Abandon All Hope?
by Ben Rothenberg on Mar 23, 2010 12:30 PM EDT
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PrintFor most of this season, the Flyers had relatively good luck with injuries. The number of AHLers who have had to play has been minimal, and the team's core players (except Ray Emery and Simon Gagne) missed very little action.
But now, in the most important part of the season, it all goes to hell.
As if one feel-good-story goaltender out for the season wasn't enough, Michael Leighton joined Ray Emery on the shelf for the remainder of the season. And yesterday, with no warning whatsoever, it was announced that Jeff Carter is expected to miss close to a month of play with a foot injury, one that will keep him out well into the first round of the playoffs.
In summary, the Flyers have lost their the top scorer and top two goaltenders. Never a good thing.
But by the numbers, things don't look nearly so bleak. The Flyers are currently in sixth place, and hold a four point lead over ninth-place Atlanta. According to the math, there's still a 96% chance the Flyers will make the playoffs, but with recent developments in mind it sure doesn't feel like such a sure bet right now.
We as Flyers fans aren't particularly used to being on the playoff bubble, with the 2007-08 season being the only season since 1988-89 or so in which the Flyers making the playoffs was up in the air with so few games left. Either they were way in, or way out.
In the face of such uncertainty, there can be a tendency to panic, a temptation to throw it all away. Beat writer Anthony San Filippo generated buzz recently when he asked via Twitter if Flyers fans still wanted their team to make the playoffs, a question which under almost any circumstances would be a complete no-brainer to answer in the affirmative.
But is this organization, with it's constant short-sighted drive for success, better served by failure? Remember, arguably the best moves the Flyers made as an organization in the last couple decades came during the summer of 2007, after the Flyers missed the playoffs for the first time in twelve seasons. They responded the next year with a run to the conference finals, beating two division champions in the process.
Personally, I want no part of missing the playoffs. I live in a city whose team was mired in terribleness for a decade before they became any good, and I personally want no part of any extended rebuilding. As a Flyers fan I've been spoiled by the consistency the organization's "win now at any cost" outlook has provided. Hope and dreams of going all the way are there to be had most every spring, and it's not something I want to skip this year. I wouldn't bet on the Flyers winning much in the playoffs if they make it, but I know for sure that I'd prefer that to them being left out of the show all together.
But that's just me, and my way of looking at the world. What do you think? Hash it out in the poll and comments below.
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quitting will just draw more fire from the Philly Phaithful. Got to keep playing with our heads up and just put 110% into everything that we do on the ice. Win Lose or Draw, no quitting here in on Broad Street, that would be the real failure.
Side note: I think the Flyers coaching need to hold more players accountable for their actions on the ice…I remember when Stevens was sitting players for poor performance, next season they should really continue to implement that.
Skip the Pitt, Move on down to Broad Street....
Philadelphia Flyers / Columbus Blue Jackets, 'nuff said.
missing the playoffs doest benefit us in any way as we dont have a 1st round draft pick. one way or another I think it has become clear that some major changes need to be made on this team. I’m gonna bet Carter gets shipped out this off-season. He’s entering the last year of his contract and he doesnt have a NTC. I also think getting Hartnell to waive his NTC might be a lot more feasible in the off-season.
all that being said, I wouldnt be surprised to see Carter return in time for the playoffs. whether or not he’d be effective remains to be seen.
The real question is, does Snider stick with Laviolette or does he decide to go a different route?
one way or another the Flyers are heading for an off-season of serious uncertainty. With another dissapointing season (so far atleast) and a salary cap thats shrinking, some major moves are gonna have to be made
If we trade Hartnell, we’ll resign Carter.
And I hope to God we resign Carcillo too.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Either way it goes with Carcillo, you should still buy the shirt ;)
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Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Mar 23, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
gotta love the name too...
’Che’cillo….hahaha get outta here with that.
Skip the Pitt, Move on down to Broad Street....
Philadelphia Flyers / Columbus Blue Jackets, 'nuff said.
by PhillyPhan85 on Mar 23, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
who are we really looking to get rid of in the off-season??? Who would you get rid of?
Skip the Pitt, Move on down to Broad Street....
Philadelphia Flyers / Columbus Blue Jackets, 'nuff said.
