VIDEO REVIEW: Anton Volchenkov's Dirty Hit on Simon Gagne
by Travis Hughes on Mar 24, 2010 1:42 AM EDT
in Philadelphia Flyers Commentary
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Anton Volchenkov's hit on Simon Gagne in the third period on Tuesday night may not have even been the most egregious non-call of the night. For that, you can look to a waived off Flyers goal late in the third and a blatant elbow to by Volchenkov to the face of Dan Carcillo earlier in the game could even get some votes as well.
But the non-call on Gagne was the most dangerous and the most shocking of the night at Scotiabank Place. The goal that should've been waived off on the play and the lack of any sort of penalty for Volchenkov's hit completely turned the tide in this game.
The Ottawa commentator in the clip above calls it a 'good, solid hit', using the defense that Gagne knew Volchenkov was coming. It's safe to say that we, uh, don't agree.
- It's a blindside hit. The argument the commentator uses in the clip is that Gagne turned away as the hit was delivered. It's common defense in these situations, but in this particular instance, it's just not correct. Volchenkov hits Gagne blind the entire way. Simon is looking down at the puck, and as he plays it up the boards, he turns toward them to follow his pass. Using the 'he looked away' defense implies that Gagne did it on purpose to draw a penalty. Couldn't be further from the truth. Unless he has a really well-placed mirror on that puck, there's no way he knew Volchenkov was coming.
- It's a hit from behind. The same defense -- that he turned away on purpose -- is the argument from the other side on this one as well. Again, though, it's just not accurate. Gagne doesn't see Volchenkov, and you can kind of see from the video that Volchenkov's trajectory begins from behind Gagne's position. Even though Gagne turned to the boards, it doesn't change the fact that it's a hit from behind. It's just a difference between a hit from behind into the open-ice near the boards or one into the boards.
- It's boarding. Boarding calls are all at the referee's discretion, but after the argument I made above, it's difficult to say that there should be no boarding call on this play. At the very least it should have been a minor penalty, but the only true difference between this play and the Alex Ovechkin hit on Brian Campbell is that Campbell was seriously injured. It's by sheer luck that Gagne didn't suffer a similar fate.
- It's charging. The rules define charging as "the actions of a player or goalkeeper who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A 'charge' may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice." So it doesn't matter where Volchenkov hit Gagne -- whether it be from behind, from the front, from the side, from the top, from the bottom, from the crowd. It doesn't matter. He took several strides across the ice, traveling a distance, and violently checked Gagne. He didn't glide into the guy. He made several strides and skated right into him while delivering the hit. There are no bones about this: it's charging.
The officials clearly missed this all tonight. Luckily, Gagne was fine, and that was clearly evident a few seconds later as he pummeled Volchenkov into the ice. Clearly that's a penalty or two... but um, 19 minutes worth? While Volchenkov only gets two for roughing? That's the problem with the NHL right there, folks. In a nutshell.
Use the argument that the ref didn't see the play, perhaps, but that's BS too. The puck was still fairly close, and if one official isn't looking there then they're clearly out of position.
There's no justice on the initial play, so the player either gets hurt or takes things into his own hands. When he does that, he gets the book thrown at him. It's a lose-lose situation for the victim, and the officials sit back and let it happen. It's an absolute joke.
There's no Matt Cooke excuse here. There are at least three current rules on the books that say Volchenkov could've been thrown out of the game for what he did to Gagne, and none of them were implemented. It's an utter travesty, and even if Volchenkov gets suspended by the league come Wednesday or Thursday, it doesn't matter. This play was a turning point in the game tonight, a game which was absolutely gigantic in the standings for both teams.
If this continual parade of bullshit continues, the NHL is going to lose a lot of fans. That's both a guarantee and a damned shame, really. You can't blame people though. It's just an utterly ridiculous display every single night.
But you know what? At least Gagne had the cojones to stand up for himself. People who aren't blind with their hatred of the Flyers will certainly appreciate that, so good on him. And good on Mike Richards and Carcillo for stepping up to the plate as well, even though their actions on the play probably helped Ottawa score a goal. At that point, it just doesn't matter. The Flyers may have lost the game on Tuesday night, but they at least went down with some honor.
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The video over on the NHL.com sidebar actually shows the hit now, as well as the fight afterwards, with the Philadelphia announcer’s commentary. Also has a terrific still shot of that puck clearly across the line on the no goal call.
So glad I missed this game. Probably would have put something through my TV screen.
what does this shot more justice is cycling two the previous and next 3 frames. puck was clearly in.
and thanks for the awesome screengrab.
am still furious that the player put his hand on the puck and swept it out of the net without getting called.
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
What is the ruling to get rid of a commissioner. Does Bettman need to step down, or can the owners fire him. I have no idea how he can hold his job, after a lockout, all the mess with Phoenix and the other non-profit organizations called souther teams, and now his legion of doom team that really F**ked up the way players are delt with.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
But that’s still a fairly low success rate.
