Wednesday Morning Fly By: The Calm Before the Storm
Today's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- The Flyers Prospect Camp Opens Monday: [Flyers] [Flyer Files]
- The Canadiens acquired the rights to Dan Ellis yesterday: [SBNation]
- Why it was a bad trade for the Canadiens: [Behind The Net]
- Looking at the top 10 UFA goalies on the market: [Puck Daddy]
- Looking at the bargain wingers: [Hockey or Die]
- But what sort of cap space does every team have? [Bird Watchers Anonymous]
- The Capitals found another reason to be okay with a Varlamov/Neuvirth tandem: [Japers' Rink]
- Mark Recchi speaks about the Bruins and his re-signing there: [BostonHerald]
- The Penguins and Dan Hamhuis continue to talk, "but odds favor Hamhuis going July 1 UFA": [TSNBobMcKenzie]
- Dallas is working on their PR after saying Mike Modano won't return: [Puck Daddy]
- Sign free agents or make a big trade? What about the third option? [From The Rink]
- NHL Hart Trophy voters don't think Ilya Kovalchuk is worth the money: [Behind The Net]
- In fact, is he worth the same as Patrick Kaleta? [Behind The Net]
- Lastly, a piece critical of the Ottawa Sun for stirring up controversy and inflating stories: [Silver Seven]
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Didn’t see this when I made the fanshot so I will put in here too: http://twitter.com/tpanotch/status/17417337434
Leighton is resigning today it seems like, I am fine with it I guess as long as we get a top d-man
Let the mayhem begin...
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
If this is true then Tampa holds such an advantage on Nabakov,
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 30, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I am hoping he does resign.
Can’t wait for all the people who are going to crap on this though. Why resign the guy who had three shut outs in the Conference finals or was a big part in the Flyers playoff success when they can try sign the guy who lost his job on the Predators to a rookie or the San Jose goalie who has been a playoff failure for years. That makes sense!
by Michael4L on Jun 30, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
automatically rec'd
I have to, it feels like there are so few out there that want Leighton back… It makes me sad =(
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
there are so few because it would be a gigantic f’ing mistake, especially considering that the market this summer is a “buyers” market when it comes to goaltending. With a little patience and intelligence, Homer can upgrade the goalie position 100 x’s, and not spend that much money.
Here’s another article at “From the Rink” that links from the article that Geoff published that clearly shows that Philly has the upper hand in pretty much any goalie negotiation.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
There’s really no way to tell whether or not it will be a mistake until the season is played and actually over. Until then we are all speculating.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it’s economics though, it clearly favors the Flyers.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not just economics; it’s performance. You seem start with the assumption that the performance next year will be better with any of the free agents out there. I do not. And I do not agree that Turco or Nabokov will sign for less than 3 million or 5 million respectively.
That is all.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
my assumption is that you’ll never see the performance you saw from Leighton this last season ever again. That’s enough to tell me we need a goalie who gives at least some model of consistency.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Calling Saint Jude, aka PatterPoet95
Defending Leighton seems to be a lost cause here, but I would remind everyone who has been saying Homer seems to know what he’s doing that if Leighton is re-signed it’s…well…what Homer is doing.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Saint Jude?
Really? Seriously? No, I mean for real?
I just like Leighton that’s all. Homer will have to gamble on the goaltender position and I think Leighton has earned the right to be that bet (and I am not even convinced that there is a “better option” anyways).
As to the religious reference- I am an agnostic.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks to me like you fight (at least on this board according to the majority of those posting) for “lost causes”. Carter, Leighton…
Hell, they’re screamimg about Leighton based on what you could at best call a semi-definite maybe.
Last time I looked most people (religious, atheistic, agnostic, whatever) associated good ol’ Jude with lost causes. Hey, Jude, didn’t mean to be obscure…=)
I think you’re admirable in that you don’t do the revisionist thing and flipflop.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
So Leighton has re-signed:
http://twitter.com/RealKyper/statuses/17436490606
“2 year/ 3.1M with the Flyers.”
Now it’s really going to hit the fan…
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Bonuses involved, do you think?
