Lost Finale ***SPOILERS***
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 12:18 PM EDT
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PrintAgain, the people demanded it. Luckily, I had Shaun to talk to throughout the show last night or else I would have gone crazy.
Obviously, the spoiler alert is above so if you don't want to know what happens in the Finale, you probably shouldn't read the comments.
To echo Jimmy Kimmel, we'll ask a few questions, mainly "What the hell just happened?"
Go for it.
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Shaun and I were chatting it out via FB, and like you Geoff, if I didn’t have someone to bounce ideas off of I would have gone nuts. The wife was in tears most of the episode so she was no good to me.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I loved it so much that I didn’t see the backlash coming. I don’t understand the hate, but more than that, I don’t understand the confusion. Almost everything (in this episode, at least) makes perfect sense.
I think the backlash is that it was predictable to a degree…and despite the writters saying the island was not purgatory, purgatory still did play a central role.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
See, I don’t think the Alteraverse was purgatory at all. The only Purgatory-esque aspect is the “waiting room for heaven” angle which 1) doesn’t really describe happened in the show’s Alteraverse, 2) doesn’t at all describe Purgatory.
Even if it was, it wasn’t a copout. Whatever we’re calling the Sideways universe, it didn’t exist during the times when people complained about the island being purgatory. The opposite happened: the island turned out to be very real, and this alternate reality was sort of an epilogue to that reality.
Yeah, I get the backlash…and I think the people that hated it, hated before they even saw it…they kind of built themselves up to not like it, saying things like “well if this doesn’t happen”, or “if they don’t talk about that”, or “if this ends up like that”. I honestly think the majority of people who didn’t like it, went in with their minds made up not to like it anyway.
I loved for the fact, that I have to room to make the story be what I want it to be, and have it make sense to me. I thought that was great about it, it was like a gift, they boxed it, put on the wrapping papaer, and then left it up for the viewer to tie the bow around it.
That’s not entirely true. I watched it with my friend who introduced me to Lost, and for the first 2 hours and 20 minutes we were going crazy with excitement. The last 10 minutes we sat in silence, then turned to each other and said “Why did we waste six years on that?”
If you enjoyed that ending, that’s cool. But there are plenty of people who loved the show and the finale but thought that was the worst ten minutes in TV history.
Honestly I think the ending was my favorite part. I knew going into the last 10 minutes that, no not all the questions will be answered and it probably won’t click immediately but that’s just lost. It was a great show and I will remember it forever and probably go back and watch what I missed out on. (I didn’t watch much of the first three seasons)
Don't leave the duck there thats totally irresponsible. Put it on the swing it'll have much more fun. - Sleep Talkin' Man
by gingerredboy on May 24, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t mean to be so definitive, I think most people that hated the ending were expecting something that the series never has been. And by most people, I just simply meant the people I know that haven’t liked the ending. Sorry you didn’t enjoy it. Personally I can’t wait to watch it 20 more times while I wait for Saturday to arrive. Also I hate you NHL for scheduling reasons. If the Flyers win it in game 6, and I’m in San Diego for work, and have to give up my tickets….not good things.
Its just like the movie Jacobs Ladder
Jack died due to the plane crash but he had to come to terms with his death.
Rather than having your life flash before your eyes, his mind flashed to a wild, creative posable ending it needed to come to terms to such an unexpected ending.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
But Jack didn’t die from the plane crash.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I don’t think so either, but I think if that’s what you want to take from it, they left it open enough for you to decide he did die from the plane crash, even if I disagree.
Well the way Christian explained it…everyone in the church did die…but not in the crash, everyone you saw die on the show died when they died…what happened, happened. But some of them died after Jack, such as Hurley and everyone that got off on the plane Lapidus flew.
Jack died in the bamboo forest which is where he woke up in the pilot episode. The show was about Jack coming to grips with him dying and everyone coming together in the flash sideways to help Jack, let go and move on.
That’s how I saw it.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
This is correct. You can read other things from it, but this is what actually happened, in the plot.
It’s analogous to saying Simba went on a bender after Mufasa died and the whole revenge on Scar was a hallucination from eating semi-poisonous insects with Timon and Pumbaa.
hahahaha, interesting analogy.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
lol
Just like Ferris Bueller is a (fight club) figment of Cameron Fryes demented mind, starting when he is sick in bed and ending when he is OK with totally smashing his dads car
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s exactly like this. The world they create is consistent. There’s no reason to doubt the complete, subjective experience we’ve just had.
That doesn’t mean that Cameron isn’t actually hallucinating, and that Jack didn’t actually die in the plane crash, only that it’s not the story we’ve been presented.
Not to start a he said she said,
their is evidence to support that he did die in the plane crash
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No, you’re making up evidence. Which is fine, because that’s how LOST is watched. But the story has tied at both ends. He died post-corking, and we’re told as much.
As I said, there’s evidence for any possible explanation. But there’s also a cogent plot. As fun as these thought experiments are, I think it’s a disservice to recognize that they told a story, and that story makes sense—even if you want to believe that they are hinting at something else.
at least we agree it was a fantastic show
I will leave it at that
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Even ignoring Christian saying the opposite?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree 100% with you, but I’ve had people IM me at work and view it more so they way Prometheus did. I don’t know how they could, based on Christian dialogue with Jack, and why all those people would be there if he did die then, but I’m allowing it as being interpreted that way b/c I feel how viewed the series as a whole determines how most people viewed the finale.
Agreed. I saw a lot of people post on FB “So it took 6 years to tell me everyone died on the plane?” I was like…wait, what? Did you watch?
Anyone have any idea the significance of seeing a crashed plane on the island during the credits?
Was that O815? or a different plane?
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
See that’s why I accept the possibility everyone died in the crash. B/c up until I saw that plan, I was right there 100% with you and Snevik. Once they showed that plane, I was ok, they decided to make this more open ended, but I’m going to stick with my initial conclusion (which is how you and Snevik saw it).
I recorded the finale so I will watch it again and see if I catch anything…plus read some reviews and see if anyone else points something out. It may have been just the writers attempts to draw us back to the pilot and may have had no meaning at all, but with this show, everything had meaning.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
The plane fragments were just to take things full circle, a little garnish to show you how far we’ve come. People are reading too much into that.
That’s what I figured, but like I said, everything has meaning so you never know.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Yeah I’m in the “never know” boat, but I still share the same interpretation of the episode, and honestly, I really liked it, and the way I saw it. I honestly liked it a lot more than I thought I was going to. I liked the way they handled Kate and Jack, I liked the way they handled Hugo, and I loved the way they handled Ben.
Locke’s death could have been better, that scene was missing something for me, but Jack’s bad ass hero punch leap was pretty cool.
Ben was by far my favorite character on the show. A lot of that had to do with Michael Emerson. I was not a huge fan of Locke but I was a huge fan of Terry O’Quinn playing MiB…if he does not win an award for that I am going to be furious.
The Jack and MiB stare down on the cliff was amazing. As was Jack’s punch leap.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I agree with this. I think a lot of my very strong reaction to backlash is explained in that I simply didn’t have that make at stake in this season. All I wanted from the finale was for them to not fuck things up. I tempered my expectations of what I thought would be reasonable, and then they gave me an unreasonably good finale.
I was blown away, and will now defend this show and this episode forever.
Posable evidence to support it all happened within a split second.
As Jack is walking in the bamboo field, some bloody debree can be seen strewn in some bamboo shoots in the background. They mirror the same debree from the very 1st episode. Same with Vincent as a younger puppy.
Cristian Sheppards expiation and roll mirrors The chiropractor in Jacobs Ladder. I know the words are diffrent who said: ‘the only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won’t let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they’re not punishing you,’ he said. ’They’re freeing your soul. So, if you’re frightened of dying and… you’re holding on, you’ll see devils tearing your life away. But if you’ve made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.’"
The expiation is different, but their job of helping the hero come to terms with the fact he just died is the same.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The debris has aged since the pilot. Vincent has aged; the shoe is old and tattered. It’s parallelism, they’ve sued it through the entire series. It could be evidence of a cyclical existence-that-never-was…but that’s not what it IS.
Look again, a wet bloody sneaker is fresh
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No, its not.
And Jack clearly recognized vincent when he ran over. If it had all occurred in an instant, he’d been a lot more shocked to see a dog run over to him after a plane crash.
On the flipside, Vincent clearly recognized Jack.
The whole point was to show that everything for Jack came full circle. The show opened with Jack’s eye opening in the bamboo field with Vincent there…the show ended with Jack’s eye closing and Vincent there…again, Jack was also in difference clothes. The most obvious example that Jack did not die right in the crash.
