Flyers embarrassed by Bruins (or did they embarrass themselves?), lose 5-1
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 11, 2010 11:52 PM EST
in 09-10 Game Recaps
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Because Ben, Travis, and I were at the game tonight, we're doing a recap by committee. As the first one home - but sick - I opted to simply answer the questions.
There will be more to come, whether it be later tonight or tomorrow.
Travis' take: I'm gonna leave this short and to the point, because there's really no sense in laying out how bad the defense was tonight. Or how inept the offense was in simply crossing the Bruins blue line. Or in.. ah, screw it. Ms. Benes, a little help please? What was your opinion on tonight's game?
Ben's take: Elaine speaks adequately and articulately on the matter, and I can't really top her way with words. But I will say that this was one of the worst games, quality wise, that I have ever seen in person. Not just for the Flyers, because the Bruins weren't really all that great either for most of it. I thought it was bizarre how twice a player whose team had the puck in the offensive zone initiated a fight, and I thought it was bizarre how sleep deprived that guy who does the TV timeout entertainment looked. Speaking of him and his wares, if you have any inclination to buy one of those "O'Van Riemsdyk" shirts, save your money. There are much better t-shirt options in the pipeline, I can assure you.
In happier news, I saw two Seidenberg Deutschland jerseys at the game tonight, which was fairly surreal. I also saw what appeared to be a Danny Syvret practice jersey, which somebody theoretically paid money for. Or they stole it out of his bag, one of the two.
Geoff continues below with the questions...
Questions with Answers:
- Will Leighton allow the typical one-weak-goal-per-game tonight? Well, there were certainly a few bad goals, and a few close calls, but I'm not sure if any were at the same level. That isn't to say he played well though, because he didn't.
- How will Boston come out? Do they look even more determined in the aftermath of losing Savard? The Bruins didn't have many shots in the first 10 minutes, but they quickly took over the game. Outside of about 2 minutes to start the third, the game was entirely Boston.
- Can the top line of Richards-Gagne-Carcillo keep up their hot play? They played well, but not good enough. Richards didn't do too much, Carcillo is probably going to be suspended, and Gagne had some really bad luck.
- Carter has nine goals in nine games. 10 in 10? Yes.
Like I said, this is short, but we're all tired and I'm sick. Ben and Travis probably aren't even home yet, so have at it in the comments.
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i’m mindful of falling into the trap of getting too high on wins and getting too low on losses, but this one was bad. is there a more worthless 4.2 m cap hit with a no-trade-clause than scott hartnell in the league?
He did a nice job of ending up on the 4th line by the 3rd period.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Hey, the less ice time he gets, the better he performs. Addition by subtraction thingy.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
No, but he canceled that out by being the reason why the Bruins scored the first goal.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
That was a system goal. Either Carter or Briere was responsible for covering Krajicek’s position. And Krajicek never should’ve been down that low in the zone.
K, but if you look at the play from that point on, Its Hartnell that turned it over, got it back, kicked it to two open Bruins, and then ran into Carter, preventing both players from recovering. Krajieck is responsible too, but the goal was mostly Hartnells fault.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Watch it again. Chronologically:
Hartnell passed to Briere, who was weak on the puck and had it taken away.
Then Hartnell pokes it away from the Bruin.
Then while Hartnell could control the puck and is chasing it, Carter runs into him, and I think high sticks Hartnell
Hartnell’s momentum is slowed and the Bruins get to the puck
Only two players on the ice did what they should’ve:
Kimmo is in position sitting back
Hartnell is chasing the puck, stripping Bruins, etc
Meanwhile…
Krajicek is doing nothing out of position
Either Carter or Briere blow their responsibility to cover Krajicek’s point
Briere is soft receiving Hartnell’s pass and takes himself out of the play due to his momentum
Carter rubs Hartnell out of the play
by our system, yes, he should be.
timmonen, coburn, etc, all end up beyond the goal line in the offensive zone in the flyers system. hell, timmonen was even dealing the puck from behind the net the game before last night.
but yes, the system is predicated on the forwards recognizing a defensemen playing up and covering.
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
Because he should bae able to skate faster than Hartnell’s pass, am I right?
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Hartnell had the puck behind the net. As Scotty skated up the boards, Krajicek inexplicably continued skating into the zone and skated past Hartnell, who still had the puck and behind the net. A forward would be out of position doing that, let alone a dman.
I am going to assume you are just unhappy with Hartnell’s overall play this season and I will agree. The salary is the problem that in reality he is a third line player on a good team and being paid as a top line player. But as for last night he was far from the issue and I thought he came out trying his ass off and like the rest of the team sagged into the malaise once it went down the toilet. Concentrate anger and blame for the underperforming team on the GM and the misaligned personnel that this team is comprised of.
