Why Don Cherry is wrong about Dan Carcillo
by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 3:45 PM EDT
in 2010 NHL Playoffs
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PrintLet's start by saying one thing. When Dan Carcillo dives without getting touched, it's embarrassing. Even when it's effective, it's embarrassing. Carcillo needs to stop that stuff. What else is embarrassing, though, is the way Don Cherry ranted about Carcillo last night on CBC.
The video:
Cherry complains about the diving towards the end there, and that part we can all agree with. But to call Carcillo out for not fighting a goon like Orr and to call Carcillo out for drawing a penalty on Marc Savard, one of the Bruins best players? That makes us laugh at you, Don.
Talk all you want about Carcillo being a "bully" and a "coward," but there's nothing embarrassing about baiting a dumb hockey player into a penalty. As we wrote the day after that incident with Orr happened...
Carcillo's intelligent play came to a head on Sunday night, as he stood in and accepted abuse from Toronto's Colton Orr without retaliation. It was the perfect reaction to Orr's advances in that situation. Orr had been at Carcillo's back for about five seconds, shoving him several times as the Flyer skated toward his bench. An initial cross-check penalty had already been called on Orr and Carcillo certainly noticed.
As he reached the boards, he turned to face Orr, who then engaged him with a few shoves to the upper body. As the linesman stepped in to peel Orr off of number 13, a frustrated Orr took one final swing at Carcillo's head. Another two minute penalty for roughing was rightfully handed out to the goon who, as Carcillo pointed out post game, doesn't really have much else on which to fall back.
Four minutes in power play time were the result of Orr's stupidity and Carcillo's brilliance. But please, Don, continue to take the context out of your terrible argument.
And there's nothing wrong with baiting a star player into a penalty, either. Carcillo's job is to get under the skin of the opposition, getting them off of their game. He does that by not fighting Orr and he does that by going after Savard in a scrum. It's effective, it doesn't disrespect the game, and it's laughable that Cherry has a problem with it.
We already knew Don Cherry was a laughing stock anyway, though, so I guess this really isn't news.
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I totally agree with Cherry about most of this.
I dont think Carcillo should have been suspended though.
It was funny to watch with Orr ;)
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions
You’re a Boston fan, of course you agree.
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by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
I am a complete and total homer and proud of it
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re a Philly fan, of course you don’t.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 7, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re drunk and Irish, aren’t you? And in some sort of organized crime organization….
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by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
all three are incorrect, but I’ll be fixing the first one soon enough.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 7, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
Go Bruins
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Imma PhillyPhan
http://www.easports.com/player-hub/360/zsmooth0 - (NHL 10)
Might not have been born in Philadelphia, but sure got the attitude.
congrats
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
cherry dresses in clothes he found in the trashcan when the circus cirque de solei left town
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
lol
I will agree with this
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been a fan of Carbomb since day one, and I have to say, I really don’t like his acting and huge-embelishments lately. I can respect that he’s trying to help his team and piss other guys off, but c’mon now…
I love his smart style of play, especially against Orr. I love his tenacity and his drive out there, but I’d also like to see him drop the gloves again!
Don Cherry is an idot! Everything he does is for shock value, and he rarely has a good point. As the article said, the flick of the head back from carbomb in that Devils game was embarassing, but there was nothing wrong with the other two incidents, especially the one with Orr. If he can’t see that, then he needs to shut his mouth.
i AGREE with him on head shots, and that teams should police themselves again (get rid of instigator penalty). Other than that… Not too much. He’s got a hard on for Carcillo. Wonder if he was that upset when Barnaby played. Or Essa Tikanen.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
Orr has 3 inches and 20 pounds on Carcillo. Carcillo has two inches and 10 pounds on Savard. “His own size” is closer to Savard than Orr.
by thasmin on May 7, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
This makes Cherry’s rant even more hilarious. Excellent.
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by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
this is true.
But the point is Savard does not fight.
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And Carcillo is not a heavy weight like Orr. This team hasn’t had a legitimate heavyweight on this team since maybe Brashear. But every one still thinks the Flyers are bullies.
Just Call Me "M"!
Hartnell, Carcillo, Richards, Pronger…. you can see why.
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
But…but…but…the Bruins are all angels!! /rolls eyes
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luuko
Exactly!