I’m not completely against hockey in the southern states, I don’t think it absolutely had to turn out the way it did. But too many teams moved to the southern part of the country way too fast. You can’t just take the league and stretch it out that drastically in the span of what, 10 years? When they doubled the size of the league in the 1967 expansion, one of those teams was out of their original market within 10 years, and they were trying to get out far earlier. Financial success was troublesome in more than one market, and while I wasn’t alive, I doubt it was a good situation even then to have multiple teams in financial trouble. This time, they needed to start with one or two southern markets and see how they did for a while (you know, like at least 5 years instead of 2), before deciding it was worth moving more teams down there.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, not to jump up and down on Florida, but what teams do they actually support? Not the Panthers, Lightning, Rays, or Marlins. I don’t know enough about the Heat, Magic, Jaguars, or Dolphins, but I’m imagining only the Dolphins have a strong fanbase.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
The Magic get a draw but the Heat, Dolphins and Jag’s do not. The Jag’s get almost no draw at all and there is talk of them moving to another city.
The Heat draw – they’re #15 in the NBA. Orlando’s #17. The difference is that Miami’s at 90% capacity, Orlando’s at 100% because the current arena here is undersized (the new arena opens next year).
Miami was #19 in NFL attendance, which isn’t great, but isn’t bad for a mediocre team in a 23-year-old stadium. Jacksonville was 30th, barely edging out Detroit and Oakland. That is a bad location – Jax isn’t a big city, it’s low-density, and there’s nothing else nearby to draw from (unlike the northeast, where the next city’s not far away).
In MLB, Tampa was #23 and Florida #29, ahead of only Oakland. Again, Florida is a horrid stadium (teams down here need domes because the weather is so miserable for watching baseball). They also have a cheapass owner that trades players before having to pay them real money, which prevents fan loyalty from developing. Tampa’s stadium is at least a dome, but it also has the worst sightlines, and it’s in a suburb – you might as well stick the Phillies in Warminster and expect a huge draw.
For NHL, the Lightning are #20 and the Panthers #23 in attendance. Both draw better than Colorado or the Islanders. The Lightning also outdraw the Devils.
Given the size of the state, the fact that each city is essentially isolated from the others, and the fact that most residents are from out-of-state, and have pre-existing loyalties, Florida does decently well as far as attendance.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Oh, I wasn’t saying all of the current markets could work, sorry if I wasn’t clear. Florida is ridiculously bad in that aspect. I kind of know a former Marlins player and know a lot more behind the scenes stuff that he’s passed along, so I can definitely understand what you mean by that.
I just meant I’m not entirely against the idea of having any markets below the Mason Dixon Line or something…. Yeah, some of the current ones may not have been good choices, but the entire concept did not have to fail in an epic fashion. But moving so many down there so fast was a recipe for disaster.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I knew what you meant. I just singled out Florida because I don’t know why any league thinks it’s a great idea to move two teams into the state.
From everything I know, teams like the Sharks, Stars, Predators, and Hurricanes have fantastic fan bases. But you’re right to say that they moved south too often, too quickly.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Dallas is the model for growing a team in a non-traditional market. ANA has done a pretty solid job as well, but you could argue they are piggybacking off of the initial steps taken by LAK/Wayne Gretzky.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Anaheim has worse attendance than Tampa or Florida. If they’re solid, the Peninsular teams are stellar.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
This year or in general? I thought they were doing pretty well the last few years. I went to a WCF game @ ANA the year they won the Cup and it was a pretty good atmosphere, but that could have been because of the playoff push.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I was just looking at this year. Here are rankings going a few years back
2006: Lightning #2, Panthers #19, Ducks #24
2007: Lightning #3, Ducks #20, Panthers #22
2008: Lightning #8, Ducks #15, Panthers #25
2009: Ducks #17, Lightning #21, Panthers #24
2010: Lightning #20, Panthers #23, Ducks #24
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Interesting. I guess they weren’t as good as I thought. I stand corrected.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I think Anaheim has a very devoted core, but also quite a few casual fans. That said, I think that’s a syndrome of any young franchise. A kid born the year the Ducks started is only 16 or 17 now, so they don’t have the from-birth fanbase of Detroit or Philadelphia. I think in five or six more years, if the expansion teams are decent, they’ll start drawing more of a fanbase, as the kids that grew up hearing about Ducks hockey or Thrashers hockey will be establishing their careers and have the money to start attending sporting events. Yes, the Bucs/Dolphins/Hawks/Angels will still draw a lot of them, but those kids should be the core nucleus of a fanbase for the future. As odd as it sounds in our speed-crazed, Internet-driven world, for things like sports it takes time to establish a firm foundation. Constantly moving franchises around will prevent them from becoming anything worthwhile. The Stars’ attendance has increased by 12% during their time in Dallas, from around 16,000 their first four years to around 18,000 in recent years. Tampa has gone from 10,000 their first year to 16,000 last year, which was a decline from 19,000 three years ago. The fanbase is there, it’s just not solid yet.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
Very good points. I’m also considering other factors like youth hockey, though. DAL is the model because of how heavily they invested in youth hockey right from the starts. You make the kids fans and you force the parents to watch the game at least casually. Hockey is growing in California by leaps and bounds and I don’t think we’re that far from the day where Team USA’s WJC team has more California born players than Massachusetts born players.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
The North Stars had some pieces but they weren’t a powerhouse I don’t think. And it was still Dallas, a city with basically no hockey exposure or history. I’m inclined to give most of the credit to the ownership group for laying out the money they did and pursuing the strategy they did.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Youth hockey’s just starting to catch on in Florida. The FAHL has ten organizations in South Florida that have various teamns from Mites to U18, though the upper ends are sparse (only four of the organizations have Midget U16, though a fifth is supposed to be added next season). In Central Florida, there’s the CFHL, which has six teams at the Midget level, but more when you get down to the Squirts. Up in Jacksonville there’s the NFHA, which I’m not familiar with. There are also individual rink leagues, such as RDV and Glacier (in Orlando and Lighthouse Point, respectively). There’s a movement towards unifying the leagues under the State Wide Hockey League, which I would guess has about 30% of the teams from the various regional leagues, plus a couple independents. It’s not much, but it’s a start.
