Holmgren makes play for Turco, too, but he opts for July 1 frenzy
by Travis Hughes on Jun 28, 2010 12:02 PM EDT
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The Flyers made an offer to more than one soon-to-be free agent goaltender this weekend. According to ESPN's E.J. Hradek and Pierre LeBrun, Paul Holmgren contacted Marty Turco with the permission of the Dallas Stars.
From Hradek, in a portion of his blog that's thankfully in front of ESPN's ridiculous "Insider" pay wall:
In fact, Holmgren offered Turco a three-year deal worth roughly $6 million (or a bit more than $2 million per season). The 34-year-old Turco, who confirmed the offer via text message, politely declined, opting to test the market on Thursday.
He declined. But, this does tell us two things:
- We know that the Flyers have interest in Turco. We heard the rumors back in February that the Flyers were interested in Turco. We weren't sure. Now, we know that the Flyers have interest, and that could matter come July 1. Just with Evgeni Nabokov, the Flyers can still land this guy on July 1.
- An idea of what the Flyers want to spend on goaltending? This isn't that cut and dry, obviously, as different players are going to yield different contracts. But could this be an indication that the Flyers want to spend around $2 million a year on goaltending? That's not to say they're out on Nabokov or any other goalie who wants more than $2 million/year, but perhaps we can read between the lines a bit.
- Holmgren is targeting goaltending, even before he's conventionally allowed to do so. He's just as uncomfortable with Michael Leighton in goal as most of us are, and he's only going to sign him as a starter if necessary after exploring all of his other options.
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Well, whatever the backstory here, I’m kind of relieved Turco isn’t on his way here. Nothing personal, but his best year’s are behind him, IMHO.
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by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 12:08 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe he will be, though.
That’s a pretty lowball offer and I’m not surprised MT declined in order to test UFA market. He takes the chance that no one else wants him on better terms and the Flyer offer is gone by the time he comes back, but for both sides it’s a starting point for possible negotiations.
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by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, why not at $2 X 3? That’s a pretty lowball offer and I’m not surprised MT declined in order to test UFA market: again, why not? He takes the chance that no one else wants him on better terms and the Flyer offer is gone by the time he comes back, but for both sides it’s a starting point for possible negotiations.
I think this is both a lowball offer and a message-sender to the market.
We’d all like an established G like Nabokov or Turco at a bargain price. I don’t know how much more than Homer is always interested in improving at any position for favorable terms you can read into it, though.
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I think something clicked for Homer in the last few weeks. These are the kinds of moves — especially the lowballing — that I never would have expected to see from him.
Truth.
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by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You have a point there. He is doing great moves and hopefully he’ll get us some good contracts with whomever he signs. I wouldn’t be surprised if he saved us a lot of cap room by the start of the season, and as long as he doesn’t Randy Jones anybody we may have some room if need be, and that will carry over for next offseason which I think is crucial.
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by Lindbergh 31 on Jun 28, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, well I’m not sure about Turco. I know his best years are behind him so 2M I don’t think is low-balling him. He’ll either get offered a lot or we can get him for cheaper. But July 1st is going to be a frenzy, we’ll see who we get.
But this tells me that they probably aren’t going to bring back Leighton.
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But July 1st is going to be a frenzy
For sure? That’s what everyone said about the draft! ;)
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i dont know about turco, i think nabby is a better option. but a cheap for 2 mil a year i couldnt complain. maybe.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 28, 2010 12:36 PM EDT reply actions
tryouts for goalie
who wants to be the next vince papale?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 28, 2010 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
I’ll amplify on what I said above. I could live with Turco coming cheaply, but I’d feel every bit as strongly about upgrading our D as much as I would if Leighton were staying.
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by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 12:38 PM EDT reply actions
As long as they stay under $2.5 for a goalie (preferably closer to $2mil), they can upgrade their D and 3rd line winger next year.
Hey, Marc Staal is on the market as of July 1st. Let’s hope Puck Daddy is right when they mention that Rangers won’t sign him.
Not a bad Dman. Shame he’s wasted on the Rangers.
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Marc Staal
he is very solid, i would love it, but I just dont think we can afford him
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 28, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Staal should make what Hamhuis wants to make. And if Hamhuis signs some ridiculous deal ($4.5+), then that makes Staal even more expensive. Stall is a legit 1st pairing defnsemen in my mind, Hamhuis is a 2nd pairing guy. I would love Staal here, but I couldn’t imagine being able to afford it.
Didn’t saying anything about being able to afford. And Evcen though he is an RFA, you have to make an offer sheet NYR won’t match, which would mean you’d have to offer more than if he was the Flyers RFA, so him being an RFA doesn’t save the Flyers any money.
Chris...
Read my fan post and you’ll understand where I come from when I say afford. In theory we can “afford” Kovalchuk too, but when I say afford, I mean afford a playing while still being able to address and potentialy try to solve the rest of the team’s needs.
Oh that makes more sense. To me it looks like we are going to had a 4 million dollar goalie or D-Man, resign Coburn, then pick up the less goalie or D-Man at 2 million and then see what we can add up front to fix the winger problem. If we run out of money maybe Stefin Legin makes the big club as the winger ?
I’m intrigued by Legin, but have no idea what to expect, nor would I want him to be Plan A there unless their D Core was ridiculous and they upgraded their goaltending.
Also, I don’t think we are going to go after a big piece for $4mil. I think Holgrem is going to be realistic. There is no reason to jump on goaltending given the market, and the value defenders for the Flyers needs will be under $3mil. So I don’t think, or at least hope, they will be spending $4mil per year on anyone.
Okay, but you aren’t addressing the need of a #5 defensemen then. You are also limiting what would be affordable to upgrade at RW and in goal.
Sure are
but at ~$4m per, I think we still have $6m or so in cap space… which is probably enough to sign that $2m goalkeeper and a #5 or #6 d-guy for a 1-year contract.
whoops
forgot — also enough to sign a guy to a $2m contract for a year or two at RW too… but yes, it’s a long shot
Just don’t know why you’d force out Coburn and the Option for a great #5 in the FA market for a guy you are going to have to give up good money for plus picks. I just don’t see that as value or affordable.
