Flyers' Jeff Carter Out 3 to 4 Weeks With A Broken Foot
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 1:39 PM EDT
in News
339 comments
Anthony SanFilippo reported, and the Flyers' official website confirms, that Jeff Carter will miss three-to-four weeks with a broken foot.
Honestly, this is just a shock right now. The impact this will have on the team will surely be steep, since Carter is the Flyers' leading goal scorer. Any talk of who - if anybody - will be recalled would be pure speculation.
But we've never been shy about starting rumors. If the team decides to recall somebody, it would logically be a center. (Yes, Giroux, Briere, or Powe can play center.) If that's the case, calling up Jared Ross would be the most likely scenario. But with Carter out a month, why not call up Jonathan Matsumoto?
There will be more to come, including an analysis of any potential move, but right now this news needs to process.
UPDATE 3:15 PM: Tim Panaccio is reporting that the bone Carter broke is a "non-weight-bearing bone".
While it hasn't completely sank in that the Flyers will be without, arguably, their best forward, it's time to look at him and any potential roster/line shakeups.
Jump for that.
First, the Flyers are likely losing Jeff Carter for the rest of the season.
Clearly, the Flyers are losing a lot. Carter leads the team in goals, points, and faceoff percentage. Simply put, the team cannot replace him. What the team will have to do, however, is adjust. One good thing about the Flyers depth at center is that when one goes down, another could easily shift over. The problem, though, is that the Flyers don't have one guy who does what Carter does.
To make up for Carter's goals, either Danny Briere or Claude Giroux could take more of a shoot-first attitude. Briere already takes a ton of shots (third most on the team), so maybe Giroux can shoot more. But even with this adjustment, neither Briere nor Giroux have Carter's shooting ability.
Moving to faceoffs, Carter not only led the team in percentage but he also led the team in faceoffs taken. Giroux has taken less than half as many draws as Carter, and he is only at 49.5% for the year. While that's not bad, the team is suddenly lacking their best faceoff man. While Briere is decent at faceoffs, the last time he had more than 200 draws in a year was 2007-2008, where he won 50.5% of his 1250 taken.
While the team will likely have to rely on Danny Briere and Claude Giroux to pick up Carter's production, it's quite difficult to pick just one guy who can step in. No matter who it is (Briere, Giroux, Richards, Gagne, van Riemsdyk, or someone else), someone on this team suddenly needs to start putting the puck in the net more.
Possible Line Juggling
More speculation: The Flyers could conceivably just insert Ville Leino in the lineup and start juggling the lines, without the need to call up a center. If that happens, the team suddenly lacks scoring depth. Here's one way the lines could look:
Gagne - Richards - Briere
Hartnell - Giroux - Leino
Carcillo - Betts - Laperriere
van Riemsdyk - Powe - Asham
But does that lineup scare anyone? No, no it doesn't. Obviously, the top two lines have some pretty interchangeable parts (swap Briere with anyone on the second line), but the team is suddenly weak offensively.
Because that team up there doesn't scare anyone, why not bring someone up and try something different?
Possible Roster Shuffling
Obviously, the Flyers love calling up guys with previous NHL experience. They also prefer the guys who can play a specific role with the big club. This narrows down the potential candidates, and let's just speculate: Jared Ross, Andreas Nodl, David Laliberte, Mika Pyorala, and (the guy who does not fit the description at all) Jonathan Matsumoto.
First, let's just say it is unlikely the Flyers call somebody up to play while keeping Ville Leino in the press box. Like we said, this is pure speculation. Let's start with Jared Ross. Calling up Ross allows for the team to add pivot with NHL experience, who is used to a lesser role. He fits the description.
The AHL does not keep faceoff stats, but in last year's playoffs, Ross won 50% of the 28 draws he took. He may not be as good as Jeff Carter, but only Danny Briere had a higher FO% during last year's loss to the Penguins. If nothing else, he wouldn't embarrass himself in the faceoff circle.
Assuming any call-up would keep Ville Leino off the ice (which is by no means a guarantee or desirable), it's likely that Richards, Giroux, Betts, and Ross are centering the lines. This would likely result in:
Gagne - Richards - Carcillo
Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
Powe - Betts - Laperriere
van Riemsdyk - Ross - Asham
That isn't really any better, but you could then easily scratch Powe, play Leino, and have Asham, Betts, Laperriere. In that case, I like that roster better, but then all you're doing is calling up Jared Ross to replace Darroll Powe, so is it really that much better? Eh, maybe slightly better faceoff percentage, but we can't really be sure. This one is a toss-up.
Somebody who doesn't fit the required description (previous NHL experience, ability to take on a lesser role) but should be given a look, is Jon Matsumoto. During the last radio show, we talked with Tim McManus who predicted Matsumoto to be fed up with the organization if he doesn't get a chance to play in the NHL soon. Since he'll be an RFA at season's end, now seems as good a time as any to give him his shot and see what he can do.
Matsumoto has back-to-back 50 point seasons in the AHL, and is in the middle of his third full season with the Phantoms. Needless to say, there isn't much left for Matsumoto to prove in the AHL. He has three straight 20 goal seasons, so he can clearly score as well as dish the puck. With a lack of stats available from the AHL - no time on ice or faceoff statistics, let alone quality of competition and quality of teammates - the only thing to go off of are points and plus/minus. But Matsumoto's minus-16 (worst among Phantoms forwards) is probably a big deterrent to giving him a call-up.
Despite this, Carter brought goals, points, faceoffs, and average-to-above average defense to the table. Ross brings faceoffs and defense, Matsumoto brings goals and points. Since he never played in the NHL, we don't know if he brings faceoffs. If it came down to Ross or Matsumoto, why not bring up Matsumoto and see what he can do?
Gagne - Richards - Carcillo
Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
Asham - Betts - Laperriere
van Riemsdyk - Matsumoto - Leino
That team looks a lot better than any of the previous ones, but it still isn't great.
As everything with Andreas Nodl is always perplexing and frustrating, calling him up would be as well. He was expected to be a scorer, but that is no longer the expectation. Maybe he could surprise and find a knack for scoring. But let's not get crazy. Calling up Nodl would be to fill a defensive role. Now, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Nodl would allow for the team to stack their top two lines and then go with two defensively responsible lines, looking something like this:
Gagne - Richards - Briere
van Riemsdyk - Giroux - Hartnell
Carcillo - Betts - Laperriere
Asham - Powe - Nodl
Even typing these lines up makes me want to give up. That right there is a poorly constructed team. Nothing against Nodl - he can be a solid defensive forward - but with JVR slumping again, he should not be promoted (and burdened with more responsibility and tougher opponents) hoping that he snaps out of it. Even shifting them around - Carcillo with Gagne and Richards, and Asham with Betts and Laperriere - to create a JVR - Powe - Nodl line puts a pretty big hole in the roster. That line would be a coin-flip every time they step on the ice. Unfortunately, Andreas Nodl can't help this team right now.
The best winger the team could bring up is the one they started the year with - Mika Pyorala. Not only is he the best player among Nodl, Laliberte, and Legein, he can also play center. This added flexibility would be huge if the team opts to play Leino as well. Personally, if the team calls anybody up, I hope for it to be either Matsumoto or Pyorala.
While Pyorala struggled to score at the NHL level, he maintained his solid defensive play. When he went down to the Phantoms, he has promptly added 17 points in 26 games while being a plus-9. As mentioned in the radio show, the Phantoms can't score and can't play defense. Pyorala is the only one in the positive on that team, and he is one of the few who have scored.
This may be the best lineup we've seen:
Gagne - Richards - Carcillo
Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
Asham - Betts - Laperriere
van Riemsdyk - Pyorala - Leino
Doesn't that team look a lot better than what they currently have? (Apologies to Darroll Powe, of whom we are fans of).
Unfortunately, David Laliberte would be the exact same scenario as Nodl - he can't help out on the top lines better than Leino, and he isn't as defensively responsible as Nodl. There isn't much to say, besides that if the team recalls a pure winger, they would have to break the mold and bring up a guy like Stefan Legein and not Nodl or Laliberte.
While Legein is probably a long-shot, he would probably be the best option to replace Carter's goal-scoring. Legein is the typically streaky scorer (just like Carter) who is leading the Phantoms with 26 goals. He has gone on multiple cold streaks and a few hot streaks, so if the team wants to replace their goal-scoring, Legein would probably be the guy. But he's a minus-12, so adding goals while giving them up might not be the best idea.