I think I speak for all of us when I say:
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
awesome. haha.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
He was doing some post-whistle pushing and shoving with one of the Bruins and the linesman pushed him away. He was gesturing with his gloves off and pushed the linesman in the process. He was Angry Dan tonight.
But look at the bright side… Don’t think of it as a suspension for our beloved sparkplug. Think of it as more ice time for Ville Leino!
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
And is slowly proving that he has no business on one of the top two lines of this team. Especially if this team is really serious about being in the upper echelon of the league. I know the typical Flyers fans are so enamored of the hard working tough guys but face it people he is a mucker and grinder. This type of player being the focal point of this organization is one of the reasons why we have not won a cup in 35 years.
Amen. I just don’t have the creds. to drop bombs like that but it’s excuriatingly obvious and this is coming from someone who having moved back after 20 year hiatus that has really paid attention to the team as an adult (and hockey in general) for 2 years. 4-2 in Cups. I can’t keep recalling the two nights of banging pots and pans when I was 3 and 4 years old to make that more palatable. Shit the memories are vague enough as is.
If Carcillo gets suspended for that after so many other players get away with much more, i’ll be shocked. That being said, this is the NHL, were consistency is as common as a solar eclipse.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Updated with my thoughts. Or should I say, Elaine Benes’ thoughts.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
there he is! hey guys, we found him!
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 12, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
I’m honestly not in either camp when it comes to Leighton, but tonight was not his fault by any stretch of the imagination.
Broad Street Hockey - SB Nation's Philadelphia Flyers Blog. Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Travis Hughes on Mar 12, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
He didn’t make any big saves. The third goal was a rebound he coughed up.
The Flyers and Bruins had equal chances offensively. Rask made a pair of huge saves, Leighton did not. That was the difference.
Rask is the better goalie, we knew that.
We also know that the offense needs to put up more the one goal to compete since we decided to go with leighton. Case in point, the Asham chance, he put it right in Rask glove. Not taking anything away from Rask, but that was more Asham’s fault then anyone else’s.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Gags shot it right into Rask’s glove as well. It was that kind of night. Carter flubbed a shot (and thats being generous) from about 5 feet out. It was just a can’t-catch-friggin-break kind of night…for the offense at least. On the defensive side it was more like a i’m-going-to-skate-next-to-you-and-not-make-a-play-for-the-puck-or-take-the-body-oh-look-you-scored kind of night.
-KreiderDesigns
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 12, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
No Worries
Billy Jaffe called him the next Hasek………all is obviously well
Optimism?
Boosh looked good.
The mites on ice game was good and the ‘mite of the nite’ interview was a gem.
Lappy almost won a fight with a jersey pulled entirely over his head. (Btw where the hell were the linesmen there?!)
Maybe getting embarrassed by a team that could kick us out of playoff contention will light a fire under the Flyers?
Yeah I’m about out…usually this whole bright side thing is easier. Help?
-KreiderDesigns
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 12, 2010 12:28 AM EST reply actions
Amazing Mites game, so small but they could really skate and it was end to end. What did the first kid say? I couldn’t tell if he said I’m nervous or I’m done with this or something else?
haha, He said “I’m nervous.” Stood there for a second, and then just walked away. It was great.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 12, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know how anyone can say that this was anything other than a total team loss. They were beaten in every single aspect of the game tonight.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
by doubleh on Mar 12, 2010 12:39 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
At times like this I wish Lavy would channel Jim Mora a little more directly.
“Well, what happened was, that second period, we got our ass kicked. In the second period, we just got our ass totally kicked. We couldn’t do diddly poo offensively, we couldn’t create sustained offensive pressure, we couldn’t skate with the puck, we didn’t try to skate with the puck, we couldn’t complete a pass – we sucked. The second period, we sucked. We couldn’t stop the Bruins. Every time they got the puck, they went down and scored. We got our ass totally kicked in the second period – that’s what it boiled down to. It was a horseshit performance in the second period. Horseshit. I’m totally embarrassed and totally ashamed. Coaching did a horrible job. The players did a horrible job. We got our ass kicked in that second period. It sucked. It stunk.”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Mar 12, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wouldn’t that be awesome?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 12, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Went to the game, it was really disappointing. They played a team that played with more desperation and fire than them. It was a bad loss but I don’t think this is one of those losing streaks. They had a letdown after playing great for a stretch. I think this will wake them up a bit. Hopefully, Carcillo isn’t suspended because he really seems to keep the passion going when others are quitting. When Carter got hit, he flared up like a pack of hemorrhoids.