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
So it’s a bit more than a lot of people were speculating Leighton was aiming for when he asked for $2/yr.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
holy shit! Good for Leighton. Awesome job by the Flyers in missing again what was a golden opportunity to shore up their question mark in goal.
Now all that’s left to do is start a pool on at what point next season we have another goaltending controversy because management has chosen to ignore their biggest glaring need.
All I hope for now is that Homer uses the 3MM he saved in getting 2 quality D men for the 3rd pairing and resigning Coburn.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
not happy
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jun 30, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I got the reference (okay I looked it up but I sort of knew) and I was not offended at all. So in your “expert” opinion is defending Leighton equal to, greater than, or less than trying to convince people that trading Carter will not give Homer or the Flyers magical powers to plug every single weakness they have?
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 3:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s along the same lines.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Why resign the guy who had three shut outs in the Conference finals or was a big part in the Flyers playoff success when they can try sign the guy who lost his job on the Predators to a rookie or the San Jose goalie who has been a playoff failure for years. That makes sense!
Leighton’s success in the playoffs was in part due to the fact that he faced teams who couldn’t score worth a damn. Then, in the Finals, he faced a true offensive team and got burned.
So why sign other goalies? I don’t know, maybe those goalies don’t leave fat rebounds in front of the net, can keep their five-holes closed, don’t cheat off the post with any degree of regularity, and have career save percentages over .900.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I may have to cancel my center ice if I’m forced to watch a starting goalie duel that features Micheal Leighton, especially considering that the time hasn’t ever been better to sign a decent netminder when a goalie’s value is at an all time low.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
And honestly, comb through all of my posts this season. I was one of Leighton’s biggest defenders / apologists. I honestly felt that he had turned a corner and that, given more time, would continue to improve. But as the season and playoffs (especially the playoffs) wore on, I saw the flaws in his game become more pronounced. I saw a goalie who had to increasingly be bailed out by his defense as the level of competition ramped up.
Michael Leighton had a wonderful year. The problem is that he isn’t going to replicate it. If they are seriously going to re-sign this guy, I sure as hell hope they bring in a Turco or reliable veteran. If they have a decent older goalie who can play 52-60 games, and they have Leighton play 22-30, then that’s fine. I can live with Leighton as a backup. I can’t live with him as a clear-cut starter. I used to think I could, but not anymore.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I agree, but I’m more than comfortable with Boosh filling that role. Why sign another guy and force yourself to bury somebody in the minors or move them?
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If they’re serious about bringing back Leighton they need to send Boosh elsewhere. Both are backups. They need a starter.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
that’s my point, why have to send Boosh anywhere unless Homer thinks Leighton is clearly an upgrade on Boosh, then I can see it.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh. After re-reading your comment I found that I mis-read it initially. My apologies.
The only advantage Leighton has over Boosh is that he can handle a heavier work load, which would benefit the Flyers if they are planning on bringing in someone older like Turco.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Leighton can’t work on rebounds or five hole? Give him a year under the goaltending coaches and who knows how he’ll do. You can’t assume things.
Every time people tried to tell themselves how much Leighton was bad, he proved them wrong.
Pat Kane is an absolute sniper and a top level goal scorer. Leighton got beat and I would LOVE to know how many goalies would of made that save if they were in the same situation without just completely dismissing that it was a soft goal and shutting down any pro-Leighton argument. If he does resign, I’ll be thrilled. I am very confident with him in goal for this team.
They should focus on defense and wingers above trying to polish a turd in this goalie free agency market.
by Michael4L on Jun 30, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes but I don’t want him learning how to do ESSENTIALS while being the STARTING goalie
Emphasis on the capitalized words
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 30, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
My point exactly. Plus, it’s not like he’s 23 years old. He is 29 and is at the age where goalies are ostensibly in their prime.
If last season is an indication of how Leighton will play for the next two years, then that’s fine, so long as he is playing backup where he belongs.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Leighton got beat and I would LOVE to know how many goalies would of made that save if they were in the same situation
Are you kidding me? Leighton himself admitted that he wasn’t expecting the shot and thought Kane would pass it to Toews. He wasn’t ready for the guy holding the puck to shoot. That’s an inexcusable mistake. That was a terrible goal.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
who lost his job on the Predators to a rookie
Maybe not such a knock to lose your job to that particular rookie though.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
How many god damn backups does one team need?
by Ben Feldman on Jun 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
it’s unbelievable, considering their are at least 6 better options out there than Leighton.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you really asking this question?