Conclusion
If the team decides to recall a player from the Phantoms and insert them into the lineup - which is probably a long-shot - Mika Pyorala not only fits the mold of previous call-ups, he also adds flexibility, offense, and defense to the team. He would be the best recall.
Alternatively, Jonathan Matsumoto should get his first NHL action, as he provides more of an offensive-first game. What do you think?
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WHAAAAAAAAAAAAA?
When did that happen?
Oh, This is bound to be good
You can't, but you thought that You could
Quote from Carter about injury:
It was a harmless play. Took one off the side of the foot. Got home last night and just started getting worse.
Twitter @Mitchman88
WTF! Does someone have a voodoo doll wearing a Flyers Uniform and they just keep sticking pins in it.
This just keeps getting worse and worse.
Probably a Pens’ fan.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Or Gary Bettman
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 22, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Dammit Carter!
Only kidding it isn’t his fault, but being the ultimate negative hindsight is 20/20 guy I guess they should have traded him. That was sarcasm as well. That really is not going to help the team at this point.
Time to start Johan Backlund. Get him some starts at the pro level, we’ve already experienced the worst that can happen
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 22, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed. Carchidi and Panotch are speculating that Thursday against the Wild might be a good time to try him. Let’s see what we’ve got here.
Because they’re both fucking morons.
Why would you play him Thursday, when you have back-to-back games on Sat/Sun ??
Because if he is mildly successful you can then play him back to back over the weekend. Keeping in form that is.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The Flyers have been defying the odds all year in keeping their star players healthy. They were due for an injury like this.
I guess now we’ll see what this team is like without Carter. Only problem is that the other piece of the equation (ie. a stud goalie) isn’t going to be in net to see how the team responds.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s discuss it here, but nice fanpost.
I can only assume they are just going to mail it in for the next 10 games.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Giroux can finally, solely, occupy the 2nd center position where he rightfully belongs and see if he can make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I say it’s time to see how some of the guys on the farm do with some NHL action. Might as well see what we got before we’re officially in the offseason.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Because we already have a guy taking up a roster spot that isn’t playing much. If you are going to call someone up from the AHL then Leino really doesn’t even deserve to be on the team.
It’s not about empty roster spots, it’s about playing time.
If you have Leino just rotting away not playing or you call up a guy from the AHL who is playing and will only play less in the NHL all the while Leino continues to rot then what is the point?
why not call up someone from the minors and at least give them some playing time?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Powe doesn’t belong on the team that is the problem is Powe, Carcillo and Asham are all the same guy pretty much 3rd line wingers at best. Powe is clearly the least productive player, doesn’t hit or fight nor pass well.
Wow, way to lay it out there chrislanci. Truer words could be uttered. I am surprised the “when powe plays, the flyers win” contingent didn’t roast you by now.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
AWESOME!!!!!!
Paul Holmgren is officially off the hook now. Wonderful.
This season has been a train wreck. It’s not Homer’s fault that players got injured, but it is his fault that we have no depth. He has to take the fall.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Don’t jump the gun.
Montreal beats Ottawa tonight (as they should)
Boston beats Atlanta tomorrow (as they should)
Ottawa beats the Flyers tomorrow (as they should)
And the Flyers are tied with Boston for 7th place in the conference.
If Atlanta stays hot and beats Boston
Flyers 79pts
Atlanta 77pts
--
Boston 76pts (and a game in hand)
There’s a very good chance the Flyers miss the playoffs. In which case Holmgren will be fired.
"We better damn straight make ’em," Flyers chairman Ed Snider told CSNPhilly.com on Friday, when asked about the team’s playoff grip loosening a bit here.
.
"After last night, I’m a little bit upset. I hope we’re headed for something.
Okay...
Snider’s view may change now that Carter is out.
But you know what? Oddly enough, the fact that the Sixers are terrible might make him have a shorter leash with the Flyers.
Snider wants to win, but now he’s getting to the point where he NEEDS to have a winner. Sixers fans are tired of the team being directionless, and Flyers fans have had their patience all but run out. And both fanbases are starting to look at the ownership as being responsible, since neither franchise has won a title since 1983.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Its been reported that the only reason Eddie Jordan has a job is that Snider refused to fire both his coaches mid-season.
I doubt very much that has anything to do with it but more that they don’t want to pay whoever replaces Jordan, plus Jordan, plus Mo Cheeks until the rest of the year.
It was from the Sixer’s beat writer, Kate Fagan
One of these sources indicated that the company had considered terminating Jordan earlier, but likely was “deterred” by the early-season firing of former Flyers coach John Stevens.
I’m fine with that as long as the replacement comes in and thinks this team actually needs a legit goalie to win.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
name a legit goalie that is on the market that wouldn’t cost you our best player and fit in a our cap if there was one I am sure we would have tried getting one problem is everybody not Lundquist, Miller, Louongo, Brodeur, Vokoun, and Nabokov is pretty much the same 2nd tier goalie. The other funny thing is only one of those guys has really done anything in the NHL playoffs that being Brodeur and the Devils fans aren’t to happy with him this year either.
Vokoun is available but he asked for a legit goalie on the market that wouldn’t cost you our best player and fit in our cap…in order to get him someone with a hefty cap hit has to go and Carter is the only real option. So that doesn’t answer his question.
Vokoun has done nothing in the playoffs plays for a team that has never had any pressure to win. He is just as much as ? question mark going in as the next guy plus his 33 years old. Not worth Carter I guess we will see how much scoring this team does without Carter over the next month. I would expect some players to step up in the short term 2 weeks but I doubt they will be able to carry that for the entire time he is out. Gut check time now we get to see what we are made of.
Let’s put it this way: Chris Pronger was a captain on the same Olympic team Jeff Carter was not selected for.
Pronger was an Assitant Captain to correct you and that is like comparing apples to oranges Canada has tons of centers and is weak at D-Man. But either way are you conceding Carter is the 2nd best player he is clearly the Flyers best forward if you want to get into semantics.
you could argue that but I bet it is pretty close if you asked around I think Carter is the only player on this team that is a pure goal scorer besides Gagne who you can’t rely due to injury issues.
But a pure goal scorer is not the same as best forward. It just makes him a better goal scorer than Richie which no one will disagree with, including Richie.
pretty important thing is scoring goals you take Knuble Lupol and Carter of this team that is almost 100 goals scored then you have to have JVR, Giroux and Berie each score over 30 and that is clearly not possible to make that up. Factor in Hartnell not even getting 20 and we are really screwed.
No one said scoring wasn’t important, but again there is a difference between best forward and best goal scorer. Alexander Ovechkin is the best goal scorer on the planet but he is not even the best forward on his team.
by EREX21 on Mar 22, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice to see someone outside of DC understands that.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
Have to go with Mario here.
Pronger is far and away the best player on this team.
Richards is the best forward.
Carter is, and has always been a good shot. That’s all. Don’t let goals be the sole indicator of talent. That, and there is very little chance the Flyers keep him past next season.
He should have been dealt for what they needed…. Thomas Vokoun. The offseason would therefore have been about rebuilding from the net out…like most great teams do. Now, we’re going to be dealing a somewhat questionable product (Carter, freshly fractured ankle) at next year’s deadline…. for nothing.
So in effect….
You end up trading your number 2 forward for a number one starting goalie.
Where’s the downside?
okay we would be in the same boat as Florida, can’t score goals and therefore can’t win.
Richards, Gagne, JVR, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell
vs.
Weiss, Booth, Frolik, Horton, Reinprecht and Dvorak
what six is better slight edge to Philly but that is a maybe
Are you fucking serious? I’m not even going to waste my time explaining how stupid this comparison is.
You miss the fact that Florida has/nor had at any oint in this season a DEFENSE capable of stopping the Sister’s of the Boor Missionary JV squad.
You miss the fact that Florida has/nor had at any point in this season a DEFENSE capable of stopping the Sister’s of the Poor Missionary JV squad.
They give up around 45 shots a game to opponents.
yeah in Florida defense is really the problem the have 18th ranked GA/G at 2.82 and mere 0.10 worst than our Flyers 15th ranked 2.72.