Also, if that were the case, if Jack did die in the crash, or rather, right after it, then why involve everyone else? Why a church full of people that Jack would have never had a chance to establish a relationship with had he died 5 minutes after the plane crashed?
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
re watch it with an open mind to my perspective
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m all for taking different reads of the show, just as along as they don’t come at the expense of the facts of the show. I’m not trying to rail against you, but let’s acknowledge that, even within the wacky context of LOST, something happened. There is a base story which we derive these symbols and ideas from.
Also Pink Floyds the wall movie came to mind
The whole movie takes place in a matter of seconds in the mind of a dude on acid
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on May 24, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I did not watch Kimmel yet, DVR’ed it, so I am curious what the alternate endings were about.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
hahaha thanks. I can’t imagine them being anything special, not like they could drastically alter the ending of the show.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
You can find them on youtube.
They are all spoofs, the first one I thought was really funny, the second one was terrible, the third one was okay.
Interesting ideas. What I don’t get about the alternate universe is: was it an epilogue? Jack’s conversation with his dad says that he’s dead, but maybe it’s just that he dies eventually.
I admit, I need to watch it again because I don’t quite understand it. How does Jack have a kid in the alternate universe if it was just him waiting to let go?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
I do think it is an epilogue but the way it was done, Jack realizes that he dies in the alternate universe as we see him die on the island…but they do not happen simultaneously which is what we were lead to believe all season. Everyone came together to help Jack move on because he was the last to remember, the last to believe, which was always the case.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Re: Jack’s kid
The entire alternate universe is in their minds, as a collective consciousness, as it were. When Locke tells Jack he doesn’t have a kid, it’s true: it never actually happened. But since this is a mental construct, anything is allowed.
Some people view Jack’s kid, as Jack himself. Jack’s kid has the same issues with Jack that Jack had with his dad to start the who alternate reality bit this season. But then he develops a healthy relationship with his dad. That might be viewed as jack coming to grips with his own childhood and issues with his father.
Hmm. A collective consciousness. I like it. That makes a lot more sense.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank jesus someone else saw it that way.
After the episode ended I talked to a couple friends and posited what I called a “collective unconscious” and am stunned that I hadn’t seen any one else come up with the idea until now.
I thought in the side-ways world, each person existed as they saw themselves. Sawyer always thought he was pursuing justice, chasing the guy who killed his parents, so he saw himself as a detective. Kate saw herself as a fugitive who did everything to protect motherhood, Locke saw himself married to Helen, Jack saw himself as a father, etc etc.
Sayid saw himself as a killer, and in the sideways world he grew to see himself as a good person. Jack grew to be a good father to his son.
They all needed to make peace with how they saw themselves in order to move on.
As far as where they moved to, it doesn’t matter. Thats why the “church” was filled with multi-denominational symbology. It’s spiritual, but adogmatic. You can believe they walked out the church door and went to heaven, or were reincarnated, or whatever. Darlton lets you decide what happens when they walk into the light, because its really an individual preference. Whether you think “heaven” is 73 virgins, or cheeseburgers for every meal, or whatever.
My biggest problem with it though is all the things throughout the 6 seasons that were MAJOR events/plot lines that just got dropped or didn’t matter. Such as:
- Claire’s baby being special/wanted by the Others, can’t be raised by another, etc. Nothin’
- DHARMA. Ok, they were just some people who lived on the island for a little while, had an accident, which brought the plane to the island, except Jacob did that. Just a huge sidetrack.
- Walt being special and having visions. But he got too old, so nobody cares.
- Time travel. Cool fact about the island, which was only used to show different time periods of the island’s life. The wheel? The light in the center of the island? Psh. Not explained.
- The nuclear bomb. It went off, presumably creating the alternate universe, so it presumably killed everyone. Except it didn’t, so all that really did was kill Juliette and piss off Sawyer.
- The tribe who lived in the Temple. Who the eff were they? Who cares, they were dead in like 4 episodes anyway.
- Sayid dying and coming back. Was he the smoke monster? Did the island bring him back to life? No idea what that was.
- Charles Widmore. So he really didn’t matter. At all. What was his only contribution? Bringing Desmond back. Oh, and he was married to a woman who… can find the island.
So much shit that was so huge when it was happening, but now just doesn’t matter. I understand there will be loose ends, but to have a lot of this stuff just be filler in a story when it appeared to be some piece to an elaborate puzzle is extremely disappointing.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions
I agree with you on all of that…those are just some of the questions that went without answer and I guess people now have to put the puzzle together themselves. The writers decided what was important what wasn’t and answered what they deemed important. Supposedly the Blu Ray of Season 6 will have answers to some stuff but I seriously doubt I will invest the money on it. I can’t see myself sitting down and watching the show again. As great as it was, once you know what happened, then why watch again? I may be the only one who thinks that and that’s fine.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Yeah, I knew things wouldn’t be answered. But the ending made all of that seem like stunts, which really damaged the experience. I could live with having some of them being unanswered, but there were just far too many major events (DHARMA, the nuclear bomb, and time travel taking over almost two full seasons) that now seem like footnotes. And that bothers me.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
My takes:
-Claire’s baby: Someone posed the Others taking to people to me like this: all the candidates, by Jacob’s admission, were broken. The Others were taking the “good” ones. Smokey couldn’t kill the candidates, but could kill everyone else. The Others job was to take all the innocent, non-candidates incidentally brought to the island and protect them (i.e. Temple, Othertown, Hydra Island were all safe from Smokey). This is evidenced by Cindy and the kids sticking around so long. As far as Claire’s baby was concerned, pregnant women and their children died on the island. It’s possible, in this altruistic vein, that the Others were simply trying to protect them. And the “Don’t let it be raised by another” thing? I’m guessing that’s Jacob’s way of saying “If you get lured away from your baby by Smokey in the form of your dad, you’ll go fucking insane and raise a skeleton doll in a crib.” Claire didn’t fare very well without Aaron.
-DHARMA: Just one of the many people that get close to discovering the island’s secrets and then are eliminated (ala MiB’s “people”). Part of the cyclical nature of the island. They had no real importance in and of themselves, but happened to interact with our characters.
-Walt as special: They never explained Miles being special, or why exactly Hurley as special. In general, they made a habit of not explaining these things. If Walt is not a candidate, a psychic, and has a communion with the island, of course the Others want him.
-Time Travel: Yeah, probably just a narrative device. The nature of the light is unexplained (which frankly, I prefer), so we can’t tell exactly why this happened.
(splitting into two because it was too long)
-Nuke: It is the incident. It didn’t kill everyone, but it did always exist in our original plot line. I don’t think the alternate universe was created by the blast, actually; I think that was a narrative trick to keep us guessing as to what exactly this alternate universe was. The nuke explode isn’t an essential, or even contributing, factor in this world.
-Temple folk: The remnants of the Others. Ben signals them towards the end of the fourth season before Locke moves the island. I don’t know if they jump around in time, but I would assume not. They always existed, but we never saw them, because we never saw the Temple.
Oh, forgot two:
-Zombie Sayid: Since dead is dead, something fishy had to be going on here. He wasn’t the smoke monster, since he defied Smocke’s will and thought independently (thus, Smocke is relieved when Sayid didn’t kill Des in the finale). I have to think he’s been imbued with some of the Island Sacred Light, though, given the parallel pools in the heart of the Island and the Temple. I think it’s possible that MiB stole some light when we was pushed into the cave; it’s inside him and binds him to the island. Des is the only one with the power to resist that, I guess. Anyway, I think Sayid is living on fragments of Smocke’s light, as Smokey has more control of these pools than Jacob (i.e. Ben’s secret summoning room).
-Widmore: This, I admit, is disappointing, because he’s such a badass. I think, however, his role had to remain vague. What he originally wanted, while on the Island, strayed too closely to control of the Light. He gets booted off by Ben because Charles gets greedy, then he spends the rest of his days trying to get back and harness that Light. Until Jacob comes and sends himon his final mission (thus, Widmore can finally find the Island rather easily).
Retorts:
- Claire’s baby: That sounds awesome and makes sense, except the Others were led by Ben who never saw Jacob nor communicated with him. As far as the Others were concerned, there were no candidates, since Ben said he was the leader. That right there tends to kill the extremely awesome explanation.
- DHARMA: While that’s probably true, that sucks. Royally. Again, I’d be fine with it if it wasn’t one of many.
- Walt: The comparison to Miles is apt, if not complete. We at least know what Miles’ and Faraday’s specialty was. With Walt, we never really got what he could do that was special. Could he make things happen (Bird, polar bear) or could he foresee things (warning Hurley and Locke)?
