Rangers' Dubinsky shows lack of respect by breaking cardinal fighting rule
by Travis Hughes on Mar 15, 2010 11:30 AM EDT
in Commentary
41 comments
There are a certain set of rules when hockey fights break out that are just not broken. The most obvious of those rules? Once you've beaten your opponent, you don't continue to throw punches while they're down and defenseless on the ice.
Brandon Dubinsky of the New York Rangers broke this cardinal rule on Sunday during his fight with Mike Richards.
Richards obviously loses the fight decisively, likely due to forgetting (or choosing not) to tie his jersey down. Dubinsky was able to get it up over Richards' head, coloring him defenseless to the fists flying towards his face. That's Richards' fault and only his fault, and for this reason only, Dubinsky should not have been inclined to stop the fight.
But there's a point in the fight where Richards goes to throw a punch in return and never makes it. Instead, he falls to his knees and the linesmen jump in to stop the proceedings. From this point, when Richards is down and the fight is over, Dubinsky chooses to let his fists fly toward the defenseless Richards.
Even if the Flyers captain wanted to return fire, ignoring the fact that his jersey was over his head, he was unable to because he was in the clutches of the officials. Yet there Dubinsky continued to pound away. One, two, three.
These two players do have a bit of a history, but that's really no excuse for Dubinsky's antics on Sunday. After all, Craig Rivet and Dan Carcillo had a history back on November 27 at the Wachovia Center. They fought twice in that game, and on the second go around, Carcillo beat Rivet pretty decisively. As he pounded Rivet into the ice, he laid up on one final punch as Rivet fell to the surface, opting not to throw it thanks to Rivet's vulnerable position.
But after the fight was over, Rivet rolled Carcillo over and threw a cheap shot at the Flyer who was lying on the ice before mouthing a few words and skating off. It's bush league stuff, and you can see it after the jump.
This stuff doesn't happen too often against the Flyers, but one thing you'll notice is that the Flyers are never, ever guilty of this crime. Not any time recently, at least. In fact, I'd urge anybody to go through the archives and find one fight this year where a Flyers player continued to throw punches at an opponent while that opponent was down.
I searched the full archive of the Flyers two most prolific fighters, Ian Laperriere and Carcillo, and one theme was evident throughout. That theme: a healthy dose of respect. Take a seat and watch a few videos, won't you?
Here's Ian Laperriere in the last game before the Olympic break, going toe-to-toe with Montreal's Ryan O'Byrne. O'Byrne slips a little bit toward the end of the fight, and Laperriere holds back his final punch to make sure that it's actually the end of the fight.
Remember Carcillo's fight with Shawn Thornton at the Winter Classic? In it, Carcillo showed off the same level of respect for his opponent. Instead, you can actually see Danny's hand cocked back and ready to pounce on Thornton when the Bruin falls to the ice. Carcillo slowly takes it away, showing his palms at one point to say 'I'm done.' It's respect.
Finally, in the mother of all fights where Carcillo really could've put a hurting on his opponent, we come full circle with the Rangers and the Marian Gaborik tilt. As Gaborik falls to the ice, Carcillo clearly and obviously pulls up in an attempt to not injure the Rangers star player. Respect.
Of course, it's easy to sit here and pick a few fights from the catalog and show off examples. I watched as many as I could by going to the two guys who fight the most for the Flyers; two guys that have completely different reputations as respectable players in the NHL. Because of that, I think it was a fair way of doing this.
In the end, though, the point remains the same. The fact of the matter is that Brandon Dubinsky lacked a modicum of respect for his opponent on Sunday. It's a basic violation of the rules in hockey fighting and it deserves a spotlight. Hopefully next time Richards and Dubinsky face off, the Ranger will have a little more dignity.
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I thought the whole game yesterday was bush league and you know what? It worked.
AS you alread stated in your game recap, the Rangers game plan was to dress a few tough guys, which we then responded with adding no talent to our roster.
Then we had Sean Avery doing what he does best and just being a complete chicken—— which by the way, worked awesomely.
The Dubinsky hands Richards his ass. It didn’t appear too many other Rangers players wanted to fight as I swear Carcillo asked pretty much everyone in his weight class to square off.
The problem for me is that Toronto tried to do this to us last Sunday and it didn’t work. Why now did the Flyers let this game get to them?
