Tuesday Morning Fly By: Recapping a Loss
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 10:40 AM EDT
in Morning Fly By
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- Recaps of last night's loss: [BSH] [Second City Hockey] [NHL.com] [DelcoTimes] [CSNPhilly] [The700level] [Puck Daddy]
- Some post-game controversy as Chris Pronger and Ben Eager exchange words and a towel: [CSNPhilly] [The700level] [DelcoTimes] [Puck Daddy]
- The Flyers want to play Game 3 like they played the third period last night: [CSNPhilly]
- An interview with Jeremy Roenick: [DelcoTimes] [In The Room]
- Highlights from Gary Bettman's press conference: [From the Rink]
- Patrick Thoresen has left the KHL and is looking to return to the Flyers. [EuroFlyers]
- Scoring chances for Game 2. Truly fantastic work. [The Copper & Blue]
- Post-game quotes from Kimmo Timonen and Ville Leino. [EuroFlyers]
- Lastly, the Flyers are apparently not going to sign Jacob De Serres, who will be free to sign with any other team. [Luber's Lounge]
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Umm, any ideas on why are we not keeping DeSerres? Give him a freakin 1-way AHL deal if they want, but he had an incredible run this year, I’m confused about why we’re letting him walk.
Sorry, hit post before my second part.
Unless he was asking way too much money or something that isn’t mentioned, but that’s not the way the article sounds to me. That article makes it sound like there wasn’t even much talk.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 1, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t know why. Pretty frustrating.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Not going to be able to keep all the goalies Backlund, DeSerres, Riopel the guys in Europe etc etc. there is a log jam at goalie someone is going to have to go. Geoff you a full story of this issue would be nice I would wait for after the finals though to put it together. There are only 4 spots 2 in the AHL and 2 at the NHL for all these guys who aren’t junior eligible I don’t think we can fit them all.
Don’t forget about the ECHL.
But I’m glad you said that because I’ve been thinking about writing one for awhile now. Guess I’d have to learn more about Brian Stewart.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
How would want an ECHL contract though. Not memorial cup goalies for sure. Any chance that they can trade his rights or anything for a forward in a similar situation or a late draft pick.
Nope, too late. Without signing him by today, he’s a free agent.
And I’m not saying De Serres deserves the ECHL, but who’s to say Brian Stewart comes straight out of college and earns an AHL job more than De Serers? Nobody, so I’d rather have both in the system, professionally, just in case.
But maybe the Flyers don’t think anybody will sign him, and after another year in Brandon (which is still a possibility, I was unaware) the Flyers try to sign him. Maybe, but I doubt he’ll ever wear orange and black.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
we got beat.
onto game 3.
/fighting off urge to yell about refs who blew the whistle too early
Eat what the monkey eats, then eat the monkey. -U.S. Navy survival guidance
funny, i thought that was a very early whistle as well and should have been a goal, but oh well.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
blew the whistle too early
Funny, the Hawks fans were complaining about early whistles in the first…
Right because10 200 lb men travelling at up to speeds of 30 mph on a near frictionless surface while chasing a hard rubber disc with lumber they use to whack the thing up to speeds of 90+ mph doesn’t introduce chance into the game. We played a better game but the law of averages didn’t favor us. That’s why you play 7 games.
Funny youtube video from last night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zjzxP3utNM&feature=player_embedded
Funny parody of the history will be made…
No! Don't do it!
I lived in Chicago for 5 years. I had enough of dealing with those people. They passive aggressive. They act all nice to you in front of your face, when you turn your back, the knives come out.
The Blackhawks didn’t exist when I lived there. No one went to games or cared. And the old man Wirtz excuse is BS. They didn’t win, so they didn’t care.
SCH folk are already here spouting their version of the way it is
The bandwagon Blackhawk fans are piling in here now at the local pizzeria for the games. They all have their Chicago jerseys and hats but couldn’t name one Blackhawk line to save their souls. When they show old clips of hockey during intermission they get all confused about who the players are LOL.
Shit, when they showed Bobby Hull and Makita at the game last night most of these numb nuts didn’t even know who they were. Freaking amazing.
Just a chew toy for the hockey gods
Same type of fans
That show up to Wrigley and couldn’t name half the Cubs
These fans are like some dallas fans I know they think dallas’ first bad ass QB was Aikman.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Jun 1, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus. Doesn’t this kind of moaning just get boring after a while? Wouldn’t it be more fun just to have some good back-n-forth banter … like real banter?
HcukNZ> I think this would be a great idea for Games 3 and 4, one site hosting each or something. It is the SCF after all. Good idea.
Warning: knife will come out after I know you’re gone.
www.mjt.org
Agreed — discussing the games is much more interesting than debating who knows what about hockey. I wish I’d proposed this at the start of the SCF, before this chirping got so out of hand, but TBH I was thinking that the home team on ice should be the home blog, and unfortunately the Flyers’ .500 regular season record may have been enough to host games 1-2 in the ECF but not in the SCF.
Whaddya think, bloglords? Can we manage a civil single-site discussion about hockey?
I think you're wrong.
Would you argue that Ben Eager adds nothing? ‘Cause I’ll happily take that goal back, and continue Game 2 from there. Carcillo brought exactly his game to the Finals – hard hitting that motivates his teammates and clears ice for Richie and Gags. Why exactly Lavvy didn’t keep him with those two linemates I don’t understand. In 16 games Carbomb has 6 points – the same point total as Kopecky, or the same as the SUM of Ladd, Eager, and Burish (in a combined 44 playoff games for those last three). Aside from the mistaken hit on Carter, Carcillo played a good game – even including the (WEAK) unsportsmanlike call.
I think the disparate reactions to goals alone would make it worth it. (ie HOSSAAAA!!!! FUCK FUCK Hossa! FUCK)
er, you guys are okay with swearing over here, right?
My only worry would be comment count/lag issues.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on Jun 1, 2010 12:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The tally so far...
Three BSHers who are against it
Three SCHers who are for it
I wonder what that means. I guess it means we’re nice guys who you want to come hang out with, and you’re a bunch of dirtbags who we want nothing to do with. :)
I think what it means is that the home team is now down 0-2 — and we’re worried about any more potential losses and having our noses rubbed in it. Whether that threat is only perceived or real, the fact is that some people are more sensitive after a loss and any comment can be taken as gloating; it only takes one overreaction to set off a firestorm.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Count me as for it
I’ve had good experiences over there for the most part…it’s pretty easy as long as you know when to roll your eyes and let things go (a staple of any sports blog/message board, really). Everyone’s going to see the game through their own colored glasses, but as long as we can all agree to not be a jerk* there’s no reason this shouldn’t work out.
*-In game reactions to big plays aside…sometimes you just gotta let it out.
Though JFein brings up a good point about bandwidth/length in the comment threads. Both sites positively crawl when games are on because there’s so much participation.
Not sure about your sample size...
The SCHers that are for it just happen to be the ones adventurous enough to already be over here.
I'm sure this applies elsewhere too
but based on some people’s reactions, maybe more on SCH?
I always say that people who come over to visit need to bring a salt lick with them and a functional sarcasm meter. It runs rampant there, and can feel offensive if you don’t pick up on it right away.
Why are you spreading lies again?
Sarcasm meter, like one of those exist!
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm must sound like a whole different person on SCH
i know i’m a HELL of a lot snarkier there, but I also don’t expect anyone to take the comments seriously — forgetting of course that absolutely anyone can waltz in there, read the comments, and misinterpret them without the the sarcasm mode engaged.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I definently tone it down
On other sites. For one do not want to be an ass or troll, and two not start fights and wars.Three not to use to many SCH terms and confuse the masses.
“a” threw them for a loop yesterday
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
This is pure comedy
SCH dishes it out when the visit other forums but when someone from another team visits their forum they shout them down and boo them, even when the person is not trolling.
They have no sense of humor at SCH unless you part of the inner circle. They shout down one of their own for posting pics and then go on to post pics themselves. WTH? That place is the definition of an inbred clique.
Just a chew toy for the hockey gods
have you noticed...
that we talk to visitors to our forum the same way we talk to each other? that’s b/c at the end of the day, we don’t take each other too seriously — and if we step on each others toes, we have a group therapy session and work out all our feelings about it.
But yes, the sense of humor there (and there IS one) requires a pretty thick skin. And it can be a really stark change for people not used to it. But like i said on the other thread, if you stand your ground, make your points articulately, and take a few shots at the banter, we’ll respect you.
Lots of people don’t stick around long enough for that, but go talk to ZenPop (Sharks fan). He hung in there, took his licks well (and fought with wit back on every last quip we sent his way) and we all have a great deal of respect for him now.
It’s just a really different atmosphere there, that’s all.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
oh and before you post a response
i’m not replying again to you. I see no reason to escalate this on a neutral thread. SCH had a Caps fan and Pens fan going at it a bit yesterday, and we asked them to stop (and they politely did). Similarly, i’m sure the last thing BSH wants or needs is a Hawks fan and Blues fan trading quips here.
And if you have an issue with anything I’ve just said, come find me on SCH, I’m around pretty often.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
oops….“Caps fan and FLYERS fan going at it” is what i meant to say. Sorry fylersfaninchicago, meant no disrespect.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, the notorious SCH passive/aggressive behavior
yours truly,
crosbycrushinwrigleyville
by flyersfaninchicago on Jun 2, 2010 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
i’m sure the last thing BSH wants or needs is a Hawks fan and Blues fan trading quips
That would be the Rays Joe Maddon arguing with himself.