"When you make your final stand
I'll be right there
I'll never leave
And all I ask of you is
Believe"
this year’s numbers have actually dropped due to the recession. California has had about 14 months of double digit unemployment in all counties surrounding Orange County, and a number of fans drive in to attend the games. The Anaheim TV numbers are up some ridiculous percentage this year because fans are being forced to stay home.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Mar 24, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
if not, there’s a chance the ducks could have climbed higher in the post-lockout attendance, as your numbers show they were until last year.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Mar 24, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
And via friends that live in Tampa, I can say from their experience that the city has learned to sort of care about the Bucs, but the Rays and Lightning basically aren’t even talked about unless they’re having some sort of truly exceptional season. Just doing good isn’t enough, it has to be like crazy good for them to get attention, according to what they tell me.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The bucs have a rabid fan base again, mostly because of winning the SB. As a Bucs fan, it’s hard to get tickets to Raymond James. Ten years ago, you could score good seats easily.
I’ll be interested to see how they maintain a fanbase in the process of a rebuild.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 24, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Dolphins have been better since they actually put a “gadget” team on the field. However, every game I’ve been too, has been to a big extent largely dominated by the opposing fanbase.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 24, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
My favorite part of the game...
After Richie and Danny stepped up to Volchankov, after the goal, after Gags charges at Volchankov something really neat happens. My three favorite flyers: Richie, Carcillo, and Pronger all make a wall around Gags and Volchankov. It was neat the way that our actual captain, our veteran leadership presence, and our “bad guy- goon” all teamed up to be a super wall to protect their frustrated sniper. Good for them. I cant wait to get a shot at these guys next year. Although I guess Gags beatdown of the other guy (that is funny to say.. hahah) might have settled the score in the retaliation department. However, Volchankov didn’t pay back for the Carcillo hit yet. I’d love to see the Car Bomb get an opportunity to be set off.
I still believe. (Devils get 2nd, we get 7th) I like that matchup.
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 24, 2010 2:21 AM EDT reply actions
Good point about the way they protected Gagne to give him space to fight his own battle. I didn’t notice that on the first watch, because I think I was just too much in shock about Gags actually throwing punches. His only other fight I remember was more like a wrestling match, sort of grappling and a headlock….
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
He got some shots in there too. I wonder if he would have done it if he were the winger on a Giroux/van Reimsdyk line with out Pronger on the ice. No one in their right mind would want to step up to 13/18/20.
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 24, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta love this quote
“I like to play physical, but I like to play clean physical,” Volchenkov said. “Sometimes maybe dirty, but that’s hockey.”
Yeah, cause smashing someone’s face into the boards is “hockey”, apparently.
At least according to the referees, anyway.
by StarbladeMKIII on Mar 24, 2010 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Never go full retard...
Tom Hanks… Looked retarded, acted retarded, played ping pong… not retarded.
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 24, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s also not speaking his native language so I’d cut him a little slack if his language was imprecise. That’s basically what every single player says so I wouldn’t make too much of it.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I heard carbomb went off postgame? Ne links to that interview neone?
by MadmanSamCarcillo on Mar 24, 2010 7:37 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
it was on the game forum last night. I believe it was WIP that did the interview. I too would LOVE to hear it.
“you know how the league treats the Flyers, everytime the get a chance to screw us, they do” – Carcillo post game
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
I heard it live. My love for that man grows higher everyday
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
on the csn replay last night the camera clearly shows Two refs both watching the hit and granted i know one was a linesmen but still.
