Calling Time Out.
by mikefive on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 AM EST
239 comments
Eds. Note: This was bumped from the fanposts because, well, I greatly enjoyed it. You don't have to agree, but it's worth reading.
Ladies and gents,
I'm as frustrated as the rest of you - if not more so - with the state of the Flyers nowadays. There's a lot to dislike, and there's very little to inspire confidence (at least for this year). Quite frankly, I felt flat-out furious with this team earlier on in the season, because I felt like I had been lied to. The Flyers would be "relentless" every game; "next year" would surely be "now."
Not so fast. Instead of a dynamic offense, smothering defense, and good-enough-to-win goaltending, we find ourselves with an offense prone to deep funks, an improving defense (with little depth in case of injuries), and... good-enough-to-win goaltending. So we got roughly 40% of what we were promised, and we see where that's gotten us. Yuck. Oh well, there's always NEXT YEAR! (Cue circus music.)
As much as the state of the team flat-out sucks right now, I still have hope for the future. Remember, the Flyers are second all-time in win percentage to the Montreal Canadiens. They have a history of retooling in offseasons to try to get the team competitive each and every year. Additionally, the Flyers lead all expansion teams in Stanley Cup semifinal appearances (15) and playoff appearances (34). So, as much as this season sucks, we can have faith that the organ-eye-zation will do whatever it can to right the ship. Obviously, we have to hope that they don't majorly screw up again, and we need to pray that Homer (or his replacement) learned from his mistakes and gets the team back on track. But given the team's history, I have faith that they'll be back for real next year.
My real purpose in writing this is out of concern for us, the fans. As I said in the intro, I understand the frustration all too well. Remember, I became a fan when Clarke and Barber were still playing in the early 1980s, so I've lived and died a lot with this team. I've always been proud to be a fan and always will be. And it seems like most of us here are of the same mindset. But it also seems like we're letting the struggles of the team CHANGE that mindset a little bit. The long and short of it is that there's been a lot of finger-pointing, name-calling, blame-spreading, etc., etc. going on - not between members of the community, but from us to the team.
Today's FanShot about the team's cars being snowed in was a prime example - an anecdote about two veteran teammates being particularly helpful somehow became an angry discussion about how Richards should not be the captain. Furthermore, there was some hope that the coaching staff were all screaming at the team leaders because they lost. I'm not calling out any of the posters because I almost wrote something along those lines myself. It's easy to get caught up in the negativity when the team is losing - particularly because the team has been an important part of my life for so long. But let's think about two things:
1. Would it really help the team if the coaching staff acted like WIP callers?
2. Does it help the team or allow us to enjoy the games any more when WE act like WIP callers?
Now, I'm not saying we have to drink the orange Kool-Aid and pretend everything is okay. To the contrary, we should acknowledge what is wrong BUT still see the team through it all. We should be proud to be Flyers fans, and we should be proud to expect more from them because the organization has set high standards for itself. I'm only getting concerned about all of the pouting around here (my own included) because it's reminding me of the "You've just changed... that's all" aspect of a romantic breakup. It might sound silly but I just hope no one jumps ship because the team is in a bad way. We've gotten through these times and we will again. Hang in there Flyers fans!
Oh, and if that didn't get you, maybe this will. Towards the end of my regular readership of Puck Daddy, I found myself reading the comments (bad mikefive!) and there was an argument between Flyers and Penguins fans. The Flyers fans were attacking the Pens fans with the tired - though somewhat justified - argument about fan loyalty. The Flyers fans talked about sticking with their team through thick and thin, unlike the Pens fans in the early 2000s. One Pens fan shot back with something along the lines of this: "Well, that just goes to show how much smarter we are than you. Why would we waste our time and money to go see a bad team?"
Well gee, I don't know, maybe because they're supposed to be YOUR TEAM?
Let's never be like that.
This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
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My response to Penguins fan is this: You can’t just be a fan through the good times, you also have to support the team through the bad times. Otherwise, you’re just an opportunist. And even when your team wins, you’ll be happy; but you won’t know real joy because only those who’ve long suffered through it all can really appreciate winning the ultimate prize.
What kinds of friends must these people be? Sorry, you lost your job and your Dad’s dying, but I’m outta here, because you’re no fun anymore.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
You know what keeps me going when I get pissed off at this team?
Close your eyes and think about this: Mike Richards is wheeling around during warmups at the Wachovia Center. His helmet is off. The crowd is standing behind the benches like always. A crappy U2 song is blaring over the speakers. And there’s a ‘Stanley Cup Final’ patch on an orange jersey.
I don’t even have to picture him raising the Cup and I get chills. That’s what keeps me going.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Feb 8, 2010 1:23 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Can’t it be a good U2 song instead? Like something from The Unforgettable Fire?
I should know better than to ask them to play decent music at a Flyers game.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I miss the days when they used to Pump AC/DC “You Shook me All night Long” and the volume was at 11
by Prometheus74 on Feb 8, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
but look at these, they are all at 10. The sound is 1 higher
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I will root for this team through thick and thin. That doesn’t mean that when the stink I cant watch… for instance… every time we take that 3 or 4 goal disadvantage, I have to change the channel. I cannot watch this team when were losing, not because lack of fansmenship and lack of loyalty, but because it physically hurts me to see this team suffer. I will forever BLEED orange and black.
by orangeandblack20 on Feb 8, 2010 9:43 AM EST reply actions
And this is why the Flyers will never do what it takes to rebuild the team the right way. They’ll be like the Phillies, who took a decade to slowly but the organization, instead of selling all the pieces and starting over with a better hand.
It seems odd to say now, but the Phillies were actually helped by malcontented players. They wanted to build around Burrell but have guys like Rolen and Schilling at the core. Too bad Rolen and Schilling wanted out. In that sense, the Phils were forced into starting over with a better hand.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I still see the Phillies as lucky. They take low percentage moves in the off-season and pray that they end up on the better side of the equation. Brad Lidge after disaster in Houston? Jayson Werth? Shane Victorino? These guys were unknowns when they were acquired by the Phillies. They were low risk high reward type players. The Phillies took a long time to develop because Ruiz, Hamels, Howard and Utley were all homegrown talent. It was never about “resetting” for the Phillies, rather, it was always grow the prospects, try to sign free agents that aren’t the top echelon, but better than average (Moyer, Ibanez, Feliz, Thome, Millwood, Tom Gordon). None of these names were big names, but they were low end risks that turned out for the better. The Flyers just haven’t had the same luck.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Moyer was a deadline trade.
