Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: News And Other Updates Leading Up To Pats-Giants

A Look at Scott Hartnell's Struggles

Everyone knows Scott Hartnell is struggling.  After watching Tuesday's game from the stands, it became even more clear that he knows he's struggling.  Add in the benching in Thursday's game, and it all adds up to a big slump.

The numbers tell a pretty bleak story:  1 goal in 20 games, 3 goals in 39 games, 0.18 goals per game (down from 0.37 last year), 1.95 PIMs per game, and a minus-2 - the first time he's been in the negative since the lockout.

With the way this season has progressed - the entire team struggling - it's important to put Hartnell's struggles in context.  The problem is that Hartnell has spent nearly 80% of his even-strength ice time with at least 2 of Jeff Carter, Danny Briere, Mike Richards, Simon Gagne, and Claude Giroux.  Because of this, his assists per game are at a career high.

So, where's the context?  For that, we turn to Gabriel Desjardins' BehindtheNet even-strength stats.  After the jump, check for Hartnell's rank among forwards with at least 40 games played in each category.

Star-divide

First, the common ones:

GP G A P P/M PIM Minors
Hartnell 65 12 25 37 -2 127 45
Forward Rank 5th 6th 4th 5th 11th 3rd 1st

The scariest part of that table is what isn't there.  Hartnell leads the team with 45 minor penalties.  Dan Carcillo is in second place with 25.   The only player in the NHL with more minors is Steve Downie, who has 50.  Outside of that, everything else seems to be in line, save the plus/minus numbers.  It's when you get deeper that things better reflect Hartnell's struggles.

First, we should look at who Hartnell is on the ice with.

Rating QualComp QualTeam Corsi QoC Corsi QoT
Hartnell -0.07 0.032 0.067 -0.502 3.246
Team Rank 9th 7th 3rd 11th 1st

Rating is Hartnell's plus/minus relative to the team.  Looking at both the standard and Corsi measurements for who's on the ice with Hartnell show essentially the same thing:  Hartnell is playing against average- to below-average competition with some of the best teammates.  Despite this, his Rating is near the bottom of the team.  That is depressing enough, but it gets worse.

G/60 A1/60 A2/60 P/60 GFON/60 GFOFF/60
Hartnell 0.31 0.92 0.54 1.77 2.54 2.36
Team Rank 11th 3rd 2nd 5th 6th 7th

Here is where we see just how important it is for Hartnell to be playing with top-notch linemates.  Over 82.5% of his even-strength points are coming from assists.  Obviously, some if not most of this could be the result of hard work and good passing.  The high primary assists would point to that.  But our eyes deceive us.  More likely is that Jeff Carter and Danny Briere are capitalizing on their chances, unlike Hartnell.  Taking a look at Carter's goals show that he has a propensity for putting the puck in the tiniest of spots, not that he's putting pucks into empty nets created by teammates' passing skills.

But all of that is stats vs. eyes argument that will never fully be settled.  So, like I've said before, it's important to use both.  And from my perspective, Hartnell's high assist rate is more the result of his teammates than his passing skills.

Taken Drawn Taken/60 Drawn/60 BS A BS F BA/60 BF/60
Hartnell 22 18 1.7 1.4 34 20 2.6 1.5
Team Rank 1st 3rd 1st 5th 4th 6th 6th 7th

Lastly, some good news-bad news.  Here's where most of the complaints regarding Hartnell come from.  As mentioned above, he takes a ton of penalties - second most minors in the league.  These numbers differ from the official NHL.com ones from above, but the point is still being made.  There are only three other Flyers that Desjardins has taking more penalties than they are drawing - Carter, Gagne, and Laperriere.  The three of them combined have 39 minors, according to NHL.com, still lower than Hartnell's 45. 

There isn't much to say about this other than the fact that it's unacceptable.  Any way you spin it, it's bad.

On the other side of the chart you see his blocked shots.  BS A stands for shots Hartnell has fired that have been blocked by the opposition, while BS F is those that he has blocked himself.  Again, these numbers differ from those at NHL.com, but the point is clear.  There is no problem with the blocked shots, as he's right around team-average. 

Conclusion

Everyone knows Scott Hartnell is struggling.  A lot of us have known it for quite some time.  Most other people are only beginning to notice, mostly due to the fact that Hartnell's assists have been steady all season.  But his struggles go far beyond not being able to put the puck in the net.

He's taking far too many penalties and his defensive game is nothing to write home about.  Add to that the fact that the Flyers are paying him $113,513.51 for every point he has scored so far this season ($350,000 for every goal, higher than the $282,608.70 for every Danny Briere Goal), and he has had a bad season.