Meanwhile there offense is ranked 26th with 2.54 G/G but it is defense that is hurting them okay I guess I am wrong
Only a difference of .10 speaks exactly to how good the goalie is considering he on averages faces 10-15 shots more a game than the Flyers goalies face. That is kind of the point.
how many of last nights goals would Vokoun have prevent the one weak one Boucher let in that is still a 2-1 loss take away
he probably would have stopped all 3 of them. So we would have won 1-0. Not one of those goals yesterday was unstoppable.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, Chris. Vokoun is the reason the GA/G is that low. Look at the shots faced…. that is directly correlated to your defense.
You’re really looking in the wrong place.
remember Chris is really Paul Holmgren.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
immitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet you Florida has been playing better D than the Flyers lately not many scoring chances but lots of quality scoring chances
I was at the Phoenix game, which was a monumental collapse of Florida’s defense.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
You see Chris, in Florida it is the goalie that shored up the defense this season…
In Philly it’s the defense that shored up the goalie.
I agree but how much shoring up can a defense do is the question lots of goals that Flyers gave up this year were not the goaltenders fault and even Vokuon would have made the difference. Goal scoring has been the problem all year long.
okay Dinky with Vokoun in net how many goals do the Flyers give him HockeyOutsiders seem to believe we never give up a goal again
Flyers have 7 losses when the score 3 goals or more.
I’d say Vokoun easily makes up for the lost goal scoring in Carter.
Especially in the playoffs, where defenses win championships.
Over the course of a season, I’d say Vokoun wins you at least 10-15 games by himself. Over a playoff series…. he steals you a game… which is exactly what you want.
where the hell were you last week when Mario and I tried to explain this point?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Where were you when your points were proved wrong last week, I guess quietly observing. I understand what you all are saying about a #1 goaltender and I agree to a point but to keep harping on the rumor of this trade is getting old. There is no point to keep saying here, we don’t know what would of happened, we don’t know how the team would have reacted, we just don’t know, you can push your opinions as far as you want and throw out current facts but in truth none of them have any relevancy to your hypothetical trade
by flyers17 on Mar 22, 2010 11:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Carter accounts for 0.5 G/G I don’t think Vokun could get this team down to 2.20 G/G defense is more of a system thing like MarioD says with this system the goal is the score goals under Steven’s defensive system Vokuon goal matter that much but not with this one. I don’t think the Flyers would have changed systems if we had a goalie like that to begin but that is a different argument and it is a little to late for that. Trading Carter for Vokoun is not a good thing for this team they way we play now.
Ok, first of all…
72 games /33 Goals=.45 G/game
Which means that your statistical comparison, Thomas Vokoun only has to stop one more goal per 7 periods (roughly) (Actually, stop one more goal in 132 minutes.)
There is no comparison. Vokoun was the better choice.
I mean Vokoun only has a .928 sv % and faced 1817 shots this year.
Extrapolating it out a bit…. all three goalies the Flyers have played this year have faced a total of 2073 shots. If you apply Vokoun’s save% to that you get 149 goals against. (this is if he played 100% of the games) Saying he plays 80% of the games( a much more likely number) He therefore gives up 119 goals in the season.
The Flyers Goalies combined have given up 191 Goals against.
191-119= 72 Goals differentially.
Carter = 33 Goals.
Which is bigger?
but not every shot is the same you can’t just extrapolitae save pct 119 goals against would put us over 47 goals better than the best defensive team in the league NJD with 166 there is no way Vokuon does that NO WAY
you are saying our team would have a 1.65 GA/G okay I am sure that is possible that might be a NHL record
Yes way. The Flyers are defensively awesome. Adding the best goaltender in the league to the best defense in the league would do exactly that.
If they were allowed to play defense instead of four men forechecking…
The roster, even as it is now, is the strongest defensive roster in the league.
for me the simple argument is as follows:
With Vokoun in net, this team has a chance to compete in the playoffs. I’m not saying they would have won, but they had a chance.
With Carter (and now without him) did anyone think this team even had a chance in the first round. Be honest…
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you are also not factoring in assists
also with the number you are saying our team with Vokuon in our system we would be better defensively than both the NJD and Buffalo I don’t think that is going to happen you are also not factor Carter’s strong defensive play which also helps but that is hard to factor in better to ignore in
Exactly… Flyers 8th in the league in scoring at 2.90 per game.
6th in the league for Shots Against, at 28.8
…but 15th in the league for Goals Against (2.72)
shots against doesn’t mean you can win a game while been outshot we did a whole lot of that last season why is that because the few shots we did take were on the PP or high quality scoring chances that no goalie was going to get Vokuon or otherwise
It’s simple:
The more shots you take the better chance you have to win.
The less shots you face, the better chance you have to win.
You are right, just because you have more shots than your opponent does not mean you are going to win but it does increase your chances, significantly.
even if the flyers get the GA down to 2.00 they will still have to score 3 goals to win the game most of our losses come when we don’t score
or because we scored at 3.17 G/G last year good for 3rd in the coference with Lupul and Knuble and Hartnell playing good.
That doesn’t even make sense.
The Flyers won despite being outshot because they had better forwards?
The reason they were outshot consistently is because the forwards were such great players.
Jesus Christ.
yes shooting percentage is a stat better forwards score more goals on fewer shots
Knuble was 16% shooting percentage
Lupul was 12.9%
Carcillo is 10.6%
JVR is 9.6%
Ha ha ha.
Because JVR and Carcillo are replacing those two?
Here’s a better idea: Compare Ray Emery’s shooting percentage to Knuble’s to prove your point.
what that also means as we can fall a lot further in offensively and only get slightly better defensively
You’re goalie is your best defender. You upgrade your goalie and your defense just got a whole lot better.
If we trade carter, we have to play a man short every game.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You are both retarded, the same reason that we are not happy about Carter being injured is the same as him being traded….I thought you both were knowledgable but obviously you just are stubborn and love to throw out hypotheticals because you don’t know what the hell would happen and to say you would is just silly
by flyers17 on Mar 22, 2010 11:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m fine with doing this
Scotty Bowman believes strongly in the Detroit model: If you don’t have a top-three goalie, you protect him with great team defence and puck possession.
But the Flyers didn’t do that. They needed to improve puck possession, that starts with faceoffs. They didn’t sign an elite faceoff guy.
You need great defensemen. They chose to give away a quality dman (Randy Jones) in order to keep a defensive liability (JVR) at forward.
You need a defensive system. They wouldn’t let Stevens teach that, then they fired him and hired a coach to teach a system that over-pursues the puck and leaves forwards as defensemen.
You need a defensive system. They wouldn’t let Stevens teach that
That’s on the players, not management. The players did not play for him consistently. And the fact that the players are not playing for Laviolette consistently tells you that the issue is not with the coaching, but the players.
You need great defensemen. They chose to give away a quality dman (Randy Jones)
You can throw all the stats at me that you want, but you’ll never convince me that Randy Jones is a “quality” defenseman. Sorry.
a system that over-pursues the puck and leaves forwards as defensemen.
When the Flyers play the system that way, they are doing so incorrectly. The idea is that you take time and space away from your opponents. That is what Detroit has been doing since the late 1990s.
The idea is not to blindly run around after the puck and leave people out of position. If a defenseman pinches, a forward covers the abandoned point. Not all forwards are like Danny Briere in their own end of the ice.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Randy Jones turned into the 6th DMan and you can’t pay your 6th DMan 3.5 million dollars. His game was never the same after he hit Bergeron.
Randy Jones is better than Coburn, Parent, Krajicek, and Bartulis. He’d be the fourth defenseman on this roster.
only because Coburn and Parent regressed which nobody saw to start the season Parent Coburn and Carle were all slotted above him. Hindsight is 20/20 but Randy Jones is still not worth 3.5 million regardless and that is on Homer. Why not just let someone make Jones an offer and match it if not we get the picks I doubt anyone would have offered even 3.5 million. Home basically got into a bidding war with himself on that contract. Same can be said for Lupul as well.
Ryan Parent did not regress. He is the same player he’s been his entire career. Jones is better than Braydon Coburn.
Randy Jones is still not worth 3.5 million
You know what he’s really not worth? $1.7m to play for another team.
agree with you there but you know who is worth 1.7 million Mike Knuble he is making 2.8 and we could have gotten him for less with Vet incentives and not having to carry Cote around there is your 2.2 right there.
1) They couldn’t have gotten him for less.