Goaltenders – 2010 NHL Unrestricted Free Agents
Player Age Team 09-10 Salary Notes
Evgeni Nabokov 33 SJ $6,000,000
Marty Turco 33 DAL $5,400,000
Jose Theodore 32 WASH $4,500,000
Vesa Toskala 32 CAL $4,000,000
Chris Mason 33 STL $3,000,000
Dan Ellis 29 NASH $2,000,000
Ray Emery 26 PHI $1,500,000
Martin Biron 31 NYI $1,400,000
Jonas Hiller 27 ANA $1,300,000 Re-signed with the Ducks. 4 years, $18 million.
Peter Budaj 26 COL $1,250,000 Re-signed with the Avalanache. 1 year.
Johan Hedberg 36 ATL $1,175,000
Patrick Lalime 34 BUF $1,000,000
Alex Auld 28 NYR $1,000,000
Pekka Rinne 26 NASH $725,000 Re-signed with the Predators. 2 years, $6.8 million.
Stephen Valiquette 31 NYR $725,000
Michael Leighton 28 CAR $600,000
Curtis Sanford 29 MON $600,000
Antero Niittymaki 29 TB $600,000
Brent Johnson 32 PIT $525,000 Re-signed with the Penguins. 2 years, $1.2 million.
Yann Danis 28 NJ $500,000
Andrew Raycroft 29 VAN $500,000
Dany Sabourin 28 BOS TBA
Scott Munroe 27 NYI TBA
-Joey MacDonald 29 ANA TB -
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 30, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Marty Biron
Nitty
as well…
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously those were my choices of who I would take
I’m actually really curious in Lalime
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 30, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Please list all of the playoff accomplishments of Nabokov and Turco. Didn’t Theodore lose his job to TWO rookies?
Dan Ellis? VESA TOSKALA?!?!
He just listed all of the FAs. No one here wants Vesa Toskala, trust me.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
well if Jeff Reese took Leighton off the waiver wire and turned him into someone that we’re actually considering signing to fight for our starting goalie position…then I’m sure he could take Toskala and give him value again….at least to the Calgary Flames.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, if we’re doing the Michael Leighton plan, bring in Toskala and teach him how to be a goalie while he starts. I’m more open minded to Toskala than Leighton at this point
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 30, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
At least someone was stupid enough to give Toskala a 4 million dollar contract at some point.
Homer is telling Leighton that despite taking us to the SCF he’s worth 1.55 a year. And then telling Philly fans that a goalie worth 1.55 a year can be the guy in net for the Flyers.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Theodre also lost his back up job in Montreal to, umm, err, I forgot. No, seriously I forgot. Just saying…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s really in poor taste for you to be high on Leighton after 1 year with a solid defensive 4 in front of him. He’s not the savior, he’s not even the stop gap. He’s a guy who played a Devils team that couldn’t score, a Bruins team that choked it away, and a Montreal team that had 1 scoring line that was swallowed up.
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 30, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather take 2 starting goalies who have been in the playoffs then a starting goalie (prior to this year) who was polaying in the AHL at the ripe age of 28.
And if you did your homework, you’d realize that Turco had troubles against 1 team in the playoffs every year
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jun 30, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I did my homework. I don’t know what kind of dig that was supposed to be, but not a very intelligent one. If you think Turco, who has been worse every year, is going to be better than Leighton, than I hope for everyone sake, they sign Turco, he turns himself around and the Flyers win the Cup.
Until then, I’m going to have confidence in a guy who has proved himself to be a good addition for this team instead of ifs and maybes for whoever the next question mark gets put in goal. I’ll support the guy who in reality had come in and won games.
I hope they sign Leighton just to piss people off.
Turco had a decent year last year behind an inferior defense. He had a horrible year before that. BUT every year in the NHL outside of this year Leighton has been terrible. I don’t see how you can over look that and want him as the #1 plan.
Leighton had a good first stint with the Flyers. … not justifying anything, just stating that he seams the play his best when he is either in purple or orange.