- Nuclear Bomb: I thought it was the incident, but the hatch wasn’t built over it. After the bomb, there was no hatch. So while I would agree with the nuke = incident, I don’t understand why there’s no hatch.
- Temple folk: I completely forget the signal from the fourth season.
- Sayid: Even your explanation makes no sense. Thanks for trying.
- Widmore: I like that his character is mysterious, and it’s another thing I could ignore if it wasn’t part of a larger problem.
Oh, P.S.: Ben could kill Jacob without the light being out because… the light only prevents MiB from killing Jacob? So really anybody could have Jacob at any point?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 24, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Without having much time to comment on anything else right now, my understanding is that only Jacob’s rules protected that candidates, and that didn’t/couldn’t extend to him. So, I think any non-MiB force could kill him at any time. But he didn’t exactly present himself very often.
The lists for the “good” people were coming from Jacob through Richard, not Ben. Ben was the leader of the Others, yes, and he did apparently communicate with Smokey at Jacob’s old cabin, but a lot of the instructions still went through Richard. If Alpert was present the entire time, it’s tough to imagine the Others going rogue just because Ben was being manipulated.
I don’t know about the lists going through Richard. One, I don’t remember that ever being said in the show. Two, that would require Ben to take orders from Richard and admitting that Jacob spoke to Richard and not Ben. No way that happens.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, Lostpedia says the lists were coming from the undercover Others (Goodwin and Ethan). That doesn’t really change my point, though—at least the list was made by well-intentioned Others. I think Richard might had down Jacob’s list of candidates (referenced by Pickett), but I could just be completely wrong.
But, as far as your second point: I disagree. Every leader of the Others recognized Richard’s role. Eloise, Widmore, Ben…there didn’t seem to be a difference.
I just don’t see this at all. How do Goodwin and Ethan correctly judge who is good – and thus not a candidate? Ben didn’t give them a list and say go get these people. So your initial theory would require Goodwin and Ethan to either a) be very good guessers or b) be in communication with Jacob. A) would ruin the theory and b) just didn’t happen.
Again, it’s an awesome theory. I just don’t think there’s evidence to support it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it fell apart pretty quickly. Give me more time on this, it’s not my theory, but I want to make it work.
Maybe Goodwin and Ethan make lists, and Richard/Ben pares them down. Which is a pretty dumb explanation.
Why couldn’t Goodwin and Ethan get the list from Jacob through Richard?
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I honestly forgot that whole part, it seems like so long ago. I just know lists were created, don’t remember who or what was responsible for them.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I honestly think MiB could have killed Jacob just like Jacob killed MiB. I don’t know if going into the light killed MiB or Jacob throwing MiB down and his head smashing off a rock before the water carried him into the light killed MiB. I don’t think the rules were ever actually set in stone. After all, Jacob and MiB’s mother said she made it so that they could never hurt each other…or die. I repeat…they could not HURT each other, and that neither of them could die. Not, “they could not kill each other” Jacob could very clearly hurt MiB since he kicked his ass on at least two occasions and obviously Jacob died while the light was still on.
Like I said, I think the rules were just words, and were only as enforceable as those willing to follow them.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Right, but that’s just what C.J. was telling them, that doesn’t mean it’s true. MiB just waited around several centuries, just to have someone else kill him?
hahahah, funny that you referred to her as C.J.
But here is the thing…it seems clear to me that MiB could not leave the island until the cork was removed because that action turned MiB from smokey back to an actual human. Had Jacob never thrown MiB down the well and turned him into Smokey then MiB would have been able to leave when he wanted to. It was his mother that said he couldn’t leave but I am pretty sure he always could. I truly don’t think that MiB leaving the island would have ever done anything to the rest of the world. People could always come and go as they wanted it was Jacobs mother and then Jacob that made the rule that you can’t leave the island which is obviously not true since Richard did it repeatedly and since the O6 left and then returned.
What sucks is that the only real questions answered were the ones that were created in season 6.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I think the cork and Smokey’s ability to leave the island are separate things. I agree pulling the cork made him human, but his original plan was the leave the island without pulling the cork. Only when he discovered Des’ power did he decide to destroy the island for good measure.
I’m pretty sure the rules exist, because MiB was tethered to the island by Jacob. It took killing him to be able to leave, and the last second he was manipulating human pawns to get off. Unfortunately, he became human himself because he tried to fuck with The Light That Should Not Be Fucked With.
As for leving and going, Jacob allowed Richard to, as his right hand. And he wanted the O6 back. The leaving rule was a general protection against people like Widmore going off island, getting the resources to take The Light, and coming back for it.
In other words, Jacob kept bringing people to the island to: 1) prove to MiB that people are good, and 2) find an eventual replacement. He had no urgency in either matter, so he’d let them play out their human games however they wanted. Then, if an individual or group got dangerous to the island, he could have them either booted by his people (ala Ben removing Widmore) or purged (ala Ben gassing some DHARMA homies). Obviously, the former is preferable, so dangerous people simply weren’t allowed back. For the same reason there wasn’t open access to the island in the first place.
the incident
im pretty sure that the crater we saw in the season opener of season six was the crater that was created when desmond turned the failsafe. The losties were transported forward time past the that point in time when the hatch was destroyed.
by flyguy11589 on May 25, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
so you’re saying the nuclear bomb crater and the hatch failsafe crater are one and the same?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t remember…
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Essentially thats what i meant. I don’t know if I would say that they were one in the same, but I think that we don’t ever see what actually happened because of the bomb. The crater that they all wake up in is the one that was from the hatch blowing up. I think that they blew up the nuke, then the hatch was built, then Desmond blew it up, then the losties from the 70’s woke up in the crater that used to be the hatch. I’m not sure if thats right but that was the way i perceived it.
but when they wake up in the future, they go down into the crater and pull out juliet from the wreckage she fell into before the explosion. wouldnt that not work out? all too confusing
by BobbyDucati on May 26, 2010 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
it is pretty obvious that richard was communicating with Jacob and that Ben had problems with it, but could not do anything about it because they needed jacob’s guidance, obvious by the way ben always acted towards richard, he was treated differently than all the others by ben, richard was definitely jacob’s messenger to the others
The thing that bothered me about the show was Desmond:
1 – Why is Desmond immune to electromagnetism?
2 – Why did anyone know Desmond was immune to electromagnetism?
3 – I get that moving the rock off the pedestal had to be done by Desmond because of his immunity to electromagnetism. Now, look back to the cabin when they accidentally fried the worker with the electromagnetism, and the dude crinkled up and died immediately.
So how is Jack able to place the rock back on the pedestal without getting instantly microwaved?
2 thoughts
1) They know that Desmond is immune to electormagnetism because he survived the explosion of the hatch where he had to press the button etc, and the explosion was an electromagnetic one.
2) I think when Desmond removed the Island’s buttplug, the electromagnetic field around it stopped, so Jack was able to put it back. Afterwards, I guess the Island rewarded him by not exploding him.
I can buy into your first response, not so much the second.
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I mean, he kinda does get exploded out of cavern. Maybe he just doesn’t die? I’m willing to suspend belief here for that awesome closing scene.
You are talking about Jack right? Which is what leads me to believe that Jacob killed MiB when he throw him down and his head hit the rock…because when MiB was spit back out, he was very clearly dead. Which means Jacob was able to kill MiB and MiB was able to kill Jacob. Why he used Ben I have no idea other than to say that MiB truly believed his mother when he said that he could not kill Jacob. But then, shouldn’t he know that isn’t true since Jacob did kill him? Just not intentionally.
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Or…MiB killed Mother, who held the power to make the rules. Once Jacob made Smokey, he created new rules to keep the Island/himself safe.
I don’t like this explanation, I’m just bouncing it off you.
It is an interesting theory…Ben did seem to imply to Hurley that whoever is incharge can make whatever rules they want. And once Jacob’s ashes disappeared then it seemed to release Richard from his immortal status. So maybe rules and promises die with the one responsible for creating them?
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Right, and maybe there’s some weird reaction where Smokey, as a product of The Light, can’t kill its protectors. Which is sort of a general law of nature, rather than a human rule.
I was more so under the impression that MiB was unconscious after hitting the rock, but died from the drop, head first, down to the cavern where the light was located. Not sure how this affects your theory, but that’s how I assumed MiB died, even though it was still a result of Jacob throwing him down, the stream carried him into the cave and over the cliff….
I don’t think this works. If this is true, Smokey’s sub bomb could have gone off without Sawyer tampering, because it would have been the water killing them, not him. Or, at very least, the explosives.
