State of the team: Where do the Flyers stand on break up day?
by Travis Hughes on Jun 11, 2010 7:20 PM EDT
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PrintSorry for no Fly By this morning. Geoff and I were away from the computer, and Ben has one of those important real-life jobs.
Tim Panaccio of CSN has a great breakdown of breakup day, which took place at the Skate Zone in Voorhees this afternoon. The lengthy story discusses everything surrounding the Flyers, and it attacks things from the perspective of GM Paul Holmgren, who gave a state of the team press conference today as well.
After the jump, we'll break down Tim's article as we try to figure out what the organization will do next.
GOALTENDING
The big question, of course, is goaltending. Michael Leighton may be here, or he may not. Holmgren was non-committal on that issue today, saying that there's plenty to evaluate. That's true, and let's hope that the Flyers take the time they need to take to ensure they make the right decision.
From Panotch:
Gut feeling? Given the Flyers don’t have a first or second-round pick at the upcoming NHL draft in Los Angeles, they will strongly consider trading for a goalie. A less likely option is signing one in free agency, given the options are overly expensive and many of the goalies available are aging.
Much may hinder on whether Leighton’s agent, Mike Liut, asks for $2 million or more in salary on a re-signing. There’s enough to suggest that goalie coach Jeff Reese would like a full season to work with Leighton, who came here last December.
There are a few options at goaltender via free agency that wouldn't break the bank -- Chris Mason and Dan Ellis come to mind, if they're allowed to get to July 1 by their clubs. But it does seem that a trade is more likely. It's always tough to speculate on a trade, but we've been doing it for months around these parts.
We won't get into specific speculation on that just yet, but to me, the news today that the Flyers are taking the time to think about the goaltending situation can be looked at in two ways.
- The good way: they aren't letting the success of the playoffs cloud their decision making, thinking that Michael Leighton is the answer.
- The bad way: they're still thinking that Michael Leighton can be the answer.
Overall, Panaccio says that "goaltending remains the top offseason priority for the Flyers," and that's obviously welcome news.
One more bit from Panotch on goaltending. He's saying that Johan Backlund signed a two-year contract with the Flyers. There were questions on whether he would re-sign, feeling as though he didn't have a chance in the organization. Maybe riding the bench for such a successful playoff run changed his mind, or maybe there were never even issues at all.
THE THIRD PAIRING
The quotes from Holmgren today regarding the third defensive pairing are troubling.
And although the Flyers lacked for adequate NHL-ready depth on defense in the playoffs, Holmgren said he doesn’t feel the need to upgrade there in free agency. The third pair could improve.
Holmgren said the answers are right here.
"Our guys need opportunities to play," he said, later referring to young Ryan Parent, who the club hasn’t given up on. "Our coaches did a good job of playing their best players in the playoffs. … Do we need to find a guy? I think we have those guys."
That's Paul Holmgren essentially saying that he's not going to go out and grab another defenseman. He thinks that Ryan Parent, Lukas Krajicek, Danny Syvret and Oskars Bartulis are solutions on the third D pairing. I disagree, and I think the playoffs proved that they aren't.
I'm fine with Krajicek. He's mobile, he's big, and he's a good depth defender. I like Bartulis as a seventh defenseman too. It's true that Ryan Parent was injured for a big chunk of the regular season and that he didn't see much playing time because of it, but he had plenty of opportunities to redeem himself in these playoffs. There's a reason he only played three minutes a night (if that) in the playoffs.
THE CENTER POSITION
Having a ton of good centermen is a great thing, but when you have five guys that play the position naturally, and most of those guys are less-effective if not downright terrible when playing a different forward position, that good problem turns into a bad one. It means you're getting less out of your players than you should be.
We saw it first hand in these playoffs. Jeff Carter struggled at wing. Claude Giroux has struggled at wing this season. It's just not a good situation for the Flyers to be in.
"I think we have four good centers, five with Blair Betts," Holmgren said. "It’s a nice problem to have in my opinion."
[...]
"That’s something we have to discuss," Holmgren said, adding he wants this team stacked on defense and stacked down the middle.
Said Briere: "Everyone knows I feel more comfortable in the middle." Briere added he would do whatever benefits the team most, even going back to wing.
Here's how I see it -- if you can grab another scoring winger to play on the third line, you can essentially keep the lines the same as they were last season. You have Richards at center on your top line, Briere at center on your second line (still need a name for that combo, by the way) and you keep Giroux at center on the third line.
As JVR continues to get better, he'll make Giroux a move effective player. Arron Asham has nice hands, but I think we can agree that he's wasting Giroux's talents a bit -- or, you could say that Asham looked better than he actually is because of Giroux's talents. (Panaccio said at the end of his article that it looks like the Flyers won't re-sign Asham anyway.) If you put a winger with some touch on that wing, though, you make Giroux a much better player and you improve the production from that line.
But ah, then yes, you're missing where Carter goes. When I break it down, he seems like the odd man out in the middle. It's tough to say that about a 40 goal scorer, but he's the only one of the bunch without a no trade clause, and you're not getting rid of Giroux, Briere or your captain anyway. They could use Carter to acquire a goalie, and they could pick up that winger via free agency.
It's not as easy as all of this, considering guys like Darroll Powe and Dan Carcillo are free agents. But I disagree with Holmgren that having five centers is a good problem to have. Again, it's wasting talent, in my opinion.
Thanks to Tim Panaccio of CSN for the solid reporting on this story. It makes our job as people who analyze the news of the team much easier. In fact, we wouldn't be able to do it without work of the journalists covering the team.
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I love arm-chair GMing.