I don’t want Turco. The Stars might not be the best team over the past few years, but Turco wasn’t winning them games either. Plus the man has a bigger hole between his legs than insert gratuitous joke that would get you banned from ever talking again … I lived through watching Hextall let beach balls through his legs … I don’t need to see it again.
It’s your opinion versus his. He can only answer with his opinion, which is he feels every goalie FA out there can perform as well as or better than Leighton.
Nabby, Turco, Ellis, Biron, Nitty, Mason. That work. I’m a Leights defender, but these are all clearly better choices. If you point to career playoff performances, why don’t you point to careers. Leights is the only guy on that this that has struggled to keep a backup job and stay in the NHL.
I want the guy to succeed, I do, but I don’t want this team to gamble on it, when the options are clearly way better.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I like Leights a lot, it would just disappoint me if he was it given the market and the options.
IMO, the Flyers got lucky on 2 fronts this playoff season. First of all, they got lucky to play the bottom 3 teams in terms of offense on the way to the cup and secondly, they drove the market way down for goalies in the off-season.
They took advantage of the first bit of luck by getting to the Stanley Cup, now they need to take advantage of the second bit of luck and sign a legitimate guy to play goal for the next 2 years on the cheap.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Thinking on it some more, I’d lean towards a 3 year deal. Neither Eriksson nor Bob will be ready next year. Backlund might (but probably won’t) be. That’s year 1 of the contract. Backlund will probably be NHL ready (if ever) in year 2; Eriksson and Bob will probably be AHL at that point. They won’t be ready until year 3 of a contract signed this year; if they are ready, we then have an expiring contract, which may be of use as trade bait. It also gives us a year of security in case Backlund and/or Eriksson and/or Bob don’t pan out. The longer deal may also let you reduce the cap hit, since a longer deal may be at a lower average cost, since it’s added security for the player.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Oops.
That was supposed to be a reply to The Legend’s link to Panaccio’s tweet about Leighton.
I love the Flyers so much I even went to Bobby Clarke Day Camp.
by billy_pilgrim on Jun 30, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Geoff
Every day that goes by your “Waiting on Hamhuis” Flyby title gets more and more clever. You are a super genuis.
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
Travis called it
The trade to the Pens is looking more and more brilliant. If Hamhuis continues to be difficult, we essentially stole our biggest rival’s third round pick for Parent. We’ll see what tomorrow brings.
Did anyone confirm if they get the 7th-2011 from Nashville still? Because, at least as I read it, They would have gotten a 3rd and a 7th for Parent and still retain the ability to sign Hamhuis if he doesn’t sign with the Penguins in the next 24 hours. I mean that would a trifecta of awesome.
On the Forecheck said they “confirmed” the Flyers don’t get the 7th round pick.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 30, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, it would be hilarious if Hamhuis signs with the Flyers now.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
What happened to all the talk about a young goalie? This team couldn’t make the same deal or a better deal than what the Habs got for Halak? Really?
Look, I have nothing against Leighton, or what he did this past year. The reality is, he did much better than anyone expected him to do. Maybe he can benefit from a year of training and working with Reese. I have no idea. But at the end of the day, I still don’t feel like Leighton is a number 1 goalie. However, I did say that given the choice between stud goalie and stud defensive group, I will take stud defensive group anyday. If Homer thinks that going on the cheap for a goalie is again the way to go, then by all means go for it. But he better make damn sure that the money saves goes to resigning Coburn and getting another 3/4 defensemen to play in the 5/6 pairing.
The reality is, look at the 4 goalies whose teams made it to their conference finals…only Nabakov was a highly paid goalie…the rest…not so much. Maybe goalie isn’t the end all, be all.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
by EREX21 on Jun 30, 2010 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This, this, oh so much this.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 30, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
right, but Philly is in a great position to upgrade the goalie without having to spend a lot of money, simply by being patient! That’s the thing that irks me. Nobody is coming to swoop in and sign Leighton. So wait it out and get the netminder for a reasonable price.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
What options are out there that won’t cost money? Even Nabakov will cost probably double what Leighton will sign for.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
read my link above at From the Rink.
Let’s outline the FA goalies who are an upgrade from Leighton.