None of this is to say that he's a bad player, of course.  But when you are struggling to put the puck in the net, you need to help your team out in other areas.  Hartnell (statistically) is doing that by getting assists, but he's not helping his team defensively - the team gives up more goals at 5-on-5 when he's on the ice than when he's off - nor is he staying out of the box.  The best solution would be for Hartnell to start scoring again, but the easiest would probably be for him to stop taking penalties and shore up his defensive game.

Comment 24 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

He must cut his hair, and then he will break his slump.

by Prometheus74 on Mar 12, 2010 7:30 PM EST reply actions  

my problem is he is not worth the money in the first place.

We would not give Knuble more money saying that he was too old which i don’t know i disagree with but he was a more solid goal scorer then Hartnell. Hartnell plays with fire and that is good but he has taken horrible penalties at horrible times in the game this year. He is not worth his cap hit that is for sure and I never thought he was worth that much money anyway. He is just another guy on this team that is way overpayed. Briere who I still do like also is overpayed. Maybe we do need to pay for a big time goalie someday but right now we are busy paying guys like Hartnell.

by whosyourjockey on Mar 13, 2010 8:03 AM EST up reply actions  

scotty's heart showed up today again but he just played and it showed

He looked like a new player, playing hard not taking stupid penalties but still menacing at the net. His passing has improved this year and that showed today. Lets see if he can keep it up it is only one game.

by whosyourjockey on Mar 13, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance

by psudrozz on Mar 13, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Bench him a few games for Leino? Maybe that will spark him, if nothing else we would get another look at the Carter-Briere-Leino combination.

by edbro on Mar 12, 2010 7:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

but he’s not helping his team defensively – the team gives up more goals at 5-on-5 when he’s on the ice than when he’s off

Except if you look at the numbers this isn’t actually an accurate conclusion.

GA On/60 – GA Off/60

Hartnell 2.37 – 2.13 = .24
Carter 2.51 – 2.14 = .37
Briere 2.69 – 2.22 = .47

All three players on that line are on ice for more goals against than when they are off ice. They’re all off ice for about the same number of goals. But Hartnell is on ice for many fewer goals against than either of the guys on his line.

He’s clearly the best defensive player on his line. He’s even better defensively than Carter, even though Carter has a higher QualTeam (.092 to .067) and Carter has a greater QualTeam/QualComp differential (.048 Carter compared to .035 Hartnell).

by MarioD on Mar 12, 2010 8:13 PM EST reply actions  

Mario

Cant you just agree that he needs to play better?

by orangeandblack20 on Mar 12, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

“Play Better”? How specific.

He’s in a goal scoring slump. But he’s playing very good defense and he’s ahead of last season’s career high assist pace. Subjectively, no one on the team gives more effort more consistently.

What he needs to do is continue doing what he’s been doing and goal scoring will come back.

by MarioD on Mar 12, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

what he’s been doing hasn’t been working all year, its just been making us short handed

by Carcillo's Mustache on Mar 12, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

When he’s been disciplined, he’s been solid. Not great, because of his scoring, but solid. He comes to play every night, unlike some others. If he started drawing more penalties, it would start to make up for things I think.

In general I think (I don’t have the numbers to be specific) he’s been better. When the team played well, he was playing hard and not drawing penalties. Don’t think that his scoring problems are making or breaking this team. There are enough others who have been slumping as well this year for him to shoulder all the blame.

"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27

by Mike B on D on Mar 12, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

He is not the Defensive powerhouse you claim he is at all.
I do not see Hartnell playing hard every game at all.
He has moments of greatness and determination that inspire the rest of the team and its awesome to see
But it is not even close to being a consistent theme this season

by Prometheus74 on Mar 12, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

“Subjectively, no one on the team gives more effort more consistently.”

“Effort”? how specific. Show me an “effort” metric.

Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance

by psudrozz on Mar 13, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think if you read that quote again it does begin with the words “Subjectively”.

"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27

by Mike B on D on Mar 13, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Mario,

Being the best defensive player on that line is like being the skinniest kid at fat camp.

Sincerely,
Dinky

by Dinky on Mar 13, 2010 4:00 AM EST up reply actions  

That’d make him chubby

by j reed on Mar 13, 2010 5:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Briere is not very good defensively, but Carter is supposed to be. In fact, what those numbers show is Carter is having a pretty crappy year defensively.

by MarioD on Mar 13, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

MarioD, I could be totally wrong but I don’t think those numbers exactly say that Hartnell is a better Defensive player than Jeff Carter. When Hartnell isn’t on the ice with Carter it has been with Richards and Richards we can all agree is a better defensive player than both. Additionally, centers have more of a role in the defensive scheme, so those numbers could just be saying that Richards is a better defensive player than Carter. Hartnell being on the ice for fewer goals per 60 with Richards than with Carter per 60. I don’t know how to explain Brieres numbers but I also don’t know who he is on the ice with when he isn’t on the ice with Carter. Or am I reading this stat wrong?

by eric88 on Mar 13, 2010 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Specifically, what those stats I presented say is: how many goals are scored while the player is on the ice/off the ice. Then you can extend to a conclusion which is a little less statistical to say that its representative of their defensive performance. But to go from “how many goals were scored” to “defensive performance” you lose accuracy.

