Carcillo signs one year, $1.075 million deal
by Travis Hughes on Jul 13, 2010 2:31 PM EDT
in News
Email
Print
Opting not to hit the arbitration process, Dan Carcillo signed a one-year, $1.075 million contract with the Flyers today. Several sources, including CSN, are reporting that figure. It's a smart move by Carbomb, who likely realized that the Flyers have a ton of weapons to throw his way in the arbitration process. He may not have picked up $1.075 million from an arbitrator.
Carcillo made $937,500 last a year ago, so it is a slight raise. It's also likely a bit north of what his qualifying offer was from the Flyers. They had to offer him, at minimum, $984,375 according to the CBA.
So... one more year, at least, of Carcillo in Philly. The big question remains: how will Carcillo and Shelley, two guys who fit a similar mold, fit into this Flyers lineup?
540 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
On the plus side of things, at least this is not another overpay.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
Disagree.
One million for ANOTHER enforcer who will likely be gone after next season?
Paul Holmgren has lost his mind.
A blog not as good as BroadStreetHockey
www.WeBelieveInOrange.com
by OrangeAndBlackk on Jul 13, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Carcillo is not really an enforcer though. That is Jody Shelley. Carcillo can fight and enforce at times, but that is not his main responsibility. Carcillo is the agitator that gets under people’s skins and draws penalties (something he is very good at, though he ends up in the box quite a lot himself).
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
As the Dark pointed out he has one of the best penalty differentials in the league. However you already have an agitator that is better offensively (maybe not as big of an agitator) in Hartnell. You have Shelley who can drop his gloves. You have Lappy who will hit and kill penalties, and stir the pot. You have Richards as another guy who is excellent in the penalty differential category. This is just running in to last year, where we had all those guys playing that same role, except replace Asham with Shelley.
The contract is fine for the player, the player isn’t the best fit for the team given the signings it’s made. I hope this isn’t the LW replacement for Gagne, though I fear he is.
(maybe not as big of an agitator)
I’d say definitely not as good. Hartnell drew 20 penalties, but he was a -8 on PDiff. He is much better on offense, though. Carcillo averages 0.3 PPG, while Hartnell’s a little over 0.5 PPG. Given my druthers, I’d pick Richards, Hartnell, and Carcillo in that order, with Shelley playing for Adirondack. I’d like to be able to put one of those three on each of my top three lines, so there’s always a guy out there chipping away at the other team’s frustratable player(s).
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Yeah, I agree, I want Shelley to be the odd man out. I just don’t see him being the odd man out b/c of what they committed to them. So as much as I want Carcillo to be the guy over Shelley, I see Shelley being the Flyers guy based on the contracts. Now, Carcillo might have a bigger role now, which worries me.
As much as Carcillo drives me nuts, I do like his game (outside of watching him needed to be physically restrained on the bench). I’d rather not see him on the first line, but he can and has worked there (I’m just a fan of the Brian Burke skilled top 6, tough bottom 6 methodology, which the Flyers don’t have anyway). I just think this is another one of those, if you were going to do B all along, why did you need to do A kind of thing.
1.1M is easy $$ to waste for Ed Snider.
If he sits in the Minors and then is eventually traded for a lowly 7th rounder its all good.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That would work for me, but then why has Cote been on this team for so long.
I’m not really as upset with this as I appear. Carcillo isn’t the worst option to have playing on 1 of the top 3 lines, I just wanted the organization going in a different direction, and this is mostly being upset that the Flyers keep on signing so many grit guys.
You as the question that has been a thorn in my side for the past 3 years!
????Cote????????
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhhhhh but Shelly dosent have a wife who is willing to run The Flyers Carnival
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a good point.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 13, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
If only we could get as much as say someone like Upshall and a Second round pick!
But nobody is that stupid
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome. Glad to hear Carbomb will be back next year. Now, what the hell is Holmgren going to do about the salary cap?? If we waive Gagne, and get nothing, Homer should lose his job for painting himself into a corner…almost every year.
5 points for the name.
And yeah, I agree. I think most people on here do as well, it’s a smart move to keep Chico, he’s got a decent upside, but keeping him for longer and more pay just wasn’t feasible… this off season.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 13, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Odd. Very odd.
Well, only 2 and change over the cap at this point, and it only takes the relocation of Gagne or Carter to make that go away…assuming they do it for picks and prospects only.
If I was Simon Gagne, I’d be bloody well annoyed by now.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Assume its done but cant happen until the Kovalchuck is signed
nothing anyone of can do but wait.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Richards likes having Carbomb on his line
Richards admitted he plays better when someone else on his line is willing to bang bodies with him. Otherwise Richie gets too caught up in having to win physical battles to be effective offensively. (See: 2010 Stanley Cup Finals)
ARE YOU KIDDING ME
great Carcillo on the first line, im going to throw up.
Dan Carcillo isnt on the first line of any team that could win a cup.
im going to be sick. no fucking point to gettting Shelley, i was fine with adding an enforcer (which Carcillo wasnt) as long we lost Carcillo.
But BOTH OF THEM?!
so let me get this straight our first line is Richards…. then Carter who isnt used to playing wing… and Carcillo who is a 4th liner…
yeh just great. just fucking wonderful.
so much for having an actual first line.