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Hartnell and Carcillo are basically caricatures of themselves, neither is a real fighter that demands respect when needed. Richards will pick his spots if you have your head down and and only fights for momentum, plus he is 5-10, 180 pounds (soaking wet). And Pronger wasn’t even close to being the dirtiest, nastiest player in the NHL until brushing up against the moniker in the playoffs. Flyers being hard to play against let alone being tough, mean or nasty is a myth.
Just Call Me "M"!
I guess
Im just bias
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s been evident around here since about… Saturday or so.
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by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
Most everyone is bias for their team. I see no reason to be ashamed of it.
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the problem here, is that EVERYONE at the NHL has looked at the embellishments, and right now the only way Carbomb is drawing a penalty, is if he comes up spewing blood and spitting out what teeth he has left - and even then there’s a 50-50 that he’s not gonna get a call. What we need from him right now, is to throw the body around, and lead the physical assault we’re gonna need if we have any chance left in this series. He also seems to play better when he’s just doing the basics.
Don Cherry was a troll before people started calling people trolls.
Maybe I’m not as hockey savvy as some of you guys but here’s the way I see it. I saw Cherry’s other discussion on this and he preached about Carcillo going after the “star” players on a hockey team, and how that’s just not done and destroys the integrity of the game. Bull shit. If I was Carcillo, I’d find their best player and draw him into a fight every chance I had. Goons are usually poorer players, not all of them, but many of them. Why take a guy off the ice for 5 minutes who isn’t going to factor in that much? I’d pick on the Kanes, the Crosby’s, and yes the Savards. I’d goad them into a fight and then watch their offense struggle without them. More over, if I did get them to jump into fight with me, I’d beat their ass so they’d have to be taken out of the game.
That’s the point of winning by intimidation. If their best player is afraid of your line combination and can’t perform well, then it’s effective. Just watching one goon beat on another goon is fun for the crowd but is not nearly as effective to destroying a teams offense.
Cherry is right! If this junk went on against the Flyers most of this fan base would have their tin foil hats out crying about league injustice. Which I do believe in a lot of cases, but I can’t defend this crap. No matter what a blow hard Cherry is, there is no place for this at all. Drawing penalties has nothing to do with diving or faking injury! This is why the Flyers are no longer an intimidating team, and haven’t been in 20 years.
Just Call Me "M"!
That’s what I said… Carcillo never took a dive in the Savard or Orr incidents.
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by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Cherry said he took a dive in either of those situations, either.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 7, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It is not just about diving. It is about the antics and running around screaming like a nut. These are not proud moments when he is screaming ridiculously over the top language from the bench. I am not saying he has to go out and fight a Colton Orr because that is ludicrous, he is not a heavyweight fighter, but as a penalty drawer he falls way short of having the savvy it takes to be good at it.
Also, when LeTang got bit it was preposterous to me that he and his daddy (Bylsma) were standing by the bench holding his hand waiting for a ref to come over like a whining mommy looking for the school principal. I can’t accept crying about biting from someone on my squad……..EVER!
Just Call Me "M"!
So you’re the only Philly fan that doesn’t like Carcillo?
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 7, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree. i’ve slowly become a fan of carcillo’s play, however, this is something that, at least from what i noticed, has increased. i like his all out play. i like the effort. i hate watching a guy act like he needs to be fit for dentures because he felt a breeze blow by his face. curling up on the ice and covering his face when there was no contact is unsportsmanlike. it has nothing to do with who else does it or how long its been going on. i don’t care that at times, his antics work to our benefit. if you are going to be a pest and draw penalties (like in the Orr clip), then do it. get under people’s skin.
i’m curious how people would feel if neither of those phony high stick calls were made and carcillo crumbled to the ice holding his face pretending he was mortally wounded while the opposing team scored. would his effort in attempting to draw a penalty be considered anything other than absolutely stupid?
Carcillo takes dives and does it frequently enough that it is an obvious potential issue. As good as he has been at controlling when he takes penalties, it is only a matter of time before refs begin looking past his embellishments or worse, call him for diving.
Don Cherry is an unfortunate personality for hockey. He is a cartoon, a caricature. He rarely provides any thoughtful or meaningful commentary or analysis. I have no issue with him taking an issue with Carcillo in respect to diving, in fact I agree with him. Drawing penalties to me is one thing, faking a stick to the face is another. There are more interesting ways to criticize this than elementary school mockery, and I seriously question the decision to keep Cherry on the air if that is the most interesting examination he can provide.