Everything that was wrong about this game is the Flyers fault.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
The Flyers are a worse hockey team with Asham and Cote in the lineup instead of Powe and Leino. Period. For a team that’s suppose to be desperate for points, there’s absolutely no way to justify not icing the best possible roster that you can.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on Mar 15, 2010 11:58 AM EDT reply actions
Asham’s not the problem. Look at goal differentials, etc
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 15, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree Asham’s not bad but Cote please why waste a space for a good skater.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Mar 15, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The better question we should ask ourselves (and one that was previously addressed by HockeyOutsiders) is why do we care what the Rangers think? Just because they’re loosely in a playoff race, we should pay more attention to them than we did the Leafs?
The problem with the Flyers off the bat is that they’re not calling teams what they are. The Rangers are a terrible team with an all star goalie and a top line forward. For these 2 reasons they are barely in a playoff race. Otherwise, this team is total garbage. Brandon Dubinsky is an inconsequential jagoff who will be playing golf in 2 months, so why make him anything more than that?
The Rangers are a joke. The Flyers chalked them up as more of a serious threat, and played the Rangers game. Nothing more, nothing less, the Flyers let the Rangers get under their skin. We weren’t outplayed or outclassed, we simply let the Trollers get to us and we lost. The good news is the rest of the NHL isn’t as dumb as us and will bury the Rangers with ease
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 15, 2010 12:18 PM EDT reply actions
exactly, why are we giving the Rangers more respect than they deserve? We should have dressed the best available lineup and worried about winning the game, then getting distracted by what might happen if some of their tough guys come after our guys.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
you have to be a little worried you don’t want to get run at and risk injury going into the playoffs difference between Toronto is that they would be target Carcillo who can stick up for himself etc.. since Carcillo fought Gaborik even though anyone with two eyes and a brain could see that Gaborik started that fight that puts targets guys like Gagne and Briere our smaller skilled guys who don’t fight or hit you need guys like that in the lineup just to say keep it clean that is hockey, I hope the Flyers can add a true heavyweight in the offseason I want a 6ft 4in 230-250lber not Cote who despite his toughness can’t really handle the bigger guys in the league if they do I also hope he can play a little a big smart body on the 4th or 3rd line would be nice over Asham and Powe who are just too small to intimidate anyone
Derek Boogard is a UFA this summer 6ft 8in 257lbs not many guys are going to mess with him through him in front of the net on the PP and see what happens probably nothing but I miss having guys like that
by all means, the answer is definitely Boogard, especially if we want one or two less wins a season
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The way we have goalies that guy would be used by the oppent as a screen.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Mar 15, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
nice read Travis I think the problem Richie had in the fight was that his tie down DID NOT come undone his arm slipped out of his sleeve but the jersey was still attached to tie down and that is why it got stuck over his head tough break but Dubinsky should not have thrown punches once the refs jump in that is the unwritten rule that being said I really like Dubinsky as a player I think he is a nice 3rd line guy I am little surprised by this
Hartnell should have Bradley’ed Avery if you square off act like you are going to fight and don’t drop you gloves to defend yourself then I say swing away a couple of broken noses or even better broken jaws will stop the pussy shit from happening in the NHL, the refs play into this by not calling Avery for an unsportmanlike there because that is clearly what that is bending the rules acting and playing games to get an unfair advantage, I find it totally different than what Carcillo did against Orr being that Carcillo never acted like he was going to fight he just stood there and let Orr throw punches without retaliating Orr never dropped his gloves because there wasn’t that agreement to fight nor did Carcillo act like we was going to fight and then walk away
Just a thought about goons – the day of the Goon is long and gone. Starting agree simply for his ability to drop the gloves is a mistake and a half. The Day of the Pest is here – he pumps his legs and flies across the ice, getting into people’s faces. He will often drop the gloves, but makes sure to take someone with him. The Prototype Goon of the NHL is Dan Carcillo. There is no need to go out and get more of him, one is enough
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 15, 2010 3:51 PM EDT reply actions
Hopefully next time Richards thinks better before he starts a fight with a scumbag who has nothing to lose like Dubinsky.
I agree completely, there are certain rules in sports, you never ever throw punches on a guy who is on the ice and defenseless like that. If you do it just makes you a total p*ssy. Which is exactly what Dubinsky is. He had already beaten Richie pretty easily, why he felt the need to go a step further is beyond me.