So many problems would be solved if Carter would/could just play wing.
The 2010 FA list was just put on From the Rink.
Goalie is thin, maybe Mason could do the trick. He has respectable numbers (just normal goalie stats, nothing advanced) and is currently being paid 3mil but is oldish (33). Ellis didn’t have the greatest season, but that could be due to Rinne’s emergence taking all his minutes. Goalie will definitely be the toughest postion to fill, which could lean Homer towards Leighton even more (yikes).
FA defense is deeeeep. Zybnek Michalek from PHX is one player I always liked, I think Moridin might be able to enlighten us on his play a bit more. I’m sure there is another depth D in there somewhere that could be signed for cheap. Tallinder would also be good if he doesn’t want to much of a raise from $2.5million
RW is also thin, you could almost argue there isn’t even a top 6 forward in there anymore. Most of the old guys are declining, and the younger ones aren’t really scorers. Marek Svatos and Lee Stempniak are probably the best two on there, which suggests the rest aren’t very good. I wanted Sykora midway through the season, he’s streaky as heck but can put the puck in the net.
Carter for a goalie and RW?
I wish I had more time to look at all this.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Good god…everyone needs to keep their hands off of Zbynek Michalek already! We need him staying in Phoenix! Actually, that’s probably not entirely true because we have some serious depth in that area, particularly if Kurt Sauer comes back next year healthy.
As for some scouting on Z, he’s a stay-at-home defenseman whose numbers don’t always reflect how it seems that he plays. This year he was primarily paired with Ed Jovanovski who can be a defensive abyss, and Z’s advanced metrics suffered for it (despite improved +/-). He’s willing and able to block a ton of shots, although he lacks the size to go into corners and win all those battles or clear the front of the net at times. He’s only 27, so he could still provide another small improvement and become a Timmonen-lite in his own zone. While his offensive numbers are never going to be that impressive considering his match-ups and PK time, he actually has a pretty decent shot from the point and good ability to pinch effectively. He does have a nasty tendency to take a delay of game penalty (A friend calls them “Z’s 2 minute juice break”) at inopportune moments, but otherwise he doesn’t take a lot of penalties. Just a solid defender.
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by Jordan Ellel on Jun 14, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Great breakdown.
I don’t disagree about the defensemen. Yes, we have four seventh defensemen and we need two to play. But, salary considerations what they are, I don’t know if its entirely feasible to bring in a guy like Hamhuis.
As one of the biggest Carter fans on this board, it is kind of painful to me to realize we may have to trade him. But, can we PLEASE stop with this idea that we should trade him for a goalie? Paul Holmgren might as well walk into the GM meetings with his pants off.
If we trade Carter, it needs to be for a package, and a large one at that. Yes, a goalie should be part of it, maybe even the centerpiece, but it would be grounds for immediate termination if Holmgren got anything less than a Top 10 goalie plus quite a bit more for Carter.
Just to back up my point, in the last decade, only six 45 or more goal scorers have even been traded.
Dany Heatley was traded twice, both times for another guy on this list, and one of those times was after he killed a guy.
Todd Bertuzzi was traded for one of the top goaltenders in the league, after he tried to kill a guy.
Jonathan Cheechoo and Marian Hossa were both traded for Dany Heatley.
Ilya Kovalchuk was traded for two top young players when Atlanta couldn’t resign him.
Teemu Selanne was for Jeff Friesen, Scott Shields and a draft pick (back in 2001) when the Ducks sucked.
Trading Carter is pretty close to unprecedented. The Flyers will have all the leverage. They should be able to get an absolute killing for him.
And I trust Holmgren, with his history of good trading, to get more than what he’s worth (and he’s worth a lot). Some people have been tossing around Bobby Ryan, and I think Bobby could be a 40+ goal scorer on this team (he might have even done it with Anaheim if he played 82 in the season before the one just concluded). With Ryan an RFA and with the possibility he wants to leave Anaheim, Holmgren could use that as extra leverage to get back another pick/prospect along with the winger we need.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 11, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
NO NO NO
Don’t trade Carter. PLEASE! He’s only 25. He’ll be there, be patient. If you must trade a center (why? You can never have too many centers, never.) let it be Briere. He’s great and he had a superb playoff but he’s 33 and he’s um undertall.
Go after Johnny Boychuk. He is our kind of D, he’s UFA and he’s 26.
It can’t be Briere. His contract is too big/has too many years remaining and he has a NTC. If anyone gets traded it’s going to be Carter or Hartnell most likely.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Yeah, but the contract isn’t quite as bad/long as Danny’s. He might also be willing to waive it considering the season he just had, too. Not saying I want him moved; just saying it’s more of a possibility than Briere.
Carter makes the most sense, even though I’d rather he stay as well. Can’t keep everybody.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Move Carter to be the Scoring Winger everyone wants
Carter has the shot, the size and the speed to play wing in the NHL. Give him time to be healthy and play the wing during training camp. He on the left side of Richards is a sure thing for years!
Phigment
Well if Carter could learn to become a wing then we’d be set but he doesn’t seem like he’s all that into it that and his contract complicates matters and makes him seem expendable when we have to resign Giroux and Leino. I say give it time and if need be trade him during the season but wait until the season begins. Find another potential low-cost high reward situation in net (as long as its not leighton)
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Goaltending – Trade Hartell for either Bernier or Schnider
RW – I would love to put Maxim Afinogenov with Giroux and JVR. Adds some experience and is a hell of a sniper with a playmaker and big guy.
Replace Hartnell – resign carcillo, play him with Richie and Gagne, put Carter with Briere and Leino. 4th line can be Powe, Betts, and Lappy again.