Carter or Giroux must be considered expendable because of the log jam at the center position. This is based on what offers you receive and I wouldn’t shy away from draft picks. I would not be sad if Coburn got an offer for the picks, but I think he is the least of your problems. Other than that no one on the defense. I would put it out their pending NTC nonsense that Gagne is available for picks. He holds a special place here but it is time to move on.
AND/OR
I would trade Carter to the Montreal Canadians for Plekanec, Halak and Paul Mara before or at the draft.
Are we still considering Giroux a center? I think our current problem proves we don’t have depth at center, because that depth is reliant on Briere and Giroux playing defense.
The only position on the ice Giroux should be playing is center. He has done nothing but stagnate on the wing. He needs to carry the puck through the neutral zone with that speed and skill, gain the offensive zone and distribute the puck. He is a classic playmaking center. If you don’t use him in this capacity it will be a tragedy of shakespearian proportions.
Ok. I actually didn’t know (good online feeds haven’t been as prevalent for good lately).
Still, if that leaves us with Carter-Richards-Roo-Betts…where’s the log jam?
The Centers on this team should be:
Briere
Giroux/Carter (whoever gets us the most cap space or picks goes)
Richards
Betts
From what I remember, Carter was awful on the wing. And he’s a good faceoff man.
I’m not thrilled about the idea of Briere v. any of Crosby/Malkin/Staal. Not that we have a third center (beyond Richie and Carter) that match up well against any of them, but Briere is an abortion in our zone. And at least the argument for Giroux is “playmaking center.”
Unfortunately anything shy of Lindros/Brindamour/Otto is less than Crosby/Malkin/Staal. So with that in mind you have to have what you have at the position. I would love to get rid of Briere first (based on contract) but that is just not happening and he isn’t a liability. The Red Wings showed you last night how fast, creative players can beat the Pens. Zetterberg was gaining the zone at will, like Briere and Giroux could do, and scored off the rush. They didn’t try to dump, chase and pound the zone.
With Carter’s shot and the way he plays around the circles would lend itself to him being a great winger if a guy like Giroux was gaining the zone, attracting the D and looking to set him up. Carter is a straight ahead skater, not bad, but not shifty enough to gain the zone and set up the offense.
Two players, both alike in skill and speed,
In Philadelphia, where we lay our scene,
From fractured arch break to new mutiny,
Where Carter’s blood makes Homer’s hands unclean.
From forth the farm system of this fair team,
A pair of star-cross’d centers ply their trade;
Whose blocke’d shots and passes through the seam,
With injury bury hopes for parades.
The fearful passage of their playoff hopes,
And continuance of Snider’s rage,
Which, but their season’s end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours’ traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient eyes attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Mar 23, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, I already compared the Flyers to the Montagues
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 23, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, anyone that doesn’t hope the Flyers win the cup isn’t really a fan. Do I think they will, no, but until that final buzzer sounds on their season you better believe I’ll be cheering for the Flyers to win every game.
I am offended at the question!
What are we Rangers Fans?
They want to tank the rest and pray for a better season next time.
Wheres the Honor in that
by Prometheus74 on Mar 23, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I think if the Flyers make the playoffs and win in the first round they will be in good shape, especially getting Carter back for a huge boost. I know i’m being optimistic but i’m not ready to look to next season yet.
I think that really depends on who we face in the first round. I’m all for squaring off against the Devs. They don’t scare me anymore. Marty B is no problem, he’s a fraction of what he once was.
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 23, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
As much as I know and believe that not making the playoffs will cause more of the wholesale change this team needs, I cannot root against them making them. Every team in the NHL makes the postseason, except the truly sucktacular teams. The Flyers aren’t that bad, even without Carter. They have the talent—just not the team or system—or whatever. WTF knows.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
I started the season hoping they would play so terribly that Holmgren would realize the problems he needed to fix. Didn’t happen.
In the middle of the season, I hoped they’d play poorly enough that Holmgren would cut his losses and sell at the trade deadline so we’d at least have hope for the future. Didn’t happen.
Now I’m hoping the miss the playoffs so Holmgren gets fired and someone else with a clue comes in and fixes this team.