Nabokov
Turco
Mason
Ellis (i know his rights are traded, but he’s still a FA)
Theodore
Ok, now let’s analyze who has money in their budget to sign a guy for big dollars, that actually needs a starting goalie.
There is nobody on this list.
SJ and Philly need a goalie, the other potential goalie need teams are looking for someone probably under $2MM that fills the 1B role. That automatically prices out the top 3 goalies on that list. So let’s say the Sharks sign Mason for $3MM, where are Nabby and Turco going to sign for $5 or $6MM? I am going to think they aren’t, so they are going to have to take what they can get at that time.
Homer needs to sit on his hands and let the dust settle before he overpays for a part he can get cheaply on the open market.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
That doesn’t take into account that other teams needing a goalie upgrade might be willing and able to trade someone who they deem to be an unneeded luxury so they can free up space to sign a goalie.
The Flyers only real chance to make any significant upgrades is to trade Carter, that’s it. He is the one guy who makes a good enough amount of money and doesn’t have an NTC/NMC in his contract.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
I don’t agree. The market for goalies is going to be very tight this off-season. There is literally nobody that really needs a goalie that has a significant amount of cap space to sign them, plus, as every team found out this playoffs, is that the goalie is not vitally important to a team’s success.
If Nabby/Turco etc. get contracts that pay them $5MM a year that aren’t front loaded, then awesome for them, but I guarantee the teams that do that are going to regret it for a long, long time.
A great goalie in the NHL is now a luxury, but it’s no longer essential to success.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand how your last statement here fits into your arguments above, below or on any of the other threads where we have debated. Because, frankly, it’s a statement I would make in relation to signing Leighton or to not signing Turco, Nabokov, or trading Carter for Vokoun or Bernier etc…
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The statement represents a change in philosophy of NHL GM’s. If that’s the environment we are now working in, no GM is throwing $5 or 6MM at a goalie anymore, so Turco/Nabokov etc. are going to have their expectations severely crushed if they think some GM is going to pay them that much. (perhaps one will, they will just be stupid to do it.)
So with that said. You have two options. You can sign the VW (Leighton) for $1MM/1.5MM or you can sign the Caddy (Nabokov/Turco) for $3MM, but you have to be patient on the Caddy because it’s going to take a few days for the price to come down.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
hearing the same thing about Leighton.
I just am going to constantly have nightmare flashbacks to Leighton giving up that softy to Kane.
Holmgren better get two quality defensemen if this is the case.
And Leighton better not be getting more than 1.5 mil, otherwise im not going to be happy.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 11:24 AM EDT reply actions
we shouldn’t even be focusing on Leighton though. They need to go find an affordable #5 D-man (don’t fixate on the Mikalek’s/Hamhuis’s of the world who are going to get big money), swoop in on some of the Derek Morris’s of the world, button up the Coburn dealing and then deal with the goalie situation after the financial dust settles.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I would only spend big money on a young guy on the way up like Hamhuis. We are going to need to have guys in position to step up when Kimmo and Pronger hang it up. Having a stud waiting the wings is not a bad thing at all. If he is in his mid 20’s. It is a signing for the future. 2 years from now Hamhuis or someelse at 4.5 would be a good deal for your number 2 guy.
SWOOP IN HOMER AND STEAL HIM FROM NEW YORK
DO IT
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Marc Staal anyone?
If we’re going cheap-o on goalie.
Then we should be able to resign Coburn and give Marc Staal around 3.5 million. Especially if we’re keeping Carcillo to play 3rd line wing. And if we’re going to find two lines out of Richards/Gagne/Carter/Briere/Hartnell/Leino.
Then basically all of our offense is set. First two lines as mentioned above. 3rd line JVR-Giroux-Carcillo, 4th line Lappy-Betts-Powe.
If we’re going cheap on goalie. That means we have room to resign Coburn and splurge just a bit on a 5th defenseman.
Get Marc Staal!
Or if Coburn is being still a little bastard about how much he wants, which still woud less than what Staal wants.
Maybe trade Coburn’s rights for Staal’s right.