Definitely bush league to keep throwing punches when a guy is down, but I’m sad to say it looks like it’s more and more prevalent in today’s game. I don’t really see the cheap shot in the Rivet video, looks like some wrasslin’ while they are on the ice. And before we go and turn Carcillo into an angel, let’s remember how much “respect” he showed when he sucker punched Matt Bradley. That wasn’t exactly up to Code specifications. He was also the second guy to engage Gaborik, so while he gets points for not demolishing him while he’s down, I think it’s pretty lame when a guy like Carcillo goes after a guy like Gaborik in that manner. Betts already had an arm around Gaborik and everyone knew Gaborik wasn’t going in there to start throwing cheap shots. Looked like Carcillo just took any excuse he could to go after Gaborik. Obviously that’s his job, so you can’t fault him too much for it. I’m just saying you should pump the breaks on the “Carcillo is respectful” train.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 4:09 PM EDT reply actions
Bradley tried to pull an Avery he squared up looked like he wanted to go then hesitated trying to goat Carcillo into a penalty or something like that and he got dropped. That is exactly what Hartnell should have done to Avery if he is not going to fight or defend himself then enjoy my knuckle sandwich. I still don’t understand how you can get a lone Fighting Major it just doesn’t make sense especially when Bradley’s gloves did come off. If you think Carcillo went after Gaborik then you either blind or biased because Gaborik with the initiator in that fight. He threw the 1st punch and his gloves came off 1st and by the way he does have a size advantage on Carcillo so it is not like Brashear going after Briere or something like that.
Carcillo sucker punched Bradley. He grabbed him and swung before Bradley’s glove ever hit the ice. Bradley didn’t want to fight, and only dropped his gloves when Carcillo made it clear he wasn’t going to let him get away. Bradley was out before he even got his hands up to defend himself. Bradley never even got a real punch off and was completely jumped in that situation. That’s why he didn’t get a major.
Watch the video of the Gaborik fight again. Carcillo flies in from his point and grabs Gaborik from behind when Betts was already making sure Gaborik wasn’t going to do anything. Yeah, Gaborik pushes and gets feisty before the fight, but it’s pretty clear that Carcillo sought out Gaborik and not the other way around. Size may be more equal, but fighting experience and competence most certainly are not. And you know it.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Carcillo’s punch on Bradley was a sucker punch and it got suspended appropriately, so let’s all move on. That’s not the point of this post.
As for Carcillo vs. Gaborik, your point is laughable. Yes, Carcillo goes in and specifically seeks out Gaborik from the pile, but I’m sure he didn’t think “hey, this guy is going to fight me” . The point of hockey is always, to take the other guys best player off the ice and Carcillo does just that. It’s not his fault that Gabby decides to act tough and throw off his gloves. He then gets administered the beat down he deserved. Gaborik had no need to throw off his gloves. He could have just tussled with Carcillo and that would have been the end of it. Carcillo doesn’t have to just stand there and take punches because he’s the superior fighter to Gabby, which apparently everyone outside of Philly thinks he should have done. He beat Gaborik solidly and then stopped when the guy went down, which IS the point of this post.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Well put. We can’t forget that while Betts isn’t a superstar, he is very important to the Flyers and has had several shoulder problems this year. Carcillo could have been looking out for that too, especially considering the type of injury.
There is pushing and shoving just like any scrum after the whistle, but Gaborik drops the gloves first. The only thing that was missing was someone coming in off the bench to fight Gaborik’s fight for him, if you know what I mean.
"NZFlyerfan"
Betts already had an arm around Gaborik and everyone knew Gaborik wasn’t going in there to start throwing cheap shots. Looked like Carcillo just took any excuse he could to go after Gaborik. Obviously that’s his job, so you can’t fault him too much for it.
That was my point about that play. I don’t see how that’s not clear. Betts most certainly did already have a hold of Gaborik. And yeah, Gaborik didn’t need to fight, but watching Carcillo bee-line for the best player on the ice doesn’t exactly strike me as “respectful.” I felt the same way when Corey Perry jumped Brian Rafalski at the end of one of the Ducks/Wings playoff games last year. When tougher players go seek out softer skill guys for no reason, I just don’t like it.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh wait, there’s a “respect” code in hockey that deems the lesser skilled players can’t touch the superstars? I was not aware of this, please enlighten me. You should probably also enlighten the hundreds of youth hockey coaches as well, that preach that it’s always good when getting match penalties to take the opposing team’s best player off the ice. You say “no reason”, but there certainly is plenty of reason for Carcillo to do what he did.
Regardless of how you feel, Carcillo grabbed Gaborik, and instead of realizing that the guy across from him could beat his ass to a pulp, Gaborik decided to pretend he was tough and try to fight Carcillo. He got beat. End of story. And as Todd pointed out, props to Gaborik, at least he didn’t need someone to come in and fight his fight for him. Maybe this is the code of respect you are crying about. AO is higher in the “softer skill guys” category and he shouldn’t be fighting TB goons?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Aaaaaaaand there it is. It has to go back to AO. Jesus Christ. AO took his lid off, squared up and dropped the gloves. What more do you want from him? Bradley wasn’t going to let some cheap punk like Downie fight AO so he stepped in. I have no problem with what any of the 3 guys did. AO didn’t back down or turtle so get over it.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no problem with it either, someone on the Rangers should have jumped into the fracas with Gaborik as well. I’m just pointing out that saying tough guys shouldn’t take on softer skill guys is funny.
