Contextualizing Criticism of Danny Briere
With the large contract and less-than stellar numbers, Danny Briere has been a target of criticism in Philadelphia for the past two years - if not longer. With last year's injury-shortened season, a lot was expected of him this year.
Currently, he's third on the team in points with 40, but that's quite a way off from his 95-point season with the Sabres in 2006-2007. Around BSH, he's received strong reactions from both sides - those criticizing him and those defending him - this season.
Until now, we've generally stayed away from the topic. We did this because it's both easy to criticize the highest paid player on the team and because it's hard to fault the team's third leading scorer. To us, there are other (better) places to direct criticism and attention.
But that changed today when a fellow Flyers blog - The Flying P - wrote an article criticizing Danny Briere. In it, Jon wrote:
Even so, how does our top-paid player get cut so much slack in the point producing department? People will say he's playing out of position (okay, maybe). Others will say his inability to shake the injury bug has been his downfall (certainly). A more pejorative position might be that he's gotten too comfortable in his long-term (through 2014-2015 season) fat contract.Whatever the case, he needs to be prodded to be performing better than he has. The hattrick in Montreal was nice, don't get me wrong. But the Flyers need more consistent scoring from their top players (read: top-paid). This is a business and, at his age, people are paid to produce... not for their potential to produce.
Now, before I go into my defense of Mr. Briere, I need to say that Jon did a lot of good work and it is well worth the read. He compared Briere's production so far to players making within $500,000 of him, and we recommend looking at. But, with that said, there are a few things he failed to mention that need to be brought up when looking at Briere.
So jump.
Let me just get this out of the way first: how Jon approached this struck me as a bit odd.
It's a well-forgetten fact that Mr. Briere is the highest paid player on the Flyers roster (just beating out Timonen by about a 166k cap hit). Shouldn't that mean he's Philly's "Superstar"???
Who does he know that forgets the fact that Briere is the highest paid player on the team? Really? And secondly, I disagree that a player's cap hit is indicative of their "superstar" status. Rather, a player's cap hit is indicative of many things, not least of which being a team's needs in free agency, the free agent market at the time of signing, and the production by said player immediately preceding his contract. But, that's a minor complaint.
Like I said above, the story does a good job of comparing Briere to those players earning about as much as him. The conclusion, obviously, is that he's underperforming. Nine of the thirteen forwards earning between $6 and $7 million have more points than Briere so far this year. But here's what wasn't said in that story: Why is his production dropping?
Here is a table of Briere's performance since joining the Sabres in the middle of the 2002-2003 season:
| Year | GP | G | A | P |
| 2002-03 Sabres | 14 | 7 | 5 | 12 |
| 2003-04 | 82 | 28 | 37 | 65 |
| 2005-06 | 48 | 25 | 33 | 58 |
| 2006-07 | 81 | 32 | 63 | 95 |
| 2007-08 Flyers | 79 | 31 | 41 | 72 |
| 2008-09 | 29 | 11 | 14 | 25 |
| Totals | 333 | 134 | 193 | 327 |
| Per Game | 0.402 | 0.580 | 0.982 | |
| 2009-10 | 53 | 21 | 19 | 40 |
| Per Game | 0.396 | 0.358 | 0.755 |
All these numbers were taken from Hockey-Reference.com. Briere entered this season scoring .982 points per game since he left Phoenix. This year, he's scoring at 0.755. But a quick look at the table above shows you exactly where his drop in production has come from.
Briere is still putting the puck in the net as frequently as he has since joining the Sabres, and his goals per game rate is actually higher than when he tallied 95 points in 2006-2007. Where his production has dropped the most is in his assists. The last time he had this few assists per game was in the 14 games he played after being traded to the Sabres.
Then the question becomes, why has Briere's assist total dropped? Well, there are two big reasons (and I'm sure there are plenty more, some of which Jon mentioned in his story) that Jon failed to mention. First, Briere is playing against the toughest competition he has played against since Gabriel Desjardins started tracking the stat. Second, and more obvious to a lot of people, is that his linemates haven't been scoring - specifically, Scott Hartnell.
First, Briere's playing against tougher competition. According to Gabe's QualComp stat, Briere has been playing against the second toughest competition among all Flyers forwards at 0.054. This is the highest qualcomp he has ever had, with Desjardins starting to track the stat in 2006-07. While he also has a higher QualTeam, a lot of his struggles can be explained by saying he's facing the best players he's faced since he came into the Eastern Conference.