Rangers get a defenseman they can afford and he’s still good. Flyers get their major upgrade on defense. Of course that would make Staal our 4th defensman. But with Coburn’s money gone and going cheap on goalie, we should still have room to get a 5th defenseman for 1.5-2 mil range or a little above.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Any chance ...
… Homer’s moving Boosh?
I love the Flyers so much I even went to Bobby Clarke Day Camp.
If he does it won’t be until closer to the regular season, if not into it. You know you are getting a guy who can back up your starter and even go in a win you a few games with Boucher. He is your only goalie under contract with real NHL experience at this point. If they sign Leighton and he regresses too much he might not even be a viable back up (knock on wood he doesn’t I always liked the guy even i his first stint with the Flyers).
More than likely if they sign another goalie and retain Leighton, if Boucher drops down to 3rd on the depth chart more than likely they will start him in the minors until someone asks for his services as a back up like the year he started with the Phantoms and moved to San Jose.
In the case Boosh goes to the minors they can pay him and it doesn’t count against the cap, right? Or am I wrong there?
I love the Flyers so much I even went to Bobby Clarke Day Camp.
by billy_pilgrim on Jun 30, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
For the most part only players on the active NHL roster count towards the salary cap. There are some funky rules if you have players who are on Long Term Disability I’m not entirely sure how they work. I don’t believe they Flyers will have anyone on LTD at this point when the season starts.
He contract would (should) not count towards the cap when he is in the minors. However he would need to go through waivers and reentry waivers and all that stuff in order to move him from team to team. His contract is only somewhere around the $1M area so you aren’t burying a lot of contract by putting him in the minors. It just doesn’t make sense to keep 3 goalies on your active roster because of the rules the NHL has with your goalies get her (namely you can enter anyone you have under contract into the game is an emergency if your goalies get hurt during the course of the game)
With that emergency condition, you’re glossing over the detail about how in order for a third goalie to go into the game if both goalies get hurt, they still have to be present at the game, not in Adirondack 5.5 hours away. A third goalie in the press box is still on the active roster even though they’re a scratch that night; otherwise you’re talking about putting goalie equipment on a skater. I just wanted to make sure that was clear for everybody.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jun 30, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
After reading Puck Daddy’s post about the top d-men this year, I am dying for tomorrow. There are a number of players on that list that I think we can scoop up for around 2 mil. The only issue is that most of those players play top pairing minutes regularly. Do we shift one to the second pairing and throw Coburn to the third pairing? I still can’t wait to see which one of them will be wearing the orange and black next year, if any.
"Chris Pronger sneaked in the back door...banged it home."
Flyers Television Play-by-Play Man: Jim Jackson
now, the market for defenseman (as opposed to goalies) is going to be frigging insane. Every one of those guys is going to get way overpaid.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
as opposed to the market for goalies, where two weeks after SJ and Tampa get the goalie they want, the rest of the potential starters will be panicking and begging for Philly to take them.
Sigh.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I made my confidence poll choice when I thought Nabby was gonna be our goalie next year
now that its more likely gonna be Leighton, can I change my answer?
I understand that Homer wants to save as much cap so he can resign Giroux and JVR to long term deals, and have this all powerful offense. But if its at the hand of having weak goaltending every year, Id rather trade a Carter, Hartnell, briere, (note: I am not willing to trade Giroux or Gagne (side note, trading Gagne is gonna be the same as when we traded rod)) to free up space. I mean, were gona have more cap this year then we ever had in the cap era, and we are doing NOTHING, absolutely nothing with it. Unless we are secretly putting Lundquist in Leightons jersey and pads, we will be as good (worse if you count the fact that, at this time last year, we had Emery as our starter) then last year.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Unless we are secretly putting Lundquist in Leightons jersey and pads
Genius.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Also via Panaccio
From his Twitter account: “Rod Brind’Amour has called a 2:30 p.m. media availability and GM Jim Rutherford will speak at 3:30 p.m.”
Guess Rod the Bod is calling it a career.
I love the Flyers so much I even went to Bobby Clarke Day Camp.
That really does make me sad.
I love you Rod! I was so happy to see you win the cup with Carolina!