Hey, I’m not a Carcillo lover at all. In fact, I don’t like the guy much at all. I do however, appreciate how the guy plays though and the absence of ridiculous, boneheaded plays since the Bradley incident has been noticeable.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I remember watching that wondering why Dubinsky didn’t get involved but it looks like he may have been tied up until it was too late.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t hold it against Ovechkin in this case, he did everything he should have. But did Bradley do something against the “Code” by jumping in, or did he respect it by going out of his way to protect his captain against Downie.
Just trying to think about the “right” way all these interactions should have leads me to believe that there will never be satisfaction from all sides.
"NZFlyerfan"
well, there you’ve hit the nail on the head. Just as most Capitals fans will say that AO’s hit on Bradley was unfortunate and that AO didn’t intend to end Campbell’s season, most Blackhawks fans say it was extremely dirty and stupid.
The real answer is probably someplace in the middle.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Just trying to think about the "right" way all these interactions should have leads me to believe that there will never be satisfaction from all sides.
Truth.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, it didn’t even make sense but you got the gist.
Its very confusing. I try and see it from all sides but my orange and black tinted glasses will always win.
What I don’t get is that Carcillo got all those PIMs against Washington AND got suspended. In Ovechkin’s hit vs Campbell, people are saying a misconduct is all he should get. The explanations always seem too fuzzy for me.
"NZFlyerfan"
I can never figure out what to think in cases where a players intent is not clear.
Downie should get a huge suspension. His play was dirty and he had an intent to injure, no question.
Cooke, I cannot tell if he wanted to injure Savard or just lay an open ice hit on a guy with his head down, much like Richards did to Booth. I don’t see the forearm shot to the head everyone references.
Lastly, I can’t say with AO either. He doesn’t appear to maliciously try to slam Campbell into the boards. Campbell is semi-going down, AO pushes him, knocks him off balance and accelerates his crash into the boards.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 15, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Campbell also toe picks. Obviously that doesn’t absolve AO, but I think it’s important to keep in mind.
And I have no problem reading intent into Cooke’s hit. He’s thrown the same exact hit 2 other times in the last year. He makes his living playing physical hockey. He’s trained to aim for center mass. Then he has a vulnerable guy who isn’t looking (so he won’t dodge) and gets him square in the head with his shoulder? That’s intentional. These guys are too good at hitting to accidentally hit a guy square in the head. Especially a guy like Cooke with his long list of abominations. Plus, there is a rule on the books that bans intent to injure. The way it’s written is not limited to intent to injure + another PIM. It’s just intent to injure, period. And I also don’t see how roughing can’t be a catchall for that situation. But it’s over. NHL discipline blows goats. It won’t change. If I wasn’t hockey-obsessed I would most certainly be completely turned off to the NHL by the way these buffoons run it.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a joke. I’ve seriously almost quit the sport 100 times. I love it too much to walk away, but they powers-that-be are doing their best to ruin a good thing. People who hate hockey just point to these sorts of things and tell us why the sport isn’t respected.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
People that hate hockey just hate hockey and will take any excuse so I’m not sure how much to read into that. But I definitely think there is something there. A new or casual fan could definitely be turned off after not being able to figure out WTF the rules are. Maybe it’s just semantic.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
by Fehr and Balanced on Mar 15, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Carcillo got in there, grabbed Gaborik, and was holding him out of the fight. Gaborik took the first shot. It’s not possible to say for certain what Carcillo was thinking, but it either he was trying to draw Gaborik into suckerpunching him (unlikely, given Gaborik’s lack of fight history) or he was keeping Gaborik out of the scrum.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
comparing AO to Lindros again the won thing you can say about Lindros is that he didn’t need anyway to step in for him in brawl he would just take on the whole team by himself
It's okay
Dubinsky is gunna get it next time we play the Rangers. We all know teams hold personal grudges, and this one should be good. I hope they send Carcillo or someone like that after him, if Richards does not pursue another fight.
Rags are d bags. Did we expect anything less from them? The next game should be good with a fight breaking out no later than a minute in I’m guessing. Hopefully we won’t play down to them and their goon style of hockey again. The Flyers may have a reputation but we are worlds better than the Rags when we play our game, and with the playoff race still so tight they better step it up and stop playing like tards on ice. We need points because I do NOT want to face the Caps or the Pens in the first round.
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