Defense – Let Coburn go, Bring up Marshall to put with Kimmo, use Bartulis and Krajick.
That would be my offseason plans
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
According to Kings fans
Bernier isn’t going anywhere this offseason, even for Carter let alone Hartnell: Jewels From the Crown.
Also I don’t think Marshall is ready, he will need another season and perhaps more. Coburn played well in the playoffs and I’d say we can get him for less than his potential value thanks to his underperforming for most of this season. I would keep Coburn. Especially considering that if Marshall falters then we’re left with three holes in defence instead of just two.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 11, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think that The Kings will trade Bernier. The fans may not want to trade him (I mean, they have a great problem to have), But im sure Bernier doesnt want to be a backup for the next three yers, and Quick wont want to lose playing time after two great years. one of those two have to give. Carter for either straight up
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I’m not sure the Kings are looking for a center, even one as great as Carter. They need some star wingers that can play tough and score a lot of goals. Although if they swapped Schenn in a deal, that would open up a roster spot up the middle.
by memphisbrando on Jun 12, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Replace Hartnell? Aside form a NTC (or is it NMC, whichever) he opens up a ton of space and crowds the net well. Now that he’s back in form again. Carbomb on the top line? Maybe for stretches due to injuries, but I’d like better scoring ability there. Sure he can open up ice for the others, but I think that’s expecting too much from a guy who gets penalties on reputation alone. Besides, Hartnell does the same with better hands. Carcillo is getting better and better, but that is a stretch. If they can get Afinogenov on the cheap, why not put him with Gagne and Richards? But it would be fun to see him or a guy like him with Giroux.
Let Coburn go? Serious? He played very well in the playoffs, and came around in the regular season. Sure he had bad stretches, and was the “Flyers Defensive Goat of the Year”, but someone had to take that award. Desjardins did, so did Bundy when he played. I think this would be a mistake. Despite popular opinion, I think Parent has enough potential to warrant another shot.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
Hartnell – I love the guy, but I would rather build a team around Carter or Briere then him. (assuming that those are the 3 most tadeable players)
Coburn – was equally bad in the playoffs, especially in the SCF’s. game 1, 2nd goal. right off his stick, leads to a breakaway goal. and i dont know how many times he was out of position. Finally, I hate how he leads a rush, plays forward, and forces a winger thats better at offense to play point. Its one thing when a HoF defender is a goat at the end of his career, but Coburn hasn’t done diddly squat yet. being above average for one year, with two back-to-back terrible years, is a sign of a guy thats just cant mature as a player. If hes not gonna get better, I’d rather just let him go, try and get a 3rd roud pick for him.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Marshall’s still a year or two away from a full-time NHL position, let alone being on one of the top two pairings.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 11, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Vancouver has already resigned Schnider, so I doubt they give him up. But if LA isn’t willing to give up Bernier, that would mean Quick is the odd man out. Which might actually be a very, very smart move on LA’s part after the season Quick had and the potential of Bernier. But they won’t keep both and I’d be happy with either.
Interesting article on NHL.com
Parts that especially interested me were:
Left wing Simon Gagne played eight games and then required double-hernia surgery. He said Friday that he didn’t get into a groove until early March — then he broke his foot during the first round of the playoffs. Gagne underwent an unusual operation that let him return to the lineup in half the expected time. But he was minus-8 in the Final and said he was playing in the most pain he’s endured in his career.
If you put Gags and Carter on the same line, and both of them are playing hurt. Well it does help explain why that line got nothing going.
“Is it going to be the same team next year?” Holmgren said. “It’s highly unlikely, whether it be for salary cap or other reasons.”
We don’t have major cap issues this offseason. It’s next offseason when the issues begin. Hopefully this is just Homer showing some foresight and learning the lessons from previous cap mismanagement not just by the Flyers but from other teams around the league.
Holmgren said Emery won’t know until late summer if his hip surgery will allow him to play next season.
“…Our goalies next year will cost considerably more.”
Holmgren also announced that the Flyers will be getting back the conditional third-round draft pick they sent to the Anaheim Ducks last summer in the trade for Pronger. The condition was that the Flyers win the Stanley Cup. That pick will be the Flyers’ first in the 2010 Entry Draft. “As of now,” Holmgren said with a grin, hinting that he’s in the market for a pre-draft trade.
I personally find that encouraging. If we keep on drafting good players our team will definitely be more sustainable and we’ll have a longer window.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 11, 2010 10:12 PM EDT reply actions
How painful
was it to watch the futility of that line and yet watch Lavi keep rolling them out there for juicy minutes and faceoffs? Where was the magical time out that would have gotten us a 3-1 lead or the GW? If you think Lavi and Management walk on water you’re on quaaludes.
I’m getting madder by the day about the loss.
Thank fucking god for those last two quotes. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready to spend money for a legitimate goalie who not only do non-Flyers fans think is legitimate, but one who will be here for more than one or two years (and no, Dan Ellis, as nice as his tweets are, does not count).
by Ben Feldman on Jun 11, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
What legit goalies are out there that we can afford? Nabby? He couldn’t win in San Jose and is old and likely too pricey. Turco? Old, pricey, and on the down-end of his career. Theodore? Nice #s but they were inflated. Niitty? Tried that before, didn’t work.
Best options seem to be either RFAs like Price or young prospects we could trade for (Bernier).
We need to keep Hartnell b/c no one else on this roster provides net presence he does and we need more wings not less.