In a photo, the Rays sported the Blackhawks jerseys, with a sprinkling of Team USA, Bruins, or other alternatives.
Maddon chose a hockey theme to honor Toronto. He grew up in Scranton as a St. Louis Blues fan and planned to go the Blues route himself.
The Rays are all a bunch of douchebags if you ask me. All wearing Hawks jerseys because of some supposed rivalry they have with Philly…whatever. They can all EABOD.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
EABOD = eat a bag of dicks?
I mean, the hawks offered them jerseys, too, so I guess the appeal of free stuff doesn’t go away just because you’re making millions. And free press, etc etc.
I’d forgotten the Phillies played the Rays, to be honest.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on Jun 2, 2010 10:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Meh, they came out and said they wanted to show their distaste for all things Philly and yes, they can eat a bag of dicks for it. They’re just bitter that they were favored in 2008 and the Phils beat them anyway. Not like Tampa Bay hasn’t beaten us in pretty much every important series last decade leading up until that point.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I'll say I'm for it, but with a warning
I know some over at SCH who have avoided going on to other teams’ sites for fear of what they might say, arguments they might get into, etc… And several San Jose fans in the last series expressed frustration at other fans coming on their site b/c it was supposed to be a safe space for Sharks fans (which leads me to think some fans on BSH and SCH might think the same).
But then again, it could be a fun experiment. Or just an EPIC disaster waiting to happen…in which case, still entertaining.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, we did it with PensBurgh last year* during the playoffs
It got a bit snarky at times, yes, but both sides found a way to survive. And if we can survive doing it with one of our rivals, I’m sure we’ll find a way to co-exist with ’Hawks fans.
I’m down for it, if we get it organized in time – I’m fairly even-keel (if often sarcastic) when it comes to posting online, so it won’t bother me either way.
* – At least I think it was last year. Dear god I’m getting old…
"I did my walk of shame this morning and everyone was so much nicer," she said. "People were inviting me to parties at 9 a.m."
well if it worked before
then by all means, it could be fun.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I would not have a problem, but we have grown to be a pretty large size community and SCH, from what I have seen, is an even bigger community. I have no problem with the people, but the sheer volume of comments may make things difficult to keep track of, plus you can only have so much bandwidth before your computer goes haywire.
If we do it, that’s fine, but I worry about those who struggle to keep up with the comments and/or have computers/browsers that can’t take the large bandwidth that will surely come from both blogs using 1 thread.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
Since some will be for it and some will be against it in both places, can one site host 2 threads, with one for just the locals with no intruders, and another that’s the common thread for those who want to mingle? If the SBN system can handle two threads going like that at the same time on the same blog, it would solve all the problems. The people who want to mingle can go ahead, and the people who don’t want to participate in that would have their own thread with just their own people. Then the comment counts would be easier to control, as well.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 1, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
"They didn’t win, so they didn’t care."
I’ve stayed with the Blackhawks my whole life (trust me, a long time) but I won’t blame fans for not supporting the teams through those years. Due to ownership and management, the team was pathetic. A lot of “true” hockey fans started going to Chicago Wolves games. It was a lot cheaper and more competitive than anything the Hawks had going.
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
This is a typical comment made by a frustrated fan of a team on the verge of losing the stanley cup finals. Go to the vancouveur blog or the sharks blog, you will find plenty of other frustrated losers saying the same thing. Its a pathetic way of venting about your sucky ass team.
No reason to try to fight someone else’s venting with calling us losers and our team “sucky ass”. Reason works better. You have a good point. Make it without putting other people or their team down and then we can take it seriously.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
by doubleh on Jun 1, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very well said.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
How would you know?
You just joined here recently just like every other hockey site in the past week or so.
Let me guess, your name is Chad and you live in Lincoln Park / Wicker Park or Lakeview? How’s Trixie?
Weak
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You’ve made 18 comments here, the first of which was a little over three weeks ago. Don’t heckle the visitors, Frankie from Manayunk.
by Snevik on Jun 1, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually it is not. And I despise the Cubs and anybody who lives in Lincoln Park. Its just pathetic to hear other team fans try to claim that because the city is supporting their hockey team more during a finals run that somehow we are inferior and dont care. Ive been reading and hearing it for the last month. Funny thing is, it only comes from those whose teams are losing to the hawks and cant criticize the team itself. I was at the game last night and the biggest douche fans had flyers jerseys on. Since we are talking about fans, when you go to an away game, try not to embarass your whole city. Your traveling fans are by far the biggest douches I have ever seen.
We criticize our team plenty around here. And every teams’ fanbase has fans that embarass the rest of their fanbase. There’s nothing we can do about that—if we had that sort of control, we’d all live in a better world.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I lived in Chicago
from 1999-2004. Nobody and I mean NOBODY cared about the Blackhawks. I worked with a couple of die-hard Blackhawk fans who had season tickets then and still do. No problem with them. They were the only 2 people who I could talk hockey with. They stuck with the Hawks. Most people did not and I think its a BS excuse that fans didn’t go to the games or follow the games because of old man Wirtz.
I know about what Wirtz did. But there has been bad ownership in Philadelphia. But people still showed up to games here. That didn’t happen with the Blackhawks.
I think
if you write this out just one more time it might help; I’m still not seeing your argument.
www.mjt.org
I need 5 more times. I just love people who can qualify their relationship with their teams.
Puh-lease- Let’s try just rooting for your team and loving your team and be happy when they play well and frustrated when they don’t and not care so much about who wasn’t a fan last year or who will be a fan next year if they suck…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
I think what he is saying is to have a real fan smash you and the team you support than fine but some stupid shit who doesn’t now a offsides or remember the 2 line pass rule. I live in tampa and Ha dozens of dumb shit thry to say our fans suck are team sucks but never watched a baseball game till the Rays went to the ALCS. I hate douche fans who only support the team that is winning in their city cause they think it is cool. I lived in Illinois in the late 90’s and never meet anyone who was a Hawks fan.
I wasn't even a year old but I stayed up to be outside the Vet with my Dad and Mom when the Phillies won the World Series 1980.
by Christopher A on Jun 1, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude!
C’mon
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Well if i read one more “I lived in Chicago for 3 years and no one was a hawks fan….” enough is enough.
ugh
this one was uncalled for. i’m annoyed at the bandwagon comments as much as you are, but this shit sure as hell doesn’t help.
I’d just as soon we all drop this topic, for not other reason than it’s getting old and boring, and there are much better hockey-things to talk about.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
fresh take on an old subject?
Anyone who followed hockey in the 80s and early 90s knows that the Stadium was an amazing place to watch a game and that the Chicago fans were devoted and understood hockey.
So even though it’s fun to toss out the “your rink was empty five years ago pussy” just to raise the blood pressure I think what it really says is that the Hawks fans are one of the few passionate fan bases to overcome their spectator sports addiction and force the owners to treat them with respect and improve the product (or, in this case, die).
Everyone knows how hard it is to break the fan habit. That’s why this is different from the usual bandwagon narrative.
by flyersfaninchicago on Jun 1, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting point
i think we erred in letting that ass die of natural causes…what’s the point of having a mob if they can’t contribute positively to the city every now and then?
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, that is my Flyers response to my own argument
If you were real fans you would have iced him.
by flyersfaninchicago on Jun 1, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
He was cheap and corrupt, in a city where that’s true of almost everyone in power. I get the frustration. But it’s not like was an altogether terrible human being (see the millions donated to charities in the area). How about we let the sleeping dog lie with “We booed his memorial,” and stay away from the “Someone should have smothered him in his sleep” territory?
shoot, forgot to turn my sarcasm meter off when i left SCH
/click
fixed. sorry for the misunderstanding, but that’s exactly what i meant when i said before that i usually tone it down when i go off-site.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
It's good to know
that in the 4-5 years you languished in Chicago, you were lucky enough to become an expert on Blackhawks Hockey, history and fanbase. Bravo.
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
What fanbase was there
until 3 years ago? Where did they all go? To the Wolves games?
Pointless to argue
You obviously know better than I. I’ll just roll back up in my Lincoln Park Townhouse with the BMW in the garage and fix myself a spritzer.
Love,
Chad
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of them did go to Wolves games
The Wolves were averaging 8-9000 during some of this time. As I stated above, the Wolves games were cheaper and they were more competitive in their league.
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
Had better talent on the ice half the time, too,
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe more than half
plus Wirtz forced Pat Foley out and he ended up announcing Wolves’ games.
Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'Sir' without adding, 'You're making a scene."
Believe it or not, we have criticized some of our fans on here before.
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/5/5/1459903/third-period-thread-this-is-needed#36849881
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
So why am I a Cubs fan?
They didn’t win, so they didn’t care.
I know they have a long History of, well not winning, but am true blue loyal to them? But I left the “Dollar Bill” when they were still making the playoffs. I know I am not the only one who has followed the Cubs for as long as I can remember 1981-1982, but, but stopped with the Hawks. If it was only about winning, why am I a Cubs fan?
Perhaps it is more than winning that matters?
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
I don’t remember seeing it suggested after game 1…
Perhaps we should change the site tagline back?
well if games 1 and 2 are any indication (and I know there is a lot of people defending the goalie’s) we are still searching…haha.
Vokoun in net, Carter gone, still looks a lot better than what we have going on now…
//HO starting the Mariod, I told you so…
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I love how the goalie gets the blame for a 2 – 1 loss. If we need Leighton to pitch a shutout to win we are in trouble.
goalie doesn’t get the blame…he’s just not getting credit for keeping us in the game.
