Asham out vs. Chicago "I am playing like shit".
Tim Panotch via Twitter
4 months ago
chrislanci
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new lines
Carcillo-Richards-Gagne
Leino – Carter – JVR
Hartnell – Giroux – Briere
Lappy – Powe – Betts
basically what I gathered from other tweets about what was going on at practice today, thoughts and concerns..
Cause, you know, Asham has been superior to JVR too, and if it wasn’t for the PP, Giroux would be in the gutters with them. You don’t realize that the whole 3rd line is playing like shit.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Because Giroux is the only good player on that line.
In the last 10 games, Asham has 3 goals and 7pts. JVR has 4 goals and 6pts. But Asham does other things (hit, fight, play defense, etc).
I dont know the stats, but can you do a comparison of Giroux when he;s playing with JVR/Asham and Richie/Gagne, he seems to score all his goals away from his line mates. It just looks like that whole line is cold right now, but Giroux stats are better because he gets PP time.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Giroux is easily the most talented player on that line, but for gods sake Mario, that doesn’t mean the other guys are crap. JVR is exceeding my expectations just by being a consistent player in the NHL at this point – I figured him to be a Phantom this season. And Asham may not be the biggest goal scorer either, but he’s had some very nice assists lately and has played his role on that line – bruiser, checker, mucker – pretty darn well. Your stats work against you here; frankly, getting 7 points in 20 games from Asham is damn good! That’s gotta be comparable to what Hartnell’s gotten the team! And that projects over the whole season – he’s getting a point every third game, which would pretty much equal his highest career point total. I’m not disappointed – you can’t have top-shelf talent in every line, every position – so for what I was expecting he exceeds expectations.
by penguinsfan on Mar 14, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Why Asham? Hartnell is struggling more lately.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Totally hypothetical and based on Panotch’s tweet, but it sounds like Asham may have pulled himself
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Last 20 games
Hartnell – 1g, 10pts
Asham – 3g, 7pts
JVR – 4g, 6pts
And Hartnell plays the best defense of the three.
OK, just goes to show that perception isn’t everything. My bad for not looking at stats first. Maybe it’s all the falling down that colors my opinion…or the constant WIP shouting that eventually convinces even the most level-headed fan.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Last 20 games
JVR – 4 PIM, plus-2,
Hartnell – 44 PIM (3 fights), minus-1
Asham – 39 PIM (5 fights), plus-6
When you account for ice time, Hartnell is scoring at 1.94 points per 60, JVR at 1.53 per 60. Factor in Hartnell’s extra 90 seconds of PP time per game (four of Hartnell’s 10 points were scored on the PP), the fact that Hartnell has much better linemates, and what I listed above (penalty minutes and plus/minus), and your perception is a lot more accurate than you thought.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 12, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
5-on-4 stats:
Hartnell: 4.62 Pts/60
JVR: 4.01 Pts/60
Hartnell faces 0.175 worse competition with 0.572 better teammates on the power play.
5-on-5 stats:
Hartnell: 1.77 Pts/60
JVR: 2.20 Pts/60
Hartnell faces 0.028 stiffer competition with 0.093 better teammates 5-on-5.
Hartnell also playes at even-strength, he just doesn’t record points there.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 12, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm, thats interesting, because Hartnell still has 6 even strength points, compared to JVRs… 6 even strength points in the last 20 games. And Hartnell plays defense
It’s like they’re the same player, except Hartnell is way better.
This is the same shit we argued about before, which you refuse to acknowledge. JVR leads Hartnell in:
Rating, Corsi, GFON/60, GAON/60, SFON/60, SAON/60, Goals/60, Points/60, Penalties taken/60.
What does Hartnell lead in? Points, hits, blocked shots, and penalties drawn. But we’ve already established that JVR leads in Points/60, so that’s gone. And while Hartnell does draw twice as many penalties as JVR (1.4/60 to 0.7), he also takes FOUR times as many (1.7/60 to 0.4).
Yes, Hartnell is way better. At blocking shots and collecting hits. Everything else, JVR is way better.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 12, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Thats great. Continue to base your arguments on what JVR did in October, because that’s really important to who plays tomorrow afternoon.