And “grow the prospects, try to sign free agents that aren’t the top echelon, but better than average” is exactly what I mean when I say “rebuild the team the right way”.
It seems like the Flyers are committed to growing the prospects now, so that’s the good news. Their problem is the overspending on top-level free agents. I think they’re starting to realize the error of their ways, but it’s too late for this season.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Agreed. And I wish they would just get rid of guys like Briere, Gagne, Hartnell and try and get some prospects or some cap space and try and build around some of the younger guys.
Gagne’s only 29 and Hartnell’s 27. Carter is 25.
I can see the argument that Briere and Gagne are old(er), but Hartnell should be in the prime of his career.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
haha, fair enough
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
What prospects?
The only 1st round choice they’ll have in a four year run they traded away at the age of 19.
hockey is a bit different from baseball in this sense. I forget how many rounds of baseball draft there are, but i know there are many more of them than hockey. Plus, baseball has the advantage of signing foreign talent from the latin americas.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Uhhh...
Giroux and JVR are still considered “prospects” even though they are with the big club.
How about DeSerres, Morrison, Ericcson, Maroon, Bourdon, Marshall, Legein, Matsumoto… don’t they count?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
No, not really. Not to compare to Utley, Howard, Hamels, etc.
A few of those guys might play in the NHL for a while. None of them are all-stars.
Howard was not at all pegged to be an all-star.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Utley was initially pegged as a utility infielder by many. No lie. Hell of a bat, horrible defense in the minors. They tried him at short and third (they wanted a Rolen replacement) before converting him to 2B. He was never a sure thing. Only Hamels was and the only reason he fell to the Phillies was because of his injury history.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
The Phillies have a reputation of drafting guys that are great athletes, but horrible baseball players when they’re drafted. The idea seems to be to get high-potential guys, and teach them to play baseball.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
“To be fair, Chase Utley has never been considered a great fielder. Although he was the starting shortstop as a freshman at UCLA, the Bruins moved him to designated hitter by the end of his freshman season. He eventually found his way back onto the field at second.”
from Scout.com, when Utley was in AAA
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
These are the Baseball America rankings since 1990.
In 2000 was first team College All American. He was drafted 15th overall in 2000. He played in the Future’s Game in 2001. In 2001, his first pro season, he was the 5th best prospect in the Phillies system. In 2003, he was ranked the 2nd best prospect (behind Cole).
Howard was drafted in 2001, and fell to the 5th round. But by 2003, he was also selected for the Future’s Game. In 2005, he was the #27 prospect in baseball. He was the #3 prospect in the system in 2004, #1 in 2005. He joined the Phils half-way through 2005.
They were both highly-coveted prospects before they got to MLB.
I’m losing track of your point, since I’m staring at names such as Gavin Floyd (#1 in 2003, #9 in MLB), Marlon Byrd (#3, #63), Taylor Buchholz (#4, #88), and Anderson Machado (#7).
Howard was ranked 8th that year, and Utley was a lower MLB prospect than Floyd and Byrd.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Bourn was traded too
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Howard was ranked 8th that year
These are pre-season rankings. 2003 was with one year of pro experience and three years before he got to MLB. He didn’t even reach AA until the 2004 season.
Utley was a lower MLB prospect than Floyd and Byrd
And that has absolutely no bearing at all on the conversation. The point is that the Flyers don’t have stud players like Hamels, Utley, Howard in the pipeline.
you mean this ville lederhosen guy we just traded for isn’t a superstar in the pipeline?
man, color me disappointed.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 8, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
They mostly weren’t projected to be stud players, though. Utley was outside the top 100 until 2003, when he was ranked 83rd in the minors, the year before coming to the majors. He was considered too weak to play any position except second, and was considered marginal even there. It was entirely possible he could have wound up solely as a DH, because he was considered to have an adequate glove but an unacceptably poor throwing arm.
Howard was seen as a great bat with major defensive liabilities – he’d be similar to JvR, a player who’s got great hands and footwork, but isn’t considered a top two-way player.
Hamels was considered an extreme injury risk, who slid down the draft charts because of that, similar to Laliberte (although Hamels had more upside than Laliberte does).
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
UTLEY WAS THE 15th OVERALL SELECTION AND 1ST TEAM ALL AMERICAN.
He was not “marginal”.
You’re reading weakness side of the scouting reports as if they were the overall ratings. Every player drafted (except maybe Strousberg) goes into the minor league system and continues to develop for a minimum of one year (in the very rarest of cases) and generally 3-5 years before they are major league ready.
They all have weaknesses.
“UTLEY WAS THE 15th OVERALL SELECTION AND 1ST TEAM ALL AMERICAN.”
That’s nice. Adam Johnson was the 2nd overall selection in Utley’s draft class, and was out of the Major Leagues by the end of 2003. Luis Montanez went third, and didn’t reach the majors until 2008. Mike Stodolka went 4th, and still hasn’t reached the majors. But they’re not second basemen, you say? Shaun Boyd was drafted 13th as a second baseman, and has never hit the major leagues. Being drafted in the first round doesn’t mean you’re a stud (with extremely rare exceptions). It means you have potential.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
The point is that the Flyers don’t have stud players like Hamels, Utley, Howard in the pipeline.
If that’s the point, there’s an important distinction between hockey and baseball. It doesn’t take 3-5 years to make the NHL. Giroux and JVR are “studs” who are not yet established stars. Just because they’re in the NHL doesn’t mean they’re equally prepared as Howard when he won ROY.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
You’ve got Carter, Richards, GVR, and Giroux. That’s not enough.
Carter and Richards (both nhl in 2005) are like Burrell and Rollins (MLB in 2000 and 2001).
Now they need to keep going. The Phils went:
2005 Utley and Madson
2006 Howard
2007 Hamels
The Flyers go
2008 Giroux
2009 JVR
Nothing until 2012.
So, let me get this straight:
2000 Burrell
2001 Rollins
Wait four years
2005 Utley and Madson
2006 Howard
2007 Hamels
Flyers
2005 Carter and Richards
(Wait three years?)
2008 Giroux
2009 JVR
So they’re a year ahead of schedule and only short one injury-prone one great year/one mediocre year player and one important role player? They’re not that far off then.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
By the way this:
only short one injury-prone one great year/one mediocre year player and one important role player
is probably the dumbest thing you’ve ever written here.