Yes, you can argue that he had no chance on the goal and/or that he was screened, but he was down way to early, but then again, he’s Micheal Leighton, not Marty Brodeur, so I guess you live with that.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
This down too early thing is getting kind of humorous. Watch most any goalie play. If they lose sight they go down in the butterfly and make their upper body as big as possible. If you want to say he should not of lost sight of that puck and should have been able to track it better that appropriate. Or even, he should have been able to tell where the shot was going from where the puck was on Eager’s blade. But he did the right thing after losing sight of the puck, go down, and cover as much net as possible, while keeping your upper body as big as possible.
To say he was down to early as being the mistake he made, to me, is incorrect. Losing sight of the puck on a fairly routine play is much more of the mistake.
No problem, I’m happy to have support ;)….
Especially with Leighton and the butterfly. Compared to Boucher, in most in game scenarios, Leighton seems to stay upright longer and be a little more patient to go down in the butterfly (especially when holding the post). That to me was an upside of having Leighton step in for Boucher, was that he stayed up a little longer (not saying he is better, just making an observation).
I agree on Boucher going to the butterfly earlier – look at the Kopecky goal in Game 1. Boucher commits and can’t recover with his stick quick enough to stop the shot. Methinks if he was 100% healthy he could’ve shifted his leg pad to get a better angle on that shot.
possibly, but wasn’t that Boucher in net in Phoenix when Ovechkin was on his back and scored on almost exactly the same angle? Methinks it’s not the first goal that Boucher has given up like this.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Boucher can be overly aggressive with his butterfly and over commit when he has no reason to be that aggresive. That’s something you take I guess, you appreciate his confidence, but it sucks when he gets burned doing it, and when he does get burned, it’s very noticeable. He doesn’t have the best lateral movement to begin with, but I’m sure the knees aren’t helping right now.
which is why Boucher is a backup, making less than $1MM a year. Sure he has the potential to get hot for some short spurts, but in the end, he is what he is. The same can be said about Leighton.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah I agree. I’m just more so getting in to the philosophy of goaltending here. I guess my main point was, it’s not like Leighton’s big problem is going down early, nor was that his big error on the play you mentioned.
Sure it be great to have a stud goalie, but regardless of who he is, if he loses sight there, chances are he is going down like Leighton did, and depending when he picks up the puck, he may or may not have been able to stop that shot. Now you would hope a stud goalie could track the puck a bit better on a 1 v 1, but if he can’t, it’s probably the same result.
You can pay a goalie whatever you want it doesn’t matter. Nabokov and his 6 million looked like shit against Chicago. Fluery and his 5 million looked awful against the Habs. Broduer and his 6 million didn’t look to hot against us. And how many goals did the Flyers shoot over the unbeatable Halak’s shoulder because he was going down. It happens not matter how good a goalie is playing a great shot can always beat him especially if he doesn’t see it.
Stop arguing play with salary Leighton gave up 2 goals against a team that averages over 3 per game. You have to score to win.
He is a butterfly goalie if you can’t see you go down and hope it hits you. Take away the low parts of the net and with you size only a really good shot is going to get past you. Any butterfly goalie would have gotten beaten on that play. I will give credit to Eager for to the good shot and not blame Leighton.
that’s fine, I thought he was down to early, but whatever. Once again, he’s Micheal Leighton, making $300K a year. If he’s making 3MM or 5MM, i’m much more critical, but he is what he is. The Flyers have done an amazing job even making the final, so if they actually win the SC with Boosh/ML in net, it will be a feat of amazing proportions.
If they lose, I’m not going to get too upset about it. They should have lost 2 rounds ago and there is a fair contingent of people who think the Flyers shouldn’t even be in the playoffs.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Hard to bash a guy who carried you this far especially after a 2-1 loss. Niemi was better and he goes down earlier too. The Flyers didn’t hit the corners they hit the glass too many times instead.
I think the problem wasn’t so much the goal itself but the timing of it…it was a back breaking goal. 28 seconds after a goal that snaps a 0-0 tie, to give up another that fast is just brutal.
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well, that was also kind of my point. It’s been a long time in Philly since we had a goalie that made some game changing saves that meant more than making the save, but actually changed the momentum of the game with the save. At least a goalie that did it consistently….
imagine if the guy in net had saved Brouwer point blank in game one and then made the relatively easy save on Bolland coming in SH. Imagine if Philly would have been up 3-0 in game 1 after the first. Really, it’s not that big a stretch to argue that the possibility of that was real.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
well, that was also kind of my point. It’s been a long time in Philly since we had a goalie that made some game changing saves that meant more than making the save, but actually changed the momentum of the game with the save. At least a goalie that did it consistently….
And what the hell did Leighton do in the other games he played.
It’s hysterical you named Brodeur because I linked to a Briere slapper that went top shelf on Brodeur in the first round. Nobody then said how weak that goal was, and the best response to it in the game thread was “How fast does an average slap shot travel?” So… that extra 20 miles an hour from 30 feet (which translates to what, 0.00002 seconds) is why Briere is awesome and Leighton sucks.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
you missed my point though. Brodeur is a big time goalie, we can all agree to that. He makes $5MM a year or whatever, you tend to expect a guy like that to make every save, even the ones that are “unstoppable”. I’m simply pointing out that it’s Micheal Leighton, one needs to temper their expectations. So far in games 1 and 2, our goalies haven’t made the “big time” saves. Yes, Leighton made some really good ones last night, but I hope this series highlights the fact that we still need a goaltender.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I see your point and still disagree. Look at all the stories showing how there are so few goalies worth their cap hit. Having a guy in the $1-2.5 mill range is a much more efficient allocation of cap dollars. I’m a convert into the keep Carter, stay away from Vokoun camp.
As you know, I was a huge Vokoun fan. Now, there are only 2 or 3 goalies worth $6 mil a year, and even the ones that are worth it aren’t guaranteed to reach that value throughout the length of their contract.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I am well aware of the numerous stories on this subject and the conclusion that I’ve drawn is that it’s a fine line between getting a goalie that is consistent and can occassionally make the big save to keep his team in the game and overpaying for this guy.
That said, I still maintain that this series highlights that we still didn’t quite get the mix right.
If we lose this series, right or wrong, in my mind, we didn’t get the goaltending we needed.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I agree entirely. And while the Flyers got lucky with Leighton, I don’t think he’s anything more than a 1-B. And with Boucher as a clear cut 2, that’s not enough.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
and we also got lucky with the eastern conference draw. Yes, we played very good hockey, but NJ, Boston and Montreal isn’t exactly the murder’s row of offensive juggernauts.
In a vacuum, my point is that would you trade Carter for a Stanley Cup championship? Because after seeing the first two games, I maintain that Vokoun would have made more of a difference to this team than Carter has…Yes, it’s pure speculation, but it’s what I do…
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
We certainly did get lucky with the Eastern Conference Draw, there’s no disputing that. But the Flyers still had to play some pretty damn good hockey to get there.
As far as Vokoun = Stanley Cup Championship, maybe this year he would have, using hindsight. But next year can’t be guaranteed. Plus, nobody can prove Vokoun would have even been 50% likely to stop the Eager goal, and with how poorly the team played in Game 1, it’d would be pure speculation.
Although I will say these playoffs have opened me up to the idea of trading Carter a little more if only because Richards – Briere – Giroux – Betts down the middle is pretty solid.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
yup, definitely agree with you. There are at least 5 options I’d explore this offseason prior to trading Carter and Briere would be the first on my list. I just think Carter is the guy who is fetching the most return and it’s obvious that this team can play without him in the lineup.
I just wish he would turn it on and make a difference, like coming up with a huge goal somewhere soon. It would make it a lot easier to justify NOT trading him.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely, Carter isn’t my first choice, he just seems like the most likely.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Between the trade value and the NMCs interspersed throughout your roster Carter has to be the most likely candidate. That said, I don’t think Carter for Vokoun (or another high priced goalie) is a great move. If you move Carter it should be to open some cap space and sign a cheaper veteran goalie (eg. Roloson, yes I know he’s not UFA, just an example) and add another skater.
I waited all year for this?
If the Flyers do choose to trade Carter I would hope that it would be for a young goalie rather than an old one
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Exactly. That would open cap space as well. And since you wouldn’t want to trade Carter in the conference, let alone division, who fits that description… Los Angeles anyone?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
And that’s fine. But the Flyers have a logjam at Center and a dearth of right wings. Carter isn’t exactly playing well on the wing and the team has anywhere from 3 to 4 Top-6 centers.
After next year, Carter and Gagne’s contracts expire, so do you sign them both and hope they combine for around the $10 mil they cost now, or can you only keep one? If you can only keep one, who do you keep? If you keep Gagne, you can get draft picks in return for Carter or you can trade him now.
Either way, it’s a problem that needs a solution. Maybe it’s a simple one, maybe it’s a hard one, maybe it will work itself out. But the Flyers aren’t a better team with four top-6 centers.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem I see is that the center’s aren’t exactly huge; Richards, Giroux, Briere are all well under 6ft. At least with Carter you have some size down the middle. I’d rather see one of Hartnell/Briere traded but again the NMC will more than likely halt that.
As far as Gagne goes, I’d be quite annoyed if he left, but if he doesn’t take some kind of discount I’m not sure that there is an option.
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There are certainly alternatives, and size is a good reason to look for one. As is his plus-defense, good faceoff skills, and goal-scoring.
But Hartnell won’t bring back nearly as much and Briere will be difficult to move, unless it’s for another very similar player and cap hit.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think Carts is too much to give up for a probable but not certain up and coming goalie
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Which is going to be a problem with any young goalie. How many young goalies are truly “proven.” At what age is it safe to consider a goalie proven?
