of the Albany River Rats from upstate New York to North Carolina will have on the Flyers AHL affiliate, the Adirondack Phantoms.
There was a lot of discussion about the impact this all has on the Flyers in the comments of that article. Tim McManus, Phantoms beat writer at the Glens Falls Post-Star, intended on posting a response to some of the comments with a comment of his own, but our site has a 24 hour validation period where newly registered members can't jump in.
He passed along his comments to me via email, however. I've included them here:
As a reporter who has covered this issue for more than a year, I can assure you hockey in Albany is not fine and has not been fine for quite some time. The River Rats lasted for 15 years only because of the generosity of a local owner, Walter Robb, who was willing to lose a considerable amount of money because he considered it a civic point of pride to have a team there. The River Rats aren’t leaving just because Carolina wanted a closer affiliation. The franchise was sold because it’s a financial black hole. Any new owner will need to come in with a completely new business plan.
If you’re a Flyers fan concerned about the viability of the Phantoms until Allentown is viable, Glens Falls is a far safer bet. The owners are on track to break even this season, something that hasn’t happened in Albany in at least 12 years. According to a story in today’s Times Union, the Rats have been in the bottom 25 percent of the league in attendance for the last 10 seasons. Twelve pro sports franchises have left Albany in the last 20 years. The headline of that TU story, by the way is, "Rats show the risk of hockey in Albany."
I make the commute between this area and Philadelphia several times a year. The 40 or so miles of highway between Glens Falls and Albany is the easiest part of the drive. It’s empty highway. You’d have to be insane to take on the considerable financial risks in Albany just to move 35 minutes closer to Philadelphia. Also, many players live where I do, in the Saratoga area. That’s about 15-20 miles south of Glens Falls, so the time element is even less. Why would you uproot a financially stable situation for a far riskier one with only a negligible time benefit?
Glens Falls needs facility upgrades before it can be an ideal long-term market, but for the next 2-3 years it suits the needs of the Brooks Brothers and the Flyers much better than Albany.
For reference, check out the article from yesterday and the lengthy debate in the comments section that follow. For more on Tim, check out his work at the Post-Star, as well as an interview we did with him back in October. I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any more concerns in the comments section here as well.
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Any new owner will need to come in with a completely new business plan.
Which is great. Except for the fact that there isn’t going to be a new owner. Walter Robb says he’ll bring in a team as soon as next season. If he actually wants to get out of the hockey in Albany market, this is the perfect opportunity: Get a team in Albany for a Farewell to the River Rats season.
If you’re a Flyers fan concerned about the viability of the Phantoms until Allentown is viable
I’m not. But more importantly, Lukko, Holmgren, et al should not be. The ONLY thing that they should be concerned about is getting their players where they need to be. And Glens Falls is too far away.
I make the commute between this area and Philadelphia several times a year. The 40 or so miles of highway between Glens Falls and Albany is the easiest part of the drive. It’s empty highway.
I’ve driven it myself to get to court in Glens Falls after flying into Albany.
You’d have to be insane to take on the considerable financial risks in Albany just to move 35 minutes closer to Philadelphia.
The Flyers won’t be taking on that risk. The Flyers would be getting their players closer to where they need to be. If the Phantoms owners don’t want to take on that risk, the Flyers should move their players to Springfield (much closer and way more accessible given Logan International and Amtrak) and the Phantoms can find a new NHL affiliate.
Why would you uproot a financially stable situation for a far riskier one with only a negligible time benefit?
Because its in the best interests of the Flyers, regardless of just how negligible that benefit is (the idea that they just jump in the car at home and drive to Albany airport is a bit silly. They have to bring their equipment with them, which I doubt they cart to and from the practice arena every single day.)
Glens Falls needs facility upgrades before it can be an ideal long-term market, but for the next 2-3 years it suits the needs of the Brooks Brothers
Which is of absolutely zero interest or concern to me or the Flyers
and the Flyers much better than Albany.