I have no reason to want to see the Flyers suck another $200-$500 out of its season ticket holders to watch them get eliminated in the first round again. When they miss the playoffs, we’ll see prices come down, and less demand which brings down the resale market and it’ll be much more enjoyable to go to a game next season.
Mario, do you really think Holmgren’s job is in any jeopardy? I think the guy hasn’t got a clue and I want him gone, but the history of this franchise and their ridiculous loyalty tells you that even if they collapse and miss the playoffs Snider is keeping Holmgren. Lets hope not but I would be truly shocked.
I’d bet on Holmgren being fired before Laviolette. Homer has been here for four seasons as GM.
That said, I wouldn’t mind them demoting Homer to Assistant GM so he can continue to draft good players. He’s good at drafting. He’s just not good at keeping draft picks around, managing the cap, etc., etc., etc.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Well once they get Mario’s resume I’m sure Homer will be gone. I mean if only Mario could impart his wisdom on the Flyers organization they would never lose again!
I know you are busting chops which is all good. But I would not doubt for one minute that Mario actually has a better grasp on CBA rules, contract values and player equity than Holmgren any day of the week. Holmgren is not a business mind tactician. He is still doing it the old fashion way. Plugging holes while the dam is overflowing and this organization has been doing that since the Lindros era.
Nothing says “i fucked up building this team” like losing your 2nd line center and calling up a left winger to replace him.
Not to mention ten years of drafting players that don’t qualify as enough of a legitimate prospect to attract one trade to help the team at the deadline forgetting about how you blew the wad of draft picks. But really Mario do you really think Snider will pull the plug on Holmgren? Forget collapsing just based on the merit of his work.
I actually have no doubt Mario doesn’t. It’s easy to second guess and ridicule when you’re not the one who actually has to do the job. And say what you want about Holmgren, but he’s put a playoff team on the ice every year but one. A lot of them good enough to compete for a cup. How many other organiztions can say that? Mario always makes it sound so simple as to how to make this team a Stanley Cup winning team, when in reality you could make every move right and it wouldn’t make a difference because in the playoffs it’s up to the players to perform. I’m sure there is a “Mario” for every organization out there that makes winning a Stanley Cup sound so simple from behind their computer screens. When in all actually if any of us got the job we’d have this team in the shitter so fast it’d make our heads spin. There’s a reason Mario bitches here and not in some office with Snider. It’s cause he doesn’t know as much as he likes to pretend he knows.
by Pondhockey on Mar 23, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s easy to second guess and ridicule when you’re not the one who actually has to do the job.
Don’t let the fact that I’ve never second-guessed or ridiculed get in the way of your stupidity.
Manny Malhotra was a UFA when I wanted him signed. In November, I wanted the Flyers to trade for Eric Belanger. We were talking about Vokoun for Carter in January before it got offered in March. The list goes on and on.
I think you are giving Holmgren too much credit. I don’t believe he has the aptitude for the job. He is not dynamic enough to compete with the Ray Shero’s of the world. What Mario would do is of no importance to the reality that what Holmgren has actually done is failing. You say these things as if there is actually any chance any of us could have the job. We couldn’t but the guy who does is just not doing a good enough job. We have been overachieving and getting close for 35 years and that only counts in horseshoes.
The real point that pondhockey doesn’t get is that I would do the job better than Paul Holmgren. That is not to say I’d do it well. But the fact that I can sit here and predict all of these things that will go wrong (faceoffs sucking, JVR not producing after January, the defense not working, et al) and Paul Holmgren can’t is why he needs to go.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say the liklihood of them missing the playoffs all together is remote. They hold the tiebreaker on both Atlanta and Boston by virtue of wins and with only 10 games left, they would have to have a truly monumental melt down in a very weak Eastern Conference to not make the first round, even if it’s the 8th seed.
I’m not saying that they can’t achieve an epic fail, they have proven that they are more than capable of that, but I’m thinking they can at least pick up some Gary Bettman charity points and that should be just enough to assure them a first round date with Pittsburgh or Washington.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 23, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say The Flyers need 10 points in their last 10 games to make the playoffs. If they do that, they would finish with 89pts. Boston would have to go 7-4 to get to 90pts. Atlanta has to go 7-2-1.