When things don’t go they’re way, they panic, light their own hair on fire (other than Pronger and Kimmo) and stop seeing the game, just react to the puck like moths to a light and play hard but desperate. Little kids in soccer game can do that . They supposed to be pro’s and pro’s shouldn’t panic. Not just in sports but life. This type of loss wouldn’t bother me if not for mid season crapping…every team has a bad evening. But we have about the odds of smelling our own farts while knee deep in elephant dung than winning on Sat. so a W tonight would have balanced the books for Sat.
They supposed to be pro’s and pro’s shouldn’t panic. Not just in sports but life.
If the Flyers were all robots, then I’d agree with you. Unfortunately, they are human beings.
Timonen had an uncharacteristically bad game tonight.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
i can think of one instance where he couldn’t post up mark recchi in the corner, and ended up chasing him.
other than that, kimmo was kimmo.
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
MarioD
By average… you could be your normal old negative, pessimistic self every day. And by average, almost 97% of the time you’d be right (strictly by average of us winning the cup). If your trying to prove someone wrong by saying we wont win the cup every year, then just stop. We get it. When we win, your right, wen we lose your right. Enough. Just root for the Flyers if you like them. Don’t if you dont. I’ll be there Saturday afternoon win or lose, and I’ll bleed orange and black. If your THAT upset with management then don’t root for the team. We lost tonight. We sucked. I get it. Hopefully we wont next game.
GO FLYERS.
IF ANYONE IS LOOKING FOR POSITIVES IN THIS GAME, ITS THAT WE PLAY IN LESS THAT 36 HOURS!!!!
Can anything be better than that for a FAN? Because thats what we all are. Fans. We get to watch our team play like 20 times this month! Seriously. After that amazing Olympic break we get like 5803839 games in 30 days? Then the playoffs! I’m gonna root my ass off weather we win or not. Have some fun man, say something positive.
PS I love Scotty Hartnell as a “figure”. He’s got the hair, he has fun, he’s a goofball and a fan favorite, but he needs to step it up. I’m all for a benching to get him right. If my memory serves me correctly he was benched for a third period last year then he stepped his game up. Coach has to bench him one game. Seriously. One game. Then he gets his head on strait.
GO FLYERS
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 12, 2010 2:43 AM EST reply actions
Agreed
I definitely agree with you here. I wouldn’t just say its mariod, the whole site is all doom and gloom. If they win its considered an ugly win, if they lose they played absolutely horrible. They are not going to dominate a full game against anyone, the teams are too close in talent for anyone to do this. I just enjoy watching hockey, I enjoy watching the Flyers play every other day. It does get a little frustrating when they lose but I’m not going to analyze every little thing that happened. I’m not going to take a snapshot of a play and try to tell everyone that an NHL defenseman who was told to play a certain system by his coach is wrong. Shit happens. I don’t think they are going to win the Stanley Cup but I can tell you I am going to watch until their last game and enjoy the fact that I am watching hockey and the team I root for.
Normally I would agree with you
And I try to stay positive myself, but that game last night was just awful. It’s one thing to get beaten in a close game—or just be overmatched—but the Flyers were neither overmatched (they are the better team talentwise and in the standings) and still were pummeled. They didn’t show up. They got beaten in every single facet of game play. I find that pretty unacceptable as a fan. I need to have at least one bright spot to hang my fan hat on and I can’t find a single one from last night’s game. I’m giving everyone on here a Negadelphia pass this morning.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
It's not just today
It’s like this after any loss no matter the game. I know this is a day after a bad game but I’m not talking about just today. I know I’m not a regular commenter on this site but I do like reading the site. It seems like everyone here wants the team to play perfect but then at the same time say they know they aren’t good enough to play perfect. Everybody gets upset over the same things over and over but then say they knew it was going to happen. It’s just been hard to read anything on this site recently.
welcome to arguing with HockeyOutsiders and MarioD I am surprised it took this long the hear about Vokoun vs. Leighton and the cap no draft and the Pronger trade and Danny’s contract etc . etc.. and all the same stuff over and over again
the truly hysterical thing is that on most days, I disagree with everything Mario says.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, I want to join in the Flyers negativity today. That was the worst game I’ve ever fast forwarded through since(i had it on dvr and once it was 4-1, i FF through the rest)…oh, since I watched one live last week. As I said in my blog, this team is horribly inconsistent. WTF gives? As a fan, I wonder what team is going to show up from game to game. I’m sure they’ll play fine Saturday (narrowly losing because Chicago usually takes care of teams they should beat), then we’ll probably look like complete crap on Sunday in a game we should win.