Secondly, when a player's assist numbers drop, the first place you look is to who's on the ice with him. Maybe Briere isn't setting up his teammates as much as he used to. (His power play assists have certainly dropped, from 6 in 29 games last year to 7 in 53 games this year). But when a linemate he plays with nearly 52% of the time (Hartnell) has seen their goal scoring rate drop to their lowest levels since 2002-03, that seems like a good place to start.
While Hartnell has actually increased his point/game output this year compared to his average during the past 6 years, his goals/game has dropped from 0.37 last year to 0.20. If Hartnell was producing at the same rate as last year, he'd have 10 additional goals. Say Briere got an assist on just 6 of them and his assist rate would be 0.472 per game and his points/game at 0.868, at or above last year's production.
Think giving Hartnell 10 additional goals is too much? That's completely fair. Last year was a career year for Hartnell in terms of goal scoring. So, take Hartnell's 6 year average goals per game (0.292). He would have 17 goals so far, rather than 12. Give Briere 3 assists on those 5 goals and see his assists per game jump to 0.415 and his points per game go to 0.811. That would still be below his recent output, but it wouldn't be low enough where people start claiming he's getting "a free pass."
All of this isn't to say Briere is free from blame - he certainly is deserving. The problem is that any critique of Briere needs to look at where his drop in production has come from. When his point production drops solely in the assist category and Scott Hartnell has seen his goals per game drop significantly, there's a correlation there that needs to be mentioned.
Maybe Hartnell isn't scoring because Briere isn't setting him up. But maybe Briere isn't getting the assists because Hartnell isn't burying them. It's probably a little bit of both, but any Briere critique needs to at least mention Scott Hartnell.
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I’m hoping someone remembers this more clearly than I do, but wasn’t Briere interviewed during one of the intermissions of the second Montreal game, talking about his switch back to the left wing and how much more comfortable he felt on that side? I only heard a snippet of it in passing, but if I heard what I think I did, it could be a sign that playing out of position has had a legitimate effect on him.
Let’s also look at how scoring overall is down. 05’-06’ season saw 14 players with 90+ pts as did 06’-07’ . In 08’ that number dropped to 8 and last year was 7. He was also on the top line in Buffalo, PP time galore. I certainly am not defending Briere but better linemates would help. We are also the most penalized team in the NHL which cuts back on even strength and PP opportunities. Couple that with the fact maybe he was a flash in the pan. Other than his 95 pt season he never had more than 72 pts. Does the name Cheechoo ring a bell. Now I believe he is better than him, but maybe we should point our disgust with Homer for making him that deal after only 1 really good season. How nice would it have been to keep Knuble a RW and not force Briere to play out of position. With all that said he still needs to pick up more pts given his cap hit
I can’t fault the Flyers for making a move after the worst season in the history of the club. Compared to the other free agents that were available at the time, Briere was the smarter choice, even if he hasn’t been the superstar everyone thought he’d be (except for the first season where he was pretty good, esp in the playoffs against the Caps). They had no idea that Carter and Richards would develop as quickly as they did, and Snider does not rebuild (as we all know).
Still, he does need to increase his production. Even in the bad times, he’s still a PPG player, and right now he is not on that pace. He cannot escape criticism, but where I take issue is with those who think he is the reason this team has failed/is failing in their quest to obtain the Stanley Cup. And the kneejerk reactionaries who say we should just release him or buy out his contract—my, God, some people are idiots—are a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I think the real issue is that both Briere and Hartnell are relying too much on Jeff Carter to score.
Unfortunately, the numbers at Behind the Net are only through 56 games this season.
Jeff Carter
2008-09: 27 goals, 195 shots saved, 77 missed the net
2009-10: 15 goals, 132 shots saved, 82 missed the net
Through 56 games this season, Carter has missed the net five more times than he did in all 82 games last season.
Now, I’m going to reverse engineer in order to calculate these numbers better. I’m going to take Carter’s average TOI per 60 games, and assume that in these last four games it hasn’t deviated all that much. [Statistically I’m going to: Average TOI X 56 = ~Total TOI. Then Shots/~Total TOI= Shots per minute. ] It’s not the most accurate, but the deviation is minimal.