Now lets look at the Flyers schedule:
@Ottawa (L)
Minnesota (L)
@Pittsburgh (L)
New Jersey (L)
@Islanders (W)
Montreal (L)
Detroit (L)
@Toronto (W)
@Rangers (W)
Rangers (W)
The Flyers are the better team in only four of those 10 games. I’m not sure they can even get 10 pts. If they get 8 points, Atlanta only has to go 6-3-1 in their last ten.
Atlanta has a tougher schedule:
Boston
Toronto
@Carolina
Carolina
@Toronto
@Washington
@Pittsburgh
New Jersey
@Washington
Pittsburgh
But look at the calendar. If all the better teams win, on March 30th, Atlanta will have 83pts with 5 to play, and the Flyers will have 81pts with 6 to play.
So the Flyers have to go 5-4-1 to get 90 points. That should be doable.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I can’t predict the future.
Even without Carter, this team should have its shit together enough to win five games.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
There is just no predicting with these guys. And the way this team goes about its business floundering in confusing mediocrity they have just as much of a chance at beating Pit, NJD and DET as they have losing to NYI, TOR and NYR. Would it be that surprising to go .500 the rest of the way as they have all year long.
Precisely my point. They’ll likely do “just enough” to get into the playoffs, and then get bounced.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
just like they do “just enough” to put a guy between the pipes that has the potential to be great, usually ends up mediocre but never has the aptitude or potential to actually take the team anywhere.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 23, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
they beat Minnesota or Ottawa tonight plus your W’s already noted.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 23, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
They could always load up on half-wins.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Haven’t you said elsewhere that we’re much better than Ottawa? I understand we’re a different team Carterless, but Ottawa has looked just as bad as we have lately.
And we’re better than the Wild. We’ll lose to them but we’re a better team.
Since when has Ottawa, Minnesota and Montreal been that good?
by blackandorange on Mar 23, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
like i said, if they tie Atlanta, they hold the tiebreaker, so given your scenario, the Flyers get in. Looking at Atlanta’s schedule, they could lose their last 5 games. They essentially need to win their next 5 to make it close. I don’t see them doing that.
Here’s Boston’s schedule:
@Atlanta
TB
Calgary
Buffalo
NJ
Florida
@Toronto
@Washington
Buffalo
Carolina
@Washington
That looks easier than the Thrashers. So assuming Boston gets in and 10 pts in the magic number, and assuming we only win the four games you note. I agree that it will be close, but I am sure that getting a Bettman charity point or two in a couple of those games will get us over the top.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 23, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with the assessment that wanting a team to lose means you aren’t a fan. I have been rooting for the Sixers to lose every game for a few weeks now. Losing now guarantees I high draft pick and most likely the jobs of Eddie Jordan and Ed Stefanski. Fortunately in the NBA you can have one bad season, get a solid pick and that can change the fortunes of your entire team…see Lebron, Cleveland, Melo, Denver or Howard, Orlando. Sadly it is not as simple in the NHL but the issue is still there.
The Flyers have been good but not good enough for years now, at what point does enough become enough. I bet you Clarke would still be the GM if he had not stepped down and this team had put the same results they have had under Homer. But if you could say to me that if the Flyers sucked, absolutely sucked, worst record in the league and I could get a guy like Crosby or a Malkin or Kane, would I do it? The answer would be yes and I wouldn’t look back. Sadly the Flyers did have an awful season and somehow managed to get the 2nd pick instead of the first but what can you do.
I am ok with having a losing season or two if it means that you can get the pieces in place to win for an extended period of time. Look at the Pen’s. They had 4 seasons in a row where they sucked. And now, this is their 4th straight season of success, and I bet they have 6 or so more before they suck again. Oh, and they won a cup. I would take that in a heart beat.
This team has to lose for Homer to be out. And if Homer guys, Lavvy goes, and hopefully some of the dead weight on the roster goes. This team should have been able to compete for a cup this year but clearly they can’t. At some point you have to fault the guy responsible for putting that team together.
I don't think so.
Homer has a much shorter leash than Laviolette at this point.
Last season, when people started to complain about the inconsistency, the most common reaction (although it wasn’t the ONLY one) was to say, “It’s Stevens’ job to get them ready to play. If they don’t play for him then the organization needs to find another coach they’ll play for.”