But at $4 +$2 mil (Staal and Goalie), That leaves you with $4mil. You still need a #5 Defenseman (Pronger, Carle, Timonen, Staal, Bartulis, ???), you need to decide what you do with Powe, Asham, and Carcillo, and any potential upgrade to the right side. Plus you probably need to resign Syvret for your 7th Dman. Just puts you right up against the Cap to fill the rest of that roster out. It’s doable, I just thinks it’s tough. And for more not worth it b/c you are giving up more picks to do all that.
and we would still need 2 more reliable D men
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by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No matter we will need to pick up someone else to keep Bartulis toes to the fire wanting a roster spot, and for the inevitable injury.
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by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Staal is RFA, and Holmgren’s rep would go down the tubes if he offered a sheet.
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
I’ve never heard of that — is that a no-no GM etiquette wise? Happens from time to time in the NFL & NBA, I know.
What happened there?
I don’t remember anything about it TBH
While true, it’s just garbage. There’s a reason they’re called “free agents”.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
We made an offer to Ryan Kessler a couple of years ago as well. In today’s day an age nice guys finish last, sign your RFAs in June so you don’t have to worry about it.
Edmonton went after Vanek with a huge offer as well force the Sabres too match. Buffalo would have had number 1 overall this year if they didn’t, but losing Vanek, Drury, and Briere in the same year would have been a lot for the fanbase to handle.
Of course it’s one thing if you try and screw up a team like Lowe and another if you offer a fair deal, but it still seems like a general no-no.
Also, Staal should make more than Coburn, right? Wasn’t he the only defenseman who had a qualcomp above .100 and a GAON/60 lower than Pronger?
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Good memory. But in talking with Blueshirt Banter before the end of the regular season, they said he is in fact really good, but he’s not THAT good. King Henrik helped that out.
Even still, I’m all for sending an offer sheet to Staal.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed, send him a $3MM offer and see what happens. I’m sure hilarity will ensue.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you know where I can find PDO numbers? That’s one way to check which way his stats would go.
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Found it
He had a 102.4%, so with growth + regression to the mean he should stay roughly the same I guess with regards to stats.
(most of the BtN stats I use are +/-, so I hadn’t noticed PDO was listed under Corsi)
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Blueshirt Banter also thinks that McIlrath was a better pick than Fowler, so adjust credibility accordingly.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which guy? Or is it all of them?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s funny, the day of the draft when they made the pick, everyone on BSB sounded like they were ready to swan dive off the Brooklyn Bridge but now, most of them seem to be on board with picking McIlrath over Fowler.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
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Joe Fortunato posted the “well-thought analysis” which was really a stroke-me piece. There are some people that were still not happy but they seem to have drank the Kook-Aid. The thing that pisses me off more is that so many of them, including Joe, have felt the need to shit on Fowler to justify passing him over. He’s a huge reason USA has the WJC Gold so I’m completely biased toward Fowler and that pissed me off. McIlrath is going to be a 3rd pair D in like 4 years, at best. Great use of a 10 overall.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t the eternal question of a draft, do you take the best player available OR do you take the player that fits your needs?
Rangers fans think they have the offensive Dman sewn up in DelZotto, and are justifying the pick by saying they need a blue line banger. Is that so bad?
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I think in every draft, in every sport you pick the very best player available and worry about having an abundance at said position later. Unless it’s a QB or RB as they command so much money. But other than that why not draft the best guy. Worse comes to worse, someone who really wanted that player freaks out and overpays in a trade.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
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Yeah I think so. I think if you pick for need it has to be a lottery pick and you have to be picking from basically equal caliber studs. Like Hedman or Tavares or Duchene. Or the Johnson/Staal/Toews/Backstrom year. Most teams aren’t picking for need at 10, especially when that need is a 3D that won’t address your need for 4 years. Why not sign Andy Sutton now if you want a slow but mean “crease clearing D”? It only makes it worse that you had serious impact players still on the board. If you don’t want the offensive Fowler (whose D is underrated, IMO), then you have the smooth, all-around Gormley. Both were on the board, and they aren’t the same kind of player.
And as good as MDZ is, isn’t MDZ + Fowler better? Can you really have too many D that are great skaters and puck movers? The Caps have Green but when he’s not on the ice they have serious problems getting the puck up ice. I’m very glad that we have Carlson because now we’ll have two pairs that can move the puck up ice and threaten to score.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I did notice that. Joe was the one who came on the radio with us, but even if his opinion on McIlrath is suspect (I haven’t read his opinion on him), he was at least under-selling his own guy. That appears to be the opposite of this situation (over-selling the guy the Rangers got, underselling the guys they didn’t).
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s irrelevant. PHI doesn’t have their first round pick next year and Staal will be paid enough that they’ll need that pick in compensation.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
*
They don’t have their second round pick. They do have their first. They could work the 1st and 3rd compensation level and make it work, but it would (again) delay PHI’s ability to start stocking their pond.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of whether you’d want Staal as a Flyer or not, he’s likely not on the market for the Flyers because they don’t have their 2nd round pick next season.
Its hard to say, because the only RFA figures we have (to my knowledge) were based on the 2008 season, so the numbers have moved a bit. But you have to have your own draft picks for RFAs, and these are the 2008 calculations:
Amount————————————————Compensation Due
$863,156 or less————————————None
$863,156 – $1,307,811————————3rd round pick
$1,307,811 – $2,615,623———————2nd round pick
$2,615,623 – $3,923,434——————-1st and 3rd round pick
$3,923,434 – $5,231,246———————1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
[etc etc]
Obviously, he’s not signing for under ~$1.3m without the Rangers matching.
The only window the Flyers could tender an offer in, then, is the ~$2.6 to ~$3.9 range. And they’d have to give up a 1st and a 3rd next season to do it.
you wouldn’t do that for Staal? I think his numbers are pretty good.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
They can offer him between $3.1 and $4.7 giving up a 1st and 3rd.
http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/6/7/1481228/cashing-in-on-dual-offer-sheets
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks like it changes yearly, and those are estimates.