Cherry is there as a show, as entertainment. Cherry’s segments are the Piper’s Pit of HNIC. He isn’t intended to be relevant or right. He is meant to draw attention and create a spectacle, with little regard for cogency or validity of argument. If the issue is that Cherry is perceived as some sort of expert, than I would contest that that is an issue with the perceiver. If one realizes that Don Cherry is the equivalent of a fart joke, then they should realize his statements are less arguments than something to make those unwilling to look further than chuckling at childish name calling and questioning a player’s manhood.
by beatniche on May 7, 2010 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Actually the playoffs is when he started diving, I have never seen him dive before this. It is embarrassing, and I think Flyers fans are going a little to far in defending it simply because the other arguments against him are absolutely retarded.
If Shawn Thornton got Mike Richards or Marian Gaborik(5 mins) off the ice Boston fans would love it, it’s simple Carcillo helped the team there.
by You don't have to be sweet, to be good on May 7, 2010 4:49 PM EDT reply actions
I disagree that this began during the playoffs. At the final game of the season, Geoff and I had a discussion about Carcillo’s diving, so at least the two of us noticed it prior to the start of the playoffs. I remember several instances from last season in which I saw Carcillo attempt to draw penalties through embellishing.
I also disagree that it is because it is Carcillo. I’ve come around to him after disliking his play in the first half of the season and the end of last season. Carcillo’s action may have helped his team in the short term, but taking a two handed tomahawk chop to Rask’s face would provide some benefit to the team. It is, in either case, unethical play. If we want to put aside the fact that the act benefited the Flyers and ask ourselves whether players should be crawling on the ice pretending their faces have been decimated by phantom blows regardless of who they play for and if that deserves a place in hockey, the answer is no.
He essentially lost respect when he drew the penalty on Orr in the Toronto game. He is not a skilled player who should be looking around for the ref when faced with Orr like that. Again he is not big enough to square off and stage a fight with Orr, but in that situation he needs to get his gloves off.
Just Call Me "M"!
I think some of these comments aren’t noticing the nuance in what I wrote above.
Cherry’s argument was two fold. 1) Carcillo is a joke for diving and 2) Carcillo is a coward for not fighting Orr and “picking on” Savard.
We all (I think) agree with the first part whole-heartedly. My complaint with Cherry and anybody who agrees with him is about the second part and only the second part.
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Yea, I see what you are saying so let me retool my statements. Yes Carcillo is a coward for not fighting Orr on both occasions. He is not a heavyweight that should stage a face off fight with a guy that size , but if you are face to face with a guy and you are willing to drop the gloves on most occasions then you should honor the code not try to draw the penalty. It just shows a lack of character. Savard drawing a penalty by not dropping the gloves in a scrum is acceptable he is a skill player. But a toothless maniac that will punch a guy before he has his gloves off when he is face to face with a guy with his hands around his neck and jumping the ref as if he has been done dirty should fight. A little scattered I know.
Just Call Me "M"!
Then we just have a different opinion, I guess. I see no problem with not fighting Orr there because you’re getting four minutes of PP time if you choose not to go there. I believe it was a tie game at that point, and that’s just absolutely huge.
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by Travis Hughes on May 7, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He should be drawing extra penalty minutes from guys while getting his hands dirty with his sleeves rolled up. He is not of the ilk to draw full intimidation penalties from fighters. And really the only thing the refs did when they sent Savard to the box was help the Bruins because they should have called Carcillo for 2 minutes roughing and Savard 2 minutes for slashing and 2 minutes for roughing. Which would have gotten Savard off the ice for 4 minutes, but he doesn’t garner that much respect.
Just Call Me "M"!
no they didnt make the extra roughing calls and coincidental minors BECAUSE savard slashed the goalie and that’s a huge unwritten no no in hockey and punishment is usually dealt with on the ice and with the players. refs allow a little player justice once in a while
Yea but the point is if they had any respect for Carcillo they would have gotten Savard off the ice for 4 minutes. That is the trade off you want from a player like what Carcillo is trying to be. Trading two minutes of Carcillo for 4 minutes of Savard is a job well done, get it?
Just Call Me "M"!
no respect… carcillo gets no respect at all…
by fitzy first on May 7, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
because they should have called Carcillo for 2 minutes roughing and Savard 2 minutes for slashing and 2 minutes for roughing.