I know it’s a ridiculously small sample size, but I like these numbers(since the trade deadline):
Micheal Leighton
GAA : 4.18
SV%: .897
Record: 2-2-1
Tomas Vokoun
GAA: 2.47
SV% : .900
Record: 3-1
Jeff Carter literally needs to score 3 goals a game (vs. the 1 he is scoring) to make up for the deficiency in net right now. (Yes, I realize the defense sucked balls last night)
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:13 AM EST reply actions
I will be honest with you, I have been skeptical of Leighton from the jump, I also am not a big fan of Jeff Carter, but I do realize what he brings to the team and I would rather have Carter for the next few years over Vokoun, simply as that. No one in the world thinks Leighton is a better goalie than Vokoun, no one ever has.
But the real big issue to me has been that this team can not improve itself. They just can’t. Not the way they are constructed. You can’t trade for a stud without giving up a stub because we have no draft picks and no high prospects to trade instead.
This team will continue to be mediocre until they can free up enough cap space to try and fix their holes, or they blow it up, save for a few guys and start over. It’s as painfully simple as that. Pronger was supposed to be the piece that got us over the hump and the 6’5 telephone poll is clearly not that missing piece. Unless this team gets to the finals this year, or is a top 3 seed in the East next year, then Homer would be smart to try and pawn Pronger off onto some contending team next year at the deadline for something, anything and be happy. Now I am not saying that Pronger is the issue, or reason why this team is mediocre, he isn’t but his contract is as detrimental to trying to improve as Briere’s is. And until they purge themselves of those contracts they will be stuck doing this dance over and over again.
I agree and disagree with you. Management’s mantra has been to “win now” at all costs, which is why they traded away the future for Pronger. However, when they had to make a hard decision like trade Jeff Carter to fill the hole that they have the biggest need for, they balked.
Look, I like Jeff Carter as much as the next guy, but let’s face it, at some point soon (ie. after next season, I think) the guy becomes a RFA and if he’s scoring 40 goals the next 2 years, he’s going to require a sizeable raise. Not saying they won’t have the money then to sign him, but if you’re going to go all in, isn’t it better to do it with 2 A’s (Pronger/Vokoun) then A – 2 (Pronger/Leighton). Maybe I’m missing something.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
you missing the fact that 40 goal scorers are more valuable than Goaltenders, nobody in the league is going to trade a 40 goal score for Vokoun, Carter is 8th in the league in goal scoring here is the top 10 would any of them get traded for Vokoun straight up nope they won’t and the all make more money because they are more valuable.
1) Ovechkin
2) Crosby
3) Stamkos
4) Marleau
5) Heatley
6) Gaborik
7) Kovalchuk
8) Kopitar
9) Semin
10) Parise
keep in mind only Kopitar, Crosby, Stamkos and Ovechkin are younger than Carter
1)
Carter is 8th in the league in goal scoring here is the top 10…
1) Ovechkin
2) Crosby
3) Stamkos
4) Marleau
5) Heatley
6) Gaborik
7) Kovalchuk
8) Kopitar
9) Semin
10) Parise
When did Carter change his name to “Kopitar” ??
2) Jeff Carter is “more valuable” than Vokoun. Then you listed 10 other players play as well as Carter. Meanwhile, Vokoun is the best player at his position over the last three seasons. Do you understand what the word “value” means?
oh well, done, this is a good argument too.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
I left Carter off the list due to redundancy you can figure it though or do I need to explain every little thing for you.
Here is a simple question for you which you won’t answer. Would trade any players I list for Vokoun straight up if we had that player instead of Carter on this team?
I left Carter off the list due to redundancy you can figure it though or do I need to explain every little thing for you.
You could be accurate…
does that mean that Parise is really 11th in the league in scoring?? I still don’t even understand what you did. You said “this is the top 10” except it isn’t really the top 10 ??
3 of those guys have switched teams already (this season even). Marleau has been on the block forever.
Outside of Crosby and AO, I’d say none of those guys is as valuable to their team as consistent solid goaltending.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
when washington gets bounced from the playoffs because Theodore is pretty crappy, AO will probably agree with you!
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
And then you would never work in the NHL again.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
you mean when he “sold” Wayne? There is a difference.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
so for the record MarioD as GM would trade Ovechkin for Vokoun now you are just being silly and arguing for the sake of arguing because you are definitely the only person in the planet that would make that trade
yes, you are right. In a complete vacuum, with no other circumstances, Carter is worth 2-vokoun’s. I will not argue that.