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. But it’s a lot more feasible than the 2008 numbers suggest.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
And I don’t understand how those estimates are accurate.
The hard numbers I posted were based on a $56.7 salary cap in 2008. I don’t see how the RFA calculations could go from “$2.6m-$3.9m” to “$3.1m-$4.7m” ??
Thats a ~20% increase. Isn’t the RFA compensation tied directly to the salary cap? So that the only way RFA compensation brackets go up 20% is if the cap goes up 20%, which means those estimates are based on a 2010-11 salary cap of $68.04 million dollars.
Still, is it possible the average league salary went up 20% in the last three seasons?
I’m searching for numbers…
it's happened in sports
especially considering salaries/cap at the lockout… i wouldn’t be that flabbergasted to see that huge an increase in average (but not median) player salary over 3 years. Some huge contracts have been awarded in that time.
If its true, that seems very very bad for the future.
The cap hasn’t really moved, which means revenue hasn’t moved.
If player salaries increased by 20% and revenue flatlined, we’re heading for another lockout.
I’ve been saying we’ll have another lockout for a year now.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
The whole escrow thing might play into this.
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, as an example, Phoenix spent $36 million in 07-08 and Chicago spent $37 million. They spent $51.55 million and $62.14 million last year. The top-spending teams didn’t shift much, because they were already near the cap, but most of the ones that didn’t spend in 07-08 moved way up over the last couple years.
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Okay, but what did Edmonton spend? And what did Dallas spend? And Colorado?
I think there are a number of teams that moved in the opposite direction, aren’t there?
Welcome to Gary Bettman’s NHL would you like a side of fries with your NHL team that is in financial trouble?
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by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 4:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well
unless it’s tied to average player salary. I think (and I might be wrong of course) that even if revenue doesn’t increase, it’s possible for average salary to increase significantly without there being a massive issue… What you get is a few teams shelling out huge bucks to a few players, but those teams are profitable anyway (Wash, Pit, Philly, to name a few). A few $8m salaries throws off the average salary, but the median salary hasn’t changed much, so a few teams are spending closer to their profit margin while the lesser spending teams do not.
The more I typed though, the less I felt convinced… I think you’re right that it doesn’t make sense.
I thought some more
I think it makes sense if and only if a few teams spent significantly below their capability post-lockout, and if now salaries remain relatively steady for a while.
It might also be that they included in the CBA or in the discussions agreements that the restricted salary brackets would rise X amount of dollars regardless of revenue to get them in a certain line, in order to appease players.
Your head makes perfect sense, but go with you gut. I think you just haven’t extrapolated it down the road yet.
Remember, the last lockout was entirely caused by owner infighting because of exactly the scenario you painted in that post.
When Nabokov signs for $22m over 3 years but a $3m cap hit, he sets the market. And that results in Atlanta not keeping Kovalchuk and all the guys leaving Nashville and Florida and so on. Which sends the league right back to another lockout.
They could pull a Kessel type deal and trade like 2 1sts and a 3rd, but that would mean Sather really really needs to be fired. I think.
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by red army line on Jun 28, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t mind signing Nabokov or Turco but I’m concern about our future, we don’t have any young promising prospect in the system and we don’t have first round picks next year. I’m sure Homer is trying to have his hands on one, I hope he can get one soon.
Specs
We have a couple solid goalie specs, Backlund & Joacim Eriksson, and a couple okay skater prospects in Legein & Marshall and 1 or 2 others… but yeah, beyond that, the cupboard is super bare.
Then again, our NHL team is really young still, so it doesn’t matter as much as it would with other teams.
The signing of Backlund says, IMHO, that Homer considers him to potentially the goaltender of the future.
We’ll see how prophetic he is in 2-to-3-years time.
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by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm starting to get worried...
For some reason, this stuff with Nabokov and Turco has me afraid that we’ll attempt to go after all these moderate-to-big-name FA goalies, fail to come to terms with any of them, and end up right back where we currently are. Worse than where we currently are, actually, because this shopping around will undercut any confidence that Leighton and Boucher might have. They’ll know that our GM doesn’t think they’re good enough.
I feel like that’s how we ended up with Emery and Boucher last season. We started shopping around, which showed lack of confidence in Biron and Niittymaki, so they left. Then we couldn’t find any good goalies to pick up, so we went with the cheap guys who were left over.
Someone please tell me I’m overreacting…
Yeah, you’re overreacting :)
Last year we had zero intentions of resigning Biron and Nitty, they did not left for lack of confidence (not that we had any though).
Biron wanted too much (and never got it in the end), Nitty played like crap every time he had a chance to become a starter.
by FireTheWalrus on Jun 28, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone please tell me I’m overreacting…
Sure thing. You’re overreacting. Boucher’s job has literally nothing to do with who the Flyers sign or don’t sign this offseason. He knows he’s not a starter at this point in his career. Leighton, on the other hand … I’m not worried about his confidence. He knows he’s not the Flyers’ first choice this offseason. Quite frankly, he’s probably known that since he let in Kane’s goal (and I bet if you asked him, he’d say he understood 100%). If the Flyers re-sign him, he’ll be absolutely thrilled and will forget that he was roughly Plan D or E altogether.
As for Biron and Niitty, Biron priced himself well out of the Flyers’ range (reports had him wanting between $4 and $5 million per season for multiple years) and the Flyers were concerned about Niitty’s hips, thus the bringing back of Boosh. The reason the Flyers ended up with Emery is because Homer decided to spend his cap space on defense (Pronger) as opposed to goaltending, and because Emery was an excellent value assuming his head was in the right place.
We’re in a bit of a better position than last year. Last year, we were coming off of a 1st-round loss; this year, a SCF appearance. People (i.e., people we want) will express their interest in playing on our team very soon.