Fine Richards likes having someone else on the line that can bang bodies, then got someone who has skill as well that can do it. NOT CARCILLO.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
lines aren’t about skill level. lines are about chemistry, thus why you probably won’t see a Carter-Richards-Zherdev line. Zherdev is probably most talented and in fantasy would likely get slotted at the top but Carbomb probably works better with ritchie. Carbomb on 1st line also lets you balance talent out more across lines
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
zherdev should be on the 3rd line with Giroux
balancing talent is one thing, having a 4th liner on your 1st line is just stupidity.
god i hate this right now. worst fear coming true. fuck.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
just because Carcillo works better with Richards is no reason to settle, at least shop Carter and get an actuallly skilled winger. So Carcillo is the only right winger in the NHL that can work with Richards? What the hell is that?
thats no reason to put Carcillo there.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Give Carter a chance to play wing when healthy throughout the season instead of concluding that he can’t do it based on what he did in the finals with a two broken feet. It’s not nearly as hard to transfer from center to wing as vice versa. Briere’s skill set makes him uniquely relegated to the center position, and he struggled on the wing because he didn’t have the puck in his stick enough and often had to catch it while standing still
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Carcillo works well with Richards is a fine reason. A team lacking chemistry is not winning a Stanley Cup anytime soon.
Dan Carcillo played on the 1st line with Mike Richards for a very good part of the season and was perfectly fine. That was not the reason the Flyers were maddingly inconsistent during the regular season.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
JVR – Giroux – Carter
Hartnell – Briere – Leino
Carcillo – Richards – Zherdev
Powe – Betts – Lappy
I’d prefer it if we waived Shelley, but that probably won’t happen
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
yeh those lines arent happening
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus, with a dedicate enforcer in Shelley, it frees up Carbomb to play hockey. Now he does not have to be the guy throwing punches and can focus on things like… Skill. He’s shown flashes of it before, perhaps he can blossom into more than a car wreck on skates.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
Richards doesn't center the 'first' line ...
In the scheme as I see it, Richards either centers the third or the second line – but you have the opportunity to have three balanced lines in skill and ice time. Personally, I think a line of Gagne-Richards-Carcillo makes sense. They played well together last season, and with Gagne’s advancing age and Carcillo’s limited skills, you can reduce the line’s ice time and leave Richie fresher for special teams play.
But the ‘first’ line will either be centered by Briere or Carter (if he’s still here).
Gagne? Gagne who?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
he is a Gagne fan
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll take that as a compliment and say thank you. Sarcasm works for me now. My head is too swollen from hitting the wall with my head. I had to stop with it.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Was meant as one. I AM assuming it was sarcasm, given your avowed love for Gagne. Don’t hold your breath – or bang your head on the wall – I definitely think Gagne will stay.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
That’s what I’m thinking. If carter gets shipped out our lines should look like:
Gagne – Richards – Carcillo
Hartnell – Briere – Leino
JVR – Giroux – Zherdev
Shelley – Betts – Lappy
with Powe as the 13th Forward
We’ll see who gets traded. Damn it Kovy just sign already!!
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 13, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually I’m leery of pairing Zherdev with JVR – that’ll leave G as the only forward with any defensive mindset at all on the line. But you could certainly see a healthy Gagne with Richards and Zherdev being a force on the ice. That would drop Carcillo to play with G and JVR … hmm. Not that bad, maybe – although it may mean reduced 5-on-5 ice time for G. I dunno; I don’t know enough about Zherdev’s playing style to really figure it out.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
I don’t know much about him either except that he’s a sniper and not that defensively responsible. I was just pairing them up because I think that he would bury a lot of Giroux’s passes and I think those two will be a great combo for scoring, as well as JVR. Who knows, maybe JVR will work on his defense this offseason, and that line will be better defensively.
Although this is all speculation until we get to training camp with our roster completed, then we can debate who is on what line and see how they work out, then October will be here before we know it.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 13, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
True dat. I’ll be the first to admit that the line combos that worked best last season were not the ones I proposed pre-season here. But it’s still fun!
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
It’s definitely fun! We go from armchair GM’ing to armchair coaching for the season. Plus it’s fun to try the line combos in NHL 10.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 13, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I assuming waiving Cote is just a formality at this point. Then they need to resign Powe. Theyd still be about 2 mil over at that point so trading or waiving (if it comes to that, its apparent Holmgren never had a plan coming into the offseason) Gagne is really the only feasible solution
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT reply actions
Doubt they actually have to waive either Gagne or Carter – they’ll be able to get something in return for them, even if it is just picks. But I bet it’s picks and prospects. Those guys are good.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Carcillo can actually play hockey when he wants to. I don’t think Shelley takes his role. Shelley is a 4th liner no matter what, but Carcillo can move throughout the lineup.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Obviously he can move throughout the line up, unlike Shelley. But whichever of the top 3 lines you put him on immediately becomes the 3rd line checking line. So the question becomes, who do you put with him. Or do you just roll him around constantly based on who is hot, putting the hot player on the top scoring line?
could move giroux up there on rw and put carter back at center on third line with jvr and zherdev…i just can’t see zherdev and richards on the same line.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Nor could I…who knows really. I think this is my problem. I still have no idea where the Flyers plan on playing Carter and Giroux. And then from there, where do you put Carcillo. Still a lot of questions, so it’s hard for me to imagine this right now.
I have a feeling that Briere is going to play wing. Carter will center Hartnell and Leino.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Jul 13, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he will be misused there. Then again, Carter is misused on the wing as well. Too many centers.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I wouldn’t say his line is automatically a 3rd line. Carter/Richards/Carcillo may not be ideal, but it’s better than a 3rd line.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
And a ’third line" of Gagne-Richards-Carcillo … sounds BAD to you????