True…it’s just so much to wrap my head around. B/c it seems like all the potential explanations have soomething else that occurred in the show, that would contradict it. However, MiB made the bomb, so I would argue that is slightly different, and it might have been made to go off only if those wires were pulled out…I don’t know. The other thing that bothered me, where did MiB get so good at rigging explosives…I guess they did show him as being pretty quick with his people, so he may have just learned from observing all the people on the island.
The thing I like about the Jacob/MiB episode is it planted a lot of seeds for fun potential explanation. MiB was always fascinated with the ingenuity and creations of man, whereas Jacob believed in their better natures. It makes sense that MiB would be following the technology of the DHARMA initiative et al.
he absorbed the memories of the people he took over, locke was a survivor/outdoorsy kind of guy. im sure absorbing lockes ingenuity would easily explain MIB’s actions
Well outdoorsy doesn’t equate to bomb rigger exactly. But if MiB had some connection with Sayid that would explain it maybe a bit better, especially knowing how to construct it to make Sayid suggest removing those two wires. Of course, MiB was free to take over any corpse, so I’m willing to believe he witnessed or learned that craft from someone along the way on the Island.
Not to mention he is thousands of years old…he could has posed as an Other or Dharma for a while and learned through them.
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Well that certainly is possible, I would think the fall would kill him if he landed on his head.
I was waiting for Jack or Desmond to turn into a white smoke monster and then we have an epic smoke monster battle.
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I mean, he kinda does get exploded out of cavern
But look at what happened to the random worker drone in the cabin when they accidentally turned the machine on before testing desmond. That’s what should’ve happened to Jack.
That’s not what happened to MiB. I’m not sure we can assume the energy from Widmore’s machine interacts with people the same way the energy from the island does. If it did, wouldn’t Desmond have skipped over to the purgatory again?
We don’t know where the MiB went once the current took him through the mouth of the cave.
By your theory (that we can look at what happened to MiB/Essau/the man with no name to figure out what happens to non-electromagnetic-immune individuals) Jack would have turned into a smoke monster.
But Jack is no random worker drone. Sure, maybe he’s not Desmond, but he’s a lot more like Desmond than random dude hired by Widmore.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s not necessarily true.
Once the stone got moved, everyone empowered by the Light lost those powers. Hence Smokey could be killed.
Further, though, if Jack was empowered to survive electromagnetism, then what the fuck did they need Desmond for in the first place?
But you could also be mistaking the light eliminating the rules/promises (i.e. MiB can’t kill Jacob and vice versa, Richards is immortal) for the unexplained power Jacob had. Whatever process the drinking from the river set in motion could be an explanation.
I just think Jacob/Jack is completely different from random worker drone which is completely different from Desmond
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Two words: Plot Holes
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Yes but is it good that people talk about it because the show left it so open ended?
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Yes. Absolutely. They told a phenomenal story, they gave all the characters motivations and paid off our emotional investments in these characters. The purgatory side plot just gave us a hint for the biggest question—"Why is all of this happening?—but didn’t answer it. I thought they ended the show perfectly.
1) But long before he came to the island, and before the button wasn’t pushed, Eloise was selling him that ring over and over again…
2) It’s a lose-lose proposition. Either the rock caps the electro-magentism in the earth, and its released when the rock was moved (meaning jack should’ve been nuked as soon as he climbed down the rope) or the electro-magnetism exists only as a result of the rock being on the pedestal, (in which case Jack should’ve been nuked as soon as he put the stone back into place)
1) I mean, didn’t Eloise always just know? From her son’s journal. If Eloise knows, then Widmore would probably know.
2) Did the water in the pool complete the circuit? The electromagetic power of the The Light only seems to function when there’s water in the pool, and the water only runs when the hole is plugged. Thus, when Des unplugs it, the water drains, and then the energy goes bad. Although I have a feeling this should just be chalked up under “leap of faith/unexplainable island mechanism,” it’s fun to try and explain.
1) And thats my criticism. How did Eloise or Daniel or Widmore or whoever know, originally, that Desmond was immune to electro-magnetism? We never saw any clips of Desmond before he was like 18 years old.
And how did Desmond become immune to electro-magnetism?
2) That’s entirely possible, but Jack was still down there when the water began flowing back into the pool, so only so far as my question that Jack wasn’t nuked, the water seems irrelevent.
1) Desmond just…was immune? I’m not sure, in the context of LOST and its “special people,” that this in particular needs to be explanied. And Daniel would know about Desmond from his interaction with him at Oxford, unless I’m fudging my timeline a bit.
2) Jack did get expelled from the cavern, like MiB, and he did end up dying. He just held on a little longer, which is why I think the same kind of thing happened to them.
1) I have no recollection of Farraday and Desmond and interaction… help?
The only thing I can say about that is, didn’t we find out that Widmoor or Eloise or someone was the driving force behind all of that stuff at Oxford? As in, they already knew Desmond was special?
2)
which is why I think the same kind of thing happened to them.I’m lost as to what kind of thing it is you’re referring.
1) The Constant. Please tell me you remember the best episode of the series. Des has to go to Farraday to fix his Billy Pilgrim time jumping. And Widmore was financing all of Farraday’s experiments, while Eloise pushed him into science in the first place.
2) They both ended up in the river after the Light cave went bonkers. It expelled them both. Whatever force throws them out of the cave seems to have acted similarly on both of them. My point is, Jack wasn’t the only one that interacted with the electromagnet power of the Light in this way, he just happened to survive a few minutes longer. I can’t explain why he didn’t turn into the smoke monster, but perhaps it’s related. The power of the cave tosses out out into the river; Jack didn’t die because the smoke monster wasn’t their to steal his life. It was trapped and died in the body of Locke.
First, I’m really glad you came on this discussion MarioD, whether I agree with you or not, I always enjoy how you present your opinions in a very clear and concise way.
On your 3rd point. I wish I could explain that, b/c it has bothered me since watching the episode. At first, I noticed it, but didn’t care b/c I enjoyed him stumbling into the bamboo forest and the imagery there. But, now that I’ve had a couple days to digest everything, that is the one thing that has continually bothered me. I’d be more willing to accept everything if he had climbed out of the pool before the water began to flow again, but he just laid there accepting death. I’d love for anyone to present even the slightest insight to how that was possible.
Well Jack isn’t Desmond or Sawyer. He’s now Jacob. I have no idea if that matters, but there’s at least one difference between Jack and Desmond.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 25, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Any thoughts on the theory that New-New-Jacob Hurley created the purgatory world as a reward for Jack’s martyrdom?
I hadn’t heard that, how does that go exactly, or do you have a link to any type of explanation? Or is it just an idea thrown out there?
It seems pretty standard for this series. The writers did an awful job creating any sort of cohesive story, and so fans can pretty much try to create whatever they want.
This is like me saying that Banquo’s ghost was created by MacDuff. There is not a shred of evidence to support it, but it sounds cool.
I’m not exactly sure what people what from this show. The story is extremely cohesive and reliable where it matters. It’s fun to nitpick these “Why didn’t Jack fry in the cave?” type questions, but they have so little to do with what the show is about that I sometimes wonder if everyone was watching the same series I was.
I feel the same way. These aren’t minor things.
Once you create a narrative with magical elements, there needs to be some sort of logic behind them, some sort of rules. Shakespeare often used magical elements (ghosts, soothsayers, etc) but they always made sense. What here makes sense?
There’s apparently some magical cave that has some sort of consciousness. It’s overseen by some sort of magical man, who has numerous powers (and its never quite clear what those powers are). Some other magical man apparently can’t leave because of the cave, and wants to destroy it. Destroying said magic cave will apparently cause terrible problems (although its never clear what those are). Apparently, only certain people can either destroy said magic cave or save it.
There’s also a bunch of numbers that vaguely have to do with something.
And in the end they all get to be happy in heaven!
The show made no sense. In retrospective, it had some really fun episodes (all of Season 1) and was a nice way to kill some time. But there was just nothing approaching a fully fleshed out narrative.
JK Rowling did much explaining of Harry’s magic, did she?
It’s magic. Ultimately, no matter how much about it is explained, you either believe it for the sake of the story, or you don’t. Because magic is fictional.
Actually, she did a fairly good job of explaining the parameters of the magic in her little world (nb: I read those books to make my girlfriend happy). I was fairly skeptical of them and I couldn’t really find that many nits to pick, let alone massive gaping holes in the story.
That’s a massive cop-out, though. How am I “misinterpreting” what matters in this story?
Further, how do you determine what “matters” in the story?
Your argument has to rest on the logic of “the stuff they didn’t wrap up didn’t matter” which is circular.
You base that comment on….?
If we want to go into the “story about characters” then fine, I’ll explain why they did a terrible job with that. But this whole “story about characters” trope is an ex post facto justification that contradicts all evidence and even the statements from the showrunners prior to this season.