I could see all this, among other things, even as a method of motivating Leighton, if he does indeed come back to the team in the Fall. (Don’t get me wrong – the primary reason Homer is looking elsewhere is that he wants a more proven goaltender; however, there is the secondary possibility that he’s using all this to fire up Leighton to prove his critics wrong, if he does end up back on the team. If you want to debate whether or not this is a good idea, I’d agree with you – I’m not sure this would be the best psychological approach. However, I think Homer would know Leighton better than we would.)
FireTheWalrus and Ben put forth excellent arguments, and I agree with them; maybe I’m overly magnifying Homer’s negotiating kung-fu, but I could see his working things on multiple levels.
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by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think there is any real reason to get worried. There is an overabundance of goalies in the market and only a limited amount of teams actually looking for one. Tampa and Philly, is all I can come up with off the top of my head. I know Ottawa has been mentioned, but I doubt they are going to give up on Elliot and they have almost $4MM tied up in Leclair for this season, so I’m not sure they are going to be in the market for another $4MM+ goalie.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
not someone that they are going to pay more than 2.5MM for, I would guess. I also think they’ll bring up Desjardins from Hammy.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
SJ has about $12MM and need to sign 5 forwards, 2 D men and 2 goalies, I would think they have about $3MM budgeted for their goalie position for both guys.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I strangely haven’t heard a single peep about what SJ is doing, that’s why I ask.
It would seem to me they should’ve given Nabby a Hossa-type offer to finish his career there, because thats the best bang they could get for their buck.
I don’t think they realistically have the money for that type of deal. Seriously, $12MM for 9 guys is going to be ridiculously tight for them and I didn’t even factor in those 9 guys the need to resign Setoguchi who is a RFA, so realistically, they have to get 10 guys for $12MM. Griess is signed for $550K, so I can’t seem them spending more than $2.5MM on a starter.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
more than $2.5MM on a starter
Thats not impossible to do…
2010-11 $6m
2011-12 $6m
2012-13 $3m
2013-14 $2m
2014-15 $1m
2015-16 $550k
2016-17 $550k
That’s $19.1m over seven years, $2.72 cap hit.
true, but it’s a 35+ deal right, so his number never comes off the cap regardless of whether he is playing. Seems a little risky.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Negative.
35+ contracts mean the player is 35 yoa on June 30th (three months) before the season in which the deal takes effect.
Nabokov turns 35 this July 25th.
I see, for some reason, I thought it was going to be a 35+ deal. Yes, they should have done that, but even 2.7MM with their cap situation, might be a little tenuous this year anyway.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That reason is that idiot reporters have been talking about it being a 35+ contract.
I’ve emailed one of them asking why he keeps writing it, no response yet.
seems to me that Homer should be doing this then, if that’s indeed the case. I’d jump at that deal for the Flyers…in 3 or 4 years the guys retires and it’s all good.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel, at this point, comfortable assuming you just haven’t read this discussion?
nope, I have better things to do on the weekend, haha.
Good discussion and good points, which means Homer probably won’t do it…but now I wouldn’t be surprised if Nabby is signed to a deal exactly like you are proposing.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there is limited amounts of city’s which would even consider it.
Atlanta has got to be at the top of the list, but I can’t see Nabby wanting to play there.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t mean around the league.
I just meant there’s not going to be a bidding war for Nabokov. He’s going to get that same contract offer from every team thats interested, and he’s just going to pick based on teammates/city/whatever.
oh I agree, I was just saying, I think the list of teams that are interested is quite sparse.
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by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Only takes two teams for a bidding war.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
What we’re saying, though, is there’s no room to bid.
Nabokov and Lebron are going to be doing the exact same thing on Thursday, fielding a bunch of max offers and picking a city.
Except KHL is in play
I suspect KHL dollars (tax free, significantly more) will sway Nabby more than NHL ones.
You can’t see a team like CSKA Moscow submitting $4-$5m a year to pry a “star” goalie away from the NHL? They probably make a good chunk of that $$ back from publicity alone.
If the KHL is still able to afford big ticket players, then I don’t think we can rule it out as a possibility for Nabokov
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Everything I have read indicates that they can afford big ticket players better than most NHL franchises.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Eh, they default on payment a lot and they haven’t poached any real stars. They can afford to pay aging former-stars like Jagr and not-yet-in-their-prime players like Radulov, but they aren’t paying guys that are serious impact players in the NHL. Which group Nabokov falls into is subjective, but I think he still wants to win a Cup. I could see him playing 2-3 more years in the NHL and then making a killing in the KHL.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Can anyone in the NHL afford to pay him like a KHL club could?
He’s taken a pretty bad reputation beating the past few years, it could be enough to drive him to compete and win in the NHL for another few years, or enough to drive him away.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Would and could are separate. When you factor the tax-free part of the KHL, then probably no NHL team can really match the offer. But that analysis assumes it’s only about money, when I don’t think that’s the case for Nabokov. I think he still wants a couple more chances to win. If it was an 8 million dollar deal in Russia or 2 million in the NHL, I think he leaves. But if it’s 6 in Russia and 4 in the NHL I think he stays.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering the reports that he wants more than $5, I think he’s leaving
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
If he wants 5 million, MarioD showed a way he can get it. He can spend 3 years in the NHL, earn 20+ million, and then retire/go to the KHL on loan.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 28, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn’t the league investigating Chicago and the Flyers for those front-loaded contracts? Did anything come out of those?
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Nothing happened, and the league would have trouble if they tried to do anything now, since the front-loaded contract has been done since at least 2007, with the Gomez and Briere contracts. You could also add Lecavalier, Franzen, Luongo, Richards, Savard, and Zetterberg to the list of front-loaded contracts. Daly’s not happy with the front-loaded contracts, but they don’t violate the CBA. It may not be what the league intended, but in that case, they need to write the next CBA more carefully.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Daly’s not happy
Is he ever? Not even a Bettman @$&*-eating smirk…
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 29, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Another victim of Over-Developed Sphincter Syndrome. Sad.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 29, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
not when there are two or more relatively equal alternatives
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
touche.
welcome back by the way, your presence has been missed
I just went away until the Leighton blinders were removed because it was too absurd to bother having a conversation around here.