Linesmen are allowed to tell referees about major penalties that they see. They cannot call minors but if they see majors like that they are supposed to tell the referees what they see.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
In other words, there was no excuse for that not being called.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Pretty much.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Mar 24, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Watch it again, as the play is moving with the Flyers before the hit, you will see the other REF on the far side by the blue line, looks as if his head is following the play, and Gagne has just played the puck, so as far as I can tell, both of them are looking in that general area. As I stated last night, I’m embarrassed for McCreary. And I’m so glad all the Flyers spoke out, hopefully Snider will cover fines if they come.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 25, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I have to agree here that the League is losing face with this kind of nonsense. I watch as much hockey as I can (any team, almost any time). There are some very poorly called games all around. Penalties are not called consistently, which is leading to the “headhunting”. If the league won’t be held accountable, why should the players?
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
Bottom line, it is that the players that need to realize that it’s their brains they are damaging…in the end their the ones who at 60 might not remember their grandchildren’s names, not the refs., the owners or the fans. That’s not to say the league shouldn’t do anything….maybe they should punish the team for serious transgressions like your team’s best player can’t play for x number of games, then the 2nd best player and down thru the top six. And on top of that you get fined as well. Nah…that would just create evenmore controversy and guilt by assosiciation is pretty draconian. How about mandatory community service in a VA hospitals so they could see the irreparable brain damage on soldiers concussed by IED shockwaves….because hockey is so important that you don’t think twice about imparting 200 lbs of body mass at someone’s heads at speeds up to 30 mph.
Get rid of the instigator penalty. Things will get much cleaner.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Mar 24, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
For those who haven’t noticed, Volchenkov got the 2nd star of the night with a solid 0 pts and 1 sog. Apparently he’s getting more praise for his dirty play.
That was the sickest part of the whole thing. A real disgrace to the whole league, between the muffed goal, the multiple missed calls, and the over-zealous penalization of Gagne. I am appalled.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 24, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
He also got a “Sen’s hero” mention in their post game wrap up. Just for the record, he wasn’t penilized for his hit on Carcillo. The penalty that play came on a hook on Gags. Lost in the paly was the great pass from Carcillo.
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 24, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Sens Hero (selected by Ryan, not myself) was for his shot blocking and strong defensive work, not for being a dirty player. We wouldn’t give someone a star to gloat for them getting away with a penalty.
He’s a defensive defenseman, they can deserve top three stars without getting a point if they do what is required of them (shut the other team down). I personally probably wouldn’t have given it to him, but he made huge plays that helped his team win.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
About the Refs not seeing the call, if you look at 1:08 in the video clip, both the linesman and the main official are looking at the hit with unobstructed views. Maybe Gagne should have faked an injury to get a damn penalty called. The NHL sucks these days.
I don’t want Gagne diving though, I’m sorry. I don’t like it when other teams do it and I don’t want to see our guys do it no matter how justified. If Gags really gets hurt that’s one thing, but he’s too good of a player to tarnish himself with a dive.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but we did have a master in Upshall a couple years ago. Love the guy, but man did he love to whip his head back to draw a penalty.
Yeah, but at the time Upshall wasn’t a veteran pulling that crap either, this is Gagne we’re talking about. Besides, I got pissy with Upshall a few times over it too. It’s just one of the things that irks me, but it doesn’t bother everybody to the same degree.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I was watching this game with a Devils fan, and even he was screaming at the TV calling the entire sequence bullshit. the Refs completely dropped the ball on this one. How do you give Ottawa a goal and 7 minutes of powerplay time when Gagne is the one that gets decked from behind. There is absolutely no argument that can be made on Volchenkov’s part. None whatsoever. Gagne obviously deserved to go to the box for going apeshit, but I highly doubt he would have done that if the proper call was intiialy made.
and the no-goal? whats that like the 4th goal weve scored this year that Toronto has refused to give us on the grounds of this “conclusive evidence” bullshit. I understand the conclusive evidence rule but it needs to be changed for situations like this where it is clear the puck is in the net. The NFL screwed the Eagles in the same way in the first Dallas game when they wouldnt give Donovoan the 1st on the 4th down QB sneak because of a lack of “conclusive evidence” even though it was clear he made the first by a full yard.
I hate blaming the refs and passing around conspiracy theories, and who knows what the final outcome of the game would have been. However in this game the refs gave the Senators a goal they shouldnt have given them, and took a goal away from the Flyers. Not only that, they gave the senators 7 minutes of powerplay time that they likely would not have gotten if the correct call was made. Thats 7 minutes in the 3rd period of a crucial game that the FLyers more or less couldn’t focus on trying to score. bullshit.
Here’s the other thing…how long has Gagne been in the league, what about ten years one of which he missed because of a concussion. In fact he’s had 3 concussions and I’m sure anyone whose been around the league knows his injury history as he’s an upper eschelon player. So why would he take a dive by boarding himself head first? That’s why he went ape shit and right fully so.