You base that comment on….?
Beyond my own analaysis?
Everything Darlton have said. Here, for one specific instance, is an excerpt from the June 2010 Vanity Fair:
For all its much-vaunted thematic and supernatural material, which the show’s creators and fans refer to as “the mythology”, Lost has been a hit because of the deep focus on its characters. “We spend so much of our time just talking about the characters and talking about ‘What do the characters want?’” says Cuse. “The mythology is an overlay. For us, it’s 10 or 15 percent of the show.”
.
“What we love about the characters on Lost is they all are very aware of what their problems are,” Lindelof says. “They’re all stuck in these patterns of behavior. And the question of the show becomes: How does the island illuminate this pattern and create an opportunity for the charactor to stop it? That’s what every human being is looking for: ‘I know what’s wrong with me. How do I change myself?”
The story is extremely cohesive and reliable where it matters.
That’s a very subjective statement. What matters to you might not matter to everyone else.
The list of things that people want answers to is rather extensive, so to say what you did above, though maybe true for you, is not true for everyone. And that is the rub.
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That’s fine, then its also our right to say that their story sucked.
For example, it’s not up to you to want more from Third Eye Blind. Those songs were their story to tell. But its your right to say “that’s unlistenable drivel” (except Semi Charmed Life, which was awesome).
Okay, but then I won’t tell you their songs have no arrangement and are atonal just because I don’t like them.
That’s fine but D-Train is exactly right. Everything is open for interpretation and criticism. They swept 5 seasons worth of questions under the rug and focused on season 6 alone.
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Interpretation is different than making the statement “The show made no sense.” 1) The story makes sense. 2) They didn’t tell you everything, and they didn’t need to. 3) Yes, there are a few loopholes, of course.
I don’t disagree with any of that.
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I just don’t understand the anger from a lot of LOST fans. I don’t know what they expected, exactly, but I got everything I wanted from this finale, including the two most important thing: a sense of the purpose of this all, and room for interpretation on many, many matters that I can debate indefinitely.
I think because people don’t want interpretation and debate. They want answers and closure and although the show did a great number of things, the finale did not provide the answers people were seeking, not all of them, and honestly, it only offered some closure.
As I said before, the show seemed to ignore what happened in the first 5 seasons, and let many questions unanswered and instead focused on what was given to us during season 6. You can’t expect people not to be annoyed with that.
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I didn't know where to put this comment
but I just wanted to tell you guys how much I enjoyed this thread. I am a huge lost fan, and just joined BSB. I liked the finale for the most part, and I really didn’t care that everything wasn’t explained. I’m happy suspending my reality and assuming it’s possible Desmond is a mutant that can withstand radiation, and that the numbers were coincidental, etc.
I agree that the last season stood alone, and I was a little annoyed that the “alteraverse” (as I’ve seen it called on this post) was, in essence, a special purgatory. The more I’ve ruminated on the finale though, the better I like it. The only thing that now bugs me is that all Jack had to do to make the island right again was put a little rock in the holee, where it clearly didn’t fit once the quakes happened. but I’m just being picky.
Anyways, thanks for having me here, it’s a great discussion going on!
by blackhawkeyes on May 26, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad you could enjoy the thread and the site. Feel free to chime in whenever. We certainly welcome the opinion of others…even if they are now fans of the enemy.
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thanks!
I can’t wait for Saturday! It’s going to be a great series
by blackhawkeyes on May 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for putting that out of my mind. I retract my previous statements of it being open to interpretation if Jack died from the crash or years later b/c of that shot of the wreckage. Now the ending can’t really be open for debate from that perspective, which doesn’t change how I viewed it, but gives me more ammo to give my friends some crap about it ;)
Pretty much sums it up.
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fail….
http://geekscape.net/the-top-ten-questions-lost-never-answered.html
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I’ll read it later and check back. BUt my personal views closely align with this guy.
Mainly: a lot of question amount to “they just do.” Demands of more info sort of miss the point. It’s a fictional world with fictional rules, surrender yourself. Especially since they are inessential to understanding the struggle.
They still make for great debates, though.
I will check your link out after I finish reading part 2 of Doc Jensens review…the link I posted above brings a humorous light to many of the topics we have discussed earlier. I can’t say it should be taken seriously.
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That link was interesting, but I mean, he just totally dismissed some legitimate questions. A few examples:
Why did the monster kill Mr. Eko, and why didn’t he just do it the first time they met?; How does Jack’s dad appear in a hospital in LA?; How did the monster get into Jacob’s cabin?; What’s the deal with the frozen wheel? It combines light and water?; How does Eloise come to run the Lamp Post station?; How does a pendulum predict the island’s movements?; Why do those returning to the island need to recreate the circumstances of their first arrival?
and on and on. Look, I’m not pissed that the show left things unanswered that could be interpreted fairly easily. But to say these questions weren’t “left unanswered” bothers me. If the author had said “you’re right, that wasn’t answered. It just doesn’t matter to me” that’s fine. Except he acted like those questions and a ton others don’t matter at all. They do. They’re plot holes and he’s pretending like they aren’t.
It’s one thing to acknowledge plot holes and accept them, it’s another to deny they are holes.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think things Eloise taking over the Lamp Post and how it operates are plot holes. They are certainly unanswered questions, but who really cares about these answers? Use some imagination to fill them in.
So, I agree with you to an extent, but I think his point in dismissing these question was “Do you really need these dots connected?”
The Lamp Post is something I really wanted some explanation for. Maybe not how Eloise took over (it’s an unanswered question, but I don’t care) but if people need to be able to find it (and many people did) I want to know how the Lamp Post did that but Widmore was unable to.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Eloise certainly seemed to have some privileged information, in general. I would have liked to have known more about her background. More fodder for discussion, I guess.
That’s precisely it. We’re presented with a character who has this amazing “knowing” ability. But then it is just dropped.
How does she know the future? Because either (a) she knows the future (which is not an acceptable answer) or (b) she’s magic! Which is fine, except a lot of people will find that unsatisfying, because it means that we’re just supposed to infer that some random group of people are magical.
You don’t need to know these things. Have fun guessing. You don’t get to have all character backgrounds and motivations spelled out for you. And thank god, because that makes for a shitty story.
Addressing each of their ten problems
1) The numbers were just a weird mystical thing. I have no idea what people wanted answered. The numbers were always just this weird coincidental fact that no one understood. Why does it have to be more than that?
2) What more did they need to say about Walt? He’s just another of the characters (Like Desmond, Farraday, etc) who have some sort of super-human ability. It manifested in interesting ways. And then he went on to a normal life.
3) A psychic, who was admittedly full of shit, made a big deal about Aaron. The psychic was shown to be full of shit, hence the big deal was just bullshit. Point resolved.
4) Is “What is up with the cabin” really a hole in the plot?
5) Is it really that hard to understand that Jacob was testing the candidates and observing, and not mothering them?
6) I think its pretty clear that the man with no name needed someone Jacob trusted to be able to get close enough to kill Jacob. And he needed to be able to get close enough to someone who could get close to Jacob in order to trick or persuade that person into the murder. Of all the other people on the island (Rousseau, Dharma, Others) were any of them good candidates for those needs? No.
7) “We got a perfectly good and reasonable explanation but I didn’t like it, so I’m going to bitch about it.”
8) The food drops were explained pretty clearly.
9) “We got a perfectly good and reasonable explanation but I didn’t like it, so I’m going to bitch about it.”
10) “We got a perfectly good and reasonable explanation but I didn’t like it, so I’m going to bitch about it.”
They most certainly did not address number 9. MiB was creating the wheel in which he would put it in the wall, hook it up to some system that they never explained in hopes of moving around the water and the light…and yet the two times the wheel was ever turned…Ben was sent to across the world and they started having time jumps…does not exactly explain what the wheel is and what it’s purpose was. Especially considering there was a different result each time it was used.
The also did not really answer number 10 but I am not too terribly worried about it. There are plenty of structures on the island that didn’t have or need an explanation. I think people wanted to know about the statue because like anything else the statue has some sort of meaning, we just don’t know what it is. The fact that Jacob was living there makes most people think that it had some sort of significance.
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Slight correction, the 2nd time the wheel was turned, it had the same result…sent Locke across the world. Ben’s turning of the wheel did the same for him but also started the time shifting, which again…why? Why does not fully turning the wheel start time shifting and why does turning the wheel move the island and why does turning the wheel send people to Tunisian?
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So we need a explanation of the engineering, physics, and chemical basis for everything that exists on the island?
The man with no name explained that he was building the wheel based on some scientific principles in the second-from-last episode of the series, and that it would get him off the island. Ben turned the eventually completed wheel and it transported him to Tunisia. What more do you need to know about it?