"Game 7's are tough... It's a game that's made for men and our guys proved to be men today." -Laviolette
by PatterPoet95 on Jun 30, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
They say that all good things must end someday…
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jun 30, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 1, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
in reference to PatterPoet95’s post…
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 1, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I still hope that the Flyers don’t settle for Leights. They have market in their favor and should be able to get Nabby or Mason, who are better options than Leights.
Does the thought of Alex Tanguay on the 3rd line with Giroux and JVR excite anyone else? or is it just me? I think Tanguay would come cheap and be a low risk/high reward and would fit well with our cap and the 3rd line.
by historywillbemade on Jun 30, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions
not happening the flyers dont have cap room to do that. I thought they did, but they dont.
especially if you want an upgrade over Leighton. They flyers only have room for a defensman and a goalie really. Or a cheap goalie and a really good defenseman
They offered a sheet to Carcillo and Powe, not Asham. And with our cap room that means Powe for the 4th line and Carcillo for the 3rd line.
There’s no chance we upgrade our 3rd line RW. Carcillo isnt a bad option, has some skill and he will protect JVR and Giroux. It’s the best we can do. And in the grand scheme, that’s still a pretty good 3rd line
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
well maybe not a sheet, but they made qualifying offers to Carcillo and Powe. Not sure if there’s a difference or what it is.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I explained below. But a ‘qualifying offer’ is a necessary step in making your free agents ‘restricted’. If they didn’t send a qualifying offer, then Carcillo and Powe would be UFA on July 1. That’s all it means.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I guess an upgrade over Leights would take a majority of the remaining cap space, and we definitely need to upgrade and the market is favorable. I just thought that Tanguay could come real cheap and would be a nice potential winger for Giroux.
by historywillbemade on Jun 30, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
oh he would be. I would love it. Tanguay or Colby Armstrong there would excellent.
at least we got hartnell and breire locked in for 10 mil a year.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
armstrong I think will be too expensive for the Flyers and probably snatched up. The only problem I see with Tanguay is that he is listed at LW and so is JVR and I don’t know if either could play right wing but it would be a sweet 3rd line.
by historywillbemade on Jun 30, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
… playing different wings isn’t difficult … more about shooting hand at that point and honestly people have made glorious careers shooting off their back foot (Read: Mark Recchi)
we’re not going to be able either of them. Carcillo will be 3rd line RW and Powe will be 4th line RW. Asham wil be let go. That’s where this is going. I’d be surprised if we made any moves for 3rd line RW.
Right now if we’re going to sign Leighton as a starter. We need two defensmen in addition to Coburn, or one really good one like marc staal and coburn.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
*not going to be able to sign either of them
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought we might have room, but a couple days ago people we’re posting the hard numbers of the salary cap for the flyers here. and mathematically we are strapped.
Unless we start making out of nowhere trades we have room for a good goalie/resigning Coburn,/one serviceable defenseman or Leighton/resign Coburn/one really good defenseman or Leighton/Coburn/two serviceable defensemen or Leighton/one really good defenseman/one serviceable defenseman
some form of that combination, but no room for a 3rd line winger. Even if we moved Carter, we would then need a 1st line RW so no matter what, no 3rd line winger. It’s most likely Carcillo.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not 100% sure if they will resign Coburn. If he doesn’t sign with the Flyers in the next 23 hours his contract is going to be even more since people will be bidding on a guy who is your young #3 Defensemen who can put up 25+ minutes a night.
I have read more than once during the season that there was a contract on the table for him to resign during the year and he didn’t and considering he still hasn’t signed I can only guess he wants more money that what they Flyers are offering …
Either he is going to get lowballed by the league and will take what they Flyers are offering or he is going to get a nice offersheet from someone and the Flyers will either need to match it which will put them in more cap trouble.
… Or there is the option of maybe playing for the draft picks. They could choose to not match the offersheet. I mean I’d assume Coburn would bring in a contract of more than 2.6M … which would mean they would get at least a first and a third pick. I assume Coburn would command in teh 3.5M – 4M range honestly which would bring potently more picks.
if Coburn wants that kind of money, im fine with him leaving, he hasnt been great.
Just means we’ll sign two solid defensemen instead of one.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
and get 2+ draft picks (someone is thinking like a GM).