I waited all year for this?
When he’s in HOF?
To me, Carter is too much. He’s a pure goal scorer, big body, PK etc etc. This Flyers team might not need him as much as they need a goalie, but I’d want to see another legit player coming back as well as a goalie
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Agreed. Carter for a goalie is going to be too steep in almost all cases. Even Vokoun is a tough sell right now. But Carter for Harding (or another goalie) + a decent pick/prospect might be a better situation for PHI.
I waited all year for this?
Ok, I thought it was probably the case but wasn’t sure what your angle was exactly.
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Carter can move to wing he played two games there so far give him a full camp and season to make the move. Gagne did it no reason why Carter can’t his shot is to good to give up and trading Danny after the playoffs is a bad move. He is too good when it really matters.
As I said, Roloson was just an example. There are plenty of younger Rolson-type goalies around. You can find a guy that is adequate without spending 5 million. I’m not sure LAK is looking to move a goalie. I’d bet they want another year to look at Quick and Bernier before making a decision.
I waited all year for this?
That may be true, and they can certainly afford to keep both for next year.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
And I’m not sure either guy is even closer proper value for Carter. In fact, I’d say LAK would definitely have to throw in more to get Carter. Maybe throw in Teubert or another defensive prospect and it evens out. Better yet… Quick and RANDY JONES for Carter. Done.
I waited all year for this?
Oh, certainly it’s not fair straight up. But Jones too?!?! Where do I buy a stripper for the party?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
But in all honesty, if I was PHI I might be looking at Josh Harding or Corey Schneider. Those guys clearly don’t have much of a future where they are but have a lot of promise.
I waited all year for this?
Schneider has been hyped for so long, I’m beginning to sour on him. Harding, however, is a guy I’ve liked but been less than impressed with.
And they’re worth even less than Bernier.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernier isn’t that much different from Schneider, IMO. Both have had hype forever, both have had one very good AHL year. Both have lost to Michal Neuvirth in 6.
I waited all year for this?
haha, Neuvirth is another guy I like. We had this discussion before, no? Varly, Neuvy, and Holtby are all a year or two away. Can’t have all 3, and most likely not 2.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah we’ve talked a little before. I don’t think it’s gone far because we both realize it’s not happening. We aren’t bailing you out of your lack of goalie depth and you aren’t giving us a stud 2C.
Varly/Neuvy will probably be our goaltending tandem next year. Varly should be ready, but he needs to stay healthy. Neuvy looked real good when he got NHL practice time so I’m cautiously optimistic. It helps a lot that Neuvy has some early signs of being a “big game goalie.” Honestly, my money is on Neuvy being better than Varly long term. Holtby is the X factor, he combines elements of both guys and if he develops well could end up being the best of the 3, but has a ways to go. Luckily he’ll get plenty of time in Hershey while GMGM tries to figure out what to do with the older 2.
I waited all year for this?
Yeah, but I would be worried with Varly/Neuvy next year. I think that allows for Washington to spend money on desperately needed defense (not necessarily D-men), but if there isn’t enough money there, I’m not sure that’s the best goalie depth to have.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
This coming from the guy that has had a front row seat to watch Leighton and Boucher go to the Cup finals. Is Varly/Neuvy the best tandem in the league? No. But I do think they can both give solid NHL netminding, and at least Varly is capable of getting hot and providing stellar NHL netminding. With the team in front of them that should be good enough… at least until the trade deadline. Neuvy obviously hasn’t seen any NHL playoff action yet, but in his career he’s been a stud in the playoffs (OHL and AHL). All we need is for one of those guys to be on their game for the playoffs and the rest is up to the skaters. That’s probably the number one lesson from these playoffs.
I waited all year for this?
I know a lot gets said about the Caps D, so I won’t bang on about it, but there is a huge difference between the Caps D and the Hawks and Flyers. The Hawks and Flyers allow for a mediocre goalie to be successful by having stellar defense (although that doesn’t explain why Huet was mostly terrible this year).
Of course, everybody knows this
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Yeah, I’m not exactly sure where I said the Caps D was stellar. If anything, the implicit secondary argument was that the Caps should use that money to make their skating corps (most specifically D and C) stronger instead of overpaying for a FA goalie. To make it explicit, I think the Caps should focus on getting a solid, if not spectacular, 2C and upgrading their top 4 D in the off-season. Carlson and Alzner will be on the Caps from opening night and that’s already a big upgrade, one more top-4 guy with some experience would be the cherry on top.
I waited all year for this?
Oh you didn’t, but it definitely needs an upgrade to allow an average goalie to keep the team in the game.
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Haha. This is exactly the kind of ridiculous overreaction that gets Caps fans spun up.
it definitely needs an upgrade to allow an average goalie to keep the team in the game.
Really? The team that outscored everyone by miles and won the Presidents’ Trophy needs an upgrade on D just to be in the game? I haven’t counted, but how many games this year do you think the Caps “weren’t in the game.” Even during the embarrassing playoff flame out, they were literally in every game (all 1 goal losses if you ignore ENGs). Their D let in 3, 2, 2, 2 goals in the 4 losses (excluding ENGs). Granted, the Habs aren’t exactly a potent offense, but I don’t think there’s any evidence that the Caps’ D isn’t good enough to “keep them in the game.” Is it a Cup-worthy D Corps? No, and I said so at the beginning of the season; but it was still good enough two win the Presidents’ Trophy with Jose Theodore getting the majority of the starts.
I waited all year for this?
Haha ok thats fair, it was a brief thought that I didn’t think through.
~to win the tight games? Would that be more suitable.
I know the Caps can score all the goals in the world, but can the D and goalie keep them out when it gets tight?
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I guess that’s the big question. Until they prove it in the playoffs, it doesn’t really matter. And we don’t know what the roster looks like for next year yet, so I have no clue.
I waited all year for this?
I’m even less informed than you. My Caps fan friend explained the series loss was basically a cluster-$#%^, and I just assumed that it was more on the goalie and D because I didn’t watch the games and only followed the recaps
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It was most definitely on the goalie… but not the Caps’ goalie. Halak stole that series, bottom line. The Caps could have done a couple things better for sure. There were a few passengers, specifically the second line. There was some lax defensive play, and MON made them pay for it every time. And there were 2 stars that decided they didn’t need to show up. But at the end of 7 games the Caps dominated the puck, doubled MON in shots, had tons of quality scoring chances, and somehow lost 4 games. They let in 2 regulation goals in each of their 4 losses (and one OT goal). I bet if you were told the Caps would let up 2 goals a game to MON you’d say the Caps won easily. Halak just shut down the Caps offense and there wasn’t really anything anyone could do about it.
I waited all year for this?
I just think its bizarre that the team and system that locked out the Caps and Pens was picked apart by the Flyers.
I know a lot can be said about luck and chance etc but over 7 games you would expect those variables to have less influence and true skill take over.
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I hate to be a dick about it, because you guys won and earned it, but Halak wasn’t the same goalie against PHI that he was against PIT and WAS. It sucks, because why ruin what could have been a great playoff bracket with 2 hot rounds, but what can you do?
I waited all year for this?
I hate to be a dick too, but I don’t really buy that. Halak’s magic wears off after 14 games? Different teams, different systems, different success.
Look at the Devils-Pens-Flyers triangle.
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Well match ups are definitely important, but that’s a separate issue. If you don’t think Halak’s magic just wore off then you weren’t watching. I don’t know how many of those games you watched, or how long you’ve been watching hockey, but sometimes that stuff just happens. Qualitatively Halak was just not the same goalie against PHI as he was in the first 2 rounds. You guys dominated their skaters for sure, but that wasn’t anything new; PIT and WAS both dominated MON outside the blue paint.
I waited all year for this?
I saw 1 game from the Caps series and parts of 2 from the Pens. I know goalies can go on hot streaks but for it to end right when Game 1 of the ECF starts is pretty tough to believe. He was still pretty good a lot of that series Halak wasn’t the only reason the Caps and Pens lost those rounds, and he wasn’t the reason the Habs lost against the Flyers
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He definitely wasn’t the reason MON lost to PHI. But he wasn’t the same goalie either. You can say he wasn’t the reason PIT or WAS lost, but it’s not really true. Both teams could have done something better; but both teams did plenty enough to win under any normal circumstance. It was a ridiculous performance that I haven’t seen since Giguere got hot in 2003. It was odd that it ended like it did, but he saved like 140 of 143 shots over games 5-7 against the Caps. That’s not all pot shots from the outside either. We dominated and he stole all three of those games.
I waited all year for this?
14 games over two weeks in hyperaroused state playing a technical/speed position puts serious strain on the adrendal system and eventually you reach a tipping point where production of epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinehrine can’t match the demand.This results in adrenal fatigue and this means a reduced reaction and perception speeds, poor concentration, listilessness, worse coordination and less agility, bad decision making to name a few. Plus the body also has to repair any damaged tissue from contact or just the normal repair of any mircotearing of muscle can result from some types of athletic activity or training (strength training causes mircotearing of muscle bellies, it’s normal ) Plus rebuilding glycogen stores which muscles need to work in anaerobic (no oxygen) environement – more cruical to the skaters but necessarily for goalies -those pads look like they are heavy and probably keep getting more so as the game progresses.
Oh, I agree entirely. And I wasn’t comfortable with the Flyers goalie situation – I hate Leighton. If it was Emery/Boucher like it was planned, I would have been a lot more comfortable, but the point is that the Flyers got lucky. I’ll happily admit that.