I didn’t see this in the game last night, I had switched channels, but this video that Travis posted makes me feel better about this whole thing from a Flyers stand point.
- Both Carcillo and Richards, who after the game said he didn’t really see the hit, go after Volchenkov and try to get him to engage in a fight, defending their teammate. Sure they don’t actually start the fight or do what Gagne did but I’ll chalk that up to restraint on Carcillo’s part and ignorance to the hit on Richie’s.
- Gagne is the man in this whole situation. He stands up for himself, and what is right in this case, takes matters into his own hands and isn’t afraid to make a stand. This, I don’t think, has ever been seen from Gagne before. He’s my favorite player and this just makes me love him that much more. The only thing that would have been better is if he got an actual punch in on Volchenkov. It doesn’t look like he really landed any good ones.
- There is really nothing that Carle could have done to prevent the goal, he tried to cover two men in the crease basically, not going to fault him for playing a pretty good 4-on-2 defense.
- Wont fault Boosh either because a) its a 4-on-2 and 2) he’s said that he was concerned for Gagne and thought there’d be a penalty called. After the game he was visibly pissed. Usually Boosh is a happy-go-lucky looking guy but you could see on his post game interview with Coatsey that he was grinding his teeth and had a furrow in his brow.
- Lastly they killed off the penalties and thus vindicated Gagne’s actions. Too bad that momentum didn’t turn into a goal. (Oh wait, it did later.)
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 24, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions
Good points. I wouldn’t dare blame Boosh either. I only saw the angle from above and behind the net, but it looked like he made the first stop and stopped the first one or maybe two rebounds before they got it in. He made a good effort to try to keep that goal out, but he was very clearly outnumbered there.
I can’t bring myself to completely blame Carbomb or Richie either, while they did allow the rush, they shouldn’t ignore Gags and there should have been a whistle making it a non-issue, so there’s good points and bad points there. I can’t hang them up on just the bad, because if they had only thought about the rush when they were so close to where Gags was down (albeing temporarily) I’d probably be calling them out for ignoring the hit completely.
by DragonGirl0583 on Mar 24, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
While we’d never say it’s time to look forward to next year, Philly should note that Volchenkov is an unrestricted free agent; because last night was textbook Flyers hockey from the Ottawa defenseman, or because Paul Holmgren can sign him, tie him to the goal posts and let Simon Gagne get his comeuppance in training camp.
I would not mind if the Flyers got Volchenkov. Whether you like what he did last night or not, he is a good hockey player.
Last night was all on the refs, though. They have to look at what is a 5-minute major boarding penalty and then actually show some competence and blow the whistle and hand Volchenkov the deserved 5-minute major for boarding.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor".
I agree, but do we really have the room to add him and a legit goalie?
by SwimminDave on Mar 24, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think we have between 8-9 million maybe more available next season. With not that many players to resign no key players for sure.
up front
Carcillo RFA
Asham and Powe UFA
blueline
Coburn and Parent RFA
Karjeick UFA
in net
Emery UFA plus career ending injury
Leighton UFA
this team can get totally re-tooled in the office season if Homer does it right we finally have some Cap room to fill in the holes in the lineup.
I really only want Carcillo back, maybe Asham and karjeick, but I could care less which way they go on them. If I could trustEmery to be healthy, then I would tak him for the same price next year. So with Carcillo and Emery looking to get a mill a season, that gives us $6-7 million in cap. sounds good to me
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Emery is not coming back to the Flyers or the NHL his injury is too serious. Asham Carcillo, Lappy, Betts, Powe that is too 4th line grinders. Carcillo and Asham can’t play on the top lines and we currently have both of them in there they need to be upgraded to guys with more skill not stars but good complementary players. Like a Fedotenko type guys that cost 1-2 million, basically 40 point guys instead of 20 point guys.
As long as Carcillo stays, i’ll be happy. We need a Kanuble, thats what’s killing us the most. I’d be happy if they could trade Hartnell for a defender that can play 2nd pair. As long as Coburn and Parent arent here next season im fine. Coburn is playing his way off the team, and Parent is a lock to get injured again. Plus, we have two top pair d-men in the phantoms coming up, so even a third line guy is fine. So in reality, we need to sign two Forwards, and a Goalie.
"NO HONOR"
"We will steal the show, jolly Rogers go, we are wolves of the sea."
Phantoms player Pat Maroon = next season’s Knuble. Mark my words. JVR, Giroux, and Maroon on the “too-young-for-LCB” line.