I think calling that the dumbest thing he’s ever written is quite a stretch. The Phillies chances do hinge very closely on whether Hamels is pitching with confidence or pitching like crap, and Madson is an important role player, who was not as dominant this past year as the one before. I’m pretty sure he was trying to do a direct response to your argument, and respond within the parameters of your argument, rather than try to make a separate one.
You both make valid points, but it’s still a bit of an apples and oranges comparison in some respects. Your looking at a draft where you pick so many more players, and you have more farm teams under your direct control, you are able to make a lot more mistakes because you have so many more prospects. In the NHL, the team may have some say over their AHL or even ECHL teams, but they have no control in the OHL, Q, etc. MLB has a lot more direct control, from instructional league up to AAA.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
How is that so dumb? Hamels is injury prone, he had one great year (2008) and one mediocre year (last year), and Madson is an important role player.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
I thought you, in each comma, were addressing a different player from the list, didn’t realize you were describing Hamels with all of those tags. Regardless:
1) Hamels broke his arm in a bar fight. He got hit by a line drive. Most of his injuries were of the accidental, not mechanical, variety.
2) Then, after pitching way more innings than ever before in his life, he had a setback/minor injury in getting his arm back in spring training which caused him not to be ready for the season start.
3) As everyone with sense predicted, after throwing a ridiculous number of pitches in 2008, he struggled in 2009. It wasn’t even a mediocre year, because his performance is what should’ve been expected of him given the previous year’s pitch count.
4) Set up man is arguably a more important role than closer, and Madson was clearly the best bullpen arm on the team. Eyre is a role player, Madson is like 12th most important on the team.
I’m not going through every details of your response, but Hamels had back problems during his minor league career that slowed his upward movement to the big club. Not all of his injuries were accidental.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Also, he had broken his arm during delivery of a pitch in HS—that’s why he fell to the Phillies in the draft in the first place. It made him add the CU to his repertoire. And he broke his pitching hand in said bar fight—hardly an accident.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I stated that the Flyers need to blow it up and rebuild in a better way. And that the Phillies are a blueprint for that better way.
Geoff is contending the the Flyers are already following the same blueprint as the Phils.
blow up the team two years after the ECF appearance where the best players on the team on under 25 years old that makes sense yet buying out older under performing player contracts to free up cap space is the worst idea ever
Because when you buy out contracts THEY STILL COUNT AGAINST THE CAP.
You don’t get cap relief by buying out contracts.
For players 26 or older, a buyout costs two-thirds of remaining contract value.
On a buyout, the team takes a cap hit for a percentage of the buyout value (according to a very complex formula) spread over twice the length of the remaining contract years.
I wouldn’t cost them the whole amount so you do get some cap relief.
That is not at all what I’m contending.
You are the one who made the comparison, I just fit your claim into a nice, neat list. Nowhere did I say the Flyers are following the same blueprint.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Dragongirl does.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like I’m in trouble here for some reason… That was like a ‘called to the principal’s office’ moment there, Geoff.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
haha, sorry. Didn’t intend to give you butterflies.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
I feel that Homer mis-calculated how the cap would escalate and the economy the Briere deal at 6 million would be a good deal if the cap continued to rise by 1-2 million or more each year instead the economy tanked the cap has stopped dead and we are stuck with contracts eat up higher percentage of the cap than we could have hoped
That was Gillick’s specialty…the low key signing to try in a hole or add depth…Moyer, Blanton, Eyre, Dobbs, Stairs etc.
But there is a big difference, Gillick was hamstrung by a budget, and with the Phillies it seems like a hard budget but he had some latitude. With the Flyers, they have a cap and because of earlier moves made, Homer has handcuffed himself.
The Flyers have made similar attempts that the Phillies have. JVR, Carter, Gagne, Richards, Rollins are all homegrown talent. Briere is reminiscent of the Thome signing. Our goalie situation is similar to the phillies situation at 3rd base, where we just try and plug any sort of player there to stop the bleeding. Pronger? Halladay. Victorino, Werth? Hartnell and Coburn.
I agree that this method is anything but statistical, but the Flyers have committed to the young talent, as the Phillies have. The one fundamental difference however is that Phillies have a championship, and the Flyers do not. Would we be sitting here discussing these things if the Flyers won last year or the year before?
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
No, the Flyers continue to trade away draft picks and young players.
The Phillies stockpiled prospects for about five years. They refused to part with Hamels or Myers when they were AAA highly covetted prospects. When Howard and Utley were blocked by Thome and Polanco, they traded the veterans away to allow the prospects to develop, rather than trade the prospects to acquire veterans for other positions.
Once they were the best team in their “conference”, then they used the system to acquire major league talent.
This is not even remotely what the Flyers do.
The Flyers are doing exactly what the Yankees did in the early to mid 2000’s. They destroyed their entire farm system trading away prospects for over priced veterans. And look what it got them? Nothing. When they were a dynasty in the 90’s they did so with young home grown talent and some guys added for filler and depth. This year, they flat out, out spent everyone, a luxury that hockey teams don’t have.
The Yankees value making the playoffs every year, because once you make the playoffs, you have a shot at the title every year. Which is more than rebuilding teams like the Orioles have to say
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
And the Yankees don’t value making the playoffs every year. They value winning the World Series every year. The Flyers seem to be ok with just making the playoffs. That’s a primary difference.
One must make the playoff every year to win a World Series.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
The Phillies were also bad for a period of five years while the Flyers were making the playoffs. The Flyers try to stay competitive on a year to year basis, which is why you see the draft picks get traded. The Phillies took the late 1990s and early 2000s off from being competitive, and stockpiled their farm. The Flyers have missed the playoffs once in the last (I believe the last 14 years). Different mantras from both teams: The Flyers want to be competitive every year and shy away from rebuilding. They contributed one year to rebuilding. The Phillies weren’t built in one year, and if you want to see 4-5 losing seasons from the Flyers in exchange for the possibility of a cup, be my guest
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but the Phillies clearly understand now that in order to be good for years they need to have a farm system. As evidence by the Cliff Lee trade.
Yes, but all those same people crying for Lee to stil be here are probably also crying about the Flyers stinking. You can’t have it both ways. The Flyers do the exact things that the WIP crowd wants—trades away the farm in a constant “win now” mentality—with nothing to show for it.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Well, I’m still griping about the Lee trade because it didn’t really benefit the farm system in my opinion. We got three prospects. If we’d kept Lee, he’d have been a Group A free agent, and we’d either have re-signed Lee or have gotten two first-round picks in compensation. Essentially, we traded a season of Lee for one prospect and $9 million (minus whatever his replacement earns – and I don’t count Blanton’s contract, because we would have re-signed him anyway).