But that’s why I said the money needs to be spent on D – the Flyers were able to overcome their goaltending by relying heavily on Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, Carle, Betts, Laperriere, Gagne, Richards, etc. The Caps need better team defense in order to use the formula the Flyers used, or better yet, the Blackhawks used.
Because that’s honestly a better model for the Caps: Chicago. And they have Keith, Seabrook, Sopel, Campbell, and Bolland. The Caps need a lot more to follow that model.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re preaching to the choir. I’ve been saying we need to be more like CHI/SJS/DET all year. Be a puck possession team and Tenacious [on] D as well as on O. It would also help if some of our skilled guys would commit to cycling more instead of trying to score off the rush so frequently, but that’s coaching. As I said above, the Caps need to improve their 2C and top 4 D in order to get to that CHI model. In 2-3 years if they can keep Green/Schultz/Carlson/Alzner together, the D will be beastly. But I don’t really want to wait that long and I’m not fully confident they can keep those 4 together.
I waited all year for this?
I sure would like to have Carlson and Alzner instead of Bartulis and Krajicek…
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I sure as hell hope not. We don’t need to commit that much money to a guy right now; we’ve got our own guys we need to worry about keeping around. He’s also not the most durable guy, plays a very rugged game, and already has a lot of miles. I’ll pass on Volchenkov.
I waited all year for this?
Also team philosophy not just the blueline but the forwards as well Caps thought they could just out score everyone and would just rush rush rush. Buffalo was like that when they won the President’s trophy with Danny and Chris Drury but they had Miller and Hasek to bail them out when the rush when the other way.
It’s a team sport… just saying
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
Say what you will about either player, I think there’s a really valid argument that for 2010—for 2010—Leighton has to be considered a better goalie than Brodeur.
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haha, I can see the argument (I don’t think I agree with it), but when I tried to lay out the argument for Leighton being team MVP (which I didn’t even agree with), people got really angry.
It’s all about seeing the other side.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
and I am in the camp that Leighton is simply a product of a good system being put in place by a good coach who saw what he had to work with and executed his plan.
I don’t know, I never really expected to win this series, so maybe I’m more objective than most. Hell, I’m still hoping they pull off a miracle…
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
On the flip side, I would argue that most great goalies are the product of a system. Hell, we blast the Devils for their “boring trap system” that focuses on defense, then we say Brodeur’s a great goalie. I’m not saying he’s bad, but I think his reputation got a boost from the system.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I’m in that camp as well.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I would argue that the people who made the “What if Brodeur could stop a beach ball video” Were suggesting that Briere’s shot was less than stellar and that Marty should have made that save.
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I’d argue that Brodeur is definitely not the same goalie of 3 or 4 seasons ago for sure.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Since 2003 he hasn’t been the guy who could carry a team anymore. Coincidentally, the Scotts both left soon after.
I waited all year for this?
absolutely. but he also proved that he is still capable of keeping his team in the game (evidenced by game 3)
it’s an interesting concept and one that has been discussed everywhere…where is the balance between solid goalie who has the ability to keep his team in the game/steal a game vs. salary
This flyers team is evidence that you can get by with a mediocre goalie for spurts, but in the end, you need a guy that can come up with a big save or two. (Niemmi’s save on Richards on the breakaway or his toe save on the Timo shot….)
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Love your reasoning, but not if it means that Niemi is better than a “mediocre goalie”.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Like it or not, he’s made key saves at the right times. We haven’t gotten that out of our guys, unfortunately.
Here’s hoping the tide turns in Philly.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, certainly. I’m just saying both are “mediocre goalies”, except one has come up bigger than the other in this series. That doesn’t change the fact that they’re skill level isn’t too far apart.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Don’t understand why the national media is jumping all over the Flyers nuts and running this goaltender controversy into the ground yet again, when Chicago’s GT hasn’t been any great shakes himself. They are getting the lucky bounces and capitalizing on mistakes, finding ways to win even when they are outplayed. It takes those to win a Stanley Cup.
Wish there weren’t so many stupid people out there who have anecdotize (is that a word) everything in life.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
haha, like I said last night, Philadelphians love creating goalie controversies. If it isn’t the fans, it’s the local media. If it isn’t the local media, it’s the national media. No matter who pitches in to the topic, the fans are either eating it up or cooking it up.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i think they're only doing it
because Chicago’s goalie controversy got boring ages ago, like back in March. This one just seems “fresher”. who knows. I personally think ML’s done an alright job, especially last night (and not just b/c I’m a Hawks fan). Maybe he didn’t win you the game, but I don’t think he lost it for you either.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
ML kept them in the game
He made a few really good stops that could have made it an ugly game. Niemi the same. Niemi won it last night, Leighton did not lose it.
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by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The issue is
This is the same dead horse the MSM beats every single year regarding the Flyers. Biron wasn’t the reason the Flyers couldn’t beat the Pens in 2008. ML won’t be the reason that the Flyers can’t beat the Hawks, either, should that horrible disaster come to be.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Game 1 was who can capitialize most
Game 2 was whose Goalie was better standing on their head.
The Flyers Offense had Chances, and ML stole Hawks chances, Niemi just made one save more, and that is what won it. It was not because ML was crap, he played very well, just flat out got outplayed in net.
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I thing Crosby Malkin and Fluery had more to do with the Flyers not getting past the Pens then Biron did.
But both of them are in the SCF. I think all you need is a mediocre goalie that is on his game. You don’t need 1995 Brodeur (though it obviously helps), you just need a goalie that isn’t going to kill you with weak goals.
I waited all year for this?
I would add to that and is in the right system. Case and point, this Flyers team. The only real game where I can recall a Flyers goalie completely standing on his head this post-season was Boucher during the 1st part of overtime in Game 1 of the Boston series. And as we all know, the Flyers ended up losing that game.
Boucher in the Devils series, Boucher and Leighton in the Boston series, and Leighton in the Montreal series were never stand-on-your-head-OMG-Roy-spectacular, but were solid enough and did not let in soft goals or make mistakes that killed the team.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
Allow me to explain:
Niemi had a 0.912 save percentage during the regular season, including a 0.914 even-strength save percentage. Compare to:
Chris Mason: 0.913 (0.917)
Price: 0.912 (0.921)
Theodore: 0.911 (0.924)
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
and you are correct. Which is why, I wish he had something more than that “mediocre” goalie right now.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
And then we get into taking money away from one area and putting it in the other. Maybe Vokoun would have won Game 1 (Carter didn’t do much), but what if Leighton only gives up one goal in Game 3 and the Flyers lose? Carter would be more valuable in that game…
It’s all fun speculation, but $5 million is a lot of money to take away from one area and bank in another.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
oh absolutely, but it’s a lot better than talking about losing another game we could have won.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 1, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Niemi was a huge beneficiary of our system
His spectacular GAA was largely because of the strong play by the D in front of him. He wasn’t tested this much until the playoffs.
yeah, that’s why I don’t use GAA.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
you can’t use SV PCT either there is no way to judge goaltending other than watching the guy play. Against MTL the defense kept everything to the outside and MTL didn’t get any really good chances all easy making saves with nobody in front. Same thing Stevens and The Devils Trap did for Brodeur.
huh? I don’t even want to get into how bad idea it is to summarily dismiss all the goaltender stat categories in order to justify an unobjective viewpoint of a perticular goaltender or goaltending in general.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
Defensive > Goaltending
If goalie stats matter why were we able to draft Nic Riopel in the 5th round 142nd overall. He finished that season with the all time QJMHL record for single season GAA 2.01 and a 0.930 SV PCT and won the MVP of that league.
Stop arguing in absolutes, it gets you no where. Stats matter when you can’t watch every game, and you haven’t grown up playing/watching/surrounded by the game. I’m willing to bet that you don’t get paid to scout, so what makes your eyes better than stats? You are entitled to opinion, and can question the validity of certain stats, but stats are necessary to bridge the gap. We can’t analyze every single stop of every single game over the course of a year. What we can do is consider what we saw in combination with stats and form an opinion.
umh… yes we can. you learn a players style and what consistencies you see on the ice… i must have watched 285 Flyers games in the last 3 years and maybe clicked on a weblink stat 10 or 15 different occasions during that time… no one paid me either
Sweet, so you have that nice log of notes you can share with me for every Flyers. And you can also give me scouting reports on other players from other. Heck I’ll just ask for the other teams top lines.
I’m not saying not to use observation, I’m saying when you need to compare players, or analyze players, your 285 games of just Flyers watching is not enough. Say I asked you to give me a good analysis on Bolland before the series, and maybe who he compares to most on the Flyers. You wouldn’t have much observation to pull from, but you would have a couple things here and there, and then what you could also do is ask other people what they see in the guy, and then to tighten your analysis, you could add in some STATS
I’m not saying you can’t observe things from watching players, and come to some decent conclusions, but what I am saying is, you haven’t watched enough of every player on every team to make observation enough, sometimes you need some decent stats to bridge the gaps.
No offense, but I wouldn’t trust your 285 games of observational experience to tell me if you think Greiss can compete for the #1 in SJ next year, or if at what $’s and length of contract would be appropriate to keep Coburn around. I would want you to give me some comparable statistics along with your observations.
if you want a scouting report, stand in line… bolland, great two way player – will be used to shut down richie… No way Greiss beats out Naby but he will step in when Naby is traded… im only one guy and can’t stay awake for the west coast games. and some teams bore the heck out of me… Flyers just do it for me… coburn will probably be gone. i dont know
Thank you for continuing to miss the point…if you never want to look at stats that’s fine, you’ll never get the complete picture.