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It screams trade to me, because you’re right that there really aren’t any top goalies (who are in the prime of their career, anyway) available through free agency, let alone ones that the Flyers afford.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 12, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
just some thoughts
the richards, carter and gagne line was not that productive in the finals for several reasons… one, carter and gagne were playing hurt, and two, they draw top defensive pairings… the good news was it opened it up for the briere line…moving forward the team needs a power right wing on the richards line and a real rw sniper for giroux and jvr…while i think briere is a much better center than a right wing, a second line of leino, carter and briere wouldn’t be too shabby… the question is what to do with hartnell? he can play but where? maybe as a moving piece and insurance package… in the event someone goes down during the year… asham has the heart but not the speed… powe plays hard but can’t find the net with a compass… carcillo will never be more than pain in the ass (which has value) and an occasional scorer… on defense coburn is a much better player than his stats indicate… so keep him!!! that leaves the need for a 3rd pairing d man who can put some fear people (imagine dan mcgillis in his prime…) as for goaltending… i’d stick with leighton and boosh… anyone better will cost more than the cap will allow… as much as i’d hate to see him go it seems like carter for a high skill rugged right wing would be worth considering… i think the 3rd problem can be solved in free agency…
by Elmo the faithful fan on Jun 11, 2010 11:16 PM EDT reply actions
Slightly off-topic...
…but still a nice read:
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 12, 2010 10:48 AM EDT reply actions
A few thoughts ...
ONE: reading the comments on Tim Pannachio’s story makes me appreciate the commentary here SO much more – what rock do those other people live under???
TWO: As much as I have doubts about Leighton, the options out there just don’t seem to argue for his replacement. The free agents available aren’t upgrades, and none of the other goalies being bandied about (Huet, Price, Bernier) seem like viable options either. I’d say if the Flyers can land one of those young talented goalies, do it – but they have to be careful about the cost to the rest of the roster as well as the cap situation for next year.
THREE: What to do with Jeff Carter? It’s true that losing a 40-goal scorer has to hurt, but the Flyers are totally overloaded at center. With one possible exception – Giroux. While he played brilliantly at center, with some time he could be a great winger (some info sheets list him as a right wing, even). So how’s this float your boats – your centers are Carter, Briere, Richards, and Betts. That creates a top line with Gagne (still an effective goal-scorer and defensively strong), Carter (a real sniper and can be effective on the backcheck as long as someone tells him to do so (remember two/three years ago when he was the Flyers shutdown centerman and not too bad at it?), and Giroux, who can feed both of those goal-scorers prime opportunities. It does move Richards to the third line, but assuming the Hartnell/Briere/Leino line is intact, you can then play Carcillo and Richards with JVR. The Betts line remains unchanged – as it should. Only odd man out is Asham. This configuration gives the Flyers a similar look as the Pens have with Crosby/Malkin/Staal.
FOUR: I believe that the third defensive pairing could easily be Parent or Bartulis playing with Danny Syvret. Especially in the face of the fact that there’s talk of lowering Pronger’s minutes in the regular season, Syvret would get the minutes he needs to develop, and either Parent or the Wolf can cover his ass defensively.
SO in conclusion, I think that even without major movement this offseason, the Flyers have a viable playoff team for next season. As much as I trust Holmgren (just look at what he’s done so far), the truth is that the team is pretty darn complete as it stands. The only way a major trade makes sense is for Carter to go, with a young superstar goalie and a scoring winger to come into the fold – and preferably both relatively cheaply so that we can address the contracts for 2012. Otherwise (and I hate myself for saying this) stay the course!
No major trades. Sign your guys and bring in an experienced guy to play on the 3rd pair.
Move Carter to wing full time. He has the size and speed to be a sniper from the wing. This team was 2 wins from the cup, you don’t blow that up! I like the goaltending combination. You should also get Backlund some serious NHL time to evaluate him. Late 20’s is when goalies blossum and Lieghton could be that guy.
By moving Carter to the wing and already adding Leino gives a nice group of scoring wingers with Hartnell, Gagne, and JVR. Most teams in the NHL would kill for 5 wings and 3 centers that can score like that!
Patience Homer.
And oh by the way your defense still has Pronger and Timonen to anchor the top 2 pairs!
I cannot wait for 2010-11 season to start already!!
Phigment
I have no problem with Carter staying as long as someone, be it Giroux or Carter learns to play wing, just as long as Briere stays at center position. The only problem with Carter staying is that he could net us some pieces we need (goalie, 3rd pairing d, scoring wing) and that his cap hit will make it hard for us to resign Giroux and Leino and upgrade in goal. I think ultimately it really depends what Homer decides to do in net. I just can’t see Leights as a #1. Sure he would be a fine 1B but he’s not a #1 and Boosh is at best a 1B and we don’t know enough about Backlund. We probably need to bring someone in from the outside. Now it doesn’t need to be a Nabokov or Turco but a Price would suffice as long as we have another prospect in the system
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/blackhawks-exceed-salary-cap-by-millions/article1601162/
It gets worse for the Hawks. All the bonuses that Kane and Toews earned this year will cost them $5 more against next year’s cap. …and to think we complain about the flyers cap situation.
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 12:40 PM EDT reply actions
I think that even without major movement this offseason, the Flyers have a viable playoff team for next season. As much as I trust Holmgren (just look at what he’s done so far), the truth is that the team is pretty darn complete as it stands. The only way a major trade makes sense is for Carter to go, with a young superstar goalie and a scoring winger to come into the fold – and preferably both relatively cheaply so that we can address the contracts for 2012. Otherwise (and I hate myself for saying this) stay the course!
No major trades. Sign your guys and bring in an experienced guy to play on the 3rd pair…
…Patience Homer.