However, what you have is a team that could certainly contend for the cup this year. They have a great defense (arguably), they have a pretty good offense, but they have a big gaping hole in net. On top of this, to assemble this team, they have pretty much mortgaged the future, because if this team doesn’t win in 1-2 years, it’s going to be screwed. So now I ask you, what is vokoun really worth to this team?
In context, let’s say you are in a foreign country and you are starving. You have $50 in your pocket and unless you eat soon, you’re going to die. They want $20 for a big peanut butter & jelly sandwich and that’s all they have. Would you rather starve because $20 is way to much to pay for a PB&J sandwich or would you pay the price?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
they have a good offense take away Carter and I don’t think you can they have a good offensive team any more last season Carter accounted for over 17% of the teams goal scoring we would go from 260 to 213 in terms of goals scored, moving from 5th to 22nd. This season he accounts for a similar percentage around 16% losing his 32 goals would move us from 196-32 + 164 GF putting us just below Calgary at 27th in the league. We would basically being scoring the same number of goals as Florida with Florida’s goalie and you expect us to have a much better record that Florida being a contender when Florida is not even in the playoff picture. I just don’t get it.
geez, you’re now arguing that the flyers get zero production to fill that void? So hypothetically moving Giroux up to play on the 2nd line isn’t going to produce more points than he already has? Maybe putting Giroux on the first line and putting JVR on the second line and giving them more ice time, won’t see any + affects on their point totals? I mean, that seems to be what you’re saying.
In a hypothetical world giving our goalie stats, we literally have to score 5 goals a game to win. Replace a goalie that gives up 3-4 goals a game with one that gives up 2-3 goals a game, you don’t need as much offensive production right? I don’t see why this is such a big stretch to figure out.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
At least now we know why Florida was so hesitant to trade Vokoun.
They’d apparently have to finish the season with an empty net.
they’d have had to start Clemmer which is likely close to the same thing.
Speaking of Mr. Clemmensen, waiver wire goalie, bounced around, had one awesome stretch of a season….got a nice raise and is firmly cemented on the bench because he pretty much sucks….hmmm, this is sounding really familiar.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
You missed the joke, it’s okay.
Since no one would replace Carter on the Flyers’ roster, I can only conclude that Florida would lose Vokoun’s 34 saves a night.
no, i got the joke. I just liked the comparison of Clemmer to Leighton. Sorry, probably a bad segue.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
probably never, but why let the facts stand in the way of an almost comparable situation?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Leino would replace Carter in the lineup however I doubt Leino could replace Carter on the score sheet and that is the whole point jesus you are the absolute worse person to argue with you just skirt the issue and harp stuff that has nothing to do with argument. Do you think trading Carter for a goalie will have no impact on the team goal production because if you do you see a doctor.
my god, that’s not the argument. Let’s do a simple math equation.
Flyers offense(current need to win) 5 goals.
Goalie give up 4 goals. Net +1 W
Flyers offense (current needs to win with Vokoun) 3 goals
Goalie give up 2 goals. Net +1 W
So to get a good goalie we can hypothetically sacrifice 2 goals of production.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Where are you getting 5 goals needed to win? I just don’t know where that is coming from right now, can you clarify?
do you want to argue stats or hypotheticals? you guys haven’t answered yet.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Your whole post is based on hypotheticals but I just asked you a question about facts so we can start there
okay, here are the facts.
Over the course of his career Leighton has been a mediocre to awful goalie. Jonathan Willis posted an article a few days ago that basically pointed out that he’s basically been playing over his head with the Flyers and that he most likely in all events will soon revert back to his awful form (which I might argue has shown since the trade deadline)
Secondly, it has been well documented that Holmgren asked about Vokoun (as Mario pointed out above), but the price was Carter.
Based on these two facts, what can we logically conclude?
1) that the hole in the offense created by the Carter trade would not have led to more wins because even though we would let in less goals we wouldn’t have the offense to win even then
or
2) the consistency in net coupled with the fact that we wouldn’t need so many goals to win, would have more than offset the fact that we lost Carter and we would have been in a better position to succeed (ie. win the SC)
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
It has been well documented by people suggesting rumors that they have heard, we were not in on the conversations so that is not a fact it is a rumor, also you are saying someone writing an article based on prior stats is a fact that something will happen in the future. I understand now.