With all the stats pilled against them how did MTL beat WSH or PITTSBURGH for that matter. How did we come back 0-3 who did Micheal Leighton of all people lead the postseason in every statistical category and still give up 6 goals game 1. How did the road team win every game 7 in this years playoffs. And on and on and on we go.
Talbot’s 2 goals in the SCF’09 – Ben Eager’s GWG last night… Cam Ward’s cup run… and how about the NFL, Santonio Holmes was a bum before he got the SB mvp. Trent Dilfer… yada yada… all improbable in the eyes of a statistician… i think your point maybe more valid in the MLB… but in the long run, it’s just a game played by people
OMG it’s like banging my head against a wall. Why do you continually try to change what I am saying. What I am saying is if you want to analyze a player, you can’t solely rely on observation b/c what is out there to observe in this sport is beyond our capability to witness. I’m NOT saying stats make a player good or bad or should be how they are judged solely. I am completely against judging players solely on stats, I’ve played the game since I was 5, I know better. But what I am saying is we can’t observe every player, so stats provide a decent base and help round out a story on a player beyond the opinions of our own observations. None of what I have said has had anything to do with the Flyers being in the Cup Finals, or why Montreal knocked out the Caps and Pens. What I have said simply is, neither observations alone (b/c at the end of the day, they are still personal opinions), nor stats alone are enough to give the whole story, you need both, and no one should dismiss stats or observations as meaningless (like Chris did with goalie stats above, which is why I replied in the first place).
Let me know if you two have followed finally, or if you still want to change the subject to teams doing well in the playoffs.
i think you were the one that said i was dismissing STATS (correct?)… and you told chris no one can analysis every single game and player without some stats to fall back on. and i said well ive seen a bunch of games and pretty much know what the Flyers have without grabbing a stat sheet and i have learn more about a player by watchin and not reading the numbers and you said that’s not possible. i don’t know, sounds like you have an opinion on the matter… and my last reply was mostly a reiteration of the last thing chris wrote… did i miss something?
Yeah you missed his Riopel argument and how if stats mattered he wouldn’t have been drafted in the 5th round, but instead earlier. And also when Chris said this
you can’t use SV PCT either there is no way to judge goaltending other than watching the guy playwhen Geoff used Save % to compare goalies. I thought he was being way to dismissive of stats b/c honestly we haven’t watched enough of the goalies to make a comparison just based on play, and what we have watched is our opinions, so the addition of stats to opinions helps round out the argument. Then you jumped in,a nd I continued on my thought process from my reply to Chris, and you two then went a whole other way with it. Chris isn’t necessarily wrong IN THEORY when he says that either, but unfortunately, our observations as fans are limited in the real world, and you can not dismiss stats as meaningless. I’m not trying to be rude, just trying to simply state that observation and statistics are not mutually exclusive. And I most certainly never said you can’t learn more about a player by watching him, I simply said you can’t possible give me all the info I need on all the players I want without some stats to help tie things together; it was an exaggeration to prove a point, not an insult on your ability to watch a game. But please recognize what you observe is still your opinion, right wrong or indifferent, so having stats to back up an opinion always helps.
Very well said. I’m a huge stats guy, but you can’t learn everything from them. But you need stats because, well, I’ll just put what Derek Zona said about Confirmation Bias:
Sometimes (even most times) these observations will be correct, but when a mistake is made, there is almost no way for an outside observer to effectively challenge what someone has seen with his own eyes, especially since, most times, he’s not open to having that opinion truly challenged. When worse comes to worse, the fall-back becomes an individual data-set that no one can challenge instead of the group data-set that helps members in the discussion to become – at least a little bit – more objective.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry to take up so much space on this relatively meaningless discussion here Geoff. I just got frustrated at first with the argument in absolutes, then got frustrated when my point was completely missed (which was mostly my fault I’m sure since I’m not the most eloquent person in the world).
No need to apologize.
Happens to me all the time
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s all good my friend, no problems. obviously Niemi has faced the almost same amount of shots in both games and the difference is as far as SV PCT numbers are completely different in both games… so therefore, SV PCT doesn’t matter here to this point, especially since the Flyers hit Niemi’s butterflown pads all last night and went high on him on Saturday with success…
Oh, that’s not what I was talking about as far as SV PCT…it was this post from Geoff
Niemi had a 0.912 save percentage during the regular season, including a 0.914 even-strength save percentage. Compare to:
Chris Mason: 0.913 (0.917)
Price: 0.912 (0.921)
Theodore: 0.911 (0.924)
Referring to Niemi as mediocre I believe. And that’s what Chris replied to, and then the Riopel thing just got me going. I have opinions based on observations of all these goalies, but don’t watch them enough to be an expert, so having these numbers side by side is a nice starting block for a comparison. Hope that explanis my tangent better Fitzy. Again, I’m a huge fan of observation, I was made to watch a lot of tape of myself growing up b/c of my tendency to get lost in coverage in the defensive zone.
Examples:
Riopel’s stats are a product of the system everyone in hockey apparently though so and threw the stats out the window so I am not alone here.
What I am saying is there is no way based on stats to determine whether Niemi, Nabokov or Vokuon would put up those same numbers under a different system. So why bother spending the big bucks on guys when nothing is certain. Vokuon might not like it when when the Flyers face up to try to block all those shots because if the shot gets through the goalie has a hard time seeing it. A more reactive goalie like Vokoun might do poorly where as a positioning goalie with a big slow body like Leighton who doesn’t move much does well. That is what I am saying.
Also if goalie #1 faces 10 shots ands give up 4 goals all on breakaways he has a 0.600 SV PCT. If goalie #2 I face 10 shots from the outside and give up 3 goals he has a 0.700 SV PCT who is the better goalie.
Also there is Kovalchuk. Adding someone with his stats mad the Devils fan super excited and pumped up, everyone was going nuts. But he doesn’t fit the system and hurt the Devils way more than he helped them in the end. If you watched him play and ignored that numbers who could have saw that coming.
Re Kovalchuk:
Stats could have predicted that extremely well. Complete season, how many goals against was Kovalchuk on the ice for? 52. Who had the second most goals against while on the ice? Jamie Langenbrunner with 42.
Zach Parise was the Devils best forward last year and he was on the ice for 70 NJ goals that year, just as many as Kovy. But he was on the ice for 14 goals fewer.
The Devils allowed the second fewest shots against per game in the NHL this year (27.0) and did that because only two forwards had more than that per 60 minutes of ice time. Ilkka Pikkarainen was one of them, and he only played 31 games. Want to guess who the other was?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Or you could just watch Kovy play and come to the same conclusion. Okay I do like some stats and I am not totally against them but Goalie stats in particular I am little hesitant. Goalies stats no matter which are derived from team play much more so that player stats. Minus the shootout save pct of course. I think we can agree to that.
We can agree to that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 2, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Re Riopel:
He was the 13th goalie selected in 2009. He’s 6’0" and 172 pounds. Only one goalie was taken smaller than him in the entire draft, and that’s Olivier Roy (6’0" 165 pounds, 9 picks before Riopel).
Maybe NHL GMs care more about size when drafting 18 and 19 year old goalies, but that doesn’t mean Riopel’s stats were “thrown out the window”. He’s one of only two goalies his size to get drafted that year, and I’m betting it had a lot to do with his stellar numbers.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey is there a saves per shots per scoring chances. I saw the piece over at the ed. oilers blog but didn’t quite understand how to read the scoring chances chart but understood what a scoring chance is.
I’m not familiar with one, no. The scoring chances they cite are calculated by people like you and me. The NHL doesn’t do it, so people are left on their own.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be a useful stat scoring chances is so useful. You can get out shot and even lose the attack time battle but still have controlled the game by picking you spots and getting more quality scoring chances. See the Flyers Devils series for example.
It was thinking out loud about how you could develop a stat or stats designed to quantify a goalies luck just like a pitcher. In baseball it’s Batted Balls in Play or BABIP. If a hard hit line drive goes right to a fielder that’s pitchers luck, a bloop single of the end of the bat is batter’s luck or pitcher’s bad luck. In hockey it’s alot more complex and may actually require more Bayesian Inference than frequentist analysis. But randomness is afoot infront of the goal mouth. Still I also believe in observation so long as it is systematic. It was interesting at Fangraphs an article was written to show how much sabermetrics and scouting actually yielded the similar results over a certain period of time.
I agree I think size is hugely important but I would call size a statistic. If Riopel is a reflex goalie that doesn’t translate well to NHL where the players are that much better. That is an intangible like speed and puck skill and vision. Something you learn from watching a guy not by reading his stat line. Just like you example of the CBJ guy Matt Carver or whatever he stats are so so but certainly looks like he brings a lot to the table.
I could see that argument, but I’d counter with the fact that Brodeur – beach ball was more of a response to the man and/or series as a whole and not singling out that one goal specifically.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
"How fast does an average slap shot travel?
Hey that was me. I don’t remember the context but I asked it in earnest not to be snarky. Actually I think Eager shot was one of those even David Eckstein or Juan Pierre rakes one occasionally. Freaky play.
haha, yeah, it was you. Sorry I took snark where none was. But it honestly was the best response to my claim.
I think the context was “going down too early”, but can’t be sure. And I do remember you saying something about Eckstein.