I know there will be a lot here who will MarioD these comments, but, with a couple of days’ reflection and reading what has been said by the players themselves and what the press has been contributing as well, I’m starting to see more than a little wisdom in this approach.
Leighton has only been with us since December (just like our head coach) – no one really knows how he would be given a entire year here. People seem convinced that he would be bad over the course of a whole season next season, but why? If all you look at are the bad moments in the SCF, well, you’re forming your opinion by only looking at or only choosing to weight the down side. He had plenty of upside too, both in the postseason and in the regular season before his high ankle sprain. The players in the dressing room are strong defenders of his; Jeff Reese seems very anxious and optimistic to work with him full-time this upcoming year. Has just turned 29 – not overly youthful, but certainly not old by any stretch of the imagination either.
Now, I’m not claiming that Leighton is a surefire #1 next year – my point here is that no one here really knows. There is no slam-dunk #1 goaltender to pick up (unless we could kidnap Miller or Lundqvist and have them wear the jersey of one of our prospects). I know that Carter has high trade value right now, but are we completely certain that, if he goes, that everyone else will pick up the slack? Carter is our one proven scorer in the regular season. Yes, he has been disappointing in the past couple of postseasons, but there is no postseason for the team without a successful regular season. Carter has been very good for us there.
Now, will I be upset if Homer doesn’t sign Leighton and trades Carter for a new goaltender (among other possibilities)? No, I wouldn’t – he has made some great trades, and, right now, I’m going to trust him to do what is best for the team. But there have been very many people here who claim that both players have to go right now, and I’m just not convinced that is the definite best course of action.
I guess I’m playing devil’s advocate here, but I think it would be wrong if people started calling for Homer’s head (as they definitely would) if he decided to keep both Leighton and Carter for next year.
So, in summary, if they both go, and we get a lot of value in return, that’s great; if they both stay, however, I think it would be wrong to think that the team couldn’t be successful both in the regular season and postseason with both of them still around.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 12, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions
It is here. :
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 13, 2010 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Briere would be the obvios one to trade, but his salary and NTC maek this just about impossible. Considering his playoff production, keeping him is a good idea.
But trading Carter worries me when we have to match up w/ division rival Penguins, you remember them, the team that eliminated us twice.
Big physical mismatch if Briere / Giruox are your centers against Malkin / Staal.
Coburn is solid. No worries there. I still have hope for Parent developing, but would like to see a veteran defenseman w/ playoff experience added to the mix.
Did anybody read Sarah Baicker's article
yesterday entitled Leighton Can’t be Blamed for Cup Loss?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 12, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions
I did but the article isn’t exactly an endorsement. It basically says Leights did good job, but he is who we think he is, and that we still need an upgrade
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly what it says.
Leighton is a career back up who played outside of his mind for a while but at the end of the day he is a career back up, not a savior and to expect him to be that is both unfair an unrealistic.
Go Go Gadget Gagne
What if Broad Street Didn't Fight Back? History HAS been made. 5-7-10
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
exactly. and I don’t know if he played out his mind or if he just had really good defense in front of him that made him look good. His shutouts weren’t exactly like he was stealing games from Montreal. Biron did steal a series vs Montreal, Leights not so much even though he had better stats
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Truth. I took out of it that Leighton was a victim of unrealistic expectations.
But, I mean, Game 6 itself can probably be put on Leighton, but nto the Finals.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 12, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed. Leights lost them game 6 but not the series. Poor defense in games 1 and 5 lost the series, along with slow starts in games 2 and 6. I applaud Leights for what he did and we have a place for him in my heart but he’s not going to win us a cup and we need to upgrade. Now if we won the cup or he didn’t play so poorly in the Finals I’d most certainly say bring him back but he got exposed big time.
by historywillbemade on Jun 12, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The goal Leighton gave up in OT in game 6 was killer, yes, but he’s one of the reasons it even went to OT with some of the saves he made in the 3rd. Not saying he doesn’t deserve the blame for the loss (I cringe just thinking about that goal), but it’s quite possible we lose that game and that series with any goalie, not just Leighton.
Jeff Reese did something to this guy’s game so why is he still ‘just a back-up’
He seemed like a #1 when he was saving our season (fine, it wasn’t against elite teams but still)
Didn’t Homer see something in him when he plucked him off waivers?
How much more pressure could the kid be given?!? SCF and no committment by his employers. Is anyone else upset by the ‘throw him under the bus’ attitude before and now after the loss?
Can you imagine the pressure? He didn’t choke— his guard went down for a second.
You’re judging him on his time with the Flyers, 1,449 minutes out of his 5,636 minutes spent in the NHL. That’s 26% of his career. You know who had more minutes this year than Leighton as a Flyer? Ty Conklin, Manny Legace, Vesa Toskala, Martin Biron, Dan Ellis, Brian Boucher, Pascal Leclaire, Mathieu Garon, and Mike Smith.
What’s that mean? It’s a small sample-size, equivalent to an NHL backup. His yearly save percentage ranked 33rd in the league (His just Philly numbers would be 12th), he has a career .902 save percentage, and he’s never started more than 33 games in a season.
If you want to use a 41 game sample with a .918 save percentage and say he’s a number one, go ahead. But hiding behind “pressure” and not having a contract is weak. What about the pressure Antii Niemi was under? He doesn’t have a contract. And if he can’t handle the pressure, why do you want to sign him and hope that a) he can repeat his career year for multiple years and b) that he can actually handle the pressure next time?
He’s a great story. He’s not a number 1 goalie.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 12, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
if fundamental changes to his game happened this year then why include prior performance in your analysis of him?