This is completely unfounded and blatantly untrue.
If the Flyers want control of where the Phantoms are located, then they need to own the team. They chose to surrender that control. End of story.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
That’s absolutely true.
However, the Flyers do have control of their players. And if the Phantoms want the Flyers players, they’ll have to do what the Flyers say. If they don’t want them, then the Flyers players’ should be moved to Springfield.
I still don’t get how Springfield is a better option.
Springfield has worse attendance than Albany’s. If attendance doesn’t improve next season the team is leaving, and there’s no where closer to Philly to move them to; because if there was somewhere here that was ready, the Phantoms would be moving and we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Details on Springfield’s problems:
That response will almost certainly change next year if attendance continues at its present level.
"Our ownership wants a team in Springfield. But at some point, hard business decisions have to be made," Landon said.
The first decision was to commit to the 2010-11 season. The decision ends any question of whether Springfield will field an AHL team next year.
But Landon, the spokesman for an ownership consortium that includes MassMutual Financial Group and several individuals, said if attendance does not improve by next season, the outside offers being rejected so far would have to be entertained.
That could mean a franchise shift out of Springfield by the 2011-12 season.
Landon said the franchise needs to average at least 4,000 fans per game, and ideally closer to 4,500, to remain viable.
The Falcons are averaging 3,051 fans after 16 dates.
Regarding travel time, I haven’t figured out how you call Springfield “much closer”. The driving difference between Springfield, MA and Glen’s Falls NY is about 40 minutes, and the drive from Glens Falls is the much, much easier of the two drives because the drive from Springfield involves taking I-95 through Manhattan If you avoid NYC and take I-84 to avoid the traffic (which a lot of people do), the drive time difference goes down to only 10 minutes. Springfield is an hour and a half from the closest major airport. Glens Falls is 45 minutes from Albany’s airport, which isn’t quite as tiny as you might think. If someone is called up for an away game, based on today’s arrivals and departures they can fly without changing planes to play the Hurricanes, Capitals, Panthers, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Thrashers, Blackhawks, Wild, Bruins, Red WIngs, Coyotes, Lightning, Predators, Sabres, and Maple Leafs. And they can drive to Montreal in about 3 hours. So they can get to every Eastern conference opponent other than the Penguins with no difficulty whatsoever, and if they do have to go to Pittsburgh they can still get there in about 3 hours of flight time if they have to take a connection through Newark, Philadelphia, or LaGuardia.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 11, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
Springfield has worse attendance than Albany’s.
I don’t give a flying fuck about attendance.
Springfield only 230 miles by car, about an hour less than Glens Falls. And even closer by driving east to the Acela train. For road callups, its about 80 minutes to Logan rather than an hour to Albany and then a connection at a non-regional airport.
You should give a flying fuck about attendance. You don’t want your prospects at a new affiliate every single year. That’s not manageable from any perspective.
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by Travis Hughes on Feb 12, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
The good prospects spend a year in juniors, a year in the AHL, then the next year in the AHL. Whats the difference?
I just want to make sure I’m clear on what you mean by your theory of good prospects…
So by your definition, none of the following were ever considered good prospects? A totally incomplete list of players who spent significant amounts of 2 or more seasons in the AHL, several of whom were first round picks…
(Around the League)
Bobby Ryan
Patrick Sharp
Mike Knuble
Tim Thomas
Zdeno Chara
Vinny Prospal
Ryan Miller
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Ryan Kesler
(Some Flyers Past & Present)
Danny Briere
Ray Emery
Antero Niittymaki
Braydon Coburn
Ron Hextall
Pelle Lindbergh
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Good work on using a whole ton of players from the old-NHL.
New NHL, youth movement, players don’t spend years in AHL. See: Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR, Parent, Bartulis, et al.
Sorry, Ryan Parent and Oskars Bartulis would qualify under my list above, they each spent the best part of 2 or more seasons in the AHL. I didn’t think you would qualify them as “good prospects” given how much you complain about our young defensemen.