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
Well, I can’t speculate on the minutes they’ll play, so I won’t touch that. But I’m frustrated that this team constantly is between having 3 true scoring lines, or 2 top scoring lines and 2 tough aggressive defensive lines. So in that respect yes it does. B/c you are wasting the offensive abilities of 2 of the 3 members of that line in certain respects.
2010-11 PHILADELPHIA FLYERS
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Jeff Carter ($5.000m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Daniel Carcillo ($1.075m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Ville Leino ($0.800m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($0.822m) / Nikolai Zherdev ($2.000m)
Ian Laperriere ($1.167m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / * Darroll Powe ($0.700m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.438m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Sean O\’Donnell ($1.300m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
- Marty Turco ($2.500m) / Michael Leighton ($1.550m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 22; CAP:$59.4m; PAYROLL: $59.310m; CAP ROOM: $1.028m; BONUSES: $0.938m
Ok here’s my scenario. trade gagne for picks, resign powe, waive cote and boosh. under the cap with an upgrade in goal (I’m overpaying Turco in this scenario, giving him the rumored 2.5 million he wants)
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
could dress depending on the day. i’d rather stash shelley in the minors and bring up legein, kalinski, or nodl
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
And even if you did that you are really only saving 300K. The extra 300K at that point isn’t the worth thing to occasionally dress a fighter assuming you play Powe the majority of the time.
well i’d rather we didn’t sign shelley at all but he’s here and we have to deal with that bonehead move. if powe is resigned then shelley is odd man out
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I didn’t want him here either, but since he is, i was just pointing out that having him over Nodl (who is my favorite player by the way) is only costing you an extra $300K. So having 2 Powe like players on the roster, doesn’t serve any purpose. So I’m favoring your choice to have Shelley scratched most nights versus having Nodl here.
yeah i’d rather shelley sit and do nothing than nodl. nodl can play on phantoms and develop some more and get called up as needed
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
we’re not giving 1.1 million to shelley to sit. Which is why bringing back Carcillo is dumb.
If you’re gonna pay Shelley 1.1 million you better play him.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
How do they calculate the cap room? It woud only be $.028 in that scenario. . . . . . . unless my math ain’t so good 59.4-59.310
by SkookFlyerfan on Jul 13, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Bonus cushion.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
I see. I though that counted against the cap.
by SkookFlyerfan on Jul 13, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
It does count against the cap, until unearnable. But Capgeek then adds it back in to your available cap room, on the theory that it might not have to be paid.
That’s how your can have 59.4 in total cap, 59.3 in payroll (including potential bonuses) and $1M in cap space.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
oh and i likely think that if the Flyers do sign Turco, the deal would be closer to 2 million and not 2.5 million but was trying to upgrade and goal and think of the max of the deal
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
bleedorange, you seriously need to get off the Chico mouth-foaming hate train. It’s getting old.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 13, 2010 3:18 PM EDT reply actions
my bad you dont mind having a 4th liner on the 1st line and guy who will agitate opposing teams in the playoffs into playing better against us.
id be fine okay with carcillo coming back if we didnt already get shelley who can actually enforce.
what a fucking waste this is.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
carcillo> shelley… shelley is the waste
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
shelley can enforce, carcillo cant
everyone says carcillo has skill, im still waiting to see where this supposed skill is.
and i love how the excuse for carcillo is, he can play skilled hockey when he wants to, WHEN HE WANTS TO.
ugh.
hey if holmgren hadnt already signed shelley then i wouldnt be as pissed about this. but we obviously signed shelley and are going to use him for what he paid for him. so now why did we sign carcillo?
homer’s an idiot.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
carcillo has some skill … very raw and very untapped … but at this point I am not sure it will be coming out.
so apparently carcillo is an 18 year old rookie coming into the league
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Carcillo has an offensive upside. Playing with better players shows that. I’m not saying we have the next Gretzky here, But he’s started to get a nose for the net. Shelley may be a great guy, but he’s an enforcer. Period. I would have preferred Carcillo on the 3rd line with JVR and Giroux. Not the Richards line.
I’m not sure what Homer is doing though. I have a guess, but that means I have to watch to see if Clarke’s lips move when Homer speaks during press conferences.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Jul 13, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
correction
Shelly is the useless bile among the waste
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
sums up my feelings on carcillo.
an enforcer who cant enforce, who has hidden skill that i never see. that about sums it up.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you are a just an idiot. Carcillo draws a ton of penalties, doesn’t take too many minor penalties, is loved by his teammates and can score a dozen goals a year. Why on Earth would you want a guy like that on your team?
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Trust me, I’ve tried. bleedorangewhiteblack just does not get it. Which tells me that he/she is either blind in his/her hatred of Carcillo or he/she just has a complete lack of knowledge about Carcillo and/or hockey.
Now if he/she want to argue Carcillo’s contract (though in a vaccum it is not a killer contract), feel Homer has too many tougher guys to have 3 scoring lines, etc, that is one thing, but to suggest that Carcillo as a player is useless is just dumb.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
slightly OT but speaking of trades
What ever happened to Ryan Dingle?
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
Well he was on the phantoms last year. He had 5 goals
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
For what it's worth
Follow up to previous post.
Yes, I know Gagne is gone. I don’t have to like it, especially if there are better options. I’m assuming Carter is “untouchable” (sigh).