Well, guess what? They went out and got a new coach. While the team has performed better overall since the change, the inconsistency is still glaring. The organization needs to take the same approach they did when they hired Ken Hitchcock – I remember Clarkie or Snider saying something to the effect of, “Now we’ve got the right coach, so the burden of performance is on the players. If the players flounder, they’ll be the ones who are replaced and not the coach.”
Is Laviolette the perfect coach for this team? I don’t think so, but I’d like to see what he can do with a full season and a well-rounded team. If the bulk of the team has already adjusted to his system, they should have a better start to next season.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I never knew why in the aftermath of that whole Clarke shake down why Hitchcock had to go. He should have remained and I wonder what this group would have accomplished with that task master at the helm. Hitchcock might have built a better foundation under this young group that would have lasted throughout their careers. The core of this team didn’t mature on and off the ice correctly and I think we are still feeling the effects of that today.
This team stopped listening to him, because he was a task master. The players wanted someone nicer, someone that would roll with them and not go crazy on them when they did a poor job. That should have been the first indication of what this teams mentality is. But instead Hitch was fired and Stevens replaced him.
I agree with you but in order to figure out if it’s the coach or the players, the coach always has to be the one to go. Firing a coach is obviously a lot easier then overturning a roster.
It is obvious to me, and hopefully other’s that Steven’s was not completely at fault. I always thought he was a good coach, but not the right coach for this team. Firing him and hiring Lavvy only further proved that. I don’t know that there is a right coach for this team, because I don’t think this is the right team for this city.
Maybe in some places you can get away with inconsistency and mediocrity. But I always believed Philly was one of the places that demanded a winner. But the fans demanding it and the owner demanding it are two different things. I appreciate an owner having loyalty and I don’t think owners should cave to fans demands when they want a coach gone. The results should speak for themselves and right now the results are not good.
At this point it’s obvious that this team needs to be changed but in order for that to happen the guy responsible for putting them together has to go. I am fine with a new team and Lavvy as the coach…for a year. And if after that year he does not get that team in line then he will be gone. New GM’s always want to bring in their guy.
I was never a real Stevens’ fan from the get-go. I could never get past the team’s inability to execute a simple break out which led to so many of their problems in the neutral zone and furthermore the offensive zone. For being a defensive minded coach not taking care of the transition in your own end of the ice does not enable solid puck support or control. That was just my pet peeve and they did get to an ECF so obviously he was successful.
I agree with you but in order to figure out if it’s the coach or the players, the coach always has to be the one to go. Firing a coach is obviously a lot easier then overturning a roster.
Oh, absolutely. I understand why the Flyers fired Stevens. It was conventional NHL wisdom to do so. He coached here for just over three seasons’ worth of games and the team had clearly regressed even though the talent level had gone up. It was a tough decision to make, but clearly a necessary one.
Sometimes, new coaches and their systems take a while to get into effect. We saw that this year, where the team floundered for half of a month before finding their game. And I remember Laviolette talking about becoming Carolina’s coach during the middle of 2003-04. He said something to the effect that “It took a while for the system to take hold but we were tough to play against for the last 20 games of the season.” Then, the following year they won the Cup. I think the organization will hedge their bets that the pattern holds and the Flyers have a legitimate shot to win it all next year.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Maybe. I am not a huge Lavvy fan but I am willing to give him a chance next year unless someone clearly better becomes available. At this point my issues are, in this order:
Homer
Team
Coach.
Homer needs to go, then we see what a new GM can do. Maybe he can salvage what he has. Pretty sure that will be his only option. I doubt Snider will go for a full rebuild.
My suspicion is, even if this team fails pretty tremendously this year, the Flyers give Homer a chance to fix it. No one seems to be able to account for this team is so inconsistent. Mismanagement of the capp/bad contracts aside, Homer built a team that should be talented enough to win this year. Everyone around here knows it isn’t working, but no one has given a solid reason why these players are so streaky. And as no one could have known that this combination of players would produce an intangible like “streakiness,” I don’t see a problem with Homer being allowed to blow this team up, when the time comes. It seems that he can at least spot young talent, after all…
I agree, he can spot talent, but he can’t put a pro roster together. He needs to be put in a position where he can succeed. Being a GM is not that position. IMO.