But I should be saying the same to you, as well. It was nice to pop back after the draft and see your name multiple times.
no, actually the discussion was pretty good. I can’t say there was actually was a lot of people in love with Leighton around here. We were cautiously optimistic.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I went away after Game 2 when I pointed out he had cost the Flyers two games and would cost them the series and got ridiculously disagreed with.
Do you not recall Travis saying Leighton had no blame in losing Game 1? It was ridiculous around here.
I seem to recall you being around very sparsely for the entire playoff run.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I faded out more and more as discussion got less and less realistic and more homerific.
But, also, there really wasn’t much to discuss. After the Olympic break, they had 22 games in 40 days (a game every 1.8 days).
They had three days off before the playoffs which I won’t even count, then from 4/14 to 6/9, the Flyers played 23 games. Thats a game every 2.45 days. With no transactions possible, only four different opponents, there wasn’t really much to discuss. And I thought most of the discussions were nonsense [and thats not even counting the 5,000 game chat threads dominating the website].
I think there’s a point in the playoffs where we all collectively realized that the team was emerging from their second worst regular season in 15 years to go on a cup finals run. And all we did was enjoy it.
The typical offseason/preseason/regular season team building discussions are back now anyway.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 28, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This was when I realized there was no reason to try to have a discussion here until after the Flyers lost the series.
Now it appears Holmgren and everyone else has seen the light, six months too late to do anything about it.
Ah, so it was a voluntary decision…
The Daily Forehand -- SB Nation's Tennis Destination.
Broad Street Hockey.
by Ben Rothenberg on Jun 28, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
wait, MarioDi is you too? I thought it was a troll, so I never bothered with the whole debate.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
hahaha, that’s hysterical.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The fact that he couldn’t tell if it was a troll or not says it all.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed it does, sir. Indeed it does.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 28, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It is. This account is linked through yahoo. Last september I was driving to indiana and using a friends iphone to post and didn’t remember the password, so I created that mariodi account to use. In april and may (and hopefully no longer?) sbn was having some technical problems with the yahoo link and wouldn’t let me log in, so I started using the other account again.
I can't welcome you back because I wasn't here when you were before. Newbie, me. But
I’d be interested in your thoughts on the “trade Carter” thing.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Eyeroll
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Why so?
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
As if
You were not expecting a smart ass comment from me on that one? Sure, Sure…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
So where is it? "Eyeroll" is it? I expect more!
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay… Are you kidding me?! Of course he knows that WE NEED to trade Carter. It must happen this very minute. There must be someone out there that we can dump Carter for. The guy kills us. We are about to lose and he scores a goal?! Can you believe that crap?!
Can we trade Carter and bring back 1984 Gretzky, hell I’ll take 1986 Gretzky!
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Better?
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Eyeroll
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Well played sir. Well played indeed.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW
It must happen this very minute.
is classic. I can see you jumping up and down and turning red like Yosemite Sam. Absolutely classic.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
They should’ve traded carter for vokoun and a 1st last march.
He’s the only valuable and moveable piece they have, and he’s unlikely to be here when this contract ends.
They still need three players added to this roster before they can be content:
a center who can win faceoffs
a 4/5 defenseman
a serviceable goaltender
For luxury, they would like to add
a 5/6 dman
a 3rd line winger
If they can get all three of their needs filled in free agency, then they should keep Carter and get the draft picks/package in a sign and trade.
But if they can’t fill those three needs (like they couldn’t last year) they need to trade him at the deadline to get the pieces they are in more dire need of.
Thanks. My gut says keep him so I’m hoping they can fill the needs with free agency.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Like someone else said in another thread..had they manned up and traded Carter for Vokoun at the deadline, we’d be sitting on a Stanley Cup right now.
As it is, Vokoun is priced way outside our range now, as Florida knows his value, IMO.
Im starting to assume 10 months from now, thats what we do!
Carter will be worth more than Vokon by then, due to his UFA, so who knows.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Few points on trading Carter
- do you think there’s any merit in shopping Carter now rather than at the end of next season when he’s RFA, considering that if Leino continues to prove he’s what the Wings originally thought he was, then we would have to fork out cash to re-sign both Giroux and Leino at the end of next season?
- would you trade Carter for a package including a young goalie like Bernier or Schneider?
- would you trade Carter for a young RFA RW like Bobby Ryan if Anaheim gave up on signing him?
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 28, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Carter’s value is higher now that he has one more year on his contract as opposed to next season when he is becoming an RFA.
The reason to trade now however, as I see it, is that they need a winger more than they need a center.
Yes I would trade Carter for a young goalie(and a prospect, pick) and Yes I would trade Carter for Ryan.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
If they make that trade, they could easily sign a goalie and get someone like Tallinder.
Picture if you will:
Gagne-Richards-Ryan
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-Carcillo
Powe-Betts-Lappy
Pyorala, Cote,Nodl
Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Tallinder-Festerling
Bartulis
Ellis/Turco (either/or)
Boosh/Leighton (either/or)
Backlund
Doable? Live-withable?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
It is amazing how much you can do when you move Carter.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Well a signed Bobby Ryan is equal if not more valuable than Carter. In 08-09 when Carter put up 46 goals (the main reason everyone is scared of letting him go), Ryan put up 31 in 64 games and had a G/60 of just 0.05 less than Carter. That was Ryan’s rookie year.
Nabbing him because he’s RFA and Anaheim can’t sign him would be simply awesome. That said, it’s still unlikely, and beyond news reports that mention Toronto and Philadelphia as potential locations for Bobby, we have no indication it’s going to happen.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 29, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Very nice work in that first paragraph. I had no idea that was the case.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 29, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
it really is isnt it?