So where did you get the 5 goals a game stat
Leighton’s GAA over the last 5 games since the deadline is well over 4, so we would hypothetically need 5 goals a game to be assured of a win.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Since we are going with stats now and not hypotheticals the flyers’ team gaa for the year is 2.7, so I just dont get the extremely small sample size you gave. I must admit though this is the first real discussion ive been in on this site and im not usually a dick but when you start to become condescending i have no problem throwing it right back at you
to be fair you are arguing that the flyers could of gotten vokoun and don’t know anything other than a rumor. So really your whole argument is based on what in fact you want rather than what was possible. Second, where are you going to get an additional 58 points from, no matter what you ASSUME giroux and jvr do you are still going to lose points in that trade. Also, you are saying our goalie gives up that many goals a game but it has been argued on here before that gaa is a team stat and despite leighton’s 3-4 goals allowed he is 8th in save % to be fair
actually my argument is that the Flyers pretty much mailed in the season when they did nothing to upgrade the goaltending position at the deadline.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
and I will say I am fine with that because I don’t think Vokoun is a guarantee to win the cup and I will much rather have Carter on next year’s team when you can fix the goaltending situation during the offseason
fix it how exactly?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
maybe we can get Maxime Ouellet back.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
you can do lots of things in the offseason FA goalies or a trade that won’t cost you Carter the cap space is better you can assign Hartnell to the Phantoms if you can’t move him you have a lot more options
Wait wait wait.
So you can’t trade a 40 goal scorer for a goaltender.
But you can waive a 30 goal scorer for a goaltender.
Wow.
HAHAHAHAHA.
That’s solid gold.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
And Carter only has 32.
Yet somehow you called him a 40 goal scorer in this post just two hours ago. Then said he was 8th on a list, then on that list placed someone else in 8th place and Carter not in the top 10.
We could also waive Gagne, because, you know, he’s only got 12 goals too.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
by all means, i’m waiting anxiously for your list of offseason FA goalies that we might be able to sign or what your trade prosposal’s that don’t involve Carter for a legitimate starting netminder are
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
here is a list from CSN Philly article
Marty Turco, Evgeni Nabokov, Vesa Toskala, Dan Ellis and Antero Niittymaki are some of the big-name goaltenders who will be on the market this summer.
Niittymaki’s a big-name goaltender? Did I pull a Rip van Winkle for the last ten years or something?
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Did you even read that list before you posted it?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
no wonder, nobody around philly knows what a quality goalie is, if Vesa Toskala is making lists as a “big-name” goalie
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Easiest things first: Michael Leighton is 31st in the league in save percentage among the leaders (minimum game requirements and such).
If you choose to ignore his Hurrican numbers, he would be 8th in the league in s% in those 23 games he played with the Flyers.
Second, there is no doubt that Florida and the Flyers talked about Vokoun, and Florida asked for Carter. Its been well documented all around the league.
I’m kind of shocked that MAF has the same save % as leighton though, I thought he was having a better year than this
I dont know what his contract is but he did a hell of a job in the playoffs last year and always kills us
I think Fleury is light year’s ahead of whatever we have in goal. Course, that is a whole other discussion.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think MAF is that great; whether or not he is better than Leighton is another story entirely. Yes, he stole a few games for the Pens last season, but Biron did for the Flyers in 2008, too. I really wish the Flyers had kept him.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
eh, not a huge Biron fan, but the play of Leighton lately has made me yearn for the days of yore.
The thing with MAF is that he doesn’t have to be great. In the playoffs, he just has to be solid and make the occassional spectacular save to keep his team in it. He’s usually up to the task. That’s all we really need too. A solid presence in net. I’m not asking for the guy to be Patrick Roy, I just want to have confidence that he’s going to make the saves he should and 1/2 of the saves he shouldn’t.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
you can’t just assume that he you can make up fully for the loss you don’t know how it will affect the lineup and trickle down to other players it is easier just to stick with the facts you are losing not only you highest goals scorer but also you highest point scorer, 26 assists as well, Danny might get checked tighter without Carter out there Hartnell is might go even further in the tank the team, Defense can be affected with the loss of the a good too way center, the PP will probably be affected as well along with team chemistry and so and so nobody can say for sure it is just easier to not argue the if’s and assumptions and stick with the statistics
which is why i posted the stats of the two goaltenders since the deadline. You guys really need to make up your minds. Do you want to argue stats or hypotheticals, because I can do both.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
A new branch of mathemathics is born
Do you want to argue stats or hypotheticals, because I can do both.
If i were you I’d call that
Hypostatheticalistics
Now I am not saying that Pronger is the issue, or reason why this team is mediocre, he isn’t but his contract is as detrimental to trying to improve as Briere’s is.
Pronger is one a Norris candidate this season.