2) He is also making 2.8 next season, which is just dumb.
3) Cote would still be on this team, JVR wouldn’t.
I don’t know that Knuble at 2.8 mil next year is all that dumb. If he was not hurt this year he would have had more points than any of his years in Philly except his first season. I think those numbers along with what he does for the team as a veteran presence who was respected by his peers is worth the 2.8. But thats my opinion.
He was atrocious on penalties last year when he was on a team that played defense.
He’s 37 years old and not a very fast skater.
He just didn’t fit what this hockey team was trying to do.
He was a scoring RW net presence played good D was good in the corners his skill level had nothing to with it he is playing on a very fast aggressive team in WSH and his tearing it up. He wasn’t streaky was old reliable and that is exactly what we need.
he played a lot better last season being paired with Timmo and should have been paired with him all year either way I can give you Parent but he was and would have been the 5th DMan a 3rd pairing guy.
That’s on the players, not management… The players did not play for him consistently. And the fact that the players are not playing for Laviolette consistently tells you that the issue is not with the coaching, but the players.
I don’t know what this means. Paul Holmgren told John Stevens over the summer to change his system to be more aggressive and less defensive.
You can throw all the stats at me that you want, but you’ll never convince me that Randy Jones is a "quality" defenseman. Sorry.
If you’re going to choose to just be ignorant, then there’s really no reason to have a discussion.
Is it just me or has Kimmo looked like garbage lately too? I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s injured as well.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a very good chance the Flyers miss the playoffs. In which case Holmgren will be fired.
I agree that the Flyers have a very good chance of missing the playoffs. I just think that Holmgren will get off the hook due to:
- Injuries to Emery, Leighton, and Carter
- The fact that the Flyers hired a new coach who required that the players get in better shape
- God knows what else
I could be wrong, and I hope I am.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I guess pulling the lucky puck out last night as they showed they wer not going to win might have been a little bad karma. I will take the blame for that one.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm almost afraid of the playoffs
the way things seem to just never solidify for us and just seem to crack and break and fall apart….lets hope we don’t get Pitt first round, or we WILL be ousted early.
Skip the Pitt, Move on down to Broad Street....
Philadelphia Flyers / Columbus Blue Jackets, 'nuff said.
I’m not sure there is another team we could face that isn’t going to mean we won’t be ousted early.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
this team was just built bad from the start of the season.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course, the only reason I’ve been point out that fact since the start of the season is that I’m a secret Penguins fan.
I’m a Jets fan. Let’s go Phoenix!
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Updated the Story...
…looking at any potential (likely) call-ups.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions
Let’s not call up any more centers…I am good with Leino getting a chance to play consistently but if not then I would like to see in this order:
Legein
Laliberte
Nodl
So you want:
Gagne – Richards – Carcillo
Hartnell – Giroux – Briere
JVR – Powe – Leino
Asham – Betts – Laperriere
Cote
?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you missed the logical solution to the problem of not having one guy who can do all the things Carter does: the flyers have two empty roster spots. Call up two guys who compliment each other and switch the lineup depending on the opponent.
If I’m GM, I’d call up Pyorala, Ross, and Matsumoto. Carter to LTIR and JVR to the AHL. Then the roster is:
Gagne-Richards-Carcillo
Hartnell-Giroux-Briere
Asham-Betts-Lapereirre
Leino-Powe-Pyorala
With Cote, Matsumoto, and Ross to fill in. I’d try Pyorala on the Betts line and hope they can click.
But they won’t demote JVR not matter how atrociously he plays. So here’s a realistic lineup:
Gagne-Richards-Hartnell
Briere-Giroux-Asham
Leino-Matsumoto-Powe
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere
Cote, JVR, Pyorala in the press box.
Well, I’m opposed to calling up Matsumoto or Pyorala just to have them sit in the press box. At least until the Phantoms season is over (which is soon.) If you’re going to call somebody up to sit in the box, I’m all for that being Ross or Jason Ward – one center, one winger.
Lastly, if it’s unrealistic to expect JVR to be demoted (which it is), it’s also unrealistic to expect JVR to sit in the press box. So, here’s a more realistic version of your second lineup:
Gagne – Richards – Hartnell
Leino – Giroux – Briere
Carcillo – Betts – Laperriere
JVR – Matsumoto – Pyorala
Cote, Asham, Powe in the press box. Powe/Asham/Pyorala could easily be interchanged, but I like that lineup a lot more than the second one you listed.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, I don’t know why mario (even if he is right) has this axe to grind vs. JVR. I look at it as at least the guy is getting some experience. He’s not going to gain anything at this point playing in the AHL, might as well, let him continue to play at the NHL level and he’s probably better than anyone we can call up, regardless of how bad he really is.
What I’m an advocate of is calling up some of these prospects and letting them play. Let’s see what we have with 10 games left, which means I’m all for inserting Matsumoto and Ross into the lineup. We kind of know what we have in Pyorala already…
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with everything, if only you’d have swapped Ross out. Besides the fact that you named two centers, I think it’s pretty clear what he is: a grinder with some leadership skills who can fill in if needed, but a career-AHLer.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have said OR instead of and, my mistake.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I want JVR out of the lineup because he’s a goddamn liability on the ice.
Leino-Giroux-Briere seems like far too small, unphysical a line.
Maybe Powe-Matsumoto-Pyorala would work.
If you’re going to call somebody up to sit in the box, I’m all for that being Ross or Jason Ward – one center, one winger.
Pyorala is a winger and Ross/Matsumoto is the center.
I get that, but you don’t think the call ups are going to be huge liabilities on the ice? JVR isn’t going to gain anything at this point from a trip to the AHL.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Just playing more with competition that sure as hell better not be over his head might get his legs under him and mind around the pro game.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, somehow I don’t see that. I think he benefits more now from being in the lineup. If anything, they should throw him to the wolves and let him play on the first or second line.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I should drop Carter from my fantasy team.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, don’t get me wrong I am all for the wolves philosophy but that is not happening so get his pro game on track. 8 – 10 minutes a night is not going to cut it for this guy.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
The call ups would not be liabilities on the ice, because I would replace JVR with Pyorala if JVR goes to the AHL. There’s no room on this roster for JVR. He cannot be the best player on his line, and that’s what he’s going to be with Carter out.
He doesn’t create anything. His goals come from standing in front of the net. Go here:
http://flyers.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?hlg=20092010,2,930&fr=false
Then go to the right side of the player and in the list of goals, click on JVR’s name. That will bring up the video of every goal he scored this season. Seriously, watch them all. Of the 12, three are breakaways that are set up by nice passes from other players. Four of them are tap ins where all he had to do was keep his stick on the ice. One was a turnover in the slot that he one-timed home. Four were actual good hockey plays he made to create a chance.
This is further evidenced by the fact that he hasn’t assisted on a goal since January 28th (20 games). 0 assists.
So: You’re asking if I think there’s an AHL player who can stand around, slam home a tap-in goal, play poor defensive, not block shots, not take the body, and not create scoring chances?
but what’s the point? It’s not like we’re saving the season. Throw the guy on the first line and let him play.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I get your point, I don’t agree with it. Sending him down sends the wrong message. Look at Stamkos, the guy was awful last season, but it got his head in the right place because he realized he was the future of the franchise and now he’s tearing it up. I’m not saying JVR=Stamkos, but they are both high round picks that have certain expectations coming with a high draft pick.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Stamkos has a way different pedigree than JVR. He played major junior hockey and competed at the highest levels for his age along the way. Lets face it JVR played college hockey for what is a nice program but can not compete with the major juniors on a consistent basis. Stamkos was groomed to be a pro, JVR has the skills but lacks the experience of playing at the highest levels. And yes college players have come out to be good players but not at the consistency of Canadian major junior players.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I want JVR out of the lineup because he’s a goddamn liability on the ice.
While conceding that JVR, while slumping, is not providing much of anything to this team, you’re very clearly allowing personal bias to overtake putting the best team on the ice. Now, if you’re taking him out of the lineup to give up on the season and scout for next year, fine, whatever, I disagree, but don’t care. But there’s no way that you have now decided that Darroll Powe is better than JVR. He’s just not.
As far as the Leino – Giroux – Briere line being far too small, well, I agree. I didn’t look at that while typing, but that’s a legitimate concern I have no fix for.
Pyorala is a winger and Ross/Matsumoto is the center.