Carter has great potential, but you just cant argue with using to get him pieces to help our already great center core and defense
Bobby Ryan on the 1st line wing and getting a 5th defenseman just makes this team look so much better. And it solves two issues without spending any extra salary cap room, even though it means losing a good individual talent, it doesnt subtract from out center position too much.
and i guess since we’re resigning Carcillo, Carcillo’s best fit would be 3rd line with Giroux and JVR. And you know what. While it isnt ideal. That actually isnt bad, I didnt really consider it before. But Carcillo does, like Asham, have some surprising skill. And having Carcillo out there to protect Giroux and JVR is not a bad thing.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 29, 2010 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Dear Michael Leighton asking 2 mil a year
ha ha ha ha ha
see ya later buddy. We already got Boosh under contract and he’ll do the same job. Thanks for last year. See ya later.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 28, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
then again
he’s probably just highballing because he knows the best he can do is 1.5 mil.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 28, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The Michael Leighton Highball Recipe
* 1 ounce whiskey
* 5 ounces cold ginger ale
* Twist of lemon peel
* 2 million dollars
1. Pour the whiskey into a chilled highball glass over ice. Add ginger ale to fill; then garnish with lemon peel.
2. Sip slowly, keeping a straight face.
3. Ask your General Manager for 2 million dollars.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jun 28, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you need a lot more whiskey for that recipe to work. Something closer to the whole bottle. And I’d also recommend that you’ll probably want it straight.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
your right about needing more whisky, but It still gets a rec!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Among free agent defensemen, Henrik Tallinder, Toni Lydman and Anton Volchenkov are among the group of players the Flyers are looking at.
http://www.csnphilly.com/06/28/10/Flyers-Talking-to-Turco/landing.html?blockID=262192&feedID=704
Not caring about $ on your post
I want Volchenkov.
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
Less awesome when he is delivering disgusting boarding penalties to Gagne.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
meh
I don’t think he went out to hurt Gagne. Sometimes those hits happen. What was disgusting was the lack of any recognition of the hit by the refs.
Besides…if we sign him then we are guaranteed he won’t repeat a disgusting boarding penalty on Gagne again for, at the very least, a couple of seasons.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 29, 2010 5:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Would Volchenkov be willing to be a #5 D-man for us, or do you think he’d want to be higher?
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Volchenkov would get plenty of ice time no matter what # he got labeled
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Of the group I only see Tallinder being a reasonable price for the Flyer’s needs if they are keeping Coburn. Volchenkov is asking for a lot, and it will limit the Flyers addressing their other needs. Lydman is another possibility, but Tallinder is far superior in my mind, and depending on the $’s involved, would provide more value.
Well, I’m pretty sure we’re keeping Coburn, so perhaps Tallinder is a better option overall.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
However, I do love Volchenkov, I’m just trying to think total needs plus what makes sense. I guess of the remaining needs, I don’t want Homer spending $4mil plus on any one piece, unless it’s a game changer, and they really aren’t out there (realistically anyway).
Your points are well made. :)
I checked on another thread, because I was sure I read it here today, and we apparently have made a qualifying offer to Coburn:
i read in my local paper (the news journal) on sunday that theyve already given qualifying offers to coburn, powe, and carcillo
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jun 28, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I was hoping that wasn’t entirely true, I was hoping Carcillo would be gone. I think with Carcillo staying, they aren’t going to try to upgrade the RW situation.
I think if Carcillo stays that means they play on keeping Carter in the center and moving Giroux back to wing. Unless they are going to platoon Carcillo and Powe on the 4th line, which I don’t think they will. I just don’t want Giroux coming off of center, his game is meant to be played in the middle,a nd Carter’s is built for the wing.
If he stays I hope we can get him for cheep!
He has to earn spot and adapt a better roll on the team.
If he goes I want him out West.
Last thing we need is to have the NYR pick him up
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Carter should really work on playing RW. If he was actually decent at it with some work, that first line could be pretty good with Gags-Richie-Carter.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but I feel like I’m wishing for the impossible with that. I don’t know when I developed it, but I developed a very negative view of Carter and who he is as a player. I view him as selfish and lazy, and I don’t know when that exactly happened, it kind of snuck up on me. I still thing the guys has a ton of talent, but I can’t shake the selfish and lazy thing.
I’ve always been down on Carter for some reason. He’s always come across unmotivated and lazy to me for some reason, although his stats say he’s really a great 2 way player. I guess he just lacks any emotion, so he comes across that way.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It is an ugly truth about him.
Once you see it you cant shake it.
Amazing talent, but a crappy, me first attitude.
If he dose not get his way or is asked to do something he dose want to do (like play wing) he will dog it!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The flip side to this fact is, that during a contract year he will be motivated (for selfish reasons) to not cost, plat hard and impress the League.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 28, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Tallinder is a good option. Very solid and very capable of doing what will be needed of him.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
This appears to be a buyers market. Most teams either
1.) Have established guys : Flames, Devils, Rangers, Pens, Canes, Sabres, Canucks, Bruins, Kings, Hawks, Panthers, Avalanche, Coyotes, Preds, Wings, Jackets, Wild, Habs, Caps, Sens, Bolts.
2.) Traded for one recently : Stars, Blues
3.) Are already on the hook for one : Isles, Oilers, Leafs
Leaving for the most part Sharks, Flyers, Thrashers
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jun 28, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions
thanks for doing the work I was about to do. I mostly with your list, but I think the Bolts are in the market for an upgrade.
So make it Bolts, Sharks, Flyers, Thrashers.
How many of those 4 teams are going to spend more than 4.5MM for a goalie (this is the number that seems to be Homer’s budget…)
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Anything above $4 million is a serious constraint unless other actions/trades occur (I capgeek’d this yesterday in the Nabokov thread). You really have to do one of those lopsided 7 year contracts MarioD and others have been discussing.. (ending up with 3.7 or something like that).
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
Isn’t ondrej pavelec going to be the netminder for atl next year?
by bfrank27 on Jun 28, 2010 4:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I still think they’ll sign a veteran guy.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding Volchenkov and resigning Coburn would make me feel confident starting Backlund (with Boosh spotting him about every 3rd or 4th game while he adjusts to the longer schedule). A tough stay at home shot blocker to pair with Timmo, should help assure that he will be effective until the end of his big deal, not to mention the cannon he brings to the PP point.