JVR has played shit hockey since December. Hartnell has scored far more points however you want to look at it. For the entire season, Hartnell has played much better defense.
JVR:
First 20gp: 6g, 19 points
Second 20gp: 4g, 7 points
Last 23gp: 4g, 7 points.
But definitely keep him in the lineup, who else could produce two goals and five points in these last 16 games?
So at best, your arguing that a guy who is killing us for 4+mill (who hats back-checking so much he elbows the player each time out of frustration) is as good as a rookie.
by Prometheus74 on Mar 12, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
First off, how would you like to compare them? By salary or by experience? Because comparing salary to experience is just pointless.
Hartnell’s contract was signed as a pending UFA. JVR, on the other hand, has an entry level contract for which he had basically no leverage to sign. So looking at their cap hits is basically worthless.
As for experience, Hartnell does all of the things experienced players do (block shots, get in defensive position, etc) while JVR doesn’t do any of those things.
He is not nearly as defensive minded as you claim he is.
For every sreen cap example you find of him making a defensive play, I could screencap 20 examples he is dogging it to the bench or huffing it 1/2 assed backecking.
I do not have the time, not the skill to do so.
He is not scoring
He is not a grinding juggernut
Way to manny of his passes are not sharp and cause dangerous turnovers
(4+mil is not for taking dumb penalties)
He is not earning his salary plain and simple
If you want to say he is playing better than JVR, you could make the case.
I would say on most days unfortunately he is not.
The fact that JVR is a rookie and just adding lemon juice to the wound
I like Hartnell but his play is pissing me off.
Because of his salery and NTC we can not afford him to play like shit!!!
I like the guy, but I cant agree when someone defends him by saying others are screwing up as well or worse!
Hartnell needs to sit in the press box for a bit, grow up little more, and get ready to play his roll the Flyers are paying him to do.
by Prometheus74 on Mar 12, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
I would like Hartnell to stay here, and I would like to see him play the way he is capable of playing.
Especially as we got closer to the Olympic break, Hartnell really seemed to step it up. He’s doing some good things this year but we need him to be the hard-to-the-net guy who has pucks go in off his elbows like last year. That isn’t happening.
Hopefully next year he rebounds and gets back to his 25-goal-scoring ways while taking less penalties.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
JVR
JVR needs the ice time you don’t bench rookies unless they are really killing you, JVR is certainly not doing that but you can’t bench a rookie is hurts their confidence and development. Hartnell is under preforming you can’t deny that, he turns the puck over like crazy which is hurting the team JVR is still learning he needs all the ice time he can get. Unfortunately he seems to be more a play maker than a goal scorer and playing with Giroux another playmaker and Asham who is just a forechecker and nothing special.
I call bullshit again. Even the broadcast team was blasting Hartnell for cherry picking at the red line instead of helping out in the defensive zone. Stats don’t tell you everything. Besides, Hartnell has how many minor penalties???
by penguinsfan on Mar 14, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking about this last night, is it not worth stacking two lines instead of spreading them a bit thin. Every line atm has a marginal player on it that is kind of bringing the other two members down.
Gagne – Richards- Briere
JVR – Carter- Giroux
Hartnell – Powe – Carcillo
Lappy – Betts – Asham
I don’t know. I think we need to stop thinking about our team as having three scoring lines, only having two while running an agitator type line and a defensive line.
I’m probably wrong, but its fun to think of good hypothetical lines
"NZFlyerfan"
What about Carter at wing? Giroux feeding to Carter…. Then again moving a guy who is scoring goals at an obscene pace may not be for the best.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on Mar 13, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
Just shut the f up. “Its just another of the unaddressed problems on this team.” How sad is your life??? Giroux is a natural center – how is that such a horrible thing? He played moderately well on the wing earlier in the season when they tried that … and NO I don’t have any stats to prove/disprove/obfuscate so don’t ask. If the man’s a center, why is it a problem that he isn’t as effective as a winger? Now, if I misread and you meant the lack of scoring right wingers, that is a defensible argument – one that I still disagree with, but at least defensible. But seriously, your negativity is really goddamn annoying sometimes.
by penguinsfan on Mar 14, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
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