It would have been nice if he spotted some goaltending talent along the 12 year road.
Just Call Me "M"!
Agreed. But the one time you want the guy with the eye at GM is when you’re selling off parts. Don’t let him rebuild the team; let him clear the ruins and set the foundation.
I was waiting for the Flyers post-game post to go up Sunday night to talk about coaching. Then Carter got hurt and its pointless. However, I wanted Holmgren on Monday morning to five Laviolette and bring in Hitchcock behind the bench. Strip the system to basic defensive trap and counter-attack. With the four days off next week, it was feasible.
It is not feasible, logical or practical to fire Lavy and bring in Hitch or anyone with 10 games left. Be reasonable here. I am fine with getting rid of Lavvy after the year is over and bringing back Hitch, actually I would prefer it over Lavvy being back next year. But making that move now would make no sense.
That only works in New Jersey when anything less than winning a cup was acceptable.
Just Call Me "M"!
Since when is anything less than a Cup acceptable in Voorhees?
This team isn’t working and its going to fail.
Better to go out taking a swing than watch them whimper away.
MarioD, gunslinger! I’m down with you brother. why accept mediocrity regardless of how it looks to fire two coaches in one year. I am sparing no ones feelings.
Just Call Me "M"!
by MJDII on Mar 23, 2010 6:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m like the clarkie of posters, carve you up if that’s what I gotta do.
Just Call Me "M"!
by MJDII on Mar 23, 2010 6:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why Hitch? That kind of stuff doesn’t succeed anymore. Post-lockout there hasn’t been a single trap team to make it to the Cup, and most of them have struggled to even make the playoffs. PHI has way too much talent to waste it in a trap. Lemaire and Hitch are relics of the previous era. PHI could do a lot better than Hitch (and a lot worse than Lavs).
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Because the Flyers need a system that protects their goaltender, not exposes him. And the best way to do that in two weeks is to bring in Hitch with a simple trap.
You can play defense and protect your goalie without trapping. Trapping is a way to die in the current NHL. Hitch and Lemaire had middling (if that) success trying to use the trap with the rule changes. A team like DET can play D, but also attack and use their skating skill. That’s a much better model for PHI, especially when you start looking at the personnel (deep down the middle, check; two strong D pairs, check; plenty of versatile players that can switch roles relatively easily, check). IMO you don’t trap unless you are so bad that you need to do it to keep the games respectable. PHI ain’t that. I’m sure there’s a wide range of opinions on the matter, but I think it’s utterly unfair to blame the Flyers’ performance this year on the goaltending. It hasn’t been great, but it hasn’t been Vesa Toskala either.
Look at Team Canada. They dominated the first half of the gold medal game and went up 2-0. Then they went to a trap. (Shocking considering the coaching staff, I’m sure.) They sat back and Team USA was able to attack and attack until they finally tied the game.
NJD went from Sutter’s aggressive forecheck back to Lemaire. They had Brodeur all year. So they must be better right? Nope. They won’t reach the same number of points as they got last year. GMPH has made enough bad decisions, bringing in an out-dated system isn’t going to be the solution.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
1) Lemaire and Hitch were both coaching teams millions of dollars under the cap every year. That had more to do with their success than a system.
2) The Devils are a much better team this season than they were last year.
NSH is under the cap by millions every year, don’t trap, and have had more success than Hitch or Lemaire had post-lockout. I’m not buying the budget excuse. There are lots of teams on a budget and many of them find ways to compete without a trap.
How are you going to summarily say NJD is “much better” than last year given the evidence against that statement? NJD has 88 points now, a pace for 102 points (rounding up). They had 106 last year. NJD scores 2.66 goals per game this year, down from 2.98 last year. NJD allows only 2.38 goals per game this year, down from 2.55 last year. They gave up more in decreased goals for than they gained in decreased goals against. By goal differential, by points, by seeding, they were better last year. And the East is a worse conference this year, and NJD has Brodeur for the full year.
But I’m sure you’re right anyway.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Exactly. He’s one of the best of all time. He should more than make up for Martin’s absence. (Though Team USA sure as hell could have used him). They also added Kovalchuk this year.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I totally missed the best part of this post, holding up the Nashville Predators as the success story of small market hockey. A team that went bankrupt.