Bobby Ryan isn’t old NHL, and I said the list was incomplete. I stuck within the parameters of YOUR argument.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan Parent and Oskars Bartulis would qualify under my list above
No, they didn’t. Bartulis played 57 games in 2007-08, then a full season, so he doesn’t belong on that list. I didn’t realize how old he was.
Parent played part of 2007-08 in the AHL, but not even the full season before being called up to the Flyers
Your argument didn’t really allow for people going up and down, because you said they’d play a year in the AHL and then be in the NHL. Ryan Parent spent 3 seasons going back and forth. For Bartulis, one full 80 game season plus more than half of another season does not meet your “one year” requirement.
The point is, you originally said they’d be out of there after one year and that it wouldn’t make a difference. But people go back and forth, it does make a difference, and that’s what I’m trying to say by pointing out that not all good prospects have a “one and done” year in the AHL.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Ryan Parent spent 3 seasons going back and forth.
No, he didn’t. He signed and played the playoffs with the Phantoms. Then he spent part of a season before being called up.
Then he was on the Flyers’ roster but got injured in the pre-season and missed several months. He was sent down for conditioning before he joined the team last season as soon as he was up to speed again.
And for the record, plenty of “old NHL” players skipped the AHL entirely, too, or played in like 3 measly playoff games or something.
See Eric Lindros, Eric Desjardins, Simon Gagne, etc. There’s plenty of others out there but I’m not going to go digging through lists and I know those three off the top of my head.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Did you even read the drive times in my post? Springfield to Logan airport is 95 minutes. That’s if there is no traffic (hahaha). Springfield to Philadelphia is a measly 40 minutes closer if you magically hit no traffic in Manhattan. That doesn’t happen during any part of the day where the sun is out, basically. If you drive the smart way (84 to 684 then over the Tappen Zee Bridge) you only save 10 minutes. And Amtrak is delayed so frequently that it’s amazing the ridership manages to stay at it’s current levels.
From you below:
285 miles is clearly not manageable. Albany is borderline manageable at 230 miles away, only because it has a regional airport right there.
Using your number, Springfield is 230 miles and there is no “regional airport right there”. Springfield still doesn’t even meet your own demands!
Quit being so hell-bent on being right, when no business owner is going to move the team to a location practically guaranteed to lose money, when where they are is financially stable and is a short term solution anyway.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Quit being so hell-bent on being right, when no business owner is going to move the team to a location practically guaranteed to lose money, when where they are is financially stable and is a short term solution anyway.
Quit ignoring the parts where I’m right.
A one hour drive to a regional airport means about six hours more than a 90 minute drive to a hub like Logan.
Springfield is no worse than Albany and better than Glens Falls. There is no reason it shouldn’t be used as leverage to get the Glens Falls team back to civilization where the Flyers need them to be.
Did you notice how many places you can fly to out of Albany? You can get to half the league without changing planes, including every Eastern conference opponent except 1.
In my personal experiences in the past with regional airports, they don’t take nearly as long to get you ready for your flight as places like Logan do. I have flown home from Logan at least 10 times, and in every case getting through security was a nightmare and took forever, not to mention the insanity of just getting to the airport. Made Philly Int’l seem like an absolute cakewalk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Then why do you keep arguing you can’t fly out of Albany without connecting to a hub, if you can get to at least half the league without changing planes?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 12, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
when no business owner is going to move the team to a location practically guaranteed to lose money, when where they are is financially stable and is a short term solution anyway.
I can’t explain this any more clearly:
If they won’t move to where the Flyers need them to be, then the Flyers pull their prospects and move those players somewhere else.
The option you give Glens Falls is “Move or don’t have our players.” They can choose to fold, try to find a new NHL affiliate, or move closer to Philly. If they chose either of the first two options, the Flyers only gain by moving their players to Springfield or Albany.