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
But in essence we got back more for Lee than what we gave up to get him. Plus, we got a decent 4th OF in the deal who’s still here. Lee was never going to resign here and any sandwich picks we would have gotten when he walked would help us, what, in 4 or 5 years?
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I agree, we got back more than we gave up, so its a wash. I do think Lee might have resigned here…I think his agent seemed to want Lee to test free agency more than Lee did. But Lee was not signing a 3 yr 60 mil deal like Halladay did. And that’s fine. This was Lee’s one big chance to cash in. Halladay already had that chance in a previous extension he signed with Toronto…in which he signed a less than market value deal to give the team some flexibility to sign other guys.
I still say he never was going to sign here. The Phillies don’t do long term deals for pitchers and he was going to want at least 5 or 6. I think it’s a smart way to be, because most long term pitching contracts don’t work out.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Phillies don’t seem to do long term with anyone. Amaro loves the 3 year deal. With the 3rd year being the “Amaro Year”.
Except with Utley. But that was a “no brainer”.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
And they did it at the right time, because now he’s comparatively cheap compared to Howard. Everytime Howard demanded a raise and I knew how much more he was going to make than Utley, I got cranky because I think Utley brings more to the team than people know. I have nothing against Howard, I just personally don’t like him getting that much more than Utley does.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly. Howard is exceptional, which is why I argue that if you have to choose between extending Howard or Werth, you do Howard.
Although, Utley is far and away the best 2B in the business. If he played 1B (which is the only other infield position he could play), he’d be average.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
No no no.
You’re mixing your analysis. Howard being exceptional doesn’t mean you choose him over Werth. It means his services cost more.
There is a valid argument that Werth’s production for his salary will be of greater benefit to the team than Howard’s.
I’m not picking a side, just straightening it out.
I think there is a lot less supply for what Utley brings to the table than what Howard does. Utley is without a doubt the best 2nd basemen in baseball. Howard isn’t even the best 1B in the National League.
This
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Same thing as I said above. Don’t confuse market value or supply of the commodity for value to the team.
Condrey is without a doubt the best long reliever in baseball. Howard isn’t even the best 1B in the National League.
See?
Sure, but I think we’re OK for the next few years anyway. Francisco and Mayberry will be the Ibanez and Werth replacements (barring freakish occurences), and the infield other than Polanco is set, and all right around 30. I don’t think we’re planning on doing a major shakeup until 3 to 5 years from now, which would be when new draft picks would be around ready to come up. The extra outfielder was a “sunk gain” that shouldn’t be considered when deciding whether or not to deal Lee, so the decision was between trading Lee and getting three prospects, all of which have question marks, or keeping Lee, paying him $9M for a year, and getting two sandwich picks. I’m not saying it was a bad decision by the club, it’s just not the decision I would have made.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Francisco and Mayberry are going to be Ibanez and Werth replacements!?! I sure hope not; otherwise, our window is going to be a lot shorter than previously thought.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Short-term, they probably will be. I don’t think we’ll re-sign either Werth or Ibanez, and Werth’s contract expires after this year, Ibanez after next year. I’m not sure if Brown will be ready next year, although he probably will be ready in 2012, so we may only need one or the other.
Gillies has had one good year, and projects to be a center fielder, not a corner guy.
Gose and Santana are the future (assuming they continue developing), but they’re both waaay too young, as are Kelly Dugan and Zach Collier.
Jiwan James and Leandro Castro are both great athletes, but not polished enough yet.
Barring changes, I would not be surprised if next year (after Werth leaves) is Ibanez-Victorino-Mayberry, with the year after being Brown-Victorino-Mayberry. I forgot we had Ibanez for two more years, which was why I was expecting a year of Francisco before Brown was ready.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
It’s not what you think it is: http://www.thegoodphight.com/2010/1/24/1268066/cost-certainty-what-does-it-mean
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree with everything you said here.
Francisco is not an MLB-starter. He’s a good 4th outfielder on a contending team, a 3rd outfielder on a bad team.
Polanco is signed for four years, which is longer than both Rollins and Howard. 3rd base is not the position that has yet to be set.
What the hell is a “sunk gain”??
You are correct: 3 and $18
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
It’s like a sunk loss, except when you get something instead of spending it – I had originally typed sunk loss, but realized you couldn’t really consider getting a player to be a loss.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Sunk loss is when you realize you already spent money on something that didn’t provide return on the investment, but you cut your losses instead of throwing good money after bad.
Now I’m going to replace that definition with your explanation.
Sunk gain is when you realize you already spent money on something that didn’t provide return on the investment, but you cut your losses instead of throwing good money after bad.
???
It’s something that happened in the past and should be independent of future decisions – getting Francisco didn’t alter Lee’s value.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Oh, then I 100% disagree.
Before the season started, the Phils made public their desire for a RH bat off the bench. (Remember Nomar was offered a contract in spring training?)
At the deadline, the Phils were looking for a starting pitcher and still searching for that RH bat. When they started talking to Cleveland, they absolutely killed two birds with one stone. The Phils absolutely sent value to Cleveland to add Francisco into the deal.
Sorry, I worded my part poorly. I agree with what you say, that Francisco added value to the trade where we got Lee. The sunk cost part comes in when deciding whether to trade Lee or Francisco (or both, or neither). The fact that we received Francisco has no bearing on Lee’s value when trading Lee away. Once we have Lee and Francisco, their values are independent of each other, regardless of having gotten them as a package.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Thats fine.
I’m just saying you can’t compare the package the Phils sent to Cleveland to the package the Phils got from Seattle as a straight up exchange.
True. I was comparing what the Phils got from Seattle (three prospects) for what the Phils would get if they didn’t trade or re-sign Lee (two first-round picks). The prospects to Cleveland are also a sunk cost when determining whether or not to trade Lee. One of my pet theories is that GMs let sunk costs like that influence them on whether or not to trade players. Most people are affected by sunk costs, and I don’t think GMs are any different.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
That applies to Mario D's comment
I said Amen to his
I’m just saying you can’t compare the package the Phils sent to Cleveland to the package the Phils got from Seattle as a straight up exchange
as MikeFive stated the Flyers have the second highest winning percentage in the history of the NHL so they know “how to be good for years”
That and a dollar three-eighty get you a cup of coffee without a championship. I am sorry but I am over competing.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
yep but as I learned with the Phillies for me personally I rather have something worth watching each winter that have to wait 10 years betwee hockey seasons, the Phillies World Series victory high lasted about 2 weeks then it was all about winning another one if the Phillies didn’t make the playoffs again for another 10 years would we be happy I wouldn’t I am glad they won but I more glad they have a chance to win again and again I don’t buy into that I will give up a decade of the sport I love for a one day parade mentality
It’s easy to say the Phillies have a chance to win again and again since they just went to back to back World Series. But the Flyers haven’t been back to the Finals since the beating the Wings handed them. Over 10 years. Not to mention it was just a few seasons ago the Flyers had the worst record in the league, and it wasn’t even close.