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jun 28, 2010 2:47 PM EDT reply actions
Given a choice between Turco at 2 million or YOU in the net- I will take YOU whoever you are and whatever experience you have as an NHL goaltender…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
Wow- full post italiacs fail… Oh well you get the point. I can’t see how anyone would want Turco over any other goaltender.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
to me it’s all about the price. If Turco’s signed at $3MM or less for only 2 years he’s worth it. Anymore and it’s a bad deal.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if that goalie is Leighton?
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
Your posting
On the wrong place.
I like Leighton and of all the options out there (we’re not getting Kipper, Bryzlagov, Miller, etc) he is the one that I would like to see here.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
And in my opinion at least Leighton gives you some potential, Turco hasn’t seemed to have “it” for a couple seasons now. I think his tank is empty. Of course I reserve the right to say I wanted him here the whole time IF he does come here and we DO win a Stanley Cup…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Leighton gives you potential for what? Turco had a decent rebound last season only playing ~50 games.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
I’ve already posted just about all I have to say about Leighton. I understand that I am in the severe minority there and really don’t wish to get into it again at all. I trust Reese and can only assume he meant the things he said about Leighton’s potential and wanting a full season with him. Certainly, one could argue he was just being professional or nice or whatever. I saw in Leighton this season a fairly solid goaltender playing well above his pay grade. That to me shows a whole lot of potential.
Turco in my opinion did not have a good season last year and really hasn’t done much in the past 3… The only goaltender I would take Turco over is Theodre… Anyways enough about goaltenders from me…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I saw in Leighton this season a fairly solid goaltender playing well above his pay grade
I agree, Leighton played better than he was getting paid, but now he is an UFA he will be wanting a raise. Can the Flyers afford to pay Leighton ~$2mill per season if he reverts back to pre 2010 form?
As for Turco, he played decent to the tune of .913 SV% and 2.72 GAA with 4 SO on a pretty bad Stars team that lost 11 times in OT while he was in net. The season before, he was awful yes, but before that he was just average again but played really well in the playoffs
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
You can reserve that right. I will never have to worry about you gloating over that fact. (You were referring to Leighton there right?)
Turco has been done for a while now. you’re right, he’s got nothing left in his tank. But Leighton? He looked very good against an anemic Bruins offense and the Canadiens (‘nuff said). When he faced a real offense he was exposed. At best he’s a project and not a starter. We don’t need a project. We need a Goalie. A good one, and he’s not it.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
I was talking about Turco… It’s a joke based on this Obviously it didn’t work right… Oh well
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Smooth. Have to tell me sometime how you did that “this” link.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
When you’re in the reply box there are several icons on the top left hand side “B” for bold script, “I” for italic Scirpt, S for strike through, Quotes, and the next one is a chain (looks like and infinity symbol to me though) if you highlight the text and click the chain a box will pop up asking for the URL- copy and paste the web address into the box and click okay… Viola
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Perfect. It was the “highlight the text” part I wasn’t doing. Thanks.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 28, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a joke there somewhere but I’m still in too much pain from yesterday to figure it out…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 28, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
CBA question re-asked: 23 players?
Yesterday in the Nabokov thread I capgeek’d Nabokov with $4 million…yikes. That got some airplay and eventually the lopsided contract proposals.
However, another question I had wasn’t addressed, since we were interested in Nabby. Does the maximum cap number require 23 players to be included? That is what made my capgeek analysis really tight, with a required Cote presence if 23 were required and a $4 million Nabby hit since Cote only makes $500 K and some of our other minors guys make $800 K on 2-way contracts. (!!?) Could we just have 20 or 21 players “active”? Or must the $59.8 cap include the full 23 roster?
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
Article 16.4 (page 84) of CBA
The “maximum” “active” roster is 23 players. The “minimum” playing roster is 20 (18 skaters and 2 goaltenders). Thus, it appears that you could have a minimum of 20 players on the “active” roster, although technically that is an assumption rather than explicitly stated.
I think you’d really need at least one extra around in case of injury, giving a player a day off every so often, etc.
/Charlie Manuel model
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
We're "assuming" Coburn...is another offer sheet possible?
In most of our discussions, we’ve been “assuming” that we will get Coburn, for $2.5, $2.8 or something like that. Is it possible someone else (think: clueless GMs on non-playoff teams) seeing Coburn’s good work in the playoffs (and not his inconsistent play during the regular season) will offer him, say, $3.5 a la Matt Carle? And wouldn’t that throw a monkey wrench into our plans?
Oh, and wasn’t it Atlanta that just paid for a playoff performance for someone, what was his name? Buffy? (the Pronger slaying). And didn’t Coburn used to play in Atlanta?
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
I like Coburn a lot.
But I’ll take a 1 and a 3 next season for him at that price without blinking. Lets put it this way…
Would you trade:
Coburn at $3.5m for Hamhuis/Volchenkov/etc. at $4.5m, a 1st, and a 3rd?
by MarioD on Jun 28, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Especially looking at the kinds of teams who would go after him. Anyone who clears 3.5 for coburn giving us a 1st and 3rd and the room for volchenkov or other good option would be like coatsey at christmas – drunk santa.
by bfrank27 on Jun 28, 2010 4:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yup, take the 1st and 3rd. I’m sure our qualifying offer was 110% of this year’s salary (right?) and we’ll end up at 2.5MM, I would think. I wouldn’t think any other GM would be foolish to think he’s worth a 1st and a 3rd round pick.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 28, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course. Forgot that was above the point where a 1st was included.
This also illustrates how out-of-sync Carle’s contract was with TB (he may finally be earning it, but not at the time of signing).