You don’t think an explanation is needed for something that can shift you through time? Make an island move? And send’s someone across the world? You are ok with the notion that just turning a wheel does that?
They basically said MiB is going to install a wheel into the wall that will get him off the island because of what he and the people he lived with discovered but never actually explained what that is?
When MiB showed his mother the wheel and then removed the stone all of that yellow light came out of the wall but when Jack and Desmond went down to the source of the light it was not a light that engulfed the entire room but just that section where the pool was. So either their is more than one source on the island where that light was coming from, or that spot where MiB was going to put the original wheel was near the source, which would make no sense since he made it clear that he had no idea where the source was, and seemed awfully pissed when Jacob told him that their mother took Jacob back to the source.
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Or there’s pockets of energy fueled by the Light throughout the Island, like they frequently said. Kinda like how a volcano isn’t constantly spewing lava, but you can find molten magma in pockets nearby.
And no, you don’t need a scientific explanation for time travel, because there is none to give.
You are right, it is very possible and likely that there are pockets of light/energy through out the island…but since they never actually said that, then it is up to people to figure out on their own. Which is part of what bugs people.
Just because is not a good enough answer for some people. Neither is, “you don’t need a scientific explanation for time travel, because there is none to give.”
I am not saying I have an issue with those answers, but I can certainly see how some do.
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I laugh at people that get mad that they didn’t explain the time travel. Seriously, people, just get mad that they resorted to time travel in the first place! They even tried to give you AN explanation, even though I’m sure they were sitting in the writer’s room thinking “C’mon people, it’s time travel. We needed it as a narrative device.”
You don’t think an explanation is needed for something that can shift you through time? Make an island move? And send’s someone across the world? You are ok with the notion that just turning a wheel does that?
Then I guess we need an explanation for how Hurley and Miles are able to communicate with dead people, how Desmond is immune to electro-magnetism, how Richard doesn’t age…
We don’t but some people do seem to need that.
And the aging thing was answered. When Jacob made Richard immortal his aging stopped. When Jacob died and his ashes burned out, Richard got a gray hair, signifying that he was starting to age again.
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And the aging thing was answered. When Jacob made Richard immortal his aging stopped. When Jacob died and his ashes burned out, Richard got a gray hair, signifying that he was starting to age again.
=
When you turn the donkey wheel, you end up in Tunisia
When you turn the donkey wheel, you end up in Tunisia.
That’s not an answer, that is a result. And they are not the same thing.
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I’d like to know the connection between the light source getting off the island, yes. I don’t care where it sends you, why the island moves, or even that it creates time travel. Whatever. But I’d love an explanation for how the light source (which, as said below, is apparently just one of many) allows people to leave the island.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Why? It’s not like I’m the one who decided that turning a wheel that may or may not have been directly connected to the source of everything allows for one person to leave the island, but not die from the electromagnetism. If you have a problem with Jack not dying while sitting in the light, how can Ben and Locke get engulfed in this light and just transported to another place?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
My complaint is an inconsistency in fact. We are told that only Desmond could go down there and move the rock. Then Jack went down and moved the rock and suffered no effect.
Ben and Locke both were treated in the exact same way when they did the exact same thing, hence I have no problem with it.
Ok, but all four of them were engulfed in the light. All four of them were engulfed in the light and water. One lives, one gets transported and dies, and two get transported far away. The only difference is a wheel. And that’s enough to explain why Ben and Locke not only don’t die but get transported to Africa?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
But MiB said the wheel would work a system that displaces the light and water. And the source had both the light and the water, and clearly removing the cork seemed to displace the light and water. So they may not occur in the same place but they are apparently part of the same system.
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All of this is getting into details that were never explicitly described. In same way there are clearly things in common. But they are clearly not the same thing.
That’s really all we need to know in order to fully appreciate the story Lost was telling.
That’s the problem. They weren’t explicitly described and thus it is up for interpretation. Some people do seem to need these things in order to full appreciate Lost. You don’t and that’s fine. Doesn’t make you wrong. But it doesn’t make those in the opposite camp wrong either.
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I disagree. I think you can understand the work but still get bothered by certain parts of that work that are not completely explained.
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The way I looked at it
Desmond was the only one who could handle the electromagnetic force. But, when he took the stone off, it was basically “turning off” the heart of the island/forcefield/whatever you want to call it. Because of this, the island started falling apart. Jack was able to replace the stone because the forces were turned off. Once he replaced the stone, the light reappeared, and he got tossed because of the electromagnetism just like the MiB. My only incongruity then, was why didn’t he turn into a smoke monster like the MiB? My likely answer is just so that the enging can parallel the pilot.
by blackhawkeyes on May 26, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with all of this, except I think the psychic did have a moment of clarity thing going on with Claire. From Jacob’s perspective, it’s Claire that is important, not Aaron, and he frequently pull at candidate’s heartstrings to manipulate them. It doesn’t matter if Aaron is important if he’s influencing Claire’s actions. And that crazy-eyed-Locke dream is about as important as “theresa fell up the stairs, theresa fell down the stairs.” It’s an impetus for a character.
Also, it is clear when the ash circle is broken around the cabin? I kinda assumed Jacob chilled there because it was a safe place to meet his pawns, and then someone broke the circle so Smokey could get in, not out.
We know how they were set up for Dharma.
And we know that behind the chess game is how they order food.
I thought it was just like paid for in perpetuity or something.
So, a random contractor was paid years ago to airdrop supplies to an island given the correct bearing and location? Or maybe Ben’s off-island controlled this, and the DHARMA guise was to make sure Des trusted the food? Or DHARMA initiative is active off-island (in Michigan) and is able to find the island and continue the food drops on the assumption that someone has to be man-ing the Swan because the world hasn’t ended yet?
I like any of those explanations, actually.
Let’s just be clear here. You just named three possible scenarios, are okay with any of them (As is Mario), and yet it was “explained pretty clearly”??
Obviously, it wasn’t. Both of you are interpreting it how you want – differently, I might add – and claiming that it was explained by the writers.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t fucking matter. That’s the point. Who gives a shit? They explained enough that there are plenty of perfectly reasonable ways the food drops were made. Who the fuck wants to watch a tv show about a helicopter dropping food on the island? That’s not relevant to the story of Lost.
Man, you get so angry when people disagree with you.
You said they were “explained pretty clearly.” They weren’t. DHARMA doesn’t exist, yet they still produce food with their name and logo on it, fulfill orders for people not involved in DHARMA, and drop it to people who not only aren’t in the defunct-DHARMA program, but didn’t order the food.
That’s not explained clearly. That’s not explained. You clearly don’t care what the explanation is, but you can’t sit there and say it was explained when you don’t even know the explanation.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not clear whether DHARMA still exists, by the way. Just that there presence is not on the island. It’s also not clear that they are the ones who would have to make the drops.
I care what the explanation is, but it doesn’t effect very much about the story, especially since it can be explained pretty conventionally.
How did this whole conversation start? By saying the food drops went unexplained. Mario says they were. Yet here you are, saying “it’s not clear” “It’s also not clear” and “it can be explained”.
It wasn’t explained. Period.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not Mario? I just also happened to respond?
If you two want to have one of your little tiffs, I can leave.
No, I’ve rather enjoyed him being away for the past 2 weeks. I was just pointing out that the three of us have different opinions: Me, that they weren’t explained and that’s a problem; You, that they weren’t explained but can be; Him, that they were explained and we’re all idiots for not realizing it.
You pointing out that they can be explained backed up my position that they weren’t. That is all.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d strengthen by position slightly to “we were given enough information to answer these questions ourselves.” It doesn’t really matter—to the coherency and appreciation of what the creators were trying to do—if the answers are correct or if multiple answers are interchangeable for the same question.
I know you’re saying answers would have been nice, but you need them from some absolute authority? Create them. it’s fun.
No. Again, there are plenty of things that weren’t answered I couldn’t care less about. But there are two things I don’t like: 1) being told things were answered when they clearly weren’t; and 2) that a lot of things were brought up as major and were simply never explained.
I’m not unhappy with the ending, I just wanted more answers than were given.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
And that is pretty much my stance as well. I am good with the ending, but there were clearly things that weren’t answered. Some I care about. Some I dont. And I am sure there are some things I could careless about that others do care about so to act(not saying you are, Snevik because you aren’t) but to act like everything was covered and if it wasn’t then it doesn’t matter is not fair to those who disagree.
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Agreed entirely.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s not explained clearly.
DHARMA
doesn’t exist, yet theystill produce food with their name and logo on it, fulfill orders for people not involved in DHARMA, and drop it to people who not only aren’t in the defunct-DHARMA program, but didn’t order the food.