You’re talking about who you would call up, but I was talking about who you would sit. In the second lineup of yours that I tweaked, I don’t want to call up Matsumoto just to sit. And I’d be lukewarm to calling up Pyorala unless he’ll play. He could always use more ice time.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
But there’s no way that you have now decided that Darroll Powe is better than JVR. He’s just not.
As I alluded to above, there’s no role for JVR on this team.
Without Carter, you’ve got to have two scoring lines, and two mucking lines. You can no longer afford to pretend JVR-Giroux-Asham is a scoring line.
It’s got to be your top five forwards on your top two lines, the Betts line, and then another hard-working mucker line and pray that line can play even hockey. JVR doesn’t fit on that line.
Well, that makes sense. But that’s exactly what Matsumoto is, so your Leino – Matsumoto – Powe line is just as defensively irresponsible if you replace Powe with JVR.
In theory, your idea is correct. In practice, all four of those guys I just mentioned are offensively minded (and challenged, at least in the NHL) with below-average at best defensive skill. Your solution leaves the perfect line to put JVR on.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Leino-Matsumoto-Powe was if they kept up the pretense of a scoring line.
First, look at the first set, my ideal combos, which had that extra line as Leino-Powe-Pyorala. That’s the forechecking/grinding line I was envisioning.
Powe is an okay defensive player. I don’t know what Leino is but I’m guessing he’s okay defensively? Honestly, in creating that Leino-Matsumoto-Powe line, I just thought you can’t dress both Matsumoto and JVR, since they need a center, they would have to choose Matsumoto.
Powe is an okay defensive player.
Did you say that through gritted teeth?
Feb. 4, 2010: “Powe always sucks.”
Dec. 11, 2009: “Any team offered Darryl(sic) Powe will be laughing out loud long after Holmgren hangs up the phone in frustration.”
Dec. 5, 2009: “Powe is not a good player, that ain’t going to ever change.”
Dec. 4, 2009: “Powe is a defensive liability”
Sep. 1, 2009: “Ie: Darrol Powe, last season, was the seventh worst even strength player in all of the NHL.”
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, it’s all available to anybody and everybody using the advanced search.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s been better in the d zone lately, hasn’t he?
He should basically be the 13th man a roster, but in comparison to Matsumoto and JVR I feel like Powe at least tries to do something. Early in the year, trying to do something defensively meant doing the wrong thing. I think he’s gotten calmer now and can stay in position, compared to JVR who just stands there in the D zone while players skate past him.
Well, I’d certainly agree he’s gotten better. His effort in the d-zone is definitely more apparent than JVRs, but effort is only one aspect. Intelligence and skill are equally important.
Accepting the premise that Powe is better defensively than JVR, does that really outweigh the offensive skill? Having a Leino-Moto-Powe line is still a below-average defensive line, just like Leino-Moto-JVR. Only difference is that Leino-Moto-JVR is better offensively.
Even saying that balances out – the line with Powe’s defensive ability prevents as many goals as JVRs line scores and vice versa – which player is more important to the team’s future, and which would be most hurt by sitting in the press box? (This also assumes that neither player will be sent down.)
While I’m of the opinion that the LMJ line’s offensive abilities outweigh the LMP line’s defensive abilities, even if they were even, JVR should not be sitting.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Simply, Powe plays more and does more than JVR. JVR has more raw offensive tools (which he hasn’t utilized in about two months now) no doubt. But given the choice of one of them going over the boards for a single shift in a tie game… I’m more comfortable sending out Powe and the likelihood that he’ll eat ice time and let me get Richards on for the next shift than I am in sending out JVR and hoping he scores before he gives up a goal. (Obviously a simplification.)
I need to expand upon “does more”.
He draws penalties. He blocks shots (he actually leads the forwards in bs/60 (actually, see footnote) He bangs bodies. And he can use his speed to forecheck better than JVR.
So in a different way of boiling it down: Powe will forecheck and get the puck, but he doesn’t have the skill to put the puck in the net. JVR is less likely to get the puck forechecking, but in the less-often situation he does get the puck, he’s more likely to score.
What is going on at BTN? They don’t have Betts or Lappy listed as Flyers anymore?
The minimum time on ice drop down menu needed to be adjusted.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand the whole “pretense of a third-scoring line”, but you can dress both Moto and JVR.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Because dressing Moto and Powe changes that?
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
from anthony san
Just for some housekeeping: Flyers want to recall David Laliberte, but he’s injured right now. Homer said he’ll be fine by the weekend (1/2)
If so, expect him. If not he said Legein possibly but he 2 is dealing with an injury (wrist). Leino will play 4 now. Giroux moves to C (2/2)
by letsgoflyers on Mar 22, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, the guy I brushed off as the worst of three/four wingers available. Awesome.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that he’s bad, of course. I would just put his skillset as the third or fourth best option: Pyorala is better all-around, Nodl is better defensively, and Legein is better offensively. All around, maybe Laliberte is second best? Not sure, but he’s definitely not the best winger offensively, defensively, or all-around. Another perplexing move that screams of “we don’t have a plan, other than to have a body sitting around just in case. And we’d rather stunt his development than carry Jason Ward on our plane.”
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
i cant even pretend like i understand how their minds work
by letsgoflyers on Mar 22, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol, doom and gloom Mario still must have hope in the back of his mind… advocating sitting JVR at this point only makes sense if you think his liability is a detriment to our playoff hopes.
Newsflash… we have no playoff hopes.
Play the hell outta the kid…. let him get as much experience as possible. IMHO.
I’m with you. If JVR is the future, put him on the first line, give him the Patrick Kane treatment.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, I don’t even think it helps to play him from a developmental standpoint.
All its going to do is continue to frustrate him. I’d rather send him to the AHL, let him tear that up for two weeks, and then call it a season. That way, he’s got something positive to build on.
Right now, he’s clearly lost on the ice, he’s never faced this kind of adversity, I think it could be hurting more than it helps.
I don’t agree with you. Sending the kid down does more damage to his psyche, IMO, then letting him get his chance to replace the offense that is missing now with Carter out (not that he will, I’m just saying)
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me just jump in here to say you both make excellent points, and it basically boils down to this:
JVR now has a chance to step up, get playing time, get experience. Does the chance that he fails hurt his psyche more than sending him down and telling him the organization doesn’t think he can handle it?
There isn’t an answer to that unless you personally know JVR, and even then, the organization isn’t guaranteed (haha, that totally sounds like they’re competent in personal relations) to make the right decision.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
he’s a high draft pick. He’s got lofty expectations that come with that. Sure there are plenty of high draft picks that never pan out when they have too much put on them right away(Meuller comes to mind), but there are also plenty of examples of high draft picks being thrust into key roles that flounder, then seem to get it and shine. Now is the time for the Flyers to send the message that it’s time for JVR to become the future of the franchise. We aren’t in season saving mode right now anyway.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
1) I’m being more realistic. As much as we think there’s nothing to save, Holmgren and Laviolette are clearly trying to save their jobs and will do what is best to win tomorrow.
2) Is 10 games really going to help him now? He’s got 70 NHL games in. How do the last 10 make a difference?
I believe being thrust into a major role for the last 10 games will make a difference. Once again, I see your point, I just don’t agree with it. I think this provides the perfect opportunity for management/team to send the message that he’s the future. Now you do make a very good point with #1, which means clearly this team won’t do it, but they certainly aren’t going to send him the AHL which you advocate, so again, what did we gain in the end? Nothing. So the team didn’t damage the kid by sending him down or setting him up for failure, but they did nothing to either improve him or ruin him, so they send the message that they are perfectly happy that JVR is what he has been all season and that’s average.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that its dependent on his temperament, which we don’t know.
There are four scenarios, in order of likelihood (of outcome (ie: after the dash), not of the Flyers doing it):
1) He goes to the AHL – excels
2) He stays in the NHL – continues to do nothing, possibly gets scratched
3) He stays in the NHL – excels the next 10 games.
4) He goes to the AHL – fails at that level, which is the worst possible scenario and may lead to Legein convincing him to retire
My way of thinking is that you play the percentages:
If he goes to the AHL he can build on that, maybe work on some fundamentals against the inferior competition, etc.