Niemi is a rookie with many opportunities ahead of him, has no experience/PTSD of being a journeyman, and probably no wife/kids/home in NC/home in Canada to worry about
Leighton was picked up specifically to “perform or go away” just like Betts (try out contract then extension for good performance) except he was continued to let twist in wind without an extension
If the money he wants is prohibitive then he can go his own way but he deserves a chance to be our #1 goalie
Fundamental change = staying back in his net. Which was what everyone was bitching about in the Cup finals because he was TOO far back in his net. If the only way Leighton can find success is staying back in his net, that isn’t a fundamental change. That’s making a bad goalie average.
Niemi is a whole two years younger than Leighton. And I still have no idea what a history of being a journeyman or having a family has to do with anything. Does having a wife/kids/home mean one player has an excuse for being less good? You’re just looking for excuses – and going outside of hockey – for why Leighton isn’t very good.
Lastly, I still have no idea why Leighton not getting an extension is such a problem for you. So Johan Backlund, Arron Asham, Lukas Krajicek, Dan Carcillo, Ryan Parent, Darroll Powe, and Braydon Coburn were let to “twist in the wind without an extension” too?
Players contracts run out. Without the Flyers even giving Leighton that tryout, he’s looking to play in Europe next year. But that’s not enough for you, because the Flyers should extend a guy who – in your words – required the TEAM to “fundamental[ly] change” his game in order to make him average. So the team should invest even more money and resources to a 29 year old, journeyman goaltender who is worried about his wife/kids/home and cannot perform under pressure.
That’s not how you run a hockey team.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m saying that he was under more pressure than needed because management did not recognize that he earned an extension. None of the other players you listed whose contracts are coming to an end earned a renewal to me then way Leighton did. Are you saying that Backlund made a significant contribution to the Flyers in the regular season? Did any of the other names you mentioned? Besides Backlund do any of the other names fill a meaningful, difficult to fill void? To think the pressure to be a provider isn’t higher on a person with a spouse and kids is ridiculous. It certainly seems like the players think of him as deserving to come back. I hope Homer does too.
To think the pressure to be a provider isn’t higher on a person with a spouse and kids is ridiculous.
So he’s excused for sucking? This is where I lose you. When you’re on the ice, it shouldn’t matter if you have to support your strip-club addiction, your 5 baby-mommas, or your wife and kids. The guy was getting paid $600,000 this year to play hockey and you’re saying how much pressure was on him because he doesn’t have a job next year.
How many people in the NHL don’t have jobs next year and were in high pressure situations? Hm… The guy at the other and of the ice. But we don’t know if he has kids, so he wasn’t under as much pressure.
It’s crap.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Clearly, I disagree that he sucked. And I think the pressure on him was extraordinary (to him it was potentially his last chance to shine— if he went 1 for 8 then that’s that career’s over). Be realistic— a players personal life affects their game and a good manager/coach/boss should know that. When did empathy die?
And furthermore, I guess we should now never trade anyone with a family, because that’s real tough on the kids. We need to immediately sign all young players to 20 year contracts to ensure their personal life never gets untracked.
Your argument that an athletes personal life should in any way factor into contracts is ridiculous. How many times do you hear athletes around free agency or trade deadlines say, “This is a business.”?
Just to clarify:
When should management have recognized that Leighton earned an extension?
Was it after he went 4-0-1 in his first five starts? Or when he went 8-0-1 in his first 10 starts (He got a ND in Ottawa after giving up 2 goals on 7 shots)? Keep in mind, during this run Ray Emery was returning after his 11 start.
Was it at the trade deadline, after 18 starts? Was it after he got injured in his 26th start? Or was it during the Eastern Conference Finals?
When should management have recognized that Leighton earned an extension? A guy who failed to have a .900 save percentage in 27% of the games he started…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The answer is...
The Olympic Break
13-3-1 with a 2.18 goals-against average and .926 save percentage
Losses: 2-1 to Minnesota, 1-0 to Edmonton, and the blowout in Toronto (defense took the night off too)
I’m a firm believer in Thank You notes and Leighton should have gotten an extension as a TY for saving our season. He would have come cheaper than 2 mil too! ! p
Lost. You really are. We should weaken the team in a key position for next season to thank a waiver wire overachiever for performing above his head for half a season?
Does that sound as stupid to anybody else as it does to me?
The team played amazing around a below average/average goaltender. Don’t make the same mistake again, I’m guessing you didn’t follow this team closely before this year. Boucher, Esche, etc.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jun 13, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Emery was done, No one worth trading for, and the Kid ‘came to Jesus’ under Reese, worth a million bucks to me
We’ll see what happens! As long as the team wins, I couldn’t care less about being wrong. And hopefully he survives being run over by the bus and lives happily ever after!
Started watching PHL 17 way back and my sweater has food stains from 20 yrs ago.
Seriously though I love the site.
And I think the Flyers need to shorten their pre-game skate and stay in town after away games. A good night’s sleep and stored energy would help the slow starts. That late night flight back from Game 5 stole precious minutes of slumber. Its the hours before midnight that matter most!
18 games. A guy plays 18 games and deserves an extension.
I can only hope that you never work in the Flyers front office.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
GFS – Goalie Fetish Syndrome. I’ve observed this phenomenon in hockey culture. Many cases have been reported with rookie pitchers as well. Attachment is augmented by miracle play-off runs or ROY performances. Prognosis: When player regresses to the mean, affected people describe the feeling as getting hit in the face by the loader bucket of a John Deere back hoe.