Just a point on comparison. Matt Carle is graded at 3.5M. Do they value Carle more than Coburn or vice versa? I think Seravalli mentioned something about Kris Latang putting up Coburn-esk numbers and commanding a 4M contract (like I said I think). Is 4M too much for Coburn especially when you only have less than 11M to resign a number of players and get a real goalie … Might just be a trap to either low ball the contract or snag a few extra picks
Carle is better than Coburn at this point.
Carle plays better defense and he is an offensive threat. Coburn used to be an offensive threat, not so much since 2008.
I’m a huge Matt Carle fan. Coburn not so much. I think 4 million is way way way too much. Coburn to me is max 2.5 mil right now.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
take the picks, a first and a third is way more than Coburn is worth, that said, I doubt it comes to that.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
>.> and “shooting off your back foot” meaning taking a wrist shot when you are on the opposite side of the ice as your shooting hand. (i.e. me playing LW when I am right handing) … when you are positioned like that you take your shot and your shooting foot is behind you … as opposed to shooting from the game wing where your shooting foot is in front of you …
Asham is a UFA. He doesn’t get qualifying offers. Carcillo and Powe being offerred qualifying offers simply means that at July 1 they will be RFAs, not UFAs. The Flyers can still release their rights and sign someone else.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jun 30, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Asham there honestly. You need someone who can thrown them down to protect your other players. And don’t forget Asham has THE MOVE. I honestly don’t like van Riemsdyk on the line. I think he could have done with more conditioning, he probably could have done a little more learning in Adirondack
well as it stands they’re not resigning Asham, otherwise they probably would have made a qualifying offer to him as they did with Powe and Carcillo. And they dont have the cap room to waste on Asham on the 3rd line and a platoon of Powe and Carcillo on the 4th line. I wanted them to sign only 2 out of 3 these offseason. And that appears to be the case.
As far as protecting players, that’s why Carcillo is there, he’ll fill in just fine for Asham, could be potentially better. JVR will be on the 3rd line next with Giroux, they played well together. JVR’s conditioning will be fine a full offseason training under Lavy.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
They didn’t make a qualifying offer to Asham because he is a UFA. You make QOs to your RFAs so they don’t become UFAs and you can retain exclusive negotiating rights. Not saying your wrong and that they won’t resign Asham, but the fact he didn’t get a QO is basically moot. His cap hit last year was near veteran minimum and he won’t command much (if any) more than that this year so it is more about if they think they can have someone younger fill the spot on the roster than if they have room for him under than cap.
fair enough, you know more about that stuff than me.
And dont get me wrong I like Asham.
however i think any cap space is needed at this point, even Asham’s 600,00 grand or so.
To keep Asham/Powe/Carcillo to me is just unnecessary. Powe is critical on the penalty kill and frankly I like his speed. I think he should be on the fourth line all the time.
As for the third line, either Asham or Carcillo would be fine there. But it seems like they’re gonna lead towards Carcillo.
We need whatever cap room we can get. And having a platoon on 3rd line RW between 3 players for 2 spots just isnt a luxury we have if we want to improve.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
correction
*3rd line RW and 4th line RW between 3 players for 2 spots…
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Two of RH shots among FA def-men I hear Flyers are interested in: Kurtis Foster & Zbynek Michalek. Foster very good on bad team
Well, at least the Flyers are listening to us about something.
go holmgren go!
get em both if you’re going with Leighton cheap.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jun 30, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Michalek is going to get severely overpaid. Foster might be reasonable, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I read he might be looking around 4mil, which is 1.5 more than I want to pay. Tallinder might become the economic and more valuable (bang for your buck) option.
the problem is that the defenseman market is going to get crazy. The Flyers and Hawks (to a lesser extent) proved that a top 4 shutdown defense is more valuable to a long run, then depth on offense/goaltending. Just as the NFL usually goes the model of the latest SB winner, so too the NHL. Well actually, good defenseman have always been a hot commodity in the NHL.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
by HockeyOutsiders on Jun 30, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not in favor of bringing Leighton back, but I think it’s hilarious that the same people that are pillorying this move are some of the same ones who want to trade Jeff Carter for Jonathan Bernier.
Apparently going nine years without a Vezina finalists makes everyone lose their mind about goalies.
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