If he stays at the NHL, he’s around for the apocalyptic hellscape that locker room is turning into, then he’s failing on the ice, it’s just bad all around him.
yup, but they aren’t going to do either yours or my idea, so I guess here we are again playing the “what if game”
1. what if JVR gets sent to the AHL to start and they keep Randy Jones
2. what if they sign Maholtra
3. what if they just stuck with Biron/Nitty
4. what if they traded Carter for Vokoun
i suppose that’s why we all get to be armchair GM’s
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
If they had done any one of those four things, this team at least has the #5 seed locked up.
Had they done 1, 2, and 4, they’re the best team in the conference. Just look at what that lineup would be…
Gagne-Richards-Briere
Hartnell-Giroux-Leino
Powe-Malhotra-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere
Pronger-Carle
Timmonen-Coburn
Jones-Parent
Biron
Nitty
Whoops, screwed up the goalies:
Gagne-Richards-Briere
Hartnell-Giroux-Leino
Powe-Malhotra-Asham
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere
Pronger-Carle
Timmonen-Coburn
Jones-Parent
Vokoun
Biron/Nitty (assuming one would be traded to Florida with Carter, probably Nitty since he’s younger)
hindsight is 20/20
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i guess you’re in the wrong profession then.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 22, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry to be jumping in so late, but I didn’t see anybody else talk about this….
Regardless of whether or not we want to send JVR to the AHL, can we even do it? I don’t think we’re allowed…
CBA Article 13 lists the rules for waivers….
13.12 Transfers To/From Minors.
13.12.(j) A Player may be Loaned to a club of any league affiliated with the League
at any time up to 3:00 p.m. New York time of the fortieth (40th) day immediately
preceding the final day of the Regular Season (the “Trade Deadline”). Following this
period only the Player or Players who have been Recalled during such restricted period
under Article 13.12(l) or 13.12(m) may be Loaned back to the member club of the
affiliated league from which they were Recalled.
(For clarity, 13.12.(l) refers to the fact that the club has a limit of 4 recalls from the AHL club after the trade deadline, while 13.12.(m) is the emergency recall provision for when we fall below a certain number of healthy players.)
Since JVR was never on the AHL roster before the trade deadline, and thus is not currently on recall from the Phantoms under either of those provisions, I don’t think sending him down is even an option. I just got home from a long day at work though so I’m really out of it and thus I could be wrong here, but I’m pretty sure that’s the way it’s supposed to be interpreted.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 22, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s on a 2 way contract, I don’t think that applies to him.
I don’t see why you couldn’t move players up and down if they are on two way contracts?
I thought two way contracts were mostly about pay scale in the two leagues, but didn’t change things like the time restrictions on when a player can and can’t be loaned to the AHL. I’m pretty sure he’s still waiver exempt, but I don’t think that’s relevant here either. That whole section (13.12) isn’t about whether or not a player goes through waivers or whether or not it’s a two way contract, it’s just about loaning players to the AHL in general. Since we’re in that restricted time period, and he doesn’t meet the condition of having been called up under 13.12.(l) or 13.12.(j), I don’t think his two way status makes him exempt from that rule.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 22, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Geoff that looks like the best of the beastly.
Might as well give Matsumoto a shot….. Pyorala anchors that line with responsibility at least. (There’ll be at least three skaters concerned with defense on the ice at the time)
I’ve been a proponent of Leino for a long time…. He needs a chance. Have many Red Wings friends still pissed about that deal…. he really has potential. At least he’s with playmakers in that line.
Leino – Giroux – Briere
That line would get outmuscled constantly.
However, I like the idea of pairing Leino with Giroux. Leino seems to be the type if player who needs to get an open look at the net, and Giroux is good at puck control while looking for an open pass. Pair them with Hartnell, who will bang around in the corners and at the front of the net.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I know this is a really crazy idea but if they were paired together maybe they could employ the technique of skating around people and creating offense from speed transition, puck support in front of the net area and accurate passing.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
They could, but on a road game the opposing coach would always send out his big tough checkers against those guys and they’d get outmuscled. It’s not for lack of effort.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
If they were staying away from total engagement in the corners and playing a speed game they would also draw a lot of penalties from big tough checkers. Besides who are these big tough checkers on other teams you speak of? All the checkers in this league play for either us or the farm club, we have cornered the market.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I realized that earlier, after someone else brought it to my attention. Excellent point, that line is way too small. Totally just skipped right over it.
Swap Briere with Hartnell?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, or possibly Asham as Mario suggested. They could do this:
Gagne-Richards-Briere
Leino-Giroux-Asham
Hartnell-Powe-JVR
LCB 2.0
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I am over it!
I am not seeing this Carter thing as that big of a deal. Last I checked his offensive contribution was winning us games seeing as it has been inconsistent all year. And this team was never bound for glory regardless. I am really looking forward to Giroux having a lengthy occupation at the 2nd center position. No more jerking around with it and we can tell if his creativeness will spark scoring over the last ten games. If he does get a legit steady shot at the 2nd center position and doesn’t show it is his to lose then this offseason maybe the Flyers consider moving Giroux as one of the odd centers out, it is between him and Carter. I am not loyal to anyone on this team right now. I am tired of the over loyalty.
This team needs to pick model. Either get steady veterans and the best veteran goalie possible and make a run at the cup next year or start the fire sale and make it as miserable as possible for the guys with the NTCs so they waive them. Although it’s nice knowing that every year the Flyer’s will be a playoff team I’m tired of them never being any more than that. Try to move as many big contracts as possible this off-season as an attempt to restructure and move forward in an attempt to win a championship in the near future or hold onto all draft picks and let this team as currently configured slowly run into the ground and begin a rebuild.
Actually this organization needs to stop pretending it is 1978. They need to hire a GM that has the brains, savvy and business-like skills to handle the position. The days of ex-players running multi-billion dollar franchises has passed. The better GM’s in this league have little to no NHL playing experience and certainly weren’t punched too many times in the head. With a GM like this, who has an intelligent business model in his head, the organization can move forward and build a team that can compete. And that means with any talent available, young, old, big or small, that is competent and balanced built from the net out.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
WHY? Because the universe is preparing this team, and the fans, for a player that, like it or not, is expendable under the make up of this team and should be the first option in the rebuilding process.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Carter would make for excellent trade bait… now we all wish we picked up a veteran goal scoring winger at the deadline
I would have been happy with an actual account of exactly where Holmgren was during the trade deadline. There was a lot of speculation of the Flyers involvement all over the league but I didn’t see one move which says to me he was on the beach in Florida sipping drinks by the pool with the players.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I fail to see how trading Carter, because you can, is the move this team should make, instead of just compounding previous mistakes (Hartnell, Briere, Gagne) out of frustration.
The Carter for Vokoun love shocks me. Do people really believe this team’s problem is goaltending and can be solved simply by getting rid of our top scorer? To make the team older?
If we’re going to push all in, then trading JVR and Giroux is far wiser, and will garner a much greater amount in return.
Further, if the idea of trading Carter is it allows us to take on an equal salary, that keeps us in cap hell.
The only package I’d want to see for Carter is a shitload of draft picks and prospects. At least then we buy lottery tickets for the future.
Trading Carter isn’t because you can in the sense that he doesn’t have an NTC, but rather you can because center is the only position that is overloaded on this team. He has high value around the league because he is very good and would get you real value more than Giroux and/or JVR ever could. And being in cap hell is easier to swallow when you have balance such as a solid starting goaltender and a scoring winger instead of four centermen needing to play in only two spots is what balances your team. That should really make sense.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
But what is there that Carter can bring back that will make this team stronger?
In an ideal world, you’re completely right. But how likely are we to find a team that has a comparable winger who they need to move for a center? And if you find a team who is willing to move a stud goaltender, how do we replace the scoring ability? This isn’t the Phillies, who can give up offense for defense. This team just doesn’t have enough scoring to give up.
Theoretically, you (and the Carter traders) are completely correct. But, like most plans, I think this falls apart upon making contact with the enemy (the NHL).
If Giroux had Carter’s time and personnel to work with he would create more scoring which would make up for some of it and as Mario just said maybe we have to stop more pucks instead of thinking that a center is going to win you games. Last night we needed Boucher to stop 2 out of those three goals and they stoppable.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Malkin, Zetterberg, Selanne, Staal. Small sample size, I know, but post-lockout teams seem to need a pretty prolific scorer to win Stanley Cups. Is there anybody on this team, other than Carter, that you have hope for as a 50 goal or 100 point guy? That’s an honest question, not rhetorical. But I can’t fathom a world in which Claude Giroux is the top scorer on a Stanley Cup Champion.