His cap hit starting next season is $4.9m. As of right now, he’ll be the 18th highest cap hit amongst only d-men for the 2010-11 season; by the time the season rolls around in October, he’ll likely be outside the top 20 highest cap hit dmen despite being one of the top five at that position.
he was pretty un-Norris like on the 4th goal as Bergeron made him look like a big orange pylon, but I agree with you. Pronger is the last guy really to blame on this team. I know you hate Richards, but I can’t blame him either, for the most part he’s pulling his weight.
I want to see how this team does with a legitimate guy between the [expletive] pipes instead of some “let’s gamble and hope this works” bullsh!t. It’s so frusturating.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
I may start crying if that happens
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I look forward to them announcing the signings of Ray Emery and Michael Leighton.
Because if I learned anything from reading the comments on this website, its that the only true way to measure either of those guys is to ignore all of their bad games as well as the rest of their careers and focus on the 15 game stretches each guy had this season, then extrapolate that those 15 game samples are the true measure of their talents because they saw the light/matured/have something to prove/sit deeper in the crease/come out of the crease to challenge/never had a fair chance before.
I just don’t know how the poor writers next season will decide whether Ray Emery or Michael Leighton will get to take home the Vezina.
well at least all the media guys in the city will get to write stories about how inspirational our goaltending situation is. The flyers taking a guy that was exiled to Russia and another guy that was bouncing around on the waiver wire and turned them into starters.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t see that happening, especially considering Emery’s career is likely over. We’ll see what they do with Leighton.
Either way, I get the sense that they’re biding their time with their goaltending prospects. For the first time in a long time, they seem to have a number of good ones. I’m willing to wait another couple of years to have a goalie from within the system ready to take on the starter’s role.
If Leighton falters, look for the Flyers to pursue a goalie in the off-season.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Holmgren is working on signing Leighton right now. How many NHL contract goalies do you expect them to carry?
Two? Boucher is signed next year, and they are extending Leighton. Emery’s career is likely over.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I said they’ll do that if Leighton falters. If he returns to the form he’s displayed for most of his time with the Flyers, and if he manages to win a playoff series, then they’ll stick with him. If not, then I expect they’ll either trade him or Boucher for a draft pick and use the freed-up money to pursue a free agent or have as cap space for a trade.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
all 300K of it? (cap space that is) Sorry mike…haha.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Right now, Leighton is on the last year of a contract and the trade deadline already passed, so he’s not going to be traded.
If Holmgren signs an extension with Leighton’s agent who is currently in town negotiating that deal, no one is going to want to trade of a multi-year contract for a shitty goaltender.
Which means the Flyers go into next season with Leighton, Boucher, and would need to acquire someone else in the offseason who is actually capable of being a starter in the NHL.
Here is what I said, and what I am assuming:
If [Leighton] returns to the form he’s displayed for most of his time with the Flyers, and if he manages to win a playoff series, then they’ll stick with him. If not, then I expect they’ll either trade him or Boucher for a draft pick and use the freed-up money to pursue a free agent or have as cap space for a trade.
I’m well aware that the trade deadline has passed. I’m well aware that Leighton is only making so much right now. I am assuming that they will extend Leighton before the playoffs start. If that happens, he will get a raise starting next season, so if he were traded after being extended, whatever difference in salary would be taken off of next year’s roster.
If Leighton falters over the rest of this season/the playoffs, it will likely be after he has been extended. In the offseason you either trade him or Boucher and pursue someone else.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
In the offseason you either trade him or Boucher and pursue someone else.
And what I’m saying is, why the fuck would anyone trade for Michael Leighton and his long-term contract? Half the league has already given up on him once, why would they try again when they could just sign one of the many ufa goalies who will be on the market this summer?
I’m speaking hypothetically. They could trade Leighton but they’d more likely trade Boucher.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Again, why do you think there’s another team in the league with any interest in either of those players?
I have no idea. I think someone who wants a reliable backup would be happy to take Boucher.
I mean, the Flames aren’t going to re-sign Toskala, and they’re not going to try to get McElhinney back in the ranks. They got Boucher at the deadline a couple of years ago, so some of the players there are familiar with him. Maybe they’ll take him.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Okay, so there may be a small market for Boucher and the Flyers can trade him for like a 5th round pick to get him off the cap. And then they’re stuck with Michael Leighton as their backup goaltender.