I like it! But Kyle Kendrick’s 2007 isn’t included, right?? Cause he’s turned out to be AWESOME.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m a girl. I’m very emotional and sentimental. I have a thing for goalies. There are cases when I care more about the players than the team as a whole (i.e. even if Gags sucked, wasn’t able to skate or shoot properly and his number of goals would equal zero, I would never ever say that we need to get rid of him. I would stay stubborn and I would think that people calling for a Gagne trade are bunch of blockheads. Yes, I can get that delusional when it comes to my favorites.)
BUT… You can’t base the decision as to offer an extension or not on the private life of the particular player. As was said, and whether we like it or not, hockey is a businees, and it’s not different from any other kind of business. If a company needs to dismiss their employees, they do it. They can’t get affected by whether this guy has a family or not. Empathy? There’s no place for it in business.
So yeah, I completely agree with Geoff here. And just for the record, I love Leighton. Very much.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
I'm going to continue the point...
…that was mentioned above – since it’s now the off-season and it’s all we can talk about, really.
So, we know for a fact that there is no possible way Leighton could be made better with a full season here – is that what we are collectively claiming? Yes, he gave up goals he (and we) would rather not have seen go in during the SCF, but I bet that’s all he and Reese would be working on changing all off-season. Are we claiming that this goaltender cannot be made better through better coaching and working harder? He already has a very good defense in front of him, one of whom has gone on-record as supporting him (Pronger), and the many of the forwards feel the same about him.
Again, I’ll stand by whatever conclusion the front office comes up with (at least at first, as any fan would), but there’s this collective thought here that it would be impossible for us to be successful with Leighton, and I don’t think there’s enough evidence here to definitively condemn him.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 12, 2010 4:54 PM EDT reply actions
My issue is that, during the playoffs, when he let in a goal (his fault or not) or was nervous, Leighton had a tendency to go back in his net, and not play the angles correctly. That was his biggest mechanical problem. Can you fix that? Sure, I guess. Gaining experience and just going through these things is probably the best way to not get nervous, and, well … the Stanley Cup Final’s the best way to gain experience like that you can ask for.
The other problem with Leighton that became, I think, more and more evident throughout his play in the postseason is that his five-hole can easily be exposed. I mean, think back even to game 7 against Boston. Montreal got him five-hole a couple of times, and I don’t need to tell you how many times Chicago got him five-hole, especially in game 6. Is that correctable? I don’t know how much if his inability to close his five-hole is due to the stance Reese is teaching him, if it’s just a matter of too slow of a reaction, or what.
I will say that I do not envy Homer right now. I don’t know how you come up with answers for questions like these.
I completely agree. I don’t envy Homer right now either.
I think he’s going to have to lean on Reese big time for an opinion, and go with his gut afterwards.
Again, I only made these posts in the first place because no one was giving him a chance, and I think we have to at least be open-minded to scenarios where he ends up staying. If he stays ro goes, I’ll trust Homer’s judgement. He’s been pretty good so far.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 12, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
“Ro” should be “or” above.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 12, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 13, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
It's making me sick
Leighton saves our season and gets no contract
Then he saves our playoffs and gets no contract
Then he faces either beating a supercharged Hawks team or be the SCF Goat— all the while worrying about putting food on the table for the wife and 2 young girls or moving for the 9th time in 5 years
SHAME ON MANAGEMENT
Minimum salary
Is like $350k, I dont think he needs to worry about food on the tables
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
He's almost certain
To get a contract from some team. He just went to the Stanley Cup Finals. That doesn’t mean we have to keep him, especially as our starter.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 12, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. He’ll have no trouble getting a one-way NHL contract this summer, and perhaps even a multi-year one at that, whether it’s with the Flyers or not. His best offers will probably come from the Edmontons and Atlantas of the league, but that’s to be expected and, frankly, he’s more likely to put down some legitimate roots in a place like that than here, given how quickly we tend to get over our goalies.
by Ben Feldman on Jun 12, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You know who else saved our season? Brian Boucher.
You know who else saved our playoffs? Ville Leino.
And you’re shaming management for not taking a 41 game sample as proof that the other 8 teams in 5 years were entirely wrong about him.
Just because he’s a great story doesn’t mean he’s worth signing long term. See how that happened with Randy Jones? Rick DiPietro? Cristobal Huet? Players get hot. They play well in short spurts. It’s called small sample size. The Flyers don’t owe Leighton anything more than a “thank you”, since they did just as much for him as he did for them. The Flyers resurrected his career. They gave him a chance to stay in the NHL after being dropped by the second worst team in the NHL, they gave him his first chance to start in the NHL since before the lockout, and they gave him his first chance to play in the NHL playoffs. Now they OWE him a long-term highly paid contract too?
Child, please.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Farm system
how long until we can give say Riopel a chance to play?
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Riopel
needs time in the AHL, and it appears that he’s going to be spending another year in juniors. We have too much depth in goal to split between the NHL, AHL and ECHL. But no-one amongst all our depth is an NHL starter. That’s our problem.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 12, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
like I put in my top post, what are the chances we can sign Afinogenov? He would be perfect with the third line and should only cost around 2 mil?
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
For What It's Worth
Probably don’t want to hear from a Hawks fan but here goes. Don’t break up the team. You’re strong down the middle on 4 lines. Why give that advantage up, especially knowing that Briere and/or Carter could break down again (hopefully not both)? The team chemistry you guys have is phenomenal; unless you’re slotting 4th liners in and out, or can make an obvious upgrade why do it? The place to make a change is 5th-6th d-men. Sure one of Bartulis, Parent, etc may pan out but you can probably get a reasonably priced veteran free agent that will give you a solid 10+ minutes a game — something that would have made Game 5 and 6 closer contests IMO. Goalie is a tough one; Ellis might be worth the pick up.