Jeff Carter Per Minute of Ice Time
2008-09: .0157 goals, .1135 shots saved, .0448 missed the net
2009-10: .0138 goals, .1216 shots saved, .0756 missed the net
Putting it all together then:
2009-10 Shots + Missed Shots: .174 per minute
2008-09 Shots + Missed Shots: .209 per minute
That’s more than a 20% increase in Shots+Missed Shots from last season to this.
Is there any way we can look at shots taken by Carter’s linemates? I don’t think we have the data to calculate it.
But that’s only 5-on-5 shots.
Running the numbers from NHL.com for this year and last:
2008-09 (shots + missed shots)/Total TOI:
Carter: 0.267
Briere: 0.159
Hartnell: 0.190
2009-10 (same thing):
Carter: 0.329
Briere: 0.191
Hartnell: 0.197
Everybody is taking more shots than they did last year, per minute of ice time.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 15, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
First off, Carter is taking a much greater increase in shots. Second, you can’t compare Briere or Hartnell from year to year because Hartnell only played with Carter about half of the year, and Briere not at all. Its totally unrelated data.
Second, you can’t compare Briere or Hartnell from year to year because Hartnell only played with Carter about half of the year, and Briere not at all. Its totally unrelated data.
But if Briere is shooting more this year than he did last year – when he played with Giroux and Upshall – he’s clearly not relying on Carter to score. He was the scorer last year, and yet he’s shooting more.
Same with Hartnell – Hartnell played with Carter last year, and he’s shooting more this year.
When you note that Carter is shooting more, so are his linemates. Drawing a conclusion that the other guys aren’t shooting as much is just incorrect.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
AGAIN.
You can’t compare them. First off, Danny’s sample size is smaller. Second, Danny played with Asham and Giroux, not Upshall.
Hartnell played half the season with Carter and half without.
“Shooting more” is totally meaningless unless you can show they had a similar amount of time in the O-zone.
Not to mention, your “shooting more” argument still holds no water compared to the dramatic uptick in shots by Carter.
Not to mention, your "shooting more" argument still holds no water compared to the dramatic uptick in shots by Carter.
But if his linemates are also shooting more too, you can’t just say “both Briere and Hartnell are relying too much on Jeff Carter to score.” Especially when Briere’s g/g is the highest it’s been since he got here. Clearly, he isn’t “relying too much” on Carter. He’s doing what he’s always done.
So then the question becomes, is Hartnell relying on Carter too much? And when you see that his shots per minute has gone down by just 0.007, the difference is negligible.
Carter’s massive uptick in shots can’t be attributed to Hartnell and Briere not shooting, since those two still are shooting.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, it can.
AGAIN, you have to look at the amount of time in the O-zone.
Or, forgot shots each persons takes.
Take all the shots taken by Carter’s line. Then look at what percent were fired by Carter compared to his linemates. The dramatic uptick in that number is the point.
Alright, the best I could think of (if you can think of a better way, by all means do it) is this:
I used Behindthenet.ca’s 5-on-5 numbers and NHL.com’s ESTOI. Obviously, this isn’t exact (4-on-4 situations are counted in the TOI, not in BtN) But, this is the calculation:
[(Shots + Missed Shots)/ESTOI] * 60 = Carter’s personal SFON/60.
Then take that and divide by his BtN SFON/60 to get the percent of shots Carter took. Hopefully you could follow that.
2008-2009, Carter took 43.2% of all the shots he was on the ice for.
2009-2010, Carter took 46.0% of all the shots he was on the ice for.
But that percentage increase doesn’t come from Hartnell.
2008-2009, Hartnell took 35.4% of all the shots he was on the ice for.
2009-2010, Hartnell took 34.6% of all the shots he was on the ice for.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
So, if we can trust all that data (and it seems like the best we can do), doesn’t that suggest that Briere is shooting less than Lupol was last season?
Only 1.6 S/60 less, but as a total percentage of shots on the ice, a significant drop 35.6% to 24.1%. But again, Briere is scoring. Even if he is relying on Carter to shoot more, he isn’t relying on Carter to score more.
Last year, Lupul scored 1.1 G/60, this year Briere is at 0.93. Slight drop in production with significant drop in shots. Look at Hartnell though: last year, 1.22 G/60; this year, 0.24 G/60.
Hartnell is the one who has fallen off the face of the Earth. What we’ve learned in this long thread:
- Carter is shooting slightly more
- Hartnell is shooting marginally less
- Briere shoots a lot less than Lupul
- Briere scores slightly less than Lupul
- Hartnell is nowhere near his production last year.