How much clearer does it need to be? Again, no one wants to watch a television show about people who fly a helicopter and deliver food.
You wait 40 minutes to accuse me of being classless just because I stated that you get angry? You’re apparently also very petty.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you, I’ll continue doing so while you pout in the corner.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well so is just about anything if you are willing to believe it.
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I disagree. Time travel, in this show, is not explainable. You need to suspend your disbelief to allow that conceit.
But boxes of food being dropped? Materially explainable, and all of the explanations I offered are rooted in what the show has given us.
Time Travel is not explainable in this show or any because as of right now it has not even been done. You say suspend your disbelief to allow that conceit and while I don’t disagree that in order for this show and many others to make “sense” you have to disregard things that are not explainable. What I have a problem with is that they ask people to believe notions such as this and at the same time do not explain things that actually could have a very plausible answer. There is an extent to which people are just going to blindly believe without explanation or proof. I guess it’s the whole faith vs science argument that seemed to play a role in the show.
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I think we keep going around in circles on this, because we agree for the most part. I think, not only is it not the writer’s responsibility to answer things—even if the answer is plausible and easy to explain—but that the show would have been significantly worse off had they bothered to. It narrows debate and interpretation of the show, and every time they did go this route, the show became didactic.
Even then, I’m okay with saying “Look, these things weren’t answered.” I’m just pointing out that some of them WERE answered (choose to believe otherwise if you will) or that there are possible answers, so that you shouldn’t let it ruin your opinion of the show.
Well I agree to an extent with that. I will be honest with you, I am a man of science, both by decision and by profession. I am not the type of person to accept answers of “just because”. No one will ever win an argument or change my opinion on anything unless they actually have facts and proof to show me.
Now while that train of thought is how I approach most things, I am certainly willing to look at a tv show, or a movie or a book as works of fiction and in that understand that not everything will make sense or have an answer. Such is the case with Lost. I am ok with the ending of the show because I can accept that as ridiculous as the ending is, it is a tv show and thus does not have to be real. The writers did a great job of answering things that were central to the plot and the message they were trying to deliver but they did a piss poor job of answering the questions that the fans cared about. For months they said on the record that they would answer the things that fans want to know about and answer the questions that are important to the story. They did one of those things. And while I do not believe it is the writers jobs to answer every question and close every plot hole I do believe it is their job to get a better read on what is important to the fans and respond accordingly either in the show or through the other avenues they have. Fans are investing in this show in both time and money, they are owed those things.
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Eh, for months on the record they said “The show is about the characters, not so much the mythology. The last season will be character-centric and not all the questions will be answered.”
Not all fans cared about all the questions, for the record. I don’t care who shot at the outrigger. As for catering to the fans, I believe they did to a great extent (and perhaps too much). Ultimately, it comes down to my favorite argument against people who didn’t like the finale: the creators of this show didn’t owe you shit.
They actually wrote the outrigger scene for season six, but wound up cutting it because they felt its value to the story paled in comparison to the amount of time it took to tell. Unclear if it was shot and could be on the DVD, or scrapped before shooting.
See I disagree that the writers owe nothing to the fans. Like I said, people invest time and money into the show just like people invest time and money into going to say a Flyers game. In both cases, the customers are owed the very best effort possible by the writers and the athletes. And the writers may feel that they are giving their best effort, and an athlete may feel that way as well but sometimes, the fans disagree. It’s just the nature of it.
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They aren’t customers. They are readers. A TV show is a novel, not a create-your-own-adventure.
Similarly, an athlete’s job isn’t to entertain you, it’s to win. Let’s management/TV networks figure out how to get eyes on the product.
What about those that buy the DVD’s and other Lost gear? Those are customers.
I agree, an athletes job is to win, and to win you need to put your best effort in, which is what I stated in the beginning. Short of that, they are failing in their job.
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I think Darlton believe they did put in their best effort. In fact, they said as much about the finale before it was released.
The DVD/gear thing doesn’t change the essential point.
I am not saying they didn’t put forth their best effort, nor do I think you can really prove way or the other that they did, or did not.
But I disagree with your second statement. It is the fans and the money they invest and the time they spend watching the show that allows or gives the writers the opportunity to continue to write the show for as long as they did. Without the fans they would have had nothing. So to say they owe nothing to the fans is not true. They owe everything to the fans.
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They owe everything to the fans.
Is not to say they have to answer to or explain away everything the fans want, they don’t. And I think they did a fine job, but to act that everything important was explained is not only subjective but factual incorrect.
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the ultimate goal for a tv show may not be to please the viewers, but if they don’t please the network and viewers the show gets cancelled.
I’d say the producers are more quivalent to the hockey GM. Their job is to put the best product out there. The players goal is to win, of course, but it’s not that simple for the front office. They need to sell tickets and merchandise to have the money to buy good players.
my point is that I agree the show isn’t responsible to answer every question, but it’s not only that. If the producers follow their vision and the viewers aren’t happy, what will make them watch a new series?
maybe it’s a sad truth, but the reality is everything’s a business. Sure the purpose of a school is education, but colleges are just looking to make money like enery other business. The same can be said for tv shows. Unless you have enough money for a pet project, you have to be monetarily pleasing the network.
by blackhawkeyes on May 26, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No, if you dont please the network and/or get the ratings. LOST did both. More importantly for them, as artists, they did it without compromising the story they wanted to tell.
I agree with you. Everything from the network’s perspective is business, and LOST was good business until the end. From Darlton’s perspective, it was their art. It remained their art all the way to the end.
Did you see Kimmel on Friday night with Damon and Carlton?
He read back to them the pitch they gave ABC to get the show made. Absolutely hilarious. Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P9ezZjnSzc
At the 2 minute mark. Highlights include the following promises that Abrams, Damon, and/or Carlton made to ABC to get the show made:
Is the Show Self-Contained or Serialized?
.
The show is self contained. Seriously, we promise. Yes, the mystery surrounding the island may serve an ongoing and easy to follow mythology, but every episode has a beginning, middle and end. More importantly, the beginning of the next episode presents an entirely new dilemma that requires no knowledge of the episode that preceeded it, except for the rare two parter.
.
This is not lip service, we are absolutely committed to this conceit. Lost can, and will be, just as accessible on a weekly basis as a traditional procedural drama. Viewers will be able to drop in anytime and follow exactly what’s going on in a story context.
I would bold the hilarious parts, but every sentence is entirely ludicrous in retrospect.
3) So the psychic is correct in his forecasting of Claire, but because the writers then decide to just say he’s a fraud, despite being correct about Claire and Aaron means that it’s just a coincidence? Huge backstory about how Claire has to raise the kid is just a waste since she didn’t really have to? Either that’s a plot hole, or really shitty writing.
7) The “perfectly good and reasonable explanation” is that there is no sickness? That quarantine just meant “don’t go out there, you might get killed by the smoke monster” and that DHARMA decided to give Desmond shots so he thought he was protected from infection? Ok, fine, whatever. But the others – who know there is no need to immunize people – kidnapping and injecting Claire with a “placebo” is perfectly good and reasonable? No, no it’s not.
8) So wait: DHARMA can order food through a game of chess. But there was no DHARMA after “the incident”, so the others can order food through the same mechanism. Except the food comes still emblazoned with logos from a company that doesn’t exist any more, and they’re giving it to Desmond? This was explained pretty clearly?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 26, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
3) Or, it explains the moral struggle that Claire went through, all because of some dude who turned out to be full of shit, and explains how she became the character she is today, and explained why she made squirrel baby.
7) The perfectly good and reasonable explanation was that the sickness was people under the influence of the man with no name. The placebo was used to falsely comfort people who were concerned about the sickness.
8) Yes. Just because you choose not to accept the plain and reasonable explanation does not make it any less plain or less reasonable, it only makes your expectations of a fantastical television show less plain and reasonable.
3) I think, per my response, Jacob’s hand in this as a manipulation is pretty clear. It doesn’t matter whether Claire needs to raise Aaron or not.
7) Weren’t the injection related to the fertility issues on the island?
8) Either: a) Mikhail was playing the chess or b) the chess game really didn’t have much to do with the food drops.
1) The numbers were just a weird mystical thing. I have no idea what people wanted answered. The numbers were always just this weird coincidental fact that no one understood. Why does it have to be more than that?
Because they spent HOURS building them up as being a big mystery, and then never paid it off. (Incidentally, for anybody claiming they didn’t, please watch Lost)
Let’s compare this to a REALLY WELL WRITTEN SHOW in Mad Men. Lots of the first season were spent building up the question of “Who is Don Draper?” You know what they did? They answered it! It was emotionally satisfying. That’s the difference between fun TV and art.