You realize that if they had called that, the two roughing minors should have cancelled out anyway?
Under Rule 19 for coincidental minor penalties, whenever multiple penalties are assessed to one of the teams, they cancel as many penalties as they can. So if two teams are at even strength, and each team has 1 player get 1 minor for something, then they play 4 on 4. But as soon as there are multiple penalties involved, such as Savard getting 2 + 2 in your scenario, they start canceling whatever they can. So then Carcillo’s 2 for roughing and Savard’s 2 for roughing cancel out, and Savard goes to the box for his 2 for slashing. There’s a whole table in the rulebook, Table 17, that explains every possible canceling scenario. It’s a pretty tough system to keep track of.
by DragonGirl0583 on May 9, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
i have to disagree about the code. regardless of whether you are willing to fight ‘on most occasions’ , each situation has its own set of relevant circumstances. if the standard is ‘you are often willing to fight and so i as a fighter am challenging you and you must agree to fight’ does not make sense if it isn’t evaluated in the context of the situation. even if carcillo were averaging a fighting major a game, there is no code that should require him to fight when challenged if that code could be a detriment to his team.
i dont’ think any code makes it carcillo’s responsibility to ensure that orr and he receive equal penalties when he is challenged regardless of game circumstances.
by beatniche on May 7, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 7, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t want to come off as an argumentative jerk but that is the code. Carcillo not fighting in a spontaneous situation like that is why he is not honorable. The team would be more inspired, more respectable if Carcillo fought in that situation rather than worrying about taking a lousy penalty in a meaningless mid season game. The code is about respect and Carcillo didn’t gain any with that display.
Just Call Me "M"!
You argumentative jerk!
I kid, because I care.
I get your point, but respect is something that is subjective. What you are describing is an objective code with very subjective methods of arriving at the code. If Carcillo, midway through the season, began taking significantly less fighting majors than he had in the beginning of the season, would he then be no longer subject to following the code because he now no longer fits into the category of someone who more often then not is willing to fight? What if all Carcillo’s previous fights were fought in accordance with the idea that he wouldn’t hurt the team if they were in a situation where the game was potentially in the balance? If Orr had not been penalized for the offense, and Carcillo had continued to play through, would he still be in violation of the code for not accepting a challenge? Is anyone who is challenged within a game that has a history of fighting majors and refuses to fight violating a code and therefor dishonorable?
i have faith i can take your responses (and you mine) civilly, so don’t feel you need to apologize for differing opinions.
First, the only reason Carcillo would start to take significantly less penalties is if he changed his name and entered witness protection. He is who he is and it don’t rhyme with etzky.
Second the idea of fighting and code has nothing to do with penalties hurting the team. The idea is regardless of the outcome a message is sent which has instant results and distant results. Did schultz having 497 minutes in penalties hurt the flyers in the 70’s. Your team rises above the cost because the message is clear and a level of intensity is set. A perfect example of setting a time and the team falling in line is last years rangers that were up on the capitals 3-1 while Avery was raping and pilaging. The team responded killing penalties and the caps were having no part of dealing with it and were content with going home. The that idiot tortalini emasculated Avery and the team and all of a sudden no one knew what their roles was and they lost the unity they had and lost the series.
It is about riles and guys playing those roles and when a team of guys doesn’t really know what their roles are you complacency creeps in and the whole thing goes in the shitter. The team accepts carcillo’s role and plays accordingly in response to it.
Just Call Me "M"!
by MJDII on May 8, 2010 7:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
agreed, that’s Cherry’s ultimate bias as a purist in the “Canadian” hockey world… If you’re not on his list of favorites then guys like carcillo and perhaps avery get criticized for doing the dirty things on the ice for his team. aforementioned arent the only ones. he criticizes most anyone who’s last name isnt Crosby
he did pick on Savard, and I did not like it
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Because if that was Vladimir Sobotka slashing Brian Boucher instead of Savard and the exact same thing happens, he would have been “picking” on Sobotka, and you wouldn’t like it?
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 7, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I still would not like that. Sobotka rules.
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by bestbostonsports on May 7, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
And I don’t like someone whacking at Boucher. Especially since he’s awesome.
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by Geoff Detweiler on May 7, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pick on Savard? Seriously? These are men playing NHL Hockey, not kids on a playground.
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by Mike B on D on May 10, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
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