My preference: Trading Meszaros to NYI for a pick (or even “future considerations”; see earlier post for rationale): Everyone is signed including Powe at $700K. 23 players including 2 goalies, 14 forwards, 7 D-men (if you include someone like Bourdon or Syrvet as 7th d-man, assumes Cote is waived). $600K in cap space (with the more-expensive Bourdon). Turco a possibility if he is low-balled and Boosh (or Leighton) is waived.
FORWARDS
Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Simon Gagne ($5.250m)/Jeff Carter ($5.000m)
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Ville Leino ($0.800m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) /Nikolai Zherdev ($2.000m) Claude Giroux ($0.822m)
Ian Laperriere ($1.167m) Darroll Powe ($0.700m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m)
Daniel Carcillo ($1.075m) / // Jody Shelley ($1.100m)*
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Matt Carle ($3.438m) / Braydon Coburn ($3.200m)
Sean O’Donnell ($1.300m) /Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
Marc-Andre Bourdon ($0.875m)
GOALTENDERS
Michael Leighton ($1.550m) / Brian Boucher ($0.925m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 23; CAP: $59.4m; PAYROLL: $59.860m; BONUSES: $1.100m; CAP ROOM: $0.640m
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
Note: the reason for this specific trade is that NYI is $28 Million under the cap (even including Yashin’s buyout!) and they can’t be more than $16 million (plus bonuses) and already have 20 players under contract. Snow is in exactly the reverse situation from Homer, but that’s why Snow tried to get Kovie.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
not as awesome as watching the Hawks go through caphell or imagine the cap hell in nj if they sign kovalchoke
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t it funny…? Two weeks ago, when I posted a link to the tweet that indicated a possible Gagne trade everyone was like “Oh, no way is this happening! Trading Gagne? NEVER!”. Nobody thought about it. Nobody thought this would be an option for the Flyers. Yet, 15 days later, here we are and all I see is comments like “waive Gagne”, “trade Gagne” or “move Gagne” flying around, being thrown here as if it was no big deal… It’s funny. So funny that it makes me cry…
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
we dont have a choice since homer is hell bent on adding fourth liners and keeping BOTH CARCILLO AND SHELLEY than adding 1st liners.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh of course there are other choices and options…
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
such as…
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
See above.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
bingo, i think gagne is la bound regardless of if kovie signs or doesn’t but if he doesn’t we might get a better return such as a Bernier/ Quick
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
well … my stance how changed to:
"Oh no way! Is this happening? Trading Gagne? never …. (cries at the inevitable)"
It is terrible but its something we now have to accept is an inevitability unless Homer does something we actually want him to do (trading Mesjaros, waiving Shelley)
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont necessarily have to like it to accept it.
Its about to happen so talking about what can happen next is better than denying the fact and just complaining
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I still argue that moving Carter makes far more sense … but I can argue that ad nauseum and no one will seem to get it. Gagne will take a pay cut next season – Carter will want a fat raise. With keeping Carter, you end up not being able to sign Giroux or Leino or Zherdev (if he proves valuable) OR the new goalie everyone keeps screaming about here, unless you lose Carter to free agency and gain NOTHING but his services for one season because they won’t have the budget to even make the qualifying offer. It’s MATH people, and pretty damn simple at that.
The team has a buttload of centers, and not enough wingers – so WHY WOULD YOU TRADE A WINGER TO KEEP A CENTER WHO WILL BUST YOUR CAP NEXT YEAR???
Yes and theres a great fanpost discussion about this going on right here
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m pretty sure Zherdev will probably match gagne’s goal total from last year.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
With a Plus/Minus of -5
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 13, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
So high? Only if he’s paired with someone to cover his ass will ONLY be -5.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
Its funny that you say that because I originally put -10 but decided to be lenient. Glad you corrected it though . . .
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 13, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If we wave Gagne, he ends up in Edmonton
Gagne really dose not want that so he will waive his NTC and we will get something in return.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Boyle…Boyle…Boyle … ding,ding … does it ring the bell?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
At least Homer is waiting on the Kings (allegedly Gagnes 1st choice)
If that dosnt happen then we get into the Boyle similarities
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bolts also gave Boyle some time to negotiate something he’d like. They waited for some time. Then Boyle picked San Jose. But why? Only because he had to.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
The cap is making business tough on the players, and the fans
Players are going to want NMC rather than NTCs
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
You're Right
NTCs are worthless. You are pressured to waive the clause because if you don’t you will be placed on waivers and wait out the 24-48 hours that you’ll have until ANY team picks you up. And if not, you’re down in the minors. At least that’s my understanding.
NTC’s are not worth the paper they’re written on.
Not with the players raising their salaries and the owners wanting a low cap
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The big question remains: how will Carcillo and Shelley, two guys who fit a similar mold, fit into this Flyers lineup? They are not similar in anyway. One is an agitator at best with moderate at best skills and the other is nothing more then a stone cold heavyweight fighter. Both are needed on a team but truly I would not have cried over losing Carcillo. Hope can become more then just a penalty getting liability when he isn’t diving trying to draw penalties which no one is going to give him the benefit of the doubt for any longer. Really starting to spell the end of Gagne and locking down the starter is now for sure Leighton.
Just Call Me "M"!
thank you. and you were being quite kind describing Carcillo with moderate skills.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. So we go from having Cap room and flexibility to improve the team’s weak areas (goalie, 5th d, 3rd line forward) 13 days ago to having Leighton as the starter AND having to waive the longest tenured Flyer and one of the most underrated two-way players in the league in Simon Gagne. Why?