MAF, Osgood, Giguere, Ward and in 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 we had a pretty good list of prolific scorers and what did that get us, same as this year or next, tee times.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Both are necessary, neither are sufficient. I think we agree on this. But I don’t see how trading away our only top flight scoring threat gets us closer to having both, even if there is some top flight goalie out there (which I still don’t believe).
They should have made any kind of deal that worked out to send Carter to Montreal for Halak and Plechanik. Halak is better than anyone we have or had all year. Plechanik is a goal scoring winger. Both are FA at the end of this year that you could choose to sign, let get signed for draft picks or gain the cap space to pursue the better free agents at either position. Centers need to play center, wingers need to play winger. Having too many of the same position players even though they are good does not balance your team.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I am almost sure that although listed as a center he plays wing and has for some time, no??
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
If we could get Halak, I’d love it. But I don’t see that as a possibility. And again, the problem is that you’re believing someone will step up and score those goals.
That said, if this offense averages over 2.7 GPG the rest of the way, I’ll gladly admit that I’m wrong. But I just can’t see that happening.
I don’t think Giroux is anywhere near that point yet, but I wouldn’t rule out him getting to that 50 goal/100 point level at some point in the future. I’m not guaranteeing he will, I’m saying that I cannot rule it out. After all, Carter had been in the NHL for 3 full seasons before jumping to the 46 goal mark in his fourth.
I know it’s the Q and the offense numbers there are ridiculously inflated, so Giroux’s stats there are no guarantee of what he can do in the future…. But I am saying that his playoff numbers there show that anything is possible for him. To say that someone who managed to pull of 51 points (17G and 34 assists) in only 19 playoff games in 07-08 can never have that potential is hard for me to believe.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 22, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
(I don’t mean that as an argument for trading Carter, I only meant to say that I wouldn’t underestimate what Giroux could possibly do someday)
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 22, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
And Giroux is not a goal scorer. Would everyone finally realize this. He is a playmaker, which is what a center should be. Scoring is important but he isn’t making anyone around him that much better.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Malkin, Zetterberg, Selanne, Staal. Small sample size, I know, but post-lockout teams seem to need a pretty prolific scorer to win Stanley Cups. Is there anybody on this team, other than Carter, that you have hope for as a 50 goal or 100 point guy?
Malkin
Zetterberg
Selanne
Eric Staal
What’s so awesome about this list is that none of the guys you listed have scored fifty goals in a season in this decade. Only Selanne has ever done it, and not since 1997-98.
I hate to engage with someone like you (with no reading comprehension skills), but, I’m bored, so…
Eric Staal, 45-55-100
Teemu Selanne, 48-46-94
Henrik Zetterberg, 43-49-92
Evgeni Malkin, 35-78-113
Thank you for lowering the bar for me. Is there anyone on the Flyers who can even approach those levels? Other than your hero Scott Hartnell, of course.
Yes.
Danny Briere has scored 95 points in a season.
Simon Gagne has 41 and 47 goal seasons in his career.
Even with the soft melon I would take Lindros over Carter.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 10:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There’s not even a question. Remember, Lindros played in a defensive era, not the video game era Carter played in. AND Lindros played on a shitty team for the first several years of his career, Carter joined a team with Forsberg, Gagne, Primeau, etc.
Lindros
Rookie: 41g, 75pts
2nd: 44g, 97pts
3rd (lockout shortened half-season): 29g, 70pts (!!!) 46gp
4th: 47g, 115pts
Despite the mediocre last five years, Lindros still retired with 865pts in just 760 games.
As a Flyers, he scored 659 points in just 486 games. That’s 1.36ppg.
If I could have Lindros at age 21 or Carter at age 21 tomorrow, absolutely.
But Carter’s career is always going to hold up longer. Even if Lindros could play next season with the no headshot rules, he always had a body that was breaking down and he played a style of game that sent him further down the path.
So I’d rather have Carter at age 32 than Lindros at age 32.
I hear your logic, but all I can remember is near the end, where Lindros sorta skated around, didn’t always look like he was playing. When he was going, he was a bull and there was no stopping him, but it wasn’t always there. And then there was the slight issue of concussions
by JerseyDriver on Mar 22, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
You and the rest of the Clarke loyalists should be ashamed of yourselves. Eric Lindros was a horse and no other player was ever asked to do what he did so early and at such a high cost. Not Lemeux, not Gretzky, not Crosby and not Ovechkin. He was asked, before he was 20 years old mind you, to lead the team , score prolifically, fight to protect himself and others and last but not least resurrect an entire franchise from what was in total disarray during that era. And while all these entitled whiners are sitting their asses in that beautiful building they love to forget who friggin’ built it. The guy was a piece of meat that everyone including the management of this team took a pound of flesh from and then cast him aside when he finally pushed back and said enough is enough. Carter could not caddy Eric Lindros’ hockey sticks.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 23, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I despise Lindros but you are absolutely right.
Thought I would say Crosby was asked to do everything that Lindros did. The difference is that Crosby had more help in Malkin and MAF.
Even Crosby doesn’t have the ppg average Lindros did and that is including the last years of his career when he was totally cooked. And Crosby was never asked to fight against legitimate heavyweight fighters. I know a lot of people dislike the guy because of the spin the team put on the end of his career here but that dude should be beloved in this town.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 23, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
You are right that Crosby has not been asked to defend himself against against other guys, but Crosby was asked to lead his team and be the man in rebuilding what had become a joke of a franchise.
While I do agree that management certainly put a spin on things with Lindros making him out to be an ungrateful little bitch, I don’t believe it was that far off. The team, the doctors and management absolutely mismanaged Lindros’s series of injuries, no doubt about it.
But Lindros seemed to have no problem criticizing anyone and everyone. Never forget that he was drafted by the Nordiques and refused to play for them and had to be traded to the Flyers. Personally, I don’t think anyone who wants to play pro sports has a right to refuse to play for a team that drafts them. I’m talking to you Lindros, Eli Manning and J.D Drew to name a few. But Lindros did do that, he made himself bigger than a team and that to me is what made it so easy for media and the Flyers brass to bash the guy and make him out to be a me first ego freak. Which, he is by the way.
That aside, he was absolutely one of the most dominant players the Flyers have ever had and one of the most dominant of his era. But the only way to be a super star and be loved by your city is to produce at a high level and never speak out against the organization because I think all fans seem to agree, at the end of the day, it’s about the team, and not the individual. And fans can write off a player much faster than they can write off an entire team.
Do you know what is so funny about that prospective and you are entitled to it by all means. Keith Primeau is loved in this town for scoring one goal, not averaging 1.36 ppg over his career and carrying a team on his back to a Stanley Cup Finals. Primeau is a guy that talked his way out Detroit and Carolina over money that he never even came close to earning and then when the team he was the captain of failed he plunged a dagger in the neck of a true Philadelphia legend, Bill Barber. This totally amazing to me. Lindros was a church mouse year after year while this team put not only his health aside, his career in jeopardy but his life at risk as well. Then when it suited Clarke he disposed of Lindros in the same cut throat style he used on the ice. Clarke is a legendary player but he treated Lindros like a son and then he was the one that started the anti-press when it started going down hill by criticizing his health and manhood. Bob Clarke challenged Lindros’ manhood and he was a guy who spent his career sticking people in gut and hiding behind the goons, even he did not have to do what Lindros was asked to do. As you can tell I am a Lindros fan and saw him as a guy that had the world placed on his shoulders at 17 years old and came damn near winning it all. Closer than all the lesser talented hero’s we love around here over they years.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 23, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I am not a huge Primeau fan myself so I can’t speak to why people love him. I never thought he was all that great here in Philly. I am 26. So my history with the Flyers pretty much starts with Lindros and the L.O.D. My favorite Flyer was and will always be Brind’Amour.
I agree with Dragongirl in that Lindros may have very well been a different person, or at least had a different mentality had his father and mother not been involved in things as much as they were. They did not help the situation, no doubt about it.