You started this saying “no team playing a trap has made the Cup finals in the New NHL” then you hold up a franchise (Nashville) that’s never won a playoff series to prove your point.
Good job by you!
NSH has been a playoff team virtually every year while MIN has not and CBJ needed a white hot goalie to carry them. Financial success and on ice success are different. OTT almost went bankrupt during the stretch when they were one of the highest scoring and most successful (regular season) teams in the league.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
That is pretty bold but I am a Hitch fan so I second that motion. I have not hated Laviolette because at least it seems he goes into a game with a plan but he hasn’t totally broken this philly of its bad habits that routed themselves in the Stevens’ era. They might just need a total prick to just beat them down until they get the basics of the game figured out.
Just Call Me "M"!
I was never about that but the more I see of Richards and he just looks lost with the title in his hands. He might just not be the guy we thought he was, not that he isn’t a worthy player but no ‘that guy’.
Just Call Me "M"!
This might be sorta off topic but its been something I have been thinking about all season
At first, I was pretty alarmed by this article and the kind of comments that would be generated in response. I don’t want Flyers fans to just give up on this team (not that I think anyone is). I just think that these are the kind of “trials and tribulations” that cause two responses from fans. The first is, to give up hope and bail on the Flyers and the second is sticking with them through the disappointing points in Flyers history, no matter what. Don’t forget our beef with Capitals and Penguins fans: they are only around when times are good.
Considering how consistently solid the Flyers have been in the last decade or so, we are not accustomed to following a team that isn’t a lock for the playoffs, as Ben said. Because of that, we have become noticeably negative about this Flyers team. And, why not? They are the definition of inconsistent and underachieving.
But, I don’t think things are hopeless. I just think that we are all super frustrated and that is an important distinction that needs to be made. There is a difference in being hopeless and being frustrated. We have been “spoiled” with a winning franchise, and I think to some people, our complaints and sarcasm, make us look like that brat in the toy store that has a temper tantrum when his mom says no to buying him a candy bar. We are so used to getting what we want — a winning team — that when the Flyers are inconsistent and mediocre, we pitch a fit and bitch and complain. We expect excellence and don’t respond well when the Flyers fall short of that. That’s a good thing. I think Ed Snider shares that same feeling . . .
I think this seasons specific situation is even more difficult for us to handle. Why? Well, the Flyers will probably make the playoffs but, realistically, won’t go too far. They are not in a position where overhauling the team completely would not be an advisable reaction but must do something somewhat drastic because things just aren’t working. Unfortunately its not cut and dry. The Flyers are neither a true Stanley Cup contender nor cellar dwellers. So, with no easy solution, I know for me, it hard to look ahead and see the that the Flyers probably won’t win the Cup and, to add salt to the wound, are restricted in the options they have to make this team into a Cup contender.
I guess, I just wanna put this all this in perspective and encourage everyone to stay frustrated with this team but not to lose all hope. When the Flyers return to being the one of the premier teams in this league, we stuck around providing more evidence for why we are the best fans in hockey.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
I think the thing you’re not allowing for is the fact that in June of 2009, Holmgren made a move that very clearly sacrificed the long-term health of this franchise in order to succeed this season.
It was a trade that was going to be evaluated after we saw if the Flyers won a Cup this season. Paul Holmgren set those expectations.
In 2007-08 when they were in a similar position at this time in the season, I don’t think many people wanted to blow up the team or fire the coach or whatever. Because that was where the franchise was in its life cycle.
This team is not where it is supposed to be at this point in time. When the Flyers were tanking in the early 90s, the fans stuck by the team as it was being rebuilt. Thats the difference between this fanbase and the frauds in Pittsburgh and Washington.
Ya, I think you are right. I certainly agree that Holmgren needs to go. He is still being evaluated for the good things he did after that miserable season in 2007. Since then, he has done a poor job overall and needs to go. Totally agree with you on that.
I don’t want to see the Flyers miss the Playoffs but maybe that would be the best things for this team. I have been considering this all season. At this point, its clear that they are not good enough to do anything significant. They need change. Getting Holmgren would be the first step. Any ideas of who would be a good GM to bring in?