Just have to say, you guys put together a great performance from game 83+ on. Can’t say I’ve ever been a Flyer fan, but I got to admit I had/have a ton of respect for this years team. Well, maybe not Pronger, being an ex-Blues and all that didn’t help; Burish was wrong though in his biggest idiot comment — that’s got to be either Matt Cooke or Sean Avery (or even Alex Burrows).
I haven’t seen much of Mason this season but I saw him at the World’s in Germany when he was in the net for Canada. Boy was he horrific. I would take Leighton over Mason anytime. I don’t know how much wise would it be to keep Leights but I honestly don’t think that Mason would be solution for us.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Yes! Nice new pic, Katchis! :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 13, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Priorities
Hearing (well, reading) a lot of people discussing what we need to do in goal and how we shouldn’t trade Carter is interesting to me, because, believe it or not, I don’t view those two things as the highest priorities for the Flyers. So here’s what I think.
1. Sign Giroux and Leino. Giroux needs a long contract, I’d give Leino a year or two year deal, but those are two players we absolutely need to have on our roster going forward.
2. I’m guessing that taking care of those two players will make it hard for us to keep the rest of the players. And regardless of what anyone thinks about Carter, Briere, and Hartnell, Carter is the easiest one to move. The most appealing single player to trade him for, in my mind, is Bobby Ryan, but we really need a RW, and that’s just not his natural position. Assuming we can’t get The Guy by shopping Carter, the very worst we can do is free up a ton of cap space and sign Giroux and Leino.
3. Goaltending. Unless Holmgren can pull off a miracle, I don’t see us getting a substantial improvement in net for next season (i.e., a guy who can steal games and series on a regular basis). Carey Price would get run out of town quicker than Adam Burish after talking trash about Prongs, and he’s one player I wouldn’t give up Carter for (it’d be a huge mistake if we did). Other than Price, I can’t think of a single netminder who may be available that could help us to a Cup, and they’d all cost us a ton of money. I think it’s far more important to improve the third defensive pairing than to get a marginal upgrade in net (at best).
The bottom line in my book is we need to sign Giroux and Leino, improve the 3rd defensive pair, and get someone to snipe at RW. I don’t really care what it takes to do all this, but at least two of the three need to be done. And I think trading Carter would let us do just that.
Parent
While I wasn’t impressed with his play for most of the playoffs, or really after he came back from his injury. The one area he did an above average job was on the PK. Now I haven’t looked at stats so feel free to prove me wrong here, but I felt that when it was Pronger (especially) or another one of the top 4, that I would much rather have him out there killing the penalty than any of Krajicek, Oscars, or Syvret. I really noticed this in games 5 and 6 when their PP finally broke out of it’s slump (while Pronger was in the box). So I wonder if having him and his 2 mins of playing time available just for the PK would have been a better use than the others as a pure special case scenario, since Oscars really didn’t substantially more time in hindsight.
Going forward I still think he can be a good #5/6 who needs to be a guy we can count on for the PK. As much as I hate to say it I see him being a Luke Richardson type of player.
From what I could gather comparing numbers from NHL.com and Behind the Net, Parent played 107 minutes on the PK this year and BtN says he was on the ice for 10 goals. Per 60 minutes of ice time, only Bartulis (17 minutes) and Carle (153 minutes) were better.
So, yeah, Parent’s pretty good on the PK.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 13, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I get this, and next year may tell the tale after Lavy gets a full off-season and training camp to look at everyone again and decide who is going to be the 6th or 7th guy (assuming the Flyers make a move and pick up a true 5th), but this year’s playoffs proved to me you need at least 5 good guys that can go on any shift. There are going to be times your third D pair might be a liability, but I think if we had at least one (better two) guys that could have been put out there in most situations the Flyers could have won it all.
If they had been able to get the top two/four a complete two shift break game in game out, and if the bottom pair hadn’t been an almost certain turnover machine it would have helped with fatigue and also the mental aspect. If we’re all sitting here saying, “Well, there’s the third pair, here comes a turnover/goal”, you know they all see it too. That can’t be good for your psyche while playing a game, thinking how you need to get back out there or something bad will happen.
So you need at least one more guy who is solid. And I can’t see having a guy on the bench who may get 6 min a game only killing penalties, just doesn’t seem worth the spot.
by JerseyDriver on Jun 14, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed entirely. I think Krajicek was serviceable if not good enough. I like Krajicek, but there’s no denying he wasn’t good enough to make up for Parent/Bartulis. If the team is only playing 5 defensemen, whoever the 5th guy is needs to be better than Lukas. If Parent/Bartulis were playing better, maybe Krajicek is good enough.
Still, Krajicek should not be re-signed.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 14, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd love to see Boychuk in a Flyer uniform.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 15, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
keeping carter
there’s no way the team can get any better with him which is not to say he isn’t a great player… put another way, losing him could be a real blow unless he can be replaced by a young, tough, skilled right wing… the other missing peice is a bruising 3rd/2nd line d man… even though lites and boosh are 2nd stringers they are better than most than are available… good d and good checking will give them plenty of wins while drafting a grooming someone..
by Elmo the faithful fan on Jun 13, 2010 3:32 PM EDT reply actions
Briere line name
If Leach, Clarke, and Barber were the lethal “LCB Line” back in the 70s, does that make Leino-Hartnell-Brierel the LHB Line?
That is an interesting idea, was trying to work on something with smurf involved, but it hasn’t gone anywhere.
by JerseyDriver on Jun 15, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
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