4-5 seasons to rebuild is a ridiculous estimate, it’s more like 1-2, but absolutely I would take 4-5 losing seasons from the Flyers in order to build an awesome franchise.
Sit down and lay out the blueprint to the fans. Then talk about it every step of the way. Explain that you’re signing this player for two years because you want to have money free in three years. Explain that they’re trading player X to acquire draft pick Y because they hope player Y will be NHL ready in three seasons. It would be awesome and most Flyers fans would stick by the team.
The Penguins took 4 years to rebuild the team that they have today. In those 4 years they finished 5th all 4 years. Their fans stopped showing up to games, and they almost lost their team to Kansas City.
Do we really want to go back to the days of Robert Person, Travis Lee, Doug Glanville, Bruce Chen?
For the Flyers:
do we want to go back to the days of Ramzi Abid, Dick Tarnstrom, Jan Hrdina, Jean Sebastian Aubin etc?
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
The Flyers would never move to Kansas City. The fans would show up, too. They might show up just to boo, but they would show up.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Yeah we’d show up to boo, but could you go 4 years without any hope of winning a championship? Granted, things aren’t too great now, but the previous 2 years we had good teams capable of winning the Cup. Just faced those bastards from the other side of the state twice, and well we know how that ended. Also, those 2 teams that beat us last 2 years, were also the finalists in the East.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
I’d feel better if it showed that they had a real plan and proved that they were going to stick to it, no matter what. And get me a good GM, for the love of God!
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I don’t think I could suck it up for 4 years. I’d rather have what we have now, albeit it is inherently flawed
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Kansas City is #1 on the list anymore, wasn’t the Isles preseason game pretty badly attended considering these people knew they were trying to win a team?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
But now honestly: Does that overcome the Isles/Kings show?
And when you have little to no hope of acquiring a team, do you really want to show up to watch some mediocre (expected to be at the time) teams?
I don’t fault KC for that one. It’s a lot different when it’s YOUR team, as opposed to SOME team.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
I’m only saying that a lot of people noticed that the fans didn’t come, and it may have slipped them down the priority list. I’m not saying that the fans are completely at fault, I just meant I’m not sure they’re the #1 destination right now, they might have fallen to a lower number.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Ah. Well, I think they’re still #1 US market, but I guess it all depends on the owner.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
for whom Mario, the Pens or the Flyers?
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Flyers. I believe thats when Kevin Dineen was captain? The years we took Forsberg with the 1st overall or whatever.
We drafted Forsberg in 91… Just to make sure I follow, your point was that fans were still showing up those years, right?
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I know the Forsberg pick very high and the one the Flyers earned by being a terrible team the season before.
Yet the Spectrum was still sold out most nights.
Perhaps the Spectrum was sold out most night because we had recently gone to a Stanley Cup Finals maybe?
Also, from 89-94 the Flyers finished 5th and 6th off and on in the Wales Conference. Like I said earlier 4-5 years of losing seasons before you actually become a legitimate contender
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps the Spectrum was sold out most night because we had recently gone to a Stanley Cup Finals maybe?
I have no idea what you think that proves?
Also, from 89-94 the Flyers finished 5th and 6th off and on in the Wales Conference. Like I said earlier 4-5 years of losing seasons before you actually become a legitimate contender
And that includes gutting the franchise for Eric Lindros. So its 4-5 years if you make a historically bad trade.
Of course fans were showing up in 1989, they had 2 Stanley Cup appearances in the last 3 years. Regardless of the bad team on the ice, Stanley Cup appearances were fresh in the minds of those watching those bad teams. I’d be curious to see the attendances for the Flyers in 91-92, and 92-93 to see if they were still selling out the Spectrum. I’m not concerned with the first year of rebuilding, I’m concerned with the 3rd and 4th, where losing has been happening for the previous 3 years
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
They were. That’s the point.
The reason I didn’t extend my earlier post beyond 1991 is that Lindros arrived in 1992.
So I sad 4-5 years, you said 2 years at the most. Wouldn’t 3 be in the middle for a team rebuilding?
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn’t give you percent capacity, just the average attendance per game.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
So these were the five years they missed the playoffs, and average attendance per night:
1988-89 17405
1989-90 17407
1990-91 17342
1991-92 17140
1992-93 17281
1993-94 17231
1992-93 was Lindros’ rookie season.
The fourth consecutive non-playoff year was the worst attendance. It was a dropoff of 255 fans per game.
I think that proves that fans didn’t go away.
They went to the Conference Finals in 1988-89. They missed the playoffs from 1990 to 1994.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
To be fair, the Flyers have never actually had bad attendance other than the very first years as an expansion team. Since then, if I remember the numbers correctly, we’ve never averaged less than 17,000 a night in the Spectrum, or less than 19,000 in Wach.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I found the numbers, I was a little off. Post 1972, we dipped below 17K 3 times from 82-85, but still never went below 16,500.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting…worst attendance numbers in 12 years…even the lost season of a few years ago was better than this year. I wonder how much everyone economic situation plays into that.
Probably quite a bit. Hockey games are more expensive than your average baseball game. I’m going this Friday for Valentine’s Day and it’s costing the hubby a small fortune. He doesn’t even like hockey!
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Almost everyone I know can’t afford to go. All the full season ticket holders at my job and my friends jobs are offering more games than usual to coworkers to help cover costs… The guy I got tickets for the Caps game in December usually offered up 5 or 6 games, and this year he offered up like, 20.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
From what I can gather trying to look up the unemployment rate…. The lost season was 2006-07, the Philadelphia unemployment rate in Nov 2006 was 5.9%. November of this year was 10.6%. I think that’s probably a factor.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
pinning your teams success on the hopes of draft picks is a horrible way to run a team because it has been proven that doesn’t always work WSH, PITT and CHI sucked for more like 10 years to turn things around getting top 5 pick after top 5 pick and only until they got lucky and Hall of Fame talent came along were they able to turn it around
The Caps and Blackhawks each had 3 top 5 picks in the last 10 years. The Pen’s however had 5. Building around top picks does work if you surround them with other talent and role players. The draft is the exact spot you are supposed to start building your team. Draft a stud and build around him/them. They are good and cheap for the first few years of their career. Allows you to sign other vet’s to play around them.