Didn’t mean to single you out, just that people need to stop saying it was a weak goal when it wasn’t.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it was one those throw it at the net and it could go in deals. I’ve seen pitchers make great pitches and batters take horrible swings but yet the conditions are just right and the ball soars out park from the least expected guy. This reminds me of the 2nd game of the WS where people were actually pissed at Pedro for the gem he pitched because we failed to make adjustments to Burnett (the one time we should have been more aggressive in the series) and could only put up one measly run. If you hold that line -up from hell to 3 runs, that’s excellent pitching or just very lucky pitching. Or a bit of both
Hmm
Y’all took this the wrong way. Let me clarify what I meant:
Geez, after game 1, we should’ve thought about changing the site tagline back — clearly we jinxed him. And now after a second loss, no matter what the reason for the loss, I’m starting to dislike the new tagline.
haha, I fogot that’s how the thread started…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
For the record, I brought it up early in the Game 1 recap thread, but nobody wanted to talk about it: http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/5/29/1493477/hawks-outlast-flyers-for-sloppy-6#38640624
But I’m with you, I don’t like it. I was scared we were going to jinx it when it was first changed.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 1, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want to know what was said that earned the misconducts, since the actions themselves seemed pretty harmless.
Watch it with the jinxing!
Time for some thrillin' heroics!
by shinkicker on Jun 1, 2010 12:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Its a non issue
If it was a Blackhawk player we wouldn’t even know about it because no writers would mention it.
Also see Pukie @ CBP
Santa Snow Throw @ Vet
blah blah blah
on to Game 3 and a victory for the Flyers
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
I don’t think it’s a bad thing. But a misconduct penalty is not a non-issue, and neither is Pronger playing mind games.
Called the whole story a non issue
Which I still stand behind.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
I’d say it’s a more relevant issue to this series than 75% of the Fly By (sorry, Geoff). It’s certainly worth discussing.
No offense taken, but it did get a hefty amount of links up top.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it matters more to the players than the fans, and I really linked to it because it was everywhere. It’s interesting and funny, but I’m not sure what there is to discuss. Does it throw Pronger off his game? No. Does it throw Eager off his? No. Does it make anybody better? No.
So I really don’t know what to say about it. Not sure about others though.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s no direct correlation between it and how people play, but it’s not incidental. Pronger doesn’t play in a vacuum, and neither does Eager, and any actions directed at the Blackhawks locker room (which this almost surely was) will have more impact on the series than, say, Richards’ attitude towards the media, or Carcillo hitting Carter.
Maybe you’re right that there’s not much to add to this story, I was interested that it wasn’t being discussed. It’s definitely an issue.
Oh, certainly. But then writers start off asking why he’s doing it (see CSN article here) ridiculously positing that Pronger is trying to take attention away from Leighton. Just makes me furious.
Whatever Pronger’s doing, it’s just to mess with someone. Will it work, who’s he targeting, why did he choose this, etc. are solid questions. Trying to tie it to some super-duper-Captain-act is just crazy. He’s being a dick, and it’s awesome.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My two cents is that Pronger is ultimately doing this to distract the media from the usual crap and from grilling his captain about potential goalie controversies, play, etc. If the media is asking him about stolen pucks and grilling Eager about what he yapped to Pronger, it’s too busy to focus on the actual game. Remember Rollins statement about Philly fans and subsequent fallout from that? I remember at the time the Phils weren’t playing so well.
I think it’s all calculated, and yes, it is awesome.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Oh, that’s a good point. I forgot the “distraction” is away from the media asking questions and not legitimate fan concerns. The story never should have been Leighton, but the media was likely going to ask about it anyway.
But yes, completely awesome.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Just so we’re clear, Chris Pronger is awesome. Let me write that down in my notebook
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
I’d also throw in that it doesn’t have to be for one reason. The real answer could be “all of the above.” Or “none of the above.” I suspect it’s some combination of all the answers. He’s good at finding any excuse to express his inner dickhead, and this is just another chance for him to do it.
I waited all year for this?
But that’s been the case with every awesome defenseman (or defenceman, if you prefer) to ever put on a sweater, no? Simulaneously pest, protector and force on the ice.
I super, super heart him. Sorry.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
No. I vehemently disagree with any notion that there’s one true way to skin a cat. Guys do it different ways. I don’t think Orr or Bourque or Lidstrom or Niedermayer ever physically intimidated anyone on the ice, but who is going to keep them out of the HoF? Then guys like Pronger and Chelios and Stevens made a living carving up the opposition and making guys fear their corner. Pronger is a first ballot HoF and has one of the most distinctive styles around, but there are plenty of other ways to do the job just as well.
I waited all year for this?
I guess we’ll never really know, not having played in the NHL. We all have our ideas and what we’ve heard, but until they retire and books are written about them…we don’t know the full story.
However, since you mention Stevens—having been on the other end of his shenanigans—I’m happy we finally have our own.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
What do you mean we’ll never really know? People that Orr played with have been retired for years and the truth comes out. Even just watching Lidstrom (or Niedermayer) you can see he’s not physically imposing. I don’t think it’s very controversial to say that those guys dominated with a different tactic.
I waited all year for this?
the number 3
The magic number comes around again.
3rd team to comeback down 0-3 in a series.
Fell behind 0-3 in game 7.
3rd Goalie between the pipes in Michael Leighton
We will be the 3rd team to win the cup down 0-2 in the finals.
and Hossa will lose 3 straight cup finals.
and the Flyers will win their 3rd Stanley Cup
It takes three legs to make a tripod
Or to make a table stand
And it takes three wheels to make a vehicle
And call it a tricycle
Every triangle has three corners
Every triangle has three sides
No more, no less
You don’t have to guess
That is three, can’t you see?
It’s the magic number
This station is non-operational.
Did I miss something?
Will all of this throwing Leighton under the bus (cliche, cliche, cliche my creative writing teacher is so mad at me right now) or trying to defend him, I forgot something. What was it ? Oh yeah we are playing in the Stanley Cup finals for the first time in 13 years. How about taking a step back for a second…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
With all of this throwing Leighton under the bus (cliche, cliche, cliche my creative writing teacher is so mad at me right now)
You mean we haven’t graduated to “lynch mob” yet? What kinda cliched Philadelphia fans are we?
rabble rabble rabble…
I know this is cliched also, but it’s not a series yet – not until the first road win.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
While we are at it. You might as well bring up all the old stuff. Pronger is too old and we traded to much for him, Richards is not captain material, and Briere contract is killing us and Lavvy’s aggressive system is not a winning system. Blah Blah Blah two losses in the Finals I have to listen to we should have traded Carter for Vokoun crap that didn’t take too long. Vokoun is 3-8 in the playoffs for his career, fuck Vokoun.
Problem here is that with this team and what they have done so far nobody should be ailing after losing two 1 goal games on the road. Yeah they could have won one or both games for that matter but all we have to do is win at home where we hold the best record in the playoff history and are 7-1 this post season.
That cliche amuses me
very much. :)
This one I mean:
I know this is cliched also, but it’s not a series yet – not until the first road win
Why does it amuse me?
Using the cliche, it would mean that any given series where the home team won every game was, by definition, “not a series”. Clearly untrue.
My amending of that cliche: it’s not a series until each team wins a game.
(Please don’t take this response personally – that phrase is just one of my pet peeves (probably because Barry Melrose uses it each and every year…)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 1, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll bring my toolbox down there
tomorrow night to steal Illinois license plates!
Anyone seen this yet?
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Awesome
And totally right on the money. Anyone who thinks he just does this because he’s an asshole doesn’t get it. It’s all calculated. On the ice, in the press, in the lockerroom. He’s pretty cold-blooded. Would have made a hell of an assassin.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Absolutely. He would make Jason Bourne look like a total rookie.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Yeah, and the gap tooth smile and all might have hurt him, but he’d be so quick to break your fricken neck, it wouldn’t matter.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
but he couldn’t fit into the mini coopers and zip around Berlin to some cool electronica chase music.
His head would have to be sticking out of the sunroof.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
And the players on the other team are falling into his trap by yapping at him over it. Ah, ah, ah.
In the end, it may not make a difference, but you can never say Pronger didn’t do everything within his abilities to help his team win. 100% badass.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
haha, that’s linked above.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 1, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So it turns out that this is not some long-held tradition that Pronger is violating—this is something that the Hawks themselves have been doing throughout the playoffs and Pronger knows it. Makes it that much more awesome IMO. Sorry to all the Chicago fans out there.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
the only reason it bugged me
was b/c I think Nemo would have gotten that puck. He he did earn it last night. I could see if it was an issue of depriving Burish or Eager or someone – then i wouldn’t give a crap what pronger did with those pucks. But we’re a bit more protective of Niemi b/c he’s more quiet, he’s had to fight an uphill battle for even a roster spot this season, he was driving a zamboni in Finland not that long ago, etc….
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
and he couldn't even tell the refs
not to frisk ______ (verb) him for the puck…
“I tried [to tell him to get away], but he didn’t understand Finnish”
Don't worry
Much like what happened with Emery years ago when someone stole his first victory puck, Pronger will give them to them when the series is over. He’s not a bad guy; he’s playing mindgames. This is a distraction and Pronger’s taking one for the team.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
interesting, didn’t know that about Emery
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
EVERYBODY FREEZE!
Just stop!
Enough with the damned bandwagon fan discussions and insults. They have been going on for the past 3 days and, what a surprise, we are in the exact same spot in our beliefs as we were 3 days ago. Amazing what happens when you try to insult another team’s fanbase to their face, isn’t it? Fact: The Blackhawks had a terrible owner that drove away fans. Fact: Said owner died a few years ago and the fans are back. Fact: Thanks in large part to who some of their rivals are, Philadelphia sports fans are a bit touchy when it comes to the subject of bandwagon, whether it be real or perceived.