Carcillo and Asham have earned roster spots in my mind (Carcillo for sure). While I like Darroll Powe, he is a poor-man’s Scottie Upshall – and the Flyers could definitely use a utility player with more scoring punch. Krajicek is serviceable enough, but Bartulis makes a decent replacement for him if he walks. One of either Coburn or Parent needs to hike off (possibly both, but I’d settle for Coburn), either to make room for Syvret or a free agent. Goalies … Boucher is under contract, so he’s the backup. The most desperate need is a starting goaltender.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 24, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you listen to the podcasts? Tim McManus pretty much killed my Maroon-hype.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
No I don’t listen to the podcasts – I’ll have to check up on that, thanks.
by MaximumTalbot on Mar 28, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
man, I was really worried when I thought I read Pat Falloon
by JerseyDriver on Mar 25, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn’t be worse than Bureau coming on the team after the hit to Svoboda
by JerseyDriver on Mar 25, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
turning his back
I don’t think Gagne turned his back at all he was making the play on the puck redirecting it forward which casued him to turn. If he he decided to keep the puck on his stick and turn up ice to skate with it his back would have been towards Volchenkov and he still would have gotten boarded. So basically to protect yourself from dirty hits you should skate backwards through the neutral zone. That is apparently what the Ottawa announces think players should do. The back turn argument goes better in the Jones Bergeron hit, that was a bang bang play no time for the players to react and slow up and that got called 5 minute major Jones got ejected and suspended. And none of the Bruins got 19 for going after him.
There’s no excuse for the Volchenkov hit on Gagne to go unpenalized. There’s also no excuse for Richards and Carcillo to stop playing defense while the play was still going on and allow Ottawa a 3 on 2 rush.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on Mar 24, 2010 10:59 AM EDT reply actions
All it does is take a 2 sec second look over at a Gagne to see if he is okay to lead to a breakdown, I would have looked over especially after losing Carter and Gagne’s history of head injuries. They should have grabbed the nearest Senator and started to pummel him that would have at least stopped the rush.
The problem is that Richards and Carcillo don’t just look at Gagne for two seconds. They both skate up to Volchenkov and give him a light push. Then skate away when they finally realize that the play is still going on. One of the two of them is responsible for covering the odd man on the Senators’ rush. They took themselves out of position for no reason.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on Mar 24, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong.
Both Richards and Carcillo tried to figth V (not even gonna try to spell it anymore). He said no, and they both couldn’t jump him. We have two guys on our team that it would have been ok to jump him there- Ash (Don’t need him to score, no record, team guy) and Lappy (When ever Lappy fights- we score right after. Also Lappy has the respect around the league that if he jumps a guy, people ask why? And then they’ll see it was a illegitimate hit). If Carcillo did it- he’s suspended. Period. If Richie did it, we already didn’t have Carter, for all Richie knew at the time we might have lost Gagne, and 20 PIM for Richie gives us no way for us to win the game, unless the momentum swing is that much. Once V said no, they both skated back. I’ll take a loss knowing my captain and fighter stick up for a scorer any day. Yes- we need points. But I’d rather maybe go into the playoffs as a team, key word: team, that can win; as opposed to a bunch of guys out there for them selvs.
To say that its unnaceptable to do what Richie and Carcillo did just shows you don’t know hockey. Rule number one: win. Rule number 2: protect teammates. (If you don’t protect teammates you cant win- therefor rule two trumps one in this scenerio)
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 24, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Richards and Carcillo did nothing to protect Gagne. Nothing. If you think a push and a couple of stern stares is “protecting” you either don’t know what protecting is or have some seriously orange and black tinted glasses on.
Richards and Carcillo had two options: fight Volchenkov or continue playing. They chose neither option.
Can you tell me the rest of orangeandblack20’s rules of hockey? Obviously my six plus years of playing and lifetime of being a fan aren’t enough to give me any knowledge on the subject.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on Mar 24, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Richie said he didn’t really see the hit. That explains him not being more angry. Carcillo I’m chalking up to restraint, he knew if he started something he’d probably get thrown out of the game b/c lets face it, he would have been with that crew.
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Mar 24, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Why does it seem like the league REALLY REALLY REALLY hates us Flyers??? I mean people say we bitch and moan about refs and calls but when you watch a Flyers game, you can really see that something just seems….wrong. Please help me understand this…why do we get the short-end of the stick when we are one of the premier clubs in the league to date.
Skip the Pitt, Move on down to Broad Street....
Philadelphia Flyers / Columbus Blue Jackets, 'nuff said.
At the very least it should have been a minor penalty, but the only true difference between this play and the Alex Ovechkin hit on Brian Campbell is that Campbell was seriously injured. It’s by sheer luck that Gagne didn’t suffer a similar fate.
This is my complaint/concern. Either we accept dangerous hits like this as "hockey is just a dangerous game and people get hurt," in which case you don’t suspend or penalize people when there are injuries, or we punish all the dangerous hits because they have the potential to injure. To accept the ones that don’t injure as "hockey is a dangerous game" but punish the ones that do injure makes absolutely no sense.