Carter shooting more has nothing to do with Hartnell’s (or Briere’s) struggles. The fact is, Hartnell just isn’t scoring. His shooting percentage is 8.9, the lowest it’s been since 02-03. He’s still shooting (even if Carter is shooting more than last year) he’s just not scoring.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
You’re missing what I thought was the most important stat.
Carter is missing the net in an astronomically increased rate. Which then trickles down through all his linemates in decreased production.
So because Carter is missing the net, Hartnell isn’t scoring? I can see it, but there’s definitely more to Briere’s lack of assists and Hartnells’ lack of goals than Carter missing the net.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Flip it.
Carter is missing the net because they’re forcing the puck to him in less than optimal scoring situations.
But Carter’s only taking an extra 2 shots per 60 minutes he’s on the ice (15.05 to 13.12 last year).
Either way, Briere’s point per game production is down because his assists per game are down. His linemates this year – Carter and Hartnell – are both firing the puck more frequently than they did last year, but Hartnell isn’t scoring.
I’m having a hard time seeing what Carter shooting and missing more often this year has to do with Briere not getting assists. It’s Hartnell who’s dragging that line down.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Hartnell isn’t a scorer. He doesn’t get a puck from Briere and put it in the net. He knocks in rebounds.
Rebounds that aren’t there when Briere doesn’t shoot because he’s giving Carter the puck. Rebounds that aren’t there because Carter misses the net.
Well that’s a completely flawed argument. He’s getting the same amount of shots this year as last year. Plus, Carter and Briere are producing 13.46 shots on net (not goals) per 60 minutes this year, while Carter and Lupul produced 14.11 last year.
Hartnell has the same number of opportunities this year to put the puck in the net, he just isn’t doing it.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
How? Those are shots aimed at the goalie who don’t go in or wide. They’re the same opportunities.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
They’re not because Carter is firing away stupidly and missing the net. Hartnell’s share of shots is down this season because even though Carter’s share is up. Because the rebounds aren’t there for Hartnell to put back on the net.
Except I disproved that two comments up. Carter and Lupul put 14.11 shots on net that didn’t go in or miss per 60 minutes last year. Briere and Carter are putting 13.46. Same opportunities for rebounds.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
That doesn’t “disprove” anything. Carter forcing shots means Hartnell can’t get to the net. Instead of plays developing Carter just forces shots at the net.
Hartnell ISN’T not scoring goals despite the opportunities being there, because Hartnell’s share of shots is down while Carter’s is up. Carter is taking worse shots (not necessarily his fault), missing the net ridiculously, and not creating the same opportunities Hartnell had last season.
Carter is taking worse shots (not necessarily his fault), missing the net ridiculously, and not creating the same opportunities Hartnell had last season.
But again, you’re ignoring the fact that the amount of shots on target are the same.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 17, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
NO, they’re not.
This is the last time I’m going to repeat this:
Hartnell played with Carter only half the year last season. You cannot assume those numbers were all the same.
Carter is taking way more shots, Hartnell is taking proportionally less shots, Briere is taking proportionally less shots.
Hartnell’s shots come from rebounds. Carter’s shots aren’t generating rebounds.
Hartnell played with Carter only half the year last season. You cannot assume those numbers were all the same.
He played with Carter a lot more last year than this year. Certainly, none of these numbers are 100%, since Hartnell doesn’t play with Carter every second of the time he’s on the ice. If you’re going to say that, you obviously disregard everything that has been said, since they’re all worthless in your opinion now.
Carter is taking way more shots, Hartnell is taking proportionally less shots, Briere is taking proportionally less shots.
Carter is taking less than 2 more shots per 60 minutes this year. In terms of shots on net, Carter is hitting the net a mere .12 fewer times per 60 this year than last year. He is not “taking way more shots.”
Hartnell is taking more shots than he did last year – 10.49 per 60 last year to 10.82 this year – and even as a percent of all shots on the ice, his taking 34.6 compared to 35.4 last year. But “you cannot assume those numbers are the same,” so you don’t care. Because it shows that NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
Briere is taking 1.3 more shots per 60 than he did last year, but his percent has dropped 2.1 since last year. And this doesn’t matter either, since his sample size was incredibly small and since he didn’t play with Carter last year. If you say “well he’s taking less shots than Lupul did last year,” it doesn’t matter. Adding up Lupul, Carter, and Hartnell’s percent of shots taken while they were on the ice gets you 114.23%.