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
$4 million 5th defensemen, jumping the gun on leighton, throwing 1.1 million at shelley
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
And/or the redundancy of having Coburn AND Meszaros on this team. Also: RILEY COTE IS STILL A FLYER.
Ha, I meant that more of a question to Holmgren but yeah, that is what happened
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
b/c homer likes having FOUR 4th liners on offense. and paying 5th defenseman 4 mil a year and should be back up goalies 1.55 million a year.
i
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to clarify what I wrote, they fit a similar mold, not that they’re the same player. They both play bottom six forward type roles, and they’re both players that are similarly expendable. Carcillo has tools (so does Blair Betts) but at the end of the day, he’s essentially another fourth liner.
Visit the BSH Store :: Get us on Twitter :: facebook, too!
Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
by Travis Hughes on Jul 13, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If they move gags or carter and try to sign a goalie there would be roughly 4 million in cap space (waived boucher and cote). If they signed turco its for 2-3 million I would think and yeah they would bring back powe. But…
If they dont get a goalie then there is about 3 million cap space (waived cote). I dont think they go with powe and they upgrade at wing.
Maxim Afinogenov he is russian oh right zherdev could use a buddy…
i think they are done adding wingers (unless they get one back in gagne trade) and the sign Turco for 2-2.5 million is more likely.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
or could move giroux to 1st line as giroux is a RW and then move carter back to center
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i was thinking more in terms of carter as center on 3rd line with jvr and someone
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
People need to stop comparing Dan Carcillo and Jody Shelley
They are different players who play different rolls with different strengths and weaknesses.
Jody Shelley is defensively resonsible. Dan Carcillo is not.
Jody Shelley is a damned good fighter. Dan Carcillo is barely a fighter.
Jody Shelley polices and enforces. Dan Carcillo agitates and draws penalties.
Jody Shelley only scores goals in final regular season games against the Flyers. Dan Carcillo can be good for 10 goals a year in addition to a similar amount of assists.
Jody Shelley is, for better or worse, currently being viewed by the Flyers as Asham’s replacement. Dan Carcillo offers Mike Richards a physical winger that Richie prefers to play with.
Jody Shelley is a locker room presence and leader. Dan Carcillo….uh….well, Carbomb has a nice porn stache.
While Homer’s handling of their contracts (perhaps more specifically Shelley’s) is a totally different story and argument, when talking about Shelley and Carcillo, these are 2 different players who, if used properly and to their greatest strengths, will have 2 different roles on the team that should rarely intersect with each other. This is not the same player we are talking about, and I feel that both can have a role and fit in well with this team.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
by Justin F. on Jul 13, 2010 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
if Dan Carcillo is the believed to be the only physical first line winger that can play with Richards then we’ve got serious problems on our hands.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, alot of it comes down to not wanting to break up the Briere line. Obviously Hartnell could potentially fill that role but he needs to stay where he is
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
it all comes down to Homer making the wrong moves.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously, but with the team as it is now I don’t think the Richards line should be considered the 1st line
by mantis toboggan on Jul 13, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
if Richards and Carter are on the same line, thats the first line
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Zerdhev will not be playing Richards. He will be playing with JVR and Giroux.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
and Zerdhev playing with Carter is any better defensively?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank God we have a shitload of good D men!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Carter is a good defensive center.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
And it never should have been. If this team is truly going to contend for anything other than miracles Richards needs to be the third line center with Carcillo and someone that actually has a a little skill, maybe Asham if no one else. Richards will get his points and ice time on the special teams.
Just Call Me "M"!
I merely said that Dan Carcillo gives Richards a physical winger he likes to have, not that he is the only person alive who can fit that role.
The fact of the matter is we have Carcillo on our team for this year and he is likely going to be paired with Mike Richards. Now whether that line with considered the 1st line, the 2nd line, or the 3rd line is something to be decided down the road, but instead of constantly berating the decision to place him on the 1st line, let’s look at what he brings to the table in comparison to a player people keep saying is a lot like him (though he really is not) in Jody Shelley. And that was my point.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
Carcillo was defensively responsible when he was playing with Lappy and Betts. It’s only when he had to stretch his limited ability to offense on the first line that his defense suffered.
which is EXACTLY why he shouldnt play first line
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
They made him look defensively responsible
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He did fine. To say he wasn’t defensively responsible means he was a liability, which he wasn’t.
Still, Powe is a better fit on that line.
agreed, and thats why Carcillo should have been waived.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, they are two different players. But I also felt that the team could have done without one or the other (see my response to you above).
My biggest problem is we keep wanting to convince ourselves the Flyers have 3 scoring lines, but continually fill them with psuedo tough guys or pest/agitators that can pot the occasional goal. If the Flyers were playing the Burke style 2 scoring and 2 tough and defensive lines, then I think I’d feel differently about this. But we continually have almost 3 legit scoring lines, and I would just like to see either a change of philosophy, or actually trying to build 3 legit scoring lines. This is not to say it’s impossible for Carcillo to develop more of a scoring touch, but it’s not like he was a rookie last year, that is about what i would expect out of him for a season, maybe 15 at best.