I also agree with you M in that Clarke is every bit as much to blame for how it all played out as Lindros was. Clarke questioned Lindros’ manhood and Lindros responded. Fair enough, he should have. Clarke betrayed Lindros, there is no doubt in my mind of that. But fans gave Clarke the benefit of the doubt, Clarke was a Flyer legend long before Lindros ever put on the uniform. Clarke won cups. Lindros’ team was swept by an inferior team in the finals. Right or wrong that is the way it is. People hate Lindros because he burned every bridge on his way out of town. Whether or not it was provoked seems to be ignored. When you are the center of a team and you fail to bring home a championship then more often than not you are criticized more than you are praised. Look no further than the team that plays across the street and the man who wears # 5.
Good points other then the inferior team part. That Detroit Red Wings team was as close to dynastic as you can get. There was Lindros, Brindamour and Desjardin against well go look at the Wings list of players, they were amazing. Garth Snow was the goaltender along with an over the hill Hextall.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 23, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, inferior probably was not the best word. But they should not have been embarrassed the way they were.
4-2, 4-2, 6-1 and 2-1 is hardly getting embarrassed. People revise the history of that series so badly. And the Hextall/Snow tandem was 99 for 115 = .860 save percentage while Vernon was 102 for 108 = .944 save percentage. Kind of says a lot. Thanks Clarke for you “choking” on the goaltender position.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 23, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
When we talk about Lindros being ungrateful or criticizing other people, we should not forget that he was not doing so alone. If his parents would have ever released him from their clutches and let him make his own decisions, he may have grown up to behave very differently. But he arrived at the draft with his ego, and his parents encouraged that behavior. Their involvement made the situation far, far worse than it ever needed to be.
I agree that what we cannot forget what Lindros did for us and this franchise nor should it ever be trivialized. I don’t want anyone to think I am completely on the anti-Lindros bandwagon, because even though he was never my favorite player I still wish that whole mess had never happened. I was broken hearted that things went down the way they did at the end, but there were many people behaving badly in that situation. Lindros deserves his fair share of the blame, but there were too many people involved to lay 100% of it on him.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 23, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Fun facts…
Malkin $9.8m (24g, 70pts)
Staal – $8.25m (23g, 58pts)
Zetterberg – $6.03m (20g, 60pts)
Hartnell – $4.2m (14g, 41pts)
Selanne – $2.65m (21g, 36pts)
But it makes perfect sense to compare those five players as if they were equals.
PS: That means Hartnell has more points per dollar of his cap hit than either Malkin or Staal, and is right in line with Zetterberg.
Here's what I don't get:
From CSNPhilly:
Holmgren said because of injuries on the Phantoms, he has no viable candidate to bring up.
The Phantoms official website lists: Krys Kolanos, Jason Ward, and David Laliberte as injured. So of the 13 healthy forwards on the Phantoms, not one of them is a “viable candidate”? Not the guy who played in 38 games last season and 10 more this season (Nodl), or the guy who played in 36 games this season (Pyorala), or the guy who played in 10 games already this season (Kalinski), or the guy who scored a goal in the playoffs last year (Ross), or any of the prospects?
None of these guys are “viable”??
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:38 PM EDT reply actions
In reality they pretty much suck equally and are not viable NHL talent that Holmgren has composed the Phantoms of, pretty bold move admitting it and all.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s exactly my point. He has no “viable candidate”, including all those guys he’s called up before (who apparently suck) and those players who are supposed to be the future of the team (who also suck).
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Shouldn’t he be fired today for actually admitting it though?
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
13 healthy forwards tells me that’s not the case. Then again, SanFilippo says Legein is “dealing with” a wrist injury.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 22, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe there was an injury to the driver in Glens Falls, which means its not viable to get any of those players to Ottawa?
And those damn airplane schedules are just to confusing for him to figure out.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 22, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
IN an offhand guess, I think Holmgren looked at the roster and saw plenty of centers and not enough wingers, so the injury he was referring to was actually Pat Maroon (who the management has had a justified hard-on for since last year). I actually argued before the season that with a full campaign in the AHL he’d be a better fit into the lineup than JVR. He’d fill the missing winger spot that the team has had all season better than anyone else, allowing the 6 centers already on the team (Richards, Briere, Giroux, Betts, Powe, Lappy) to anchor 4 balanced lines. I think Leino deserves time in the lineup, I think JVR has hit the freshman wall and is done being productive this season, I like Powe as a utility forward because he can hustle and hit, and I think the Flyers should be hoping for 6th seed in the conference if they want to advance anyway.
by penguinsfan on Mar 23, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
On a lighter note...
It was great to see Cindy get his face full of Howard’s stinky goalie glove tonight.
Damn the linesmen for rescuing her.
Loved that
Yeah, that was great to watch. Cindy probably didn’t like being called a cry baby diving loser. Truth hurts.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 22, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
But what I really liked...
But to thrown another post up here about the Pitts-Detroit game tonight, what a clinic. Detroit being Detroit. I had the sound down and wasn’t sure if Malkin was playing till I specifically watched for him. Complete shut down, that system will probably never look the same anywhere, and definitely not here.
All the moves you can make to bring in forwards, goalies or whatever, but if they aren’t playing as a TEAM it ain’t gonna matter squat. The Flyers are not making good decisions with the puck, don’t keep possession enough—when they do you can see the difference in the game, they completely overwhelm opponents. And I don’t think anyone can tell why they are so Jekyl/Hyde. Last night was horrible for the first 20 minutes (worse than the usually “we may or may not show up for 20-30 minutes”. The line juggling with no practice was not the best idea, though I understand he was trying to shake things up. When I tuned back in late in the second, I couldn’t believe how well oiled it looked—then I saw the line combos. Back to normal and it showed.
i would love to see JVR top line instead of Carcillo, love how he’s played, but see if more of a pure scorer on that line would do more damage. Put Giroux 2nd line center and see what he can do there.
JVR can’t be on the first line because he can’t handle that much ice time. Richards plays over 20 minutes a game and Gagne gets 18:30. I assume the extra two and a half for Richards are PK time. So figure they probably log about 16 minutes a game in even strength. JVR averages 12:44 TOI and he’s never played this much hockey in his life before.
Yeah, I hear you, but who would’ve thought Carcillo would have been getting top line time this year either. Not sure if it would be too much for him or not, but as everyone has been talking about not being able to get rid of him, and I can’t see us going more than a round this year unless all hell breaks loose in the next two weeks, so send him in. Sink or swim possibly, not sure if it would be good for his development or not at this point. Be interesting to see what he could do if he could put that big body to use creating some space, and having Richards on his line may help out his lack of D.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 22, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I looked this up, and Carcillo only has averaged 11:11 a game, though he also has 180 penalty minutes, which is 2:30 a game.
JVR could certainly handle an increase to 13 TOI.
nice to know, young guy, hope he could stretch that much
by JerseyDriver on Mar 23, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
JVR is exhausted. This is his first full NHL season, and he’s hit the wall. I haven’t seen him hustle once since before the Olympics. So, no, I don’t think he could handle an increase in ice time – especially at Carbomb’s expense. Sitting a hitting player like that leaves the opponent with more energy to come back at you next shift, whereas his banging and yapping sap energy from their players.
by penguinsfan on Mar 23, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
lol, start getting him in better shape for next season? He and Giroux, who I think needs a little more weight/muscle to him and he can win some more of the battles he gets into for the puck. He needs to use his body better like Forsberg did, but needs the muscle first.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 22, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
that might be true but i was more joking about how the team should overload him like our goalies….not that they are responsible for emery’s bone necrosis but they didn’t rest him enough esp. after his surgery , nor did they Leighton. when a coach overuses an athlete as they did Leighton and that player’s non-contact injury is either accidental or caused by fatigue related failure, then fault goes to the coach for gambling in such a manner in the first place.
Giroux will of course get stronger as he matures but his game is not fighting guys for pucks in the corners. We are stuck in the muck and grind mindset in this town. We can’t recognize what pure speed and skill looks like. Giroux is a play creator, a puck possession cycler and an offensive zone penetrator. Watching the Red Wings last night it was pretty clear that the Zetterberg line does not dump and out muscle the opponent. That line is not huge and Zetterberg employs his skill to penetrate the zone with speed and puck possession then creates scoring off the rush.
by M from Pdaddy on Mar 23, 2010 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
on the review of the album shark sandwich, one writer commented: “2 words: shit sandwich”
which is also a way to describe this team
TAKE THE FALL, ACT HURT, GET INDIGNANT
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Mar 23, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
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