How about keeping Boucher for what he’s good at (being the backup goaltender) and let Leighton go sign his AHL/IHL contract with some other team? Then sign any of the 15 goalies on the FA market who are better than Leighton.
the story doesn’t say Homer is working on extending Leighton it’s say Leighton agent is in town and assuming they will be discussion an extension but that doesn’t mean anything is being pursued but of course everything that is assumed must be true like Emery’s extension earlier in the season
but of course everything that is assumed must be true like Emery’s extension earlier in the season
I know, I’m such an asshole. How could anyone ever take these quotes Paul Holmgren, General Manger of the Philadelphia Flyers, and Peter Luukko, President of the Philadelphia Flyers, to mean that the Philadelphia Flyers would try to sign Ray Emery to an extension??
The Flyers are planning to talk to Ray Emery’s agent in March about a contract extension.
.
General manager Paul Holmgren told CSNPhilly.com that he would be amendable to discussing a contract extension in-season, rather than wait till the off-season.
…
"We’d probably start talking about it after the Olympics and once the trade deadline passes," said Flyer president Peter Luukko.
What wildly inaccurate assumptions to think the Flyers would try to sign Emery to a long term contract.
imagine if Emery had waited another month for his hip to fall off?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
the story doesn’t say Homer is working on extending Leighton it’s say Leighton agent is in town and assuming they will be discussion an extension
Also, since you’re apparently incapable of reading:
Michael Leighton’s agent, Mike Liut, has been in the Philadelphia area for several days and likely will talk to general manager Paul Holmgren about a contract extension for his client this week, a Flyers source confirmed to the Daily Times.
A Flyers source said Holmgren is going to negotiate with Leighton’s agent. Not sure what the
“assumption” is there, either.
As I said in my blog, this team is horribly inconsistent. WTF gives? As a fan, I wonder what team is going to show up from game to game.
They’re now at the point where I don’t even think they’re inconsistent any longer.
You KNOW they won’t show up for the first period. And then they’ll play really well for about 20 minutes sometime between late in the first and early in the third. And if they don’t score three goals in that stretch of time, they’ll lose.
yup, you’re right. They’ll hang on for the first period and hope they either are winning 1-0, it’s tied at 0 or losing 1-0. Then for a stretch of the second, they’ll play hard. You have to hope they aren’t down more than 2-0, when they turn it on or they don’t have a frigging chance.
Of course, they can’t go all out because every 2-1 or 3-1 ends up in the back of the net because they have employed a 300K pylon.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
they should just put that old dryer that’s in Sidney’s basement in net. That machine can at least stop some of Crosby’s shots.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Although, on second thought, that isn’t really fair either.
Unlike a trashcan, Leighton can move left to right. He just can’t cover anything in the top two feet of the net because he’s generally on the ground before a shot is taken and his glove hand would be more useful if he wore a second blocker.
He’s more like an equipment bag sitting on the goal line than a trashcan.
that’s not really fair either, because if you shot a puck hard at the middle of an equipment bag, it probably wouldn’t dribble out the other side and into the net.
he’s more like one of those small beach chairs. The legs aren’t long like regular lawn chairs, so they are low to the ground, but they still have a gaping hole in the middle under the chair.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
How about a Christmas tree lain on its side? Because even the beach chair wouldn’t cover post to post.
The Christmas tree would be hit by a puck and deaden it pretty perfectly so that it would up sitting somewhere within a foot of the crease to be scooped home.
with an angel or star on top?
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
It can an ornament only if that ornament doesn’t hug the post in order to ensure the possibility of banking shots in on the short side.
it’s probably going to be a star then. It’s got at least 5 sides to bank shots in off of. An angel would probably stop the puck in their garmets.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Who’s going to score for the flyers when they trade their leading goal scorer away and their biggest problems this year have been scoring? I like Vokoun also but I don’t understand the point of putting those stats up, do you expect Leighton to be better? No. We know Vokoun is better than Leighton.
1) I just like to put up stats to make my point, however ridiculous it might be
2) the Panthers seem to make it work, I’m not sure one of their guys is in the top 50 in points, maybe even not the top 100
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
They’re making it work being 10 points behind us and 8 points out of the playoffs, in a weaker division no less
and they have the best goalie in the league, allowing them to take off 2 periods and go have a beer.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
It may be allowing them to but they are still out of the playoffs. Yes, with the flyers defense and Vokoun starting they would be pretty awesome but you still have to score to win and they have a hard enough time doing that, maybe moving Giroux up helps him but then we only have two lines worth a shit for scoring and really the Giroux line now is playing pretty well so we have three lines that should be capable now
1) I just like to put up stats to make my point, however ridiculous it might be
Nerd! Get out of your mom’s basement!
she gave me a NTC, so I’m pretty comfortable here.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 12, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
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