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 23, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He is still being evaluated for the good things he did after that miserable season in 2007.
I’m sure around here I’m the minority, but I think the “rebuild” after 2007 is overrated. PHI was a badly under-performing team that year and had some injury problems. They weren’t a horrid team without talent. Holmgren didn’t realize what he had with Richards and Carter in that he didn’t know they’d be ready to contribute so soon. He did fleece Don Waddell to add Coburn, but c’mon how hard is that? The trade with NSH was a solid trade, but the NMC with Hartnell has been painful down the line. He signed Briere to a huge deal and a NMC which hurts now as well (and goes back to not knowing what he had with Carter/Richards). The results were great, but I just don’t think it really qualifies as a “rebuild” and I definitely don’t think Holmgren was a genius carrying it out.
And then the Pronger trade and extension, which was at best good for this year, and will be a disaster going forward.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
No I don’t think you are the minority. They were good moves that you can’t fault Holmgren for at the time (except those gosh darn NTC & NMC). But, I do think that we are, only now, seeing how overrated those moves were. They haven’t been enough and Holmgren has dug himself into a hole that is now too deep to pull himself out . . .
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 23, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Really, without the NMCs it would have been fine. But it’s not just that he gave NMCs, it’s that he gave them to people that shouldn’t get them. Those guys aren’t core players. If you wanted to move a guy at the deadline to make space for a goalie, who would you move? Briere, Hartnell, Gagne. But the only guy you could move is Carter! And there is no way that makes sense. (Obviously I’m operating under the assumption that Richards is hands-off.) So his trade options were Carter and a bunch of spare parts. That’s not gonna get it done on deadline day. It’ll be interesting to see how ugly this Pronger thing gets over the next few years.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Stop trying to discuss things when you don’t know what you are talking about.
First off, Holmgren inherited Gagne’s contract, he was not the GM when Gagne signed it.
Second, Simon Gagne is a core franchise player. At the time he signed that contract, he had just represented Canada in the Olympics, and scored 47 goals, and was 26 years old.
Third, NTCs have nothing to do with being the core of a franchise.
Now go back to your own site so those of us who actually know something about the Flyers can talk about them, rather than having to correct your mistakes.
First off, I damn well know what I’m talking about.
Second, I never attributed Gagne’s NMC to GMPH, I just included him in my list of guys that PHI would have wanted to trade but couldn’t. He fits perfectly there.
I don’t think it’s wise to give NMCs to non-core players, and I stand by that. There are plenty of teams that give them out to guys that aren’t in their core, but those examples generally prove the wisdom of my position. The one exception to this would be when you can sign a guy for below-market value by giving him an NMC. I don’t think that applies to Briere or Hartnell.
When Ben, Geoff, or Travis want me to leave, they can tell me to. I wasn’t even addressing you in this particular instance. Stop being so insecure.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Oh thats just Mario being Mario, as you well know, haha. I think you are definitely right in that teams shouldn’t give “non-core” players NMC. I could understand giving a Briere a NMC because he was supposed to be a “core” player who has done well but certainly hasn’t come close to producing what was expected of him and thus does not deserve a NTC. Boston in a similar situation with Tim Thomas.
And just for reference, here is a list of all the players that have No-Trade Clauses in 2010.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Mar 23, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
First off, I damn well know what I’m talking about.
No, you clearly don’t since you think Paul Holmgren signed Simon Gagne.
Here’s an idea, go back to your team’s board and work on explaining away the ever-increasing ties between the Caps and steroids.
Here’s an idea, go back to your team’s board and work on explaining away the ever-increasing ties between the Caps and steroids.
That argument is about as flimsy as yours, duders.
Wayne Gretzky had it wrong: 100% of the shots Gary Roberts doesn't take DO go in.
by Hooks Orpik on Mar 23, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
We arent a fan base that gives up on the flyers, but we have a semblance of intelligence and we know when this team isnt clickin’… and we know when players aint gettin it done, and if i was to give up on the flyers, it would be only for the players – not the team…
9 games left, that’s 18 points… 4 point spread away from the trashers who just got smoked 4-0 by boston… if we get at least 8 points that forces the trashers to win 6 of 9 just to tie… we’re in probably, but it aint gonna be pretty after that, unless something changes.
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