Hartnell’s shots come from rebounds. Carter’s shots aren’t generating rebounds.
Not only can you not prove that, you’re wrong. Carter’s shots on target are down a mere .12/60 minutes. There is THE SAME OPPORTUNITY for rebounds as last year from CARTER. You’re just wrong.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 17, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
You want to keep repeating the same mishmash of stats that can’t be compared to one another, have fun convincing yourself.
You know you have no argument when you give up, without insult.
So, I’ll take that as a concession that you’re wrong, since you’ll never utter those words.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Carter is taking forced shots.
Hartnell can’t be in front of the net in time.
Thats the conclusion to be drawn. Now, feel free to throw irrelevant numbers out there and pretend they prove something.
Carter is taking forced shots.
Feel free to throw any numbers proving this point. Because none do.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
56 games through the season, he’s equalled his missed shots total.
Done and done. Feel free to take your head out of your ass and stop posting nonsensical arguments that don’t even have a point.
So missed shots = forced shots?
Not true. At all.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 18, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
my biggest pet peeve of this flyer team, they all seem to miss the net with higher frequency than any team I’ve seen. It’s like they are trying to put their shots exactly to the perfect place instead of just firing them on net and hoping for a nice rebound to slam home.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I think a lot of that has to do with struggling to score this year from some just plain bad luck(not absolving bad play, but you get the point). When you are snakebitten you start trying to hard to score the perfect goal, aiming your shot instead of just letting it rip etc. I never played hockey, but in baseball and basketball I’ve had it happen to me. Trying to hit a HR every time up in a cold streak, not using the back board or trying to dribble around people instead of just crashing the boards for garbage points and what not.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Feb 16, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I think it can also be attributed to losing a guy that truly scores a lot of dirty goals (ie. Knuble). Hartnell has shown some willingness to go to the net, but nothing like Knuble used to do.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
BTW, I read this blog post on The Flying P before Geoff’s response, and it got my hackles up. I’ll probably be dismissed as a Briere apologist, but, honestly, he’s been nothing but roasted since he got here. I don’t see how he’s ever escaped blame. It’s just that now there are so many people (HC, GM, owner, players, etc.) to blame for the failures, he’s no longer the sole focus. Last year he was routinely excoriated and I can’t read a single article on csnphilly.com or philly.com without some commenter saying he’s killing this team with his contract and play.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
THIS ^
I have actually read almost this very post about him. Really? Give his money back? The Flyers aren’t losing money and the players are what make the league. How many years did he produce while the Sabres were underpaying him for his performance?
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
¿Cómo se dice en inglés, “hackles?”
I’m writing a dance song based on that phrase.
Ev’rybody get,
Ev’rybody get,
Ev’rybody get your hackles up.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
get (one's) hackles up
To be extremely insulted or irritated.
Usage notes: Hackles are the hairs on the back of a dog’s neck which stand up when it is angry.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
By the way, there’s really a very very easy way to discuss this.
Would you trade Danny Briere straight up for Chris Drury?
Would you trade Danny Briere straight up for Scott Gomez?
Briere———161gp, 63g, 137pts———- $6.365m until June 2015
Drury———-220gp, 57g, 136pts——— $7.050m until June 2012
Gomez——-216gp, 42g, 128pts———- $7.357m until June 2014
Maybe you could make the case for Drury’s contract ending three years sooner, but thats the only argument for NOT liking Danny most of the three.
funny, i was just about to compare Gomez and Drury because that is essentially the apples to apples comparison.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Briere has 20pts in 23 playoff games for the Flyers. Hard to call his contract a failure with that. Yes, his numbers are down this year but so are Hartnells, Gagne, and to some extent Richards too. This needs to change for the flyers to be suscessful in the post season because Carter and they third line aren’t going to be able to carry the team.
I don’t think anyone really doesn’t like Briere, I think every just wishes his cap hit was about a million dollars left. If it was, everyone would be happy.
I think for the most part everyone is just a little mad that the year the Flyers were down and they had a ton of money to spend and a great draft position the best guy out there was Briere and the best player to draft was JVR. Dont get me wrong those guys are both good players and JVR still has a long way to go and plenty of potential, but Im sure most of wish that we couldve signed a true star player and gotten to draft a guy like Ovechkin or even had a crack at Kane.
Please find me a better free agent signing (as a scoring forward) since the lockout than Danny Briere.