Walter Robb won’t own the new team. His sports management group is helping to find a new team and if one comes in they may retain some employees, but Robb, who is 81, is done as majority owner. The stories over the last six months have been clear on that.
If anyone thinks Glens Falls is too far away, that’s certainly a reasonable opinion, although there are several AHL teams located much farther from their NHL clubs. I’d never argue that it was a better option than Allentown. I just don’t think the difference between Albany and Glens Falls is significant enough to warrant a change. I guess people can decide if 40-some miles makes my claim blatantly untrue. It’s really a hypothetical discussion anyway, as the Phantoms are contracted to Glens Falls next season and the Brooks have an affiliation agreement with the Flyers.
Also, for whatever reason, most of the Flyers callups I’ve talked to were taken to Philly by car service rather than flying out of Albany, unless they were meeting the team on the road. Not sure about the Flyers brass who’s been here.
Question for you, Tim: How easy is it for an NHL team to get out of an affiliation agreement?
I’m not saying the Flyers should or that they will, but hypothetically. Can they do it?
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 11, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know the answer to that. I’ll ask around the next couple of days. I asked for a copy of the agreement last year, like we have a copy of the lease between the city and the team, but the Flyers wouldn’t release the terms of the affiliation.
Yeah, I noticed there’s never been an article anywhere on the terms of the agreement so I assumed it wasn’t public knowledge. Thanks.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 11, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Walter Robb won’t own the new team. His sports management group is helping to find a new team and if one comes in they may retain some employees, but Robb, who is 81, is done as majority owner. The stories over the last six months have been clear on that.
You should probably tell him that, then, since he sent out this press release stating that he retained the River Rats name, infrastructure, and staff. Very curious for someone who isn’t going to own a team…
If anyone thinks Glens Falls is too far away, that’s certainly a reasonable opinion, although there are several AHL teams located much farther from their NHL clubs.
Not the point. Glens Falls being too far away is fact. Right from Peter Luukko’s mouth.
Luukko said it would be manageable if the Phantoms were located, say, 200 miles from Philadelphia.
285 miles is clearly not manageable. Albany is borderline manageable at 230 miles away, only because it has a regional airport right there.
most of the Flyers callups I’ve talked to were taken to Philly by car service rather than flying out of Albany
Which is what I would presume. Because you can’t just book a flight from Albany to Philly for the same day. The airport is only relevant for getting out on the road. And flying out of Albany means you have to connect to a hub, then get to where the team is. Which is why the Flyers had that problem where they called someone up to meet them in Pittsburgh and then cancelled the callup because the player was stranded in Philly waiting for a connecting flight.
Robb retained the infrastructure to try and preserve the jobs of the staff, to keep the River Rats name going in Albany, and make it essentially a turn key operation for whoever comes in. Why would he sell his current team only to buy another? Not only is that expensive, there’s no guarantee he’d find another team to buy. The affiliation with Carolina expires at the end of the season. Had he wanted to retain the team, Carolina was free to walk and find a new franchise and he was free to find a new affiliate.
If you’re saying you can’t get a flight out of Albany on the same day anyway, why does having the airport there make Albany borderline manageable? But I believe you can. Out of curiosity, I just did an Orbitz search and it looks like there are four direct US Air flights tomorrow from Albany to Philly — 5;28 a.m., 7:05 a.m., 2:55 p.m. and 8:50 p.m. Each is a turbo prop and gets in about 1:10-1:25 later. If the airport is a viable option, it’s not that hard to get there from Glens Falls.
Why would he sell his current team only to buy another?
Because the Hurricanes wanted their players much closer to their NHL team so they were going to terminate the agreement. Robb would essentially have to find another team anyway when Carolina left, so he hedged his bets by selling to the Canes, then he’ll buy a new team for Albany with an existing NHL affiliation. Which is exactly what they are in the process of doing.