I don’t see us bringing back Powe Gagne will yield a winger in return either in the trade or with some of the cap money freed up that will play on the 1st or 3rd line. Powe or Carcillo will not be with this team at the start of the year. And Shelly isn’t going to play every game. He is going to be the scratched guy with is enormous 1.1 million dollar contract holy crap look out. 1/60th of the cap in sitting the bench I rather have Shelly on the bench at 1.1 million then Tim Thomas at 5 million.
gagne will not yield a winger in return. flyers likely aren’t looking at get a winger back and will probably resign powe in return. it’s gagne for a goalie or picks. if gagne goes for picks, look for them to sign a goalie
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I know the Shelley being a potential scratch at $1.1mil is a shot at me. But you keep on talking about this being a cap world. Well Chris, in a cap world, you have to analyze how well you spend your money. And Shelley was not a good use of money. I have no idea why you are even bringing up Thomas here. Obviously it be worse having a $5mil back up goalie, but that isn’t the Fyers problem. This is the last time I’ll discuss Shelley’s contract with you, so feel free to take a parting shot if you’d like.
it makes sense though, carbomb fits the asham role fairly well… need more goals out of him and less bs avery type drama sessions
asham’s role is eliminated. Asham’s role wasnt on the first line which is where Carcillo will be.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s going to happen. and apparenlty people here dont have a problem with it. which is beyond me
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
doubt we have no room for wingers at this point, after signing danny carbomb. even if we clear gags contract. and if we do, then that means Leighton as a starter, shudder.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
if we waive boosh and cote then we still have cap space to sign a goalie or maybe we get a goalie back in a gagne to la trade
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
What about Powe?
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
for god knows what reason, Carcillo is more important to this team than Powe, even though Powe has speed and can penalty kill.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Powe is one of the best bang for his buck players we have on this team.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
and not because he was a walk on either!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
if we get Quick or Bernier, it’s going to take more than Gagne, have to sack either Coburn or (shudder) Carle as well in that deal. and then our defense doesnt look so much upgraded with O’donnell as our 5th defensemen.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Not true. I have done multiple capgeeks on this.
You have to waive Leighton (not Boosh) as well as Shelley, Cote and Bartulis and then you can’t sign Powe. And you can’t sign Turco.
Run the numbers.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
no we have to move him because we need room for a fighter and an agitator, makes sense right?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
i was exaggerationg to make a point.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
i see but your point is flawed. this shouldn’t be pinned on just the shelley and carcillo signings. theyre just easier to poke at b/c they are the most recent. i had already considered carcillo a lost cause but at $1m, i’ll gladly have him back if not just to see him sucker punch matt bradley again.
Add the 5th defender then
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Carbomb was on the 1st line for a good part of last year and there was never a huge outcry about it then. Besides, Carcillo does not get the minutes that Richards gets anyway.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
because we couldnt do anythign about it during the season.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Trying to understand Homer
Makes me head hurt.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
it’s easy
4th liners > 1st liners
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Just don’t use your brain. Should help. That’s how Homer does it.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
no matter how you slice it, considering what moves we already made and where we stood, signing Carcillo is a waste of money.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, cause the last thing we need is a fast skate who can keep up with our top 2 players, assist and score, fight with the best of them, and agitate the fuck out of the opposition.
Seriously, did Chico fuck your sister or something?
Shelly = Hatcher.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 13, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
“Yeah, cause the last thing we need is a fast skate who can keep up with our top 2 players, assist and score, fight with the best of them, and agitate the fuck out of the opposition”
ahahahahahahah, is Chico fucking you? thats what you think of him, how high are you when you watch flyers games?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
agitate the fuck out of the opposition.
would be the only thing true of what you said. and that’s not even a great thing.
how many Carcillo jerseys do you own? is it a wall of Carcillo jerseys?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
your right you dont judying by what you said of Carcillo and the fact that you had to go out of your way to find a picture for a discussion forum for an argument your losing terribly at
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I am about to pull a reverse MarioD
is a fast skate who can keep up with our top 2 players
He kept up just fine with Richards and Gagne last year.
assist and score12 goals, 10 assists in 76 games last year, which for a forward whose main role is neither scoring/assisting nor defensive forward is not too shabby. Colton Orr (4G, 2A), Derek Boogaard (0G, 4A), Georges Laraque (1G, 2A) don’t come close. Granted there are some who do (Avery, Cooke), but to suggest that Carcillo can’t score or get assists is completely false and shows a complete lack of knowledge of the player when you compare that to some players who fit similar molds as Carcillo and thus note that Carcillo is one of the better scorers of that group.
fight with the best of themI don’t love the guy’s fighting skills, but he is not afraid to drop gloves with anyone, that is for sure.
agitate the fuck out of the oppositionCarcillo was one of the league leaders in drawn penalties last year.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
what ever happened to MarioD? Did he change his name to bleedorangewhiteandblack and channel his JVR aggression towards carcillo?
"Call me dumb, call me stupid, whatever. I block shots."
by boknows71 on Jul 13, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The guy knew his hockey
As many flame wars as there were, there were also those awesome screen captures where he went through plays (to blame JVR, but anyway). He increased my hockey knowledge a lot. It’s a shame to see him banned for being stubborn to his views. But I don’t make the decisions I guess.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It was not just his stubborness, though, it was also his attacking people making rational points during discussions. There is a conversation about him in the Fly By that was posted this morning.
Now before I am accused of being the pot that called the kettle black in regards to my conversations with bleedorangewhiteblack in this thread, I only started the nastiness after he/she kept posting the same thing with the same general point over and over and over again that made no sense, which after a while, I began to view as trolling.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
Well I hope someone else steps up and breaks down the plays like he did during the regular season. As far as I know, we are one of the few blogs that had that sort of detail and knowledge in the comments, and it was great to have that.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
From my outside (I’m an outsider right?) perspective, you guys have plenty of regulars that know their hockey. You don’t need him to have intelligent conversations and his attitude often detracted from the intelligence of the conversation. Lots of people know hockey, it’s not an excuse to be a total dick.