(Un)Phortunate Phillies
If you went back time and prevented and somehow prevented that injury to Myers, there would have been no Lee, and without Lee probably not a second WS appearance which had we not gone, the buzz around the Phillies dies down and we are no longer as attractive to Halladay.
I think its far more likely that they would’ve still traded for Lee, but not signed Pedro.
Even without Myers’ injury, they had a pretty big hole in the rotation.
Not their MO. until lately. It was the same rotation that won them the WS plus JA Happ who had a great season but will regress this year. Lee was an alternate to Halladay….Beside we already have a 6’3, 180lbs lanky left hander with a deceptive delivery and a great-change-up. Basically Hamels is a cutter and a quality curve curve ball away from being Lee.
Just checking but were still in the playoff hunt, i know it seems farfetched but thats why they play the games, just make the playoffs and it a new season. I love the flyers more than anything and would love to see a cup, am i saying that its this year probably not, but once again thats why they play the games anything can happen. Great post by mikefive
Unfortunately you could have written this every year for the last 25. That is what I am tired of, being pessimistically correct about the team, its personnel and management. I really want someone to run this organization that in fact really does know more than me, not prove me right year after year.
we were picked to win the cup this year but many sources so you are MarioD are the two brightest guys one the planet and rest of the hockey world or complete idiots or you are error on the side of negativity take the pessimistic point of view hate on everything that is done and when we don’t win you say I told you so and if we do win nobody cares that you guys were wrong all year long because winning cures all
we were picked to win the cup this year but many sources so you are MarioD are the two brightest guys one the planet and rest of the hockey world or complete idiots or you are error on the side of negativity take the pessimistic point of view hate on everything that is done and when we don’t win you say I told you so and if we do win nobody cares that you guys were wrong all year long because winning cures all
1 post.
84 words.
0 marks of punctuation.
Priceless.
I enjoyed this a lot Mike. Which reminds me: Winnable game tonight
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 12:41 PM EST reply actions
I will forever be a Flyers fan first and a hockey fan second. I mean, I watched that Penguins/Caps game on Sunday, and from an objective perspective it might have been the most exciting game of the season to watch- incredibly fast pace, lots of skill goals, superstars scoring, big come from behind win in OT, etc- but it didn’t even come close to comparing with the Flyers 1-0 loss to Edmonton for me. I was on the edge of my seat throughout that disappointing game, every play that was made dictating my temper. The Sunday game? Enh. I mean, lots of quality hockey, but I didn’t really care. I watched a fair amount of bowling during the 2nd and 3rd periods because that was more interesting to me. The point being, this team is incredibly frustrating, but I’ll still watch every game and I’ll still proudly sport my Flyers jerseys over the summer, and I’ll be once again glued to the TV next October, ready to point out every fault and be thoroughly pissed at this team again until they get it right (maybe 2020 is our year?)
"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."
I love the team, and by that I mean the history, the logo, the style(yes, love the goonish attitude that we get from the rest of the league, sorry). Im 20, I remember going to games since I was 5, I’ve spent so much money into this organization. I have jerseys, posters, bubbleheads, banners, sticks, etc….. I frickn’ love the team. But I’ve never hated a group of players more then I do with this current team.
The sad part is, three years ago, the players I hate now were the best part of the team. I couldn’t wait or Richie to be the Captain. I knew Carter and Hartnell and Danny and Gagne were all going to be super scorers. I knew Coburn was going to be a top defenseman in the league.
What happened? Don’t lie, we all had those assumptions the year we went to the ECF. It was exciting, we were making the best team in the NHL look like s**t the round before. The team had so much promise to it. All the pieces were alined. Its not the system, its not the talent level, its not the Homer made bad signings. WE SHOULD E BETER THEN AVERAGE.
Its the players, they don’t play with heart. I guess thats why I love the Carcillo’s, Powe’s, Asham’s, Bett’s, JVR’s, and Giroux’s. Because they show up game in and game out 100%. The best players on the team are the bottom line guys. That is not gonna win the cup.
I guess its because Im younger then some people on this site, Im used to the Flyers being in it every year. I noticed more times then not that we usually have players, talented or not, that play for the organization and fans(see 2004, best team in my lifetime(and yes, I cried like a baby when we lost to Tampa). I remember when the players went out of their way to meet fans. I saw Sami Kap and Gagne at a restaurant once when I was younger, was able to walk up to them, and both players signed the tee shirt I had on. I saw carter at the rookie practice this year, had HIS jersey on my, and when I asked for an auto, he walked away.
I will always root for the Flyers, no matter what. I will get mad, pissed, upset at them, but I can’t leave. But I have never hated players on a Flyers team more then I hate the ones right now.
"NO HONOR"
The nicest Flyers I ever met were Mike Bullard and Ron Hextall. Super cool dudes.
The mentality of players is changing nowadays. Gagne is old school and humble enough to be appreciative of his fans. Carter is of a different generation and a different mindset. It’s a shame, but I’m sure he isn’t the only guy on the team (or even in the league) like that.
I remember the Stanley Cup Finals against Detroit. I was working down the street from the Bellevue-Strattford at the time and the Red Wings were staying there. Before they got on the bus to go to the CoreStates Center (as it was called back then), they all came out and signed autographs for the fans. I even had a short chat with Kris Draper, who was also super nice.
I hope that mentality never dies among hockey players, and I hope that people who act like Carter did remain the exception.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Carter is of a different generation and a different mindset. It’s a shame, but I’m sure he isn’t the only guy on the team (or even in the league) like that.
Should read: Carter is of a different generation and a different mindset. It’s a shame, but I’m sure he isn’t the only guy in the league (or even on the team) like that.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Nicest Flyer I ever met was Shawn Antoski. Absolutely hilarious. Probably because he loved attention though.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, hockey players have a rep for being the most down to earth. I wouldn’t want that to change.
But one point I have is JVR and Giroux, two young guys, have money, etc. But they go out of there way to meet the fans. Thats what I mean by my whole rant above, all they care about is themselves, they just strike me a selfish players.