2) What more did they need to say about Walt? He’s just another of the characters (Like Desmond, Farraday, etc) who have some sort of super-human ability. It manifested in interesting ways. And then he went on to a normal life.
Go back and watch the first season of Lost. Ignore all the Walt stuff, tell me how much time you had to spend ignoring the show. They spent a lot of time building up the idea that Walt was “special” and, five years later, that’s still all we have.
“Oh, he was special”
“How?” “Who cares?”
“Why?” “Who cares?”
“What impact did it have on anyone’s life?” “Oh, see, in a really tangential way, he was kidnapped -”
“Why?” “Who cares? – by these people who then conducted experiments on him-”
“Why would they do that?” “Who cares? – and when they released him his father shot some people which caused Hurley to be upset.”
3) A psychic, who was admittedly full of shit, made a big deal about Aaron. The psychic was shown to be full of shit, hence the big deal was just bullshit. Point resolved.
I mostly agree (although that was a big point in Season One) except that this was an important point in establishing the characters of both Claire and Aaron. Although the explanation of “Jacob made this stuff up and magically used the psychic to get her on the plane” is an acceptable retconning.
4) Is "What is up with the cabin" really a hole in the plot?
No, except it was a major plot point in seasons 3 and 4. But I’m fine with being able to infer stuff here.
I feel similarly with most of the other ones, but there were so many plot points abandoned. As fun as the ride was, it holds up terribly upon reviewing, and that’s even before “They all get to party in heaven!” became part of the story.
Where it really kills the story is when it makes character motivations incredibly hollow or pointless. Oh well, that’s entertainment.
by The DTrain on May 26, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because they spent HOURS building them up as being a big mystery, and then never paid it off. (Incidentally, for anybody claiming they didn’t, please watch Lost)
They were exactly what they were portrayed as. Weird, mystical, events. If you want, you can believe it was the force of the island guiding Jacob to discover which of his candidates were most worthy to succeed him. Everything doesn’t have a scientific explanation.
Let’s compare this to a REALLY WELL WRITTEN SHOW in Mad Men.
A show that is entirely different from Lost in almost every way. Lost is mystical fiction. Mad Men is historical fiction.
So let’s not.
"How?" "He had a telekinetic ability which he couldn’t control.Who cares?"
"Why?""Who cares?"If you want to know why Walt was special, then you want to know why Desmond was special, and Hurley was special, and Miles was special, why John Locke could walk and Rose was cured of cancer, and this wasn’t a show you should’ve been watching after the first season.
"What impact did it have on anyone’s life?""Oh, see, in a really tangential way, he was kidnapped -"
Your answer is a complete non sequiter to the question. Walt’s powers enabled him to communicate a message to John Locke without which we would’ve had a completely different show. Also, they may or may not have allowed him to use the Others’ computer to communicate with Michael, which again was a pivotal plot point that led too several episodes worth of plot development. Just to name two instances of the impact.
The real question about hurley:
How did he never lose weight on the island?
by blackhawkeyes on May 26, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Look, no offense, but the fan boys (which you’re a part of, clearly) keep trying to wave your hand and say either:
“I don’t need to know!” or “Wizard did it!”
Those aren’t really acceptable for drama.
And if you want to find Mad Men as being disanalagous, let’s use the Lord of the Rings, shall we.
Tolkien was an excellent writer. He took incredible pain staking attempts to lay out his universe. Even in the movie adaptations, which do not have nearly the details of the books, still do an excellent job creating a universe in which the characters’ actions provide dramatic purpose.
If the plot was “There’s this ring, it’s powerful, and if that Eye gets it, we’re doomed!” most people likely would have said “Wait, what?”
Likewise, I don’t need to know HOW Gandalf is a wizard. I don’t need to know HOW Elvish magic works. But it’s very clear that this universe includes wizards (who are a separately defined group that have powers) and Elves (who are also separately defined and have certain powers). Why do they have those powers? Because they’re part of a group that does. If you can’t see how, dramatically, that is a much more effective explanation then I can’t help you.
And also, let’s answer your points really quickly:
You’re forgetting that Walt was also telepathic. What else was he? Who cares, right?
And yes, I do want to know why other people are special. If I really need to explain to you why and what it dramatically robs the narrative of, then dickering over “quality art” vs. “cheap entertainment” is a little pointless.
Lost is not analogous to LOTR, either. Its not science fiction. The characters in Lord of the Rings were just a part of the plot, with only Bilbo, as I recall, having much development. Lost took almost a dozen characters and spent more than an hour, and sometimes six or eight hours, flushing out their entire past, present, and future.
A show most analogous to lost would be Battlestar Galactica. But even Battlestar was only about 50% character driven.
As far as a show as character driven as Lost, I’d say Breaking Bad. And in Breaking Bad we have all sorts of coincidences which for the development along.
I disagree with whether it’s science fiction. I think it can be character-centric in a fantasy/sci-fi world.
Thats the distinction I’m making.
There’s science fiction. Then there’s character based fiction with a sci fi backdrop.
The latter is what Battlestar was. Lost was more like The Time Traveller’s Wife (amazing novel, crappy movie) than it was like Battlestar.
Never would have taken you for a sci fi nerd.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Well I did watch all of the above except Potter. And I only watched LOTR because I enjoyed the books. But you did watch Battlestar…that’s pretty sci fi. Great show.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
1) Mad Men still hasn’t answered who Don Draper is. That’s one of the reasons it is a great show. Of course, comparing these two shows is a stupid exercise, since they are only similar in the fact that they are both TV shows. Besides, they did answer what the numbers are. We just don’t know why they are so prevalent in the universe.
2) I’m not sure what they could have done to satisfy you on this question. He showed you he is psychic. That’s fairly special.
3) I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic here. If you’re not satisfied with Jacob manipulating people, then giving you more answers wouldn’t satisfy you.
4) The cabin was never a plot point. It was a vessel for visiting Jacob.
1) Mad Men still hasn’t answered who Don Draper is. That’s one of the reasons it is a great show. Of course, comparing these two shows is a stupid exercise, since they are only similar in the fact that they are both TV shows. Besides, they did answer what the numbers are. We just don’t know why they are so prevalent in the universe.
I don’t want to have to put up a spoiler tag for Mad Men, but Don Draper’s identity and past has been explained far more than anything on Lost. And every time we learn something new it helps clarify his actions and invests them with more significance. I agree its not fair to compare them because one is legitimately art and one is entertainment, but yes, you can compare drama to drama. Hell, all drama since Aeschylus follows certain basic patterns.
As for the numbers, they were never explained. When fans have to do it on their own, and rely on “A wizard did it” that doesn’t cut it.
2) I’m not sure what they could have done to satisfy you on this question. He showed you he is psychic. That’s fairly special.
Again, when I say “Why?” I don’t mean “Explain the physics!” I mean “Why Walt?” When you say “Just cause” its poor writing. If I have to import the mythos from a Stan Lee comic book to make this coherent, it’s poor writing.
3) I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic here. If you’re not satisfied with Jacob manipulating people, then giving you more answers wouldn’t satisfy you.
Except for the fact that this is the ultimate “A Wizard Did It!” answer. Which creates the problem of the inconsistent characterizations of Jacob as being omniscient, omnipotent, somewhat helpless and dull, as well as both malevolent and benevolent.
4) The cabin was never a plot point. It was a vessel for visiting Jacob.
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob’s_cabin
I find it hilarious how, even after the show is over, the fans are still split into the Locke and Jack camps, just now over the show itself. Why is it so easy to believe Snevik?
First off, I think we’ve evolved and mixed genres a bit since the days of Aeschylus. Nothing about Mad Men and LOST is the same, from budget, to character development, etc. Not that this matters. Name dropping Greeks doesn’t impress me as much as it did my English professors (although I would be fairly impressed if you nailed the spelling without Google’s help).
I’m not going to be able to answer any questions or problems you have with this show, because it’s all going to boil down to People Being Special. Jacob, Walt, Jack, Locke…whoever. It’s a fantasy sci-fi adventure show. You know how in Potter/Lord of the Rings/whatever something is true because it is written somewhere. well, Jacob wrote some names on the wall. In this world, that’s all the explanation you need.
Cutting the tension...
Since you are all going all out about this, I figured I’d lighten the mood with something a friend sent my way. Poor Vincent :)
btw – I loved the show, loved the finale, but understand why plenty of folks were upset that questions were unanswered and (perhaps) wish we could’ve gotten some of those answers. But if you’ve read the Wheel of Time for 15 years (or more) like I have, you get used to having questions unanswered…
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