No one is changing anyone’s mind about anything. So what if some Blackhawk fan learned only learned about what icing was 3 years ago? Does that in any way dampen or ruin the discussion that we can have about our teams and this series now? Are their opinions of the 2009-2010 Flyers and Blackhawks any less relevant because they may have learned the sport of hockey 20 years ago, left the Blackhawks because they had a cheapskate owner with a warped view of reality, and got back on when said owner ceased to exist? Does the fact that some Blackhawk fan may not know that Jeremy Roenick was a Blackhawk in anyway nullify theirz opinion of why each teams top lines have combined for only 1 point in the series?
I say we just let bygones be bygones and move on and actually discuss the series. If you are going to reply to this post with something like “but I don’t wanna discuss this series with these dumbass Blackhawk bandwagon fans who don’t know who Bobby Hull is and that therefore nullifies their opinion of everything related to today,” then get off here now. If you want to relive the discussion, there are plenty of posts to do so, but there is no need to rehash it when we can have fun and legitimately discuss actual content about the series and educate each other more on our teams.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
by Justin F. on Jun 1, 2010 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
Bravo!
Agree wholeheartedly.
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen
And all the posts about Philly fans being douchebags, etc., can go to hell as well.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I have to say
I was bit reluctant to jump on your guys’ board for fear of having my and my family’s lives threatened the most heinous way possible. Stereotypes among cities, fanbases, etc. die hard. With the exception of a few (and believe me…we have ours, too), I have been surprised by the level of benevolence and respect shown on your board. I have a new found respect for Philly fans…for the most part.
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s amazing what one finds out when they decide to not buy into stereotypes and generalities and go exploring on their own. Glad you are enjoying your time here so far.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Cheers!
See if you can guess what I am now.
by IndianHeadCrest on Jun 1, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
we welcome all intelligent passionate fans and usually agree or disagree with much verve. i think the homers who wear blinders are the ones we don’t tolerate.
Yep
Those exist on both sides of the fence. I can’t stand the people who can’t rely on their argument and so jump to calling each other faggots or something horribly similar. If your argument can’t stand on its own without putting the other poster down, it’s not strong enough.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
True
But the “Blackhawks bandwagon fans” have been more prevalent on these boards and in this series, thus I focus on them.
The best way to change people’s minds is to illustrate knowledge, friendliness, etc. through discussions on hockey, and not yelling the same inane things back and forth to no end.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
+2
Rec’d
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I love you, sir. Easy +1
"I did my walk of shame this morning and everyone was so much nicer," she said. "People were inviting me to parties at 9 a.m."
I’m not sure I understand what you are trying to say. My signature has nothing to with Flyers fans, Blackhawks fans, or bandwagon fans. I know it’s been awhile, but the quoted “no honor” is John Tortorella after the Carcillo-Gaborik fight.
It’s not really meant as a statement of anything, just a humorous take on Tortorella’s quote that I have not changed because the only times I have really thought about changing it were in good Flyers times (i.e. these playoffs) and I can be a superstitious hockey fan (yes, my refusal to change my signature is the exact reason the Flyers made the Stanley Cup damnit!).
But now that I think about it, maybe I will change it. I have a superstition in my head that justifies it (FYI, one of my superstitions is not telling my superstitious so don’t even think about asking what it is. ;-)) If I can think of something witty, I’ll change it. If not, I’ll let it be until I can think of something witty to change it too.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
I just wrote out all my superstitious rituals I go through before I play, then I decided not to tell anyone. But I hate it when people ask me what I’m doing.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Not really trying to say anything, just trying to give you a hard time, lest things get too out of balance with everyone cheering on your comment.
The implication was that the honorless team thing was a long, pointless, unwinnable debate, that you were still carrying on. But no worries.
Also, I considered starting a post at one point asking everyone to list all of their superstitions so we could appreciate just what a bunch of loony tunes we all are collectively, but I also decided that if we did that, then none of them would work any more.
Idea: maybe we should start a post like that on SCH and see if we can get them to ruin all their successful routines.
Okay, I understand now. No worries, I was just a bit unclear as to what you were trying to get at.
Also, I considered starting a post at one point asking everyone to list all of their superstitions so we could appreciate just what a bunch of loony tunes we all are collectively, but I also decided that if we did that, then none of them would work any more.Yes!
That idea would so work if we were in a bubble, but enough SCHers read here that they would know what we were up to, and those that knew we were up to something could tell everyone else to not respond.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
Pfft
You think they’re still reading this thread? Hard for me to imagine, with the way the conversation has gone.
Besides, I lived in Chicago for three years and never saw a single person reading a book, so I’m pretty sure the whole city of Chicago is illiterate anyway.* So we can write whatever we want here and it’ll be fine.
Every word of this is true, except for the parts about Chicago, books, and illiteracy. But I’ve never seen anyone from Chicago reading a hockey book, so I’m pretty sure nobody there knows what hooking is.*
**This does not necessarily disqualify them from being NHL referees.
nice try
but I freely admit i can’t read or type (repeatedly). That is the first step right? I figured out ways around it.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
or to respond and just mess with you with the most ridiculous crap we could make up
that would be MUCH more our style
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Just don't let her know
Kane is lazy! and Toews has a poor work ethic!
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Everybody Freeze
Well, which is it, young feller? You want I should freeze or get down on the ground? Mean to say, if’n I freeze, I can’t rightly drop. And if’n I drop, I’m a-gonna be in motion. You see…
In some series you can have a good feel of things by Game 3
Not so much in this one. This series could easily be 2-0 PHI, 1-1 Tie, or CHI 2-0 like it is. Both teams have had numerous chances squandered or robbed through these first two games. At times Chicago has carried the flow, while at others it was Philadelphia and others still there was no flow, just chaos.
Game three is going to pit one team who has played very well on the road at a 7-1 Clip, winning 7 in a row, against another team that is 7-1 at home, having won its last 5 on home ice. Something needs to give.
Will the Hawks be more laid back again on the road, and play the simple Hockey that has gotten them 7 straight road wins? Will the Flyers emotions of playing at home be what carries them, or be its undoing?
Regardless of where the game is played, the Flyers are walking in with more pressure on them than the Hawks. They already are in a position to must win 4 of 5, or go home. Adding playing in front of the Home fans may be what it takes to win, but trying to hard can also lead them to lose. Hold to the old cliche, that Hawks would be happy with a split, whereas that is not really an option for the Flyers. Granted they have already come back from 3-0 down, but there is a reason they are only the 3rd NHL team to ever do that, because it so incredibly difficult, let alone to do it twice in one post season.
If there ever was a must win game, it is Game 3 for the Flyers. Win that and it is a one game series, lose it and it is an abyss. Which leads me back to where I started. I have no feel on how Game 3 will be, but fully believe it is the Flyers game to win, not the Hawks to lose. The biggest single factor I see in the game is not the skill on the ice, we already know what that is, and how they play each other, but which team handles the pressure or situation with the coolest head, and plays their style of Hockey. If the Flyers use the Home Crowd as a boost, they win. But if they try to push it based on the crowd, they lose.
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions
Summary (or: CliffsNotes version)
- Series could’ve gone either way so far. There’s some flow and chaos.
- Good road team vs. good home team. Something needs to give.
- Too laid back on the road vs. too emotional at home. Who wins?
- More pressure on Flyers b/c of series deficit.
- Game 3 = must win for Flyers.
- Um, all of the above, again.
Thanks
for the abridged version
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t disagree with any of that.
The optimist in me sees this Flyers team as a team that is not out of it until Toews raises Lord Stanley’s Cup, but the realist in me sees it the next 2 games in this series as must wins for the Flyers. In the Eastern Conference Finals, I was thrilled that we managed a split in the Bell Centre after winning the 1st 2 games at home. If the Blackhawks can at least force a split in Philly, I am sure their fans will be thrilled.
Now I know our reputation for the comeback and that excitement on the Blackhawks fan should come with a bit of caution, but I like to break series down and focus on smaller parts. At this point in the series, it is the Flyers’ goal to hold steady at home like the Blackhawks did in Chicago, while it should be the Blackhawks’ goal at least force the split in Philly and if they can do that, then they can focus on closing out the series.
Proudly supporting a Flyers team with "no honor."
I think that is exactly what the Hawks are looking at
Winning Game 3 and 4 would be nice, but they will be happy with only one of them, and still know if they lose both, the Hawks still own Home Ice. I think this lack of pressure helps the Hawks more than the excitement of the Flyers playing at home.
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I swear your posts have been getting longer and longer these playoffs! whatever happened to the good-old days when you’d just post a gigantic pic of a hot girl during a PP with the simple title “Power Play Hot-Chick” or something?
i kid.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
i could be wrong
but i remember seeing him post one around the time i started coming out from lurker status…at least i think it was him, i mean his name tends to stand out.
by puppetmasterp on Jun 1, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Got tired of the other discussion
Figured a long rant might help shift topics
ART.I§8-11; AM I-XXVII
James Madison is my Hero!
by Toews-makes-funny-faces on Jun 1, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
This series feels a lot like the Boston series so far. 2 games that could have gone either way but Flyers end up in 0-2 hole despite perhaps deserving better. I know that the flyers can beat this hawks team; it’s not like the hawks are dominating us. It is pretty even but we need to win game 3 and then game 4 b/c I doubt we can beat them 3-4 times in a row in elimination games.
by historywillbemade on Jun 1, 2010 6:00 PM EDT reply actions
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