"NO HONOR"
I’ve met Gagne and he was quite nice to me, but I have to give my personal nicest Flyer award to Desjardins. Honorable mention to Hexy, but there’s a lot of them I haven’t met and can’t speak for. The one who was the meanest when I met him was LeClair, but it may have been a bad day for him, I can’t say for sure.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
LeClair was really nice to me when I meet him. haha I just found it weird that he was rude to someone, seemed so normal.
"NO HONOR"
I wasn’t harassing him or asking him for an autograph or anything, (it was at some event I can’t remember what) and he was very gruff and cranky and short with people, like I said, it totally could have been a bad day.
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
haha maybe. And I meet Desjardins in Disney when I was younger(It was during the Stanley Cup, I think a year the Avalanche won it.) My Uncle said he saw him getting a stroller for his kids, and had his last name on it. He walked by us when we were standing in line to enter one of the parks, and My uncle called him over lol. He was real nice about it and took a picture with me and my 3 Cousins(I was also like 12 at the time) But yeah it was a weird coincidence but really classy by Desjardins.
"NO HONOR"
Todd Fedoruk when I was in hockey camp. Missing teeth and all, instructing us kids on how to play hockey.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Was never wanting to play in the Pros. Valued my teeth too much :)
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t need to play in the NHL to lose your teeth…I’ve got 3 chicklet’s that are suspiciously whiter than my other teeth from playing high school and men’s league’s….
Regardless of Fedoruk, was never making the Pros. lol
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
I see what you did there.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
This is the nature of professional sports and entertainment in general. People are always coming up to you, wanting something, and it’s natural to be wary of them (especially 50-something men clamoring for an autograph). I’ve heard many a tale that our beloved Phillies team is loaded with douchebags, which is disheartening, but again, as Seinfeld says, we really are all just rooting for laundry.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Different culture
Baseball players are notoriously arrogant, especially compared to hockey players.
My father met Jimmy Rollins years ago. The company he worked for back then always went to the Phillies Luncheon at the start of every season. A different Phillie sat at every table, and J-Roll ended up sitting next to my father. This was J-Roll’s rookie campaign. My father told him that he was looking forward to seeing him play, as he paid attention to his minor-league career. He also told J-Roll that no one in Philly was really talking all that excitedly about him yet; they didn’t have any expectations.
J-Roll said, “Well, that’s just because I’m not a superstar yet.”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
J-Roll said, "Well, that’s just because I’m not a superstar yet."
But I can totally see him saying that with this face in mind:
That’s just JRoll though. Him and Howard are some cocky people – and I wouldn’t have them any other way. THey’re hysterical.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
nicest flyer...
although he may not always seem like it, the nicest flyer in my opinion is jeremy roenick. im 16 now and i remember it was the first flyers game my dad took me to, we were waiting for autographs after the game. there was a large group of people waiting, and most of the players wanted to get home, so they just flew by, but JR signed autographs for everyone, and just as it was about to be my turn, one fan made a hudge mark with permanent marker on his white convertable, he looked at the mark and told the fan it was no problem, and gave that fan an autograph.
by flyersfangiroux on Feb 13, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
This is completely not a knock but how old are you? I think guys see even a young man as not a normal situation for autographing. If that was your 10 year old kid I would give credit to him being aloof but the autograph thing is strange to me. Fans have ruined the relationship aspect with athletes not the other way around. They are guarded because for ever normal person just wanting a memory there are 35 friggin’ retarded idiots.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Im 20, the only Flyers younger them me that played Was Sbisa I think, unless someone else born after 1990 is on the team.
"NO HONOR"
But you are not a kid. Anyone over 15 is in some way a bit weird. That is just what I believe. Really I am not trying to be rude here.
by M from Pdaddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
A lot of the Flyers guys are younger, and it is awkward to be asked for autographs by people who in most cases are older than you…it is somewhat humbling but somewhat awkward. But like M from Pdaddy said…they are guarded because they have to do. People are just creepy.
People are creepy, but when you are a star athlete in a city that worships its hockey team, you still need to go out and meet the fans.
"NO HONOR"
Last season, I read a Pittsburgh blog that talked about Crosby and Malkin coming out after a game in the Bank Atlantic Center (Panthers) and instead of getting on their team bus, they came out to the gate and signed autographs, which is super cool, even if it’s the Penguins.
So this season, when I went to the Flyers game, I went after the game to the area where the team buses were. There were a couple other Flyer fans there as well. (probably 6 of us in total). Even though all the Flyers were standing outside the bus etc., none of them came over to the gate to sign anything. Hartnell did give us a wave, but that was about the extent of the Flyers acknowledgement.
Not saying they need to or have to, but it would have been awesome for my sons to have gotten some autographs and certainly the players had it in their power to do that. It’s not like there was a mob of people either.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 8, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
/bites tongue
The Penguins are really good in the fan relation department. Like, incredibly good.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 8, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
They are amazing actually. Didn’t they deliver pizza’s to the fans last year who were in line for tickets? Or something like that.
All in all, I think that is what frustrates me most about the Flyers. It isn’t just their on the ice results(though winning cures everything) its that this team, not all, but many of them, come off as though they don’t care. Or care as much as we as fans think they should. From a PR and fan relations stand point the Flyers aren’t that great. Not bad but not great.
Top that all off with a GM who looks incapable of getting us out of a situation he created.
Crosby wears lipstick.
That is all.
Those goddamn Maxime Talbot Car commercials. It’s reminscent of how JR used to be with the fans.
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Well, when you have to build up PR after the near loss of the team, you have to do this kind of stuff to gain ground in your community. Give them time: the Pens will turn in to pr**ks eventually, too. /just kidding //sort of
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
And maybe that is the case. And I agree with you to an extent. They may have had to do that a few years ago, when Mario took them over and he needed to rebuild the fan base. But now that they are the champs, and lost in the finals the year before, and are the darlings of the NHL. From a PR stand point, they don’t have to do anything. Their results speak for themselves. Going out and meeting the fans and the other stuff they do is icing on the cake.
you know Lemieux’s bid to buy the Pirates was turned dow. I guess he’s really bored and needed something that will require round the clock nursing.
yes, they are and I’ve heard more than one person tell me how great they are.
i mean, i bag on Crosby just like the next Flyer fan, but how great would it be for the captain of the team you love to come out and sign something for you at an away game.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Feb 8, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Meh, I don’t give a shit about that stuff. So long as they don’t blow off little wide-eyed kids, just win me some games.
But if you can’t do that, perhaps you should be a little more open in the fan relations department.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I love they Flyers
Always have always will.
I can love them and be pissed at them at the same time.