But of course, signing a $4.5 D-man and someone like Nabokov might be mutually exclusive (unless you carry only 20 players and get lopsided contracts, etc.). And if someone goes $3.0 for Coburn (isn’t that below the threshold for a #1?) you have a “slightly” trickier cap.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
I’ve always hated Carle’s contract and would trade him in a heartbeat. I think he was quite overpayed even last year, and certainly in that first season with the Flyers.
disagree
I think Carle performed up to contract last year, and I’d rather not trade him unless we get a similar player for cheaper (think Sbisa type guy).
Speaking of which, man I wish we’d traded Marshall & Bourdon instead of Sbisa. Or something like that.
I tend to agree with you
such that I’m now doubting who I think is better, but I gotta say I still think Carle is better. From what I saw, he played great offensively and defensively all year, perhaps (definitely) aided by Pronger’s abilities. Coburn, to me, excelled at some points of the year and then played like shit other parts. I think he can be better than Carle can be, but he just seemed to make too many mistakes offensively and not use his body enough given his size and speed (both exceptional) defensively.
Carle just seemed more consistently excellent. He had good offensive numbers, and played smart hockey defensively. But, again, maybe playing with Pronger would make Coburn seem elite… Then again, Timonen is no slouch of a defensive player.
That said, I think I prefer Coburn @ 2m to Carle @4m.
OK, just downloaded the CBA .pdf (yikes, what a geek).
I’ll try to make slightly more accurate posts next time. :-))
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
Slightly OT, but is ESPN’s Insider stuff worth whatever the amount is you have to pay for it? It’s always annoyed me that they have that section
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
It’s valuable stuff, depending on what you want it for. But don’t buy it from espn.com.
Look around and get ESPN the Magazine subscriptions. If I recall, I usually pay about $10 total for a three year subscription. As a subscriber, you can then set up an Insider account with full access.
The magazine is tripe that goes directly in the garbage.
I don’t see a deal at the moment (I didn’t look that hard, though) but here are past instances of good deals on the magazine. Just wait for the next one and sign up then.
I might have a look. I’m just more surprised that they insist on doing it still, with the amount of free information on the net I can’t imagine they’d get too many subscribers. They’ve had it for as long as I’ve been reading hockey on the internet which is at least 6 years
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
I can’t say I ever read insider for hockey, but the baseball stuff is the best there is.
And if you play fantasy football, the injury reports and stuff like that on Sunday morning are also well worth it.
I’d take Dan Ellis over Marty Turco. Ellis will be cheaper and I don’t think he’s worse by a significant amount, if at all.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions
All these goalies waiting for July 1st are playing with fire. I just don’t see a market for them all. We’ve discussed Ellis on here previously, he actually hasn’t played many games and we’ve heard he’s inconsistent
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
Yeah, he’s been inconsistent but hasn’t played a ton of games to really give a true track record. Turco has been inconsistent about a decade so that can’t be a knock on Ellis that leads you to taking Turco. Goalies are inconsistent almost as a rule. The ones that aren’t get paid a lot more money than you guys are looking to spend. It’s the main reason I advocate short term deals for goalies and just continue to find someone adequate (or better yet, draft one every year and be patient and hope for a steady stream of homegrown goalies). Ellis isn’t the best in the world, but he’ll be cheaper than the established guys, can actually be a starter unlike the lower class of FAs, and by virtue of his youth has more upside than almost any goalie available.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I would definitely take Ellis over Turco for all the reasons you listed. I just don’t think anyone has enough background on him to be 100% sold.
New Zealand's 4th best Philadelphia Flyers fan
No, but none of the guys you’re looking at on the FA market are 100% solid. Even expanding to include trades, how many guys are 100% solid? 3?
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 28, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Dan Ellis or Chris Mason…. either one is a much better option in net.
Which is why I truly expect either to become Flyers before Nabby or Turco. Homer is just throwing poo at goalies right now.
He’ll come out of the cage and get a decent goalie.
CBA clarity
I’ve read lots of contracts over the years, and I’ve written a few (though I am not a lawyer). I am very surprised at the clarity of the CBA language. It is very understandable. If you disagree, I’d encourage you to try to read any credit card statement legalese (even after the new Fed-related changes). :-((.
Thus, it is absolutely inexcusable if any of the sportswriters write up something that is contrary to the CBA. They should be able to read if they supposedly can write.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
Here’s my preference:
Nabby (only if for 2-3 years)>Mason=Ellis>Theo>Turco>Biron>Niitty>>>>Leighton
by historywillbemade on Jun 29, 2010 1:33 PM EDT reply actions
I dunno, Theo put up some nice #s for the Caps and the Caps aren’t exactly a defensively sound team. I think he might do well with our defense and would be an upgrade over Leights
by historywillbemade on Jun 29, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Theo played much better this season than he’ll get credit for but I still don’t trust him. He’s a great person and a great team guy, but he has a habit of letting in bad goals at the worst times. He was much better this year and legitimately stole some games for the Caps, but you’ll never fully trust him.
I waited all year for this?
by Fehr and Balanced on Jun 30, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
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Atlantic Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
82 | 48 | 27 | 7 | 103 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
82 | 47 | 28 | 7 | 101 |
|
Philadelphia
|
82 | 41 | 35 | 6 | 88 |
|
New York Rangers
|
82 | 38 | 33 | 11 | 87 |
|
New York Islanders
|
82 | 34 | 37 | 11 | 79 |
(updated 4.12.2010 at 9:21 AM EDT)
Flyers Schedule
Next 5 Games
|
New Jersey
|
Tue 09/21 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Toronto
|
Thu 09/23 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Toronto
|
Fri 09/24 | 7:00 PM EDT |
|
@
Minnesota
|
Sat 09/25 | 8:00 PM EDT |
|
@
New Jersey
|
Tue 09/28 | 7:00 PM EDT |
Last 5 Games
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/09 | OT - L 3 - 4 |
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@
Chicago
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Sun 06/06 | L 4 - 7 |
|
Chicago
|
Fri 06/04 | W 5 - 3 |
|
Chicago
|
Wed 06/02 | OT - W 4 - 3 |
|
@
Chicago
|
Mon 05/31 | L 1 - 2 |
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