And there is nothing more annoying than trying to talk to someone that can’t admit they are wrong and continues to move the goal posts to try to make Randy Jones look better than… anyone.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
From my outside (I’m an outsider right?) perspective, you guys have plenty of regulars that know their hockey
Shucks, I try my best. Oh you meant someone else.
I’m with PoL though, who will give us JVR breakdowns!!!!
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Haha. Maybe when you play the Caps. I’ve done a couple on Japers’ Rink and those things take a lot more time to do than I had anticipated.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
A big part of the problem is finding adequate video if you want to do anything in depth. Someone over at Japers’ Rink was able to pull any random clip for me so that made it a whole lot easier.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
I dabbled in them (mostly in my blackedout rage) and could never bring myself to actually typing in them. It’s enough work doing the screen grabs and the conversion and the uploading and the explaining.
And it’s certainly not worth it to just show “Look, he’s standing around!” and therefore responsible for the goal that was scored by a guy all alone 65 feet away.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 13, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
A banned person can read the posts they just cant reply to them.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Mario, we’re having a get-together and handing out free “JVR Sucks!” T-shirts. This saturday night, at 15th and Indiana in north philly at around 1am. We’ll all be dressed as shady looking characters. Just run up to us…
by Vansteel on Jul 13, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, cause the last thing we need is a fast skate who can keep up with our top 2 players, assist and score, fight with the best of them, and agitate the fuck out of the opposition
LOOK AT THIS STATEMENT ABOUT CARCILLO
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.
I CANT STOP LAUGHING
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 13, 2010 4:12 PM EDT reply actions
It’s a comparative statement, I think. Compared to Shelley, Carcillo CAN score, CAN skate, and CAN agitate … although I admit the fighting bit is lost somewhat.
Still, I feel Carcillo is far and away more valuable to the team than Shelley – fighting isn’t necessarily about winning; it’s about making a point and standing up for your teammates. Carbomb can do that much.
Now, if your argument is that Carter/Gagne is more valuable – of course that’s true. But I actually wondered why it took so long to sign Carcillo; I’d have done it some time ago for that salary.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
Exactly. It was fun watching Brashear beat the fuck out of people on occasion, but that’s all he really did. Skate slow, check hard, and smash fists. There was no energy there. I feel the same way about Shelley so far. Might be a great guy in the lockeroom, but we’ve never had a shortage of that. In fact, we’ve had too much, Kimmo, Pronger, Ritchie stand out now, and if they weren’t there, Lappy, Betts and Boosh would as well.
Taken into account how strong of a lockeroom we have, Shelley adds only the bigger chance to win a fight. Whether or not that pumps the team and crowd up as much as Chico flailing madly at some chump is doubtful.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 13, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Will you please stop?
It’s really, really annoying.
I love the Flyers so much I even went to Bobby Clarke Day Camp.
by billy_pilgrim on Jul 13, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can we stop doing hypothetical line pairings until we figure out the Gagne situation? Right now, they are pretty pointless.
I agree, and need to take that piece of advice b/c that’s where my head starts spinning. trying to figure out where everyone goes. Heck even if Gagne goes, we still have no clue where people will play b/c we have no idea if the organization wants to play Carter at wing or center.
it hasn’t been said much but briere’s trade value has got to be as high as ever after his playoff performance. i know his contract is virtually untradeable but is there any chance buffalo might want him back? i’m just trying to think if it’s possible to keep carter AND gagne and i also don’t think danny boy will play to his contract’s potential.
NMC—he’d have to waive it, and he sure as hell wouldn’t waive it to go back to Buffalo. He wants a contender, which is why he came to Philly in the first place, don’t you think? He turned down his hometown team that was offering him more money, for the love of Pete Laviolette.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
hard to believe they would’ve paid him more money. i forgot about the NMC. i guess i should stick to the: if your name isn’t carter you have a nmc/ntc.
I think there was also an element of not wanting to play there because the spotlight on players there is pretty harsh and he would have been “the man” so to speak up there; I think the surrounding players/media made Philly a more attractive destination, if you can actually believe that.
Montreal really likes having it’s good French Canadian players back in the fold, but most don’t want to play there. It’s time they ask themselves why not.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I can’t figure it out. I was actually fine with letting him walk, truth be told. I like him, but not enough to put the team in capacolypse.
There had better be some blockbuster trade that REALLY benefits this team coming.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
gagne for quick/ bernier ….crosses fingers
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
One can only hope. Personally, I think Homer will only manage draft picks for Gagne. If we trade Carter to LA instead, I think we may be able to swindle one of their goalies out of the deal, but even though I would love one of these young goalies, I am not sure if I would get my hopes up, especially if it is Gagne that gets traded.
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
i know there’s talk that they want to trade us justin williams for gagne and to that i’d say screw that. Justin Williams is more fragile than gagne and doesn’t help our roster whatsoever
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
but would be a terrible trade and would basically be trading one bad contract for another bad contract with a smaller cap hit. not going to happen.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
All I can think is that Homer has something up his sleeve, which we’re going to hear about tomorrow.
He HAS to have something brewing.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
it’s already been over a week since we heard gagne might be traded. we are stuck waiting until Kovalchoke signs somewhere
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope he does have something brewing…. but until Kovy signs I don’t think he’ll do something. I was expecting to hear something last week about who may get traded… the waiting game sucks.