Take, for instance, the overtime goal in Buffalo. Hartnell gets credited with a goal against on ice, but we know that goal was scored because Mike Richards stupidly skated out to center ice, and because Krajicek left his position because he didn’t expect Hartnell to get to the shooter, while Hartnell actually made a very strong defensive play covering both sides of the ice.

Now, logically, your post makes sense. Here’s the problem:
Hartnell line Combos
45% Hartnell, Carter, Briere
15% Hartnell, Richards, Giroux
5% Hartnell, Richards, Gagne
Everything else less than 5%

While everything you say is accurate and logically sound, Hartnell hasn’t spent so much time with Richards to explain such a large jump in numbers. Not to mention, without getting into this, that Gagne’s numbers are even worse than Briere’s

by MarioD on Mar 13, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Dude, even the broadcast team during the Blackhawks game was blasting Hartnell for defensive irresponsibility. Stats ain’t everything.

by penguinsfan on Mar 14, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we should just waive him.

Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com

by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 13, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Lets look at Hartnell’s penalties now, okay?

2008-09
Penalties Drawn: 16
Penalties Taken: 26
Ratio: .615

2009-10
Penalties Drawn: 18 (projected: 23)
Penalties Taken: 22 (projected: 28)
Ratio: .818

Penalty wise, he’s improved from last season. Now, one of the people who piss an moan about Scott Hartnell taking penalties, please explain why you have no problem with Jeff Carter?

2008-09
Penalties Drawn: 12
Penalties Taken: 22
Ratio: .545

2009-10
Penalties Drawn: 10 (projected: 12.6)
Penalties Taken: 18 (projected: 22.7)
Ratio: .555

Last year, also, Mike Knuble was worse than Hartnell (which is one of the reasons I was in favor of letting him go)

2008-09
Penalties Drawn: 12
Penalties Taken: 24
Ration: .5

He’s vastly improved on those numbers these season, I guess because he’s on a team that doesn’t play defense now?

However, the point is Hartnell is actually producing better penalty wise. His ratio of drawn/taken is up by a third and he’s on pace to take about the same number of penalties as he did last year. If you were expecting him to suddenly change his game and not take penalties in his 9th year in the league, that’s poor expectations, not a reflection of his performance.

by MarioD on Mar 13, 2010 10:51 AM EST reply actions  

Maybe I am missing something…Geoff’s post said Hartnell has taken 45 minors this year, and you have listed 22 penalties?

by EREX21 on Mar 13, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Because Geoff’s numbers used the inconsequential coincidental minors he took.

The numbers I posted are from Behind the Net, and relate only to non-coincidental penalties.

by MarioD on Mar 13, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

“Penalty wise, he’s improved from last season. Now, one of the people who piss an moan about Scott Hartnell taking penalties, please explain why you have no problem with Jeff Carter?”

really? like besides one of the two scoring goals? i didn’t piss and moan, but i thought the difference would be evident to anyone.

“producing better” in this case is equivalent to sucking, but sucking less. those are scientific terms.

Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance

by psudrozz on Mar 13, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

All the Philadelphia Flyers news and commentary that's fit to print.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Claude_doop_small
Max Talbot: Quietly Defying Your Expectations
Img_5355_2_2_small
Helping the Rangers fans: Final Planning Thread
Ugly_small
Newton, Nietzsche, and Narratives

Recent FanPosts

Claude_doop_small
Goalies and Back-to-Backs
Clarke-tee_small
I NEED ANOTHER OPEN ICE! NOW!
Small
Bobby Ryan to NY
Small
Should the Flyers think about trading for P.K.Subban?
Small
Suter vs. Carle
100_1036_small
Don't want a 2012 lockout
Ugly_small
Giroux's Goal Scoring Drought: What are the Odds?
Small
Relative Deployment Z-Score

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managing Editor

Screen_shot_2012-01-09_at_12 Travis Hughes

Associate Editors

67865_878600804923_14200876_46395212_2220_n_small Geoff Detweiler

Headshot2_film_grain_small Ben Rothenberg

Soccer_face_small Eric T.

Contributors

163830_478172269164_824914164_5517468_4313370_n_small ToddtheFox

Clarke-tee_small KreiderDesigns

D150_small Teemu H