My emotion will never, and can never be apathetic.
The team is at a crossroads. They will either compete with the best, of become fodder for them for the foreseeable future.
Regardless of how thing turn out to be I will still endure all the sacrifices I must in my relationships and in life in order to watch the orange and black all season long.
If I do end up bitching about a player and or a situation, it is because I am powerless as a fan to make changes on the team I think I feel are necessary.
So I air them on this site
If I feel anger, I think this is the place to express it.
Not to troll, but but share it with others who might sympathize, or learn a different perspective.
If I feel elated about a flyers success I can come here and gloat without offending others for the exact same reason!
So I can share with other true fans who might feel as passionately about the orange and black as I do.
I do not feel good about the club right now, but I am grateful that I am not alone in my passion for the Orange and Black.
Sometimes I wonder if I am most pissed at myself than I am the team. Pissed at myself for buying into the same B.S that the Flyers and the Eagles shovel us every year. Just making the playoffs isn’t good enough anymore. And I think what makes this season especially hard to swallow is how high the expectations were coming into the year. It seemed like the Pronger deal was it…it was going to put us over the edge but it hasn’t. And now it seems like this team needs to totally change its culture more than just add a guy here or there for depth or to fix a hole. Worse off, they have no money to make moves and contracts that either no one wants or, guys who can’t be traded.
I started watching the Flers
in 1967(yes I’m a geezer). Never saw hockey before then. I’ve been a Flyers fan ever since. I get pissed and holler at my HDTV like most of you. But I know that “fan” is short for “fanatic”. Hockey is an emotional sport, and we fans are highly emotional. So let’s all take a step back (figuratively) and wait until the end of the year to make any declarations. Every team goes through scoring droughts, except for maybe the Caps this year. The regular season has one real objective: get to the playoffs. I am confident that the Flyers will make the playoffs, and I don’t know about any of you, but I’m betting that every team will want to avoid playing them. Now is not the time to bail…have a little faith.
by paolipress1 on Feb 8, 2010 1:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
and if we beat the Devils tonight everything is back to OK until we lost to MTL on Saturday and it all begins again
And the Habs on Friday too, but I think out of the bunch losing on Saturday is the worst since we go into the Olympic break on a bad note… Just what we need is two weeks of dwelling over a bad loss.
(As a side note, I didn’t think I would feel this way now, but I’m kinda glad I wasn’t able to get tickets to Saturday’s game back at the beginning of the season. I’d hate to have gone to all that trouble with the way this team is playing…)
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 8, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
I guess everyone else is as excited as me for Spring Training, evidence by the baseball discussion in a Flyers thread
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 1:52 PM EST reply actions
wow , this changed very fast..Flyers may be off the hook real soon. pitcher and catchers start soon.
It’s only natural to compare the two teams; because one has the things on it that we want for the other—namely superstars who consistently perform and a seeminly good GM who knows how to put together a major league roster.
Of course, no salary cap helps. I can imagine Ed would love nothing more than the removal of the cap in hockey, but then it would mean the dissolution of the rest of the league most likely.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Exactly why again, Can we not have the higher salary tems in hockey paying for the Tampa Bays of the world
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Feb 8, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
In keeping the trend of changing the subject. That pass that Manning threw into quadruple coverage last night could quite possibley be the best completion ive ever seen!
Agreed, but the pick was utter shite.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Also.....
Does anyone else miss the days when who the ref actually made a difference.. paul stewart was awesome, andy van helmond was a d-bag. and kerry fraser’s body and age actually matched his voice.
minority with a megaphone
MikeFive’s original point kind of got lost here okay this team has not live up to their expectations YES in years past we have had great regular seasons and those of the WIP negative mindset have many times said regular season doesn’t matter it is all about what you do in the playoffs and many times we got knocked out in the 1st round by a lower seeded team
now our regular season has been sub-par but we are still are most likely going to make the playoffs but now all of a sudden the regular season means so much more and how we have no shot in the playoffs based on a once upon a time meaningless regular season
either way I think a few negative over-reacting posters dominate all the discussion on this board, these individuals find a way to bring up their same issues after every lose and on every thread, Richard’s captaincy, trading Umberger, trading draft picks, trading Upshall, cap space, Emery, JVR, Randy Jones etc. etc.. it is the same thing and same thing over and over and over again in arguments that have no end focusing on the things that have happened in the past but it is clearly a loud minority of people. Polls have shown this the fan confidence rating was up to about 70% then there are 6 people below 20% who are some of the most active members
here is the link to that one http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/1/26/1270572/philadelphia-flyers-fan-confidence
also in a poll about what the Flyers should do at the deadline only 3% of the readers voted to start rebuilding, dump salary trade for picks etc..
here is the link to that one
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/1/20/1261600/playing-gm-part-iii-deadline
interesting fact after that great win in Calgary there were only 25 comments in the Re-Cap thread but after the loses in Edmonton and Minnesota there we well over 60 in each thread
I guess it is the nature of sports talk radio and sports blog anger and negativity generate the most activity but in reality the majority of people are not as down on this team as you would gather from the discussion it is just a loud minority of negative individuals who like to argue and spew their hatred all over the blogosphere
I don’t know what the any of you are talking about everything is peaches and cream. Yea Baby we are better than the Devils! Stanley Cup! Let’s Go Flyers!
/after taking his orange and black lithium pills/
Haha, if we make the playoffs, you might have to share those…
by DragonGirl0583 on Feb 9, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
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Atlantic Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
82 | 48 | 27 | 7 | 103 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
82 | 47 | 28 | 7 | 101 |
|
Philadelphia
|
82 | 41 | 35 | 6 | 88 |
|
New York Rangers
|
82 | 38 | 33 | 11 | 87 |
|
New York Islanders
|
82 | 34 | 37 | 11 | 79 |
(updated 4.12.2010 at 9:21 AM EDT)
Flyers Schedule
Next 5 Games
|
New Jersey
|
Tue 09/21 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Toronto
|
Thu 09/23 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Toronto
|
Fri 09/24 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Minnesota
|
Sat 09/25 | 8:00 PM EDT |
|
@
New Jersey
|
Tue 09/28 | 7:00 PM EDT |
Last 5 Games
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/09 | OT - L 3 - 4 |
|
@
Chicago
|
Sun 06/06 | L 4 - 7 |
|
Chicago
|
Fri 06/04 | W 5 - 3 |
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/02 | OT - W 4 - 3 |
|
@
Chicago
|
Mon 05/31 | L 1 - 2 |
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