If you’re saying you can’t get a flight out of Albany on the same day anyway, why does having the airport there make Albany borderline manageable?
You can’t get a flight for a same-day callup. You can get a flight for a road callup. And Albany still isn’t a “manageable” location. It’s just more manageable than Glens Falls.
four direct US Air flights tomorrow from Albany to Philly — 5;28 a.m., 7:05 a.m., 2:55 p.m. and 8:50 p.m.
Which is exactly my point. The Flyers can’t use the airport to call a player up on the same day unless they make the decision at like 10am to get him on the 3pm flight. Then they still have to do it by 2pm in order to maybe get the player to Philly in time for a game that night.
It’s not manageable.
Robb won’t own the new team. It’s not even a question. He’s been on the record numerous times over the past few years explaining he’s on his way out. I guess I’ll be believed when and if a new deal is reached in Albany.
Has anything been unmanageable so far? I remember Danny Syvret’s flight being canceled once because of one of the big Northeast storms, but otherwise I don’t recall any cases where a player was needed to be somewhere and wasn’t.
Has anything been unmanageable so far?
The Flyers have been forced to carry an extra forward and dman for the entire season. So, yes, its been very unmanagable.
I love how you say this, because it’s so very wrong. They weren’t forced to carry an extra forward and dman the entire season because of the team being in Glens Falls. They were “forced” to because both Riley Cote and Ole-Kristian Tollefsen have/had one-way deals. Further, with the cap situation, even you admitted there was no reason to send them down since they were over the cap. Being in Glens Falls had NOTHING to do with OKT and Cote being on the roster all season.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 12, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
They didn’t carry an extra forward or dman last season.
They could’ve carried Cote and OKT. Instead, they also carried Pyorala when he in fact could’ve been in the AHL staying in game shape.
Did you consider that they gave OKT a one-way contract because they KNEW the Phantoms would be in Glens Falls? Or the fact that Lasse Kukkonen last season was also on a one way contract, but was waived and recalled several times through the course of the season? OKT would’ve been the same (no one wants him in the NHL, obviously) but they had to carry him around with them every day (not playing and not getting better) because the Phantoms are in Glens Falls.
Lasse Kukkonen stayed on the team the entire season until February 9th, when he was waived. He played 21 games at that point, while the team had played 58. That’s “carrying an extra dman” if ever there was one. He was then recalled to play one game and sent back down four days later.
He was not waived and recalled “several times”.
So, your argument is already refuted.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 12, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
He was waived for the third time on February 9, 2008. The two times before that, players had gotten injured forcing him into the lineup, at least once as a forward.
That third time, he was finally assigned to the Phantoms. Then he cleared recall waivers two weeks later. And was sent to the AHL after four days.
During the 2008-09 season, Lasse Kukkonen cleared waivers four different times, and cleared recall waivers once.
This:
He was not waived and recalled "several times".
is incorrect.
Well then my source was wrong. But if they didn’t send him down, he wasn’t “recalled several times” since he was simply “waived” several times. So, we’re both wrong and both right at the same time.
Which brings us back to whether the Flyers carried an extra d-man, which they clearly did last year.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 12, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
You should probably tell him that, then, since he sent out this press release stating that he retained the River Rats name, infrastructure, and staff. Very curious for someone who isn’t going to own a team…
That’s common. The City of Hartford still has rights to all Whalers stuff, and the banners still hang in the building there, but the chances of a team coming back are slim to none. Owners almost always do this when they sell a team.
Not the point. Glens Falls being too far away is fact. Right from Peter Luukko’s mouth.
They tried local options — Atlantic City, non-existant buildings in Jersey, etc. — and they opted to sell them. They want the answer to be Allentown, but that’s not in the cards right now. They also realize they’ll never have a situation like they did with the Phantoms and he admitted it. All he’s said is that they need to have another ‘good setup.’
Yes, he did say they’d like the team within 200 miles. There are no options within 200 miles, and that’s why we’ve settled on discussing Glens Falls, Springfield and Albany.