I disagree with your blindside assessment but there is so much wrong with that hit that it doesn’t really matter.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I honestly don’t see the AO/Campbell comparisons here. If it’s an AO hit, I see it being the Kaleta one.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying that hit directly in the dynamics of it. I’m saying that players finish checks from behind all the time, and when a guy gets hurt there is a punishment, when a guy doesn’t get hurt nothing happens. You can argue that AO deserved a suspension whether or not Campbell got hurt, but Colin Campbell directly said that the injury was why AO got suspended. Either you punish the hits on principle, or you just live with injuries. Punishing the injury is the most ludicrous position you can take.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Oh, certainly. That argument is just absurd. Is that Exhibit 94 of what’s wrong with the NHL? I get the numbers mixed up all the time.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I’m not great with numbers. More of a qualitative guy. If I wasn’t a diehard fan it would be kind of hysterical to just watch the NHL “disciplinary process.”
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
And it’s more than just the “disciplinary process”, it’s the whole system starting with the officiating. How can Richards get a penalty and ejected for his hit on Booth and Cooke get nothing at all. Not even an “intent to injury” call. How can you watch one game, where a guy taps another guys stick and he gets 2 minutes for slashing and then watch another game, where I guy get’s clearly boarded and no call. And it’s not confined to the Flyers. Just about every team in the league has complained about it.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Mar 24, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was folding the reffing into “disciplinary process.” The refs need much better direction from the league and I think the league also needs to move to permanent ref teams so they get used to working together and we don’t see the ref at center ice call a hold behind the net.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Good point, I totally agree with you that theu need to go with permanent crews like the NFL they also need to at least fine all dangerous hits or shots that are to the head like the NFL. That would bring awareness and consequence to you actions and make players think twice before making a hit. More importantly is the damn instigator needs to go. Hockey hasn’t changed all that much it is the same game where were all these hits during the 80’s. The instigator was put into to place in 1992. Find me guys who missed season or had to careers ended with concussion problems before that rule came into place. Our team as had two guys Lindros and Primeau who pretty much had to leave the game and Gagne is almost a third. Players aren’t careful enough, respect will never keep people in line, Grand Moff Tarkin had it right, FEAR WILL KEEP THEM LINE.
I agree about the instigator rule, but Lindros isn’t the best example. He learned to skate with his head down in the middle of the ice in Juniors because nobody could make him pay. In the NHL he didn’t break the habit in time and got taught a tough lesson. He wasn’t hurt by cheap shots that would have been deterred by a lack of an instigator rule.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
not cheap but dangerous, I don’t buy into the argument he had is head down he deserves his career to be ended, if that argument held up in football there wouldn’t be a single starting QB playing after week 5 there is no need to ever ever ever hit a player in the HEAD, I am not arguing Stevens intent nor do I need that brought up but a big BODY CHECK like Ovie on Jagr in the Olympics is all that is need to stop the play and make the point you don’t need to go after a guys head just because you have a legal hit opportunity to do so, for those types of plays, Stevens could have easily hit him in the chest and sent him flying broken up the play but he hit him in the HEAD and scrambled his brains, that is not safe not good for the players or the league and totally uncalled for. The IHF penalties all hits to the head and I AM ready to go that far, elbow, shoulder and stick hitting the head should be illegal. Hits to head should be regarded the same as high sticking it is simple solution to the problem it is an automatic two minutes for roughing or charging take your pick, with a 4 minute double minor if you draw blood and 5 minute major if the guy leaves on a stretcher. Yes it is referee by result which is retarded but that is the way the league is and this will keep the players safe and remove decision making from the refs, because they blow at making decisions. Rules in general SHOULD be clear cut and very rarely do we complain about High Sticking that rule is in place to keep the players safe and if the refs see it they usually make the right call. I currently don’t think the refs know what the difference between and legal and illegal hit because the definition is so blurry.
I agree that there is no excuse to directly target the head, whether the guy has his head down or not. I guess we just disagree with how the Stevens/Lindros hit played out. I don’t think Stevens was aiming for the head. When you are skating forward with your head down you don’t leave a lot of area for the hitter to make contact with and still avoid the head. That AO on Jagr hit is a great example. I don’t want to watch the brand of hockey that outlaws that hit. It was a great hit and a huge point in the game. But even in the aftermath you heard/read people complaining that AO made contact with Jagr’s head and should have been penalized by the strict IIHF rules. Because of where Jagr’s head was it was almost impossible for AO not to make any head contact. It looks pretty clear to me that AO puts his shoulder into Jagr’s sternum and wasn’t aiming for the head. That’s the big concern with “hit to the head” penalties, IMO.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I know there is a concern but if there was a such a penalty (for head shots) then the players would be more concerned and aim their hits better. Jagr bounced back up in a sec and most of the time that would happen if a guy didn’t get hit high. And the refs did get the AO Jagr hit correct. Another hit I remember that should NOT be penalized in my opinion was Campbell on Umberger here is the link. If you notice principal point of contact was the body that absorbed most of the impact.