I’ll even give you a head start with Marian Gaborik.
Gaborik Season 1: .6g/game, 1.02pts/g, $7.5m cap hit until age
Briere Season 1: .4g/game, .86pts/g, $6.3m cap hit
A difference of 16.4g and 13.12 pts for $1.2m in cap hit. I’d say thats pretty equal value.
First off, he blew out his knee after 56 games.
Cammalleri————- .464g/game, .857pts/game, $6m cap hit
Briere——————— .392g/game, .911pts/game, $6.3m cap hit
@@@@@@@@@ I screwed up Danny’s points everytime above, its actually .911 @@@@@@@@@@@
Before that the signing looked great. Briere has had his fair share of injuries. Also Cammalleri’s contract is shorter than Briere’s.
Where are you getting Briere’s .911p/g?
As a Flyer, Briere is 0.898 points per game, and he’s 0.755 this year.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
that’s the thing. Flying P had a nice blog, but in fairness, most of those guys on the list resigned with their respective teams, so it’s hard to really say it’s an apples to apples comparison because most of them never reached the FA market.
Jason Spezza: 15 goals / 18 assists / 33 pts
Jarome Iginla: 27 goals / 30 assists / 57 pts
Anze Kopitar: 28 goals / 36 assists / 64 pts
Pavel Datsyuk: 17 goals / 32 assists / 49 pts
Paul Stastny: 12 goals / 42 assists / 54 pts
Ilya Kovalchuk: 32 goals / 31 assists / 63 pts (we’ll see what his real contract is like this July)
Patrick Marleau: 38 goals / 26 assists / 64 pts
Ryan Smith: 19 goals / 19 assists / 38 pts (good comparison)
Daniel Sedin: 16 goals / 38 assists / 54 pts
Henrik Sedin: 25 goals / 55 assists / 80 pts
Henrik Zetterberg: 16 goals / 32 assists / 48 pts
Patrick Elias: 11 goals / 19 assists / 30 pts
Paul Kariya: 12 goals / 17 assists / 29 pts (good comparison)
Mike Camalleri: 26 goals / 22 assists / 48 pts (good comparison)
so only 3 guys are really good comparisons and Camalleri is the only guy that maybe is a good argument, but I think Mario dealt with these numbers already.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Ovechkin-type payers aren’t in the draft every year. Same with the Cindy-type players. They’re once in a long while draft prospects and even at that there is no guarantee. How many Cups did we win with Lindros (who was also called “The Next One”)? Anyone remember Daigle on Ottawa? The guy was a first pick in 93 and a total bust, but you know who the #2 pick was that year? Mr Pronger. I guess what I’m saying is, being in a great draft position isn’t as important as knowing WHO you’re scouting, otherwise guys like Khabibulin (204th), Theo Fleury (166th), and Robitaille (171st) wouldn’t have been picked as low as they were. =)
I understand that, but Im saying since the Flyers are rarely there wouldnt it have been nice to get a guy like Ovechkin, Crosby, or Malkin. I mean I would have certainly been a nice to stink for only one year and pick up a superstar rather than “rebuilding” aka “tanking” for a few years to get top picks like Pitt and Wash
It’s tough to win the lottery. That’s essentially what we would have needed to do to land one of those star players. Better chance of being struck by lightning as they say…
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
We actually lost the lottery, Patrick Kane was taken by Chicago as the #1 pick even though we had the worst record. Guess we were struck by lightning
by Crosby sucks on Feb 16, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
Also to comment on Briere’s dip in performance I would look at how not as many penalties are being called as were in 06-07. The game is sliding back towards letting them play a little more, not every ticky tack clutch and grab is being called now as they were right after the lockout. I think that has something to do with his lower numbers
I said this earlier about Danny and Giroux. Both of them keep getting moved around like $10 prostitutes. Have you noticed how much Giroux has been producing since he has had time to develop with JVR and Asham. Danny has been on the 2nd, 3rd, and 1st line, playing RW, C, and LW. Once he gets a solid position with solid linemates, he’ll start producing on a more consistent basis.
"NO HONOR"
Also important to note—and this is no excuse—is that Danny needs chemistry with his linemates. If he can’t develop it, he slumps. Remember how they had to bring in Prospal (tour of duty II) in order to help him when Gags went down?