And I completely disagree with you that Springfield is a better option than Glens Falls. It’s a 95 minute drive to Boston/Logan and then it’s a 90 minute flight after that if you’re able to get right on a plane. Realistically, you’d have wait a bit, and by the time you get to Philly/Voorhees to meet the team, you’re up near 4+ hours.
You mentioned Amtrak. There’s a route that goes right through Albany on it’s way to NYC from Montreal, connects with the NE Corridor at NY Penn, and takes 3 hours and 40 minutes round trip to 30th Street Station. Add the hour car ride from Glens Falls and it’s 4 hours, 40 minutes — that’s a rough average. Trains leave Albany every hour, sometimes even more frequently.
There’s a also a station in Springfield, MA. Round trip to 30th Street Station takes 4 hours, 57 minutes — that’s the shortest trip listed. Three trains leave Springfield before 11 AM and there’s not another one until 4 PM.
It’s a 3 hour, 37 minute drive down I-95 in Connecticut and New York City, and as someone who used to make that drive all the time I can tell you that it’s only 3 hours and 37 minutes if the world is about to end. On the flip side, it’s a 4 hour, 35 minute drive from Glens Falls to Philadelphia, largely on uninhabited highway.
I’m not sure how being in Springfield makes things easier.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 11, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Springfield is now worse. Its the leverage to make Glens Falls move. And its closer to a hub airport which makes it easier to fly around the country.
Springfield’s not leverage.
Flyers: Hey, Adirondack, move or we’re taking our players.
Adirondack: Bye
click
Adirondack: Hello, Anaheim?
The problem is, you’re approaching this as a win-lose situation in which the Phantoms have no alternative – the Flyers must get their way, and to hell with the business. The owners of the Phantoms aren’t new to the industry; they also own the Nailers, part of the Penguins, part of the Pirates, and three minor league baseball teams. They understand how it’s done, and given the current market, the Flyers need the Phantoms as much as the Phantoms need the Flyers.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
The Detroit Red Wings didn’t have a problem with an AHL affiliate in Glens Falls for 20 years.
And the entire Springfield argument is moot because they might not even be a team next season.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 12, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
1) I don’t care about any other teams, it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the Flyers want their players within 200 miles. Secondarily, why did Detroit leave Glens Falls? To put their AHL affiliate in Grand Rapids, MI, so it seems they did have a problem with their kids being so far away.
2) The only reason Springfield wouldn’t have a team is because they didn’t have an affiliate. Therefore, the Springfield option is very much relevant.
Grand Rapids didn’t become the Detroit affiliate until 2002. The Adirondack Red Wings suspended operations in 1998. In between, Detroit scattered its prospects around the AHL. There are a whole complex list of reasons why the Red Wings left Glens Falls – the promise of a new arena in Toledo that was never built, the lack of revenue producing luxury boxes and general deterioration at the Civic Center, a sharp attendance drop after the last Calder Cup, the then financial trouble of the city of Glens Falls — proximity to Detroit is just one aspect of a complicated issue. Grand Rapids had nothing to do with it. They were in the IHL at the time.
You should probably tell him that, then, since he sent out this press release stating that he retained the River Rats name, infrastructure, and staff. Very curious for someone who isn’t going to own a team…
Those are still assets. If hockey returns to Albany, having those rights available to sell has value. That sort of thing’s not uncommon. In addition to the Hartford situation, in the NBA, Seattle still holds rights to the SuperSonics name, logo, and records.
Of course, if distance is an issue, we could always ask the Phantoms to move to Baltimore (since the Bandits moved to Cincinatti after the then-Mighty Ducks became affiliated), then try to swap affiliations with the Capitals, since the Bears are just up in Hershey…
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Mozilla Firefox and Adblock Plus. I haven’t seen an ad on this website since I joined up.
by StarbladeMKIII on Feb 11, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions

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