The Lindros Stevens hit looks exactly like the Cooke hit on Savard. Here is the link that should be 20 games or more it directly to the head principal point of contact. That is totally uncalled for and not a clean hit. He hit him in the Jaw nothing contacted the body. Listen to the announcers his shoulder hit his Jaw. Since it was his shoulder that is consider clean under the current rules. That is stupid and dangerous and should be illegal.
Stevens approached from the front, not the back. I completely disagree that it is exactly like the Cooke or Richards hits.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
but you do agree that it was a hit primarily to the head where he could have hit the body, and it was a still coming laterally across the ice the language of the new rule is
lateral, back-pressure or blind-side hit to head will take effectcoming across the ice hit to the head Penalty called suspension issued
All I’m going to say is that the video produced by the NHL uses the Stevens/Lindros hit as an example of what is still legal. We can agree to disagree on the rest.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
This quote is from The Hockey News, which is notoriously one of the most pro-Canadian and anti-Flyers news sources.
“Volchenkov was all over the ice Tuesday, blocking shots and delivering some game-changing if questionable hits as the Senators beat the Philadelphia Flyers 2-0. In the third period, Volchenkov nailed Simon Gagne with a check from behind that took the Flyers forward out of the play and resulted a Daniel Alfredsson’s insurance goal. Volchenkov did not receive a penalty for the hit.”
If even THEY can admit it was “questionable” and “from behind,” how can anyone else argue the point at all?!!?!?
I have yet to see anyone argue that it was not from behind, or questionable. Even on our devoutly pro-Sens website.
There’s not an argument that it was not from behind, because it clearly was. There are arguments that Gagne turned at the last second and Volchenkov could not stop himself (as seen on SBN’s Predators blog: http://www.ontheforecheck.com/2010/3/24/1388191/volchenkovs-hit-on-simon-gagne) but I think most people accept that Volchenkov got off lucky by not receiving a penalty on the play.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
Sure it wasn’t a good hit, but I don’t think the blame is with Volchenkov. IMO he clearly knew he did something wrong (just look at his reaction after the hit), its not his fault he wasn’t called for it. This is definitely on the refs.
The killer is the series of events, Gagne gets hit, Alfredsson (?) scores, Gagne fights Volchenkov, Flyers get 7min PK. Its like a triple screw. Sure Gagne should have gone to the box for tackling Volchenkov, but it shouldn’t have come to that. If Volchenkov gets penalised for that hit, no Alfredsson goal and the Flyers still have a chance in the game.
I’m probably just reiterating what everyone already knows but heh.
Also, why did Volchenkov get 2 for roughing? He didn’t even have a chance haha.
"NZFlyerfan"
Haha, that confused me too.
Anton really didn’t earn a roughing penalty for the post-goal scrum, but I’m not really going to try and figure out what the refs were thinking last night!
But you’re right — the biggest issue is what happened after the goal. If this hit happened and there was no call and then the puck was frozen by a goalie and nothing happened, there wouldn’t be much (if any) discussion about it today. It’s really the goal and the 7 PIMs that really rubbed salt in the wounds and made this a big story.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
Bettman doesn’t have a normal brain. You and most people posting have one that works, his just doesn’t.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 24, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Instigator rule
It needs to go. In conclusion of all of these big hits- yes the hitter always pays for it after the play… but too long after. Richards fought Booth… next game. Cooke took his lumps… next game. Even V took his shots… after the goal. I garuntee you that if there is no instigator rule, Richie gets jumped Immediatley- making it a full 5 minute major penalty for each team. Same with Cooke. Even one game earlier, Powe got killed, 5 minute major… but Cote jumped the hitter and got a 2 minute instigator. If Volchankov hits Gags, Carcillo jumps him… Our momentum… one goal game… even strenghth. Because of the Instigator… 2-0 them. 7 PP mins. Their momentum. If he knows he’s getting rocked by Carcillo/Richards/Pronger I GARUNTEE you that V doesn’t hit Gagne… or he doesn’t hit him like he does.
by orangeandblack20 on Mar 24, 2010 4:41 PM EDT reply actions
I agree and have said that myself. However, I do not believe that these hits will completely stop, and not quickly even if that happens. I would hope for that, but expect less.
by JerseyDriver on Mar 24, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree it would help espeically if you call both guys for fighting the current rules if you instigate a fight your opponent should just turtle up because that is now 7 minutes for instigating. Anton and Bradley both had their gloves off and didn’t get a fighting penalty. You can’t call fighting one way, it takes two to tango, that is more full retard than calling both a trip and dive on the same play.
I’m glad Gagne went after that prick. Kudos to him for standing tall and the other Flyers on ice for standing up for their teammate but this league has really become a joke. I don’t understand how they can impose rules and selectively enforce them. I mean, take Carcillo for example. Sure he’s a fighter in the league, but if someone boards him or charges him I expect a penalty to be called instead of letting it go because he’s got a reputation. A hit is a hit and this one was dirty. Fortunately Gags didn’t get hurt, but a lot of fans are really losing patience with this joke leadership in this league.
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