The way I’ve heard it described, chemistry with one’s linemates means others on your line seeing the same play you see as it develops simultaneously and working together to achieve the goal (pun intended). It takes time to develop this, and especially if your linemates are slumping (or perhaps not as good, or stupid in some player’s cases) and you’re moved around a lot from line to line and position to position—well, obviously, chemistry will be delayed as a result.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I forget where I read it ...
… but someone somewhere made the point that if Briere made half as much as he did, no one would criticize his play whatsoever. That’s the double-edged sword of an elite athlete signing a huge contract. If you do not put up gigantic numbers to go with the amount of money being paid to you, you become an instant target of criticism.
That being said, Briere has never lashed out at the critics, seems to work hard and has produced well in Philly. Unfortunately, he has been bounced around the lineup often, had some nagging injuries and is too small to play a “Philly” brand of hockey. I hope the switch to LW energizes him.
The word contextualising makes me feel all tingly.
I agree with every point you made, Geoff. Well done
My only criticism of Briere is his seemingly incessant stupid stick penalties
"NZFlyerfan"
My only criticism of Briere is his seemingly incessant stupid stick penalties
True. And frustrating. And definitely something he should be better about, and ought to be able to improve on.
But, he has drawn two more than he’s taken. Though he’s 32nd in the league in penalties taken per 60, he isn’t, on whole, hurting the team.
(Penalties taken per 60 is a very interesting list. A who’s who of Philadelphia Flyers past and present.)
Whoops, that was bad data. Change that to minimum 30 games played, and Briere is 19th. Change it to forwards and 30 games, which is what I meant to do, and Briere is 14th.
yes, our good friend Scotty Hartnell. Between him and Briere, one of them is always in the box for something usually quite stupid. Funny that they are both beating Carcillo, who is supposedly our loose cannon.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Jon put up his rebuttal
which you can read here. Again, it’s worth the read.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 12:27 PM EST reply actions
he still doesn’t address the point that mario made and I support which is that for a true FA signing, Briere is pretty much in line with the other’s production. You can’t point to Jarome Iginla’s production and say Briere needs to match up to that, because even though they make comparable dollars, Iginla has never tested the free agent market. If Iginla had truly been a FA the same time as Briere was, would he have gotten 6.5MM or would his salary be 8MM? He didn’t truly test the market.
It’s not fair. to make a legit point he has to compare all true FA signings in this range and break it down from there.
I’m not saying Briere isn’t overpaid (i’d say he is by about $1MM), but to try to make a point that he should be producing typical to other guys in his range is a little short sighted.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
And that I agree. There’s a difference between resigning and leaving via free agency.
But like he said, his point was just to show that Briere is underperforming. That’s true. The problem is the details.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
in a vacuum, yes he is. comparable to other true FA’s, not so much.
It’s fair to say, Briere needs/should be carrying much more of a workload than he currently is. He should be a PPG player at his salary. However, if you do a true comparison, like Mario suggest above, by comparing what FA’s have gotten on the market and how their stats relate, it’s a bit cleaner of an observation.
And once you do that and see the guys on the list like Wade Redden, Chris Drury, Scott Gomez etc., you realize that Homer didn’t do that bad with the Briere contract because it arguable could have been significantly worse.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
The simple fact is, Briere’s market value cannot (as that dude attempts to do) be measured as “an NHL player”. His market value must be measures as “a UFA NHL Player”.
And as “a UFA NHL Player” he’s met, if not exceeded, reasonable expectations.
Exactly.
Plus, the simple fact that Briere turned down MORE money from Montreal hasn’t been mentioned anywhere (here or there).
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 16, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s met or exceeded reasonable expectations, I think everyone would agree that reasonable expectations were probably a point per game. (probably a whole other discussion)
What he hasn’t been is a total waste of money comparable to what you’re seeing in the Drury etc. contracts.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
I’m saying reasonable expectations for a UFA.
As you said earlier, he’s probably overpaid by about $1m as “an NHL player”. Reasonable expectations have to include that UFAs are going to be overpaid for their performance.
It’s a pretty interesting discussion though and although I don’t have time, it would be awesome if someone had a list of UFA’s that signed contracts after the lockout and broke them down by what they are getting paid based on some all encompassing metric (ie. CORSI maybe) to get a value of each player. (maybe someone has already done it?)
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 16, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
could be worse
During that summer we could have signed Gomez, Drury or Briere both Gomez and Drury got more money and have produced at a much lower rate
total points since signing (games played)
Gomez – 170 (217)
Drury- 136 (220)
Briere – 137 (161)

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