I think he can get some good value for Carter or Gagne (he should trade Carter though, works in the long run) even though we are over the cap. If Chicago could get some good stuff for Buff when everybody knew they were over the cap, we can too.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 13, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i think we can swindle LA out of bernier or quick for gagne if they fail to sign kovie
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
HOLY C(R)AP!
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Haha, nice pun. Glad to see you are in some better spirits. ;-)
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
Thanks ;) Well, what can you do? Even though I don’t see any positives in Gags being moved what-so-ever I can’t sulk forever. Though… when the trade is made I’m sure I’ll be crushed again :(
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
I think the Flyers would be much better off tradingg Carter before Gagne as well, but apparently the organization sees something in Carter that they want to keep him so bad.
I am sure it will be sad for everyone, especially if the Flyers don’t get a very good deal for Gagne (which given the situation, I sadly expect will happen)
Chris Pronger stole my last signature.
I see the trade being atrocious. Just like the rest of the moves Homer made so far.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Homer has made good moves this offseason, made bad ones as well but you are being alarmist and irrational right now. O’Donnell, Zherdev and Carcillo were all good signings.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
BOO!
Worst signing of the year! The trade that brought him here ruined the team chemistry going into the playoffs that year. For anyone who says he has untapped potential should use that same argument for Leighton. He actually had great numbers compared to any other goalie, while only playing part of the year.
He is so bad that they couldn’t play him anymore in the SCF becuase he was an easy PP anytime the Hawks saw him on the ice. If they wanted a physical guy that can score a few goals with Richards, Asham would have been cheaper without the terrible penalties.
In the SCF both 1st lines didn’t do much scoring, it was more important for them to help shut down the other guys across from them.
All of these line combinations are a mute point, with as brittle as this team is Homer is counting on Mr. bad penalty to take out Brierre and Hartnell in camp (like he did Carter) stash them on LTI (they did nothing last regular season except kill the cap by cashing their huge checks anyway) and then there will be enough room to bring back Asham & Powe.
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jul 13, 2010 4:45 PM EDT reply actions
That has to be a pain in the ass to type in every time.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun question now. What # does Zherdev take now that Carbomb is back? Does Carbomb get first dibs on 13 b/c he was here first?
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
you know what would piss ppl off. if once gagne is gone, one of them takes #12
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i would hope the dawkins rule would go into effect but rodthebod and preems didn’t get special treatment and gags prob won’t either
Gagne came up through the Flyers system and has been here longer than both of them; I see this as being very different.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
sorry i beat you to the dawk comment. throw preems out, that’s just a personal exception as he represents flyers hockey at its finest imo. as far a rod the bod and gags are concerned, i would say they meant just as much to their flyer teams, just in different decades. fitting that they have been my two favorites over those two decades.
If the Flyers have any sense, and I suspect they do, there will be a moratorium on that number for quite a while. No one took Dawk’s number on the Eagles.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I think I just threw up in my mouth… and not a little bit… A LOT!
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Yeah I know. Pretty much like this off-season so far.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
I’m pretty patient with this stuff generally, but not this year.
When the team came back from the 2006-07 debacle, I thought “Cool! They’re building the team to be like the 1980s Flyers – Deep in scoring, and full of versatile players who can fill many roles if need be.”
Now, much like the 1980s Flyers, the talent level is going down (especially up front) and the toughness is going up. This led to 5 straight seasons missing the playoffs from 1990-94. I hope this team does not follow suit.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
So when’s the next Next One coming through?
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Tim Kerr, Gagne...carcillo
One of these things is doing his own thing, one of these thing is not the same
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually 2 of them aren’t. One match has a red end, one has neither a red nor blue end, just bare wood.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s actually four of those upside down matches…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 13, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I count as manny as 6 upside down matches
The other SFW photo option includes penguin’s or groups of 3 similar objects and one oddball.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but one of them looks to me like it is right side up, and the colored cap just fell off….
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It certainly sticks out. And to be honest, I didn’t even notice until I read your comment. So, kudos.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 13, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Savvy businessman Snyder would make Zherdev 13, that way everyone has to buy a new jersey
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Everytime something new happens (Zherdev signed, now Carcillo signed), I can’t help but feel helpless at what this does to our cap situation. Homer has made trading someone inevitable. Sort of like the doom music that starts Beethoven’s Fifth. Besides, I think it has to have an effect on the whole team. Here, they’ve just gone through this incredible history-making season, and they’re being dismantled. If Gagne can go — who’s next? Who isn’t vulnerable? Maybe Timmo will start worrying. Maybe the players won’t throw themselves headlong into play with all their hearts the same way, if they are just chess pieces when all is said and done.
Frankly, with Meszaros on the roster, maybe Kimmo and his $6.3 million cap hit are expendable … you may now start the bashing.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
“Meszaros makes Kimmo expendable” is the stupidest thing I’ve heard since “The Flyers sign Jody Shelley to a 3 year deal.”
How’s that?
meszaros might make carle or coburn expendable but not kimo
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
the internet is for over-reacting
Do you seriously think this is the time to panic or even try to propose lineups. Gagne is going to be traded until we know what for and how that money we spent is freed up you are wasting your time getting mad. If Gagne gets traded for Simmons for example. You have
Carter-Richards-Zerdev
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-Simmons
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy
Shelly
if Gagne is waive and we sign Ponikovorsky for example same think a much better team with 3 true scoring lines. Plus most likely Marty Turco as the goalies.
If you think we are going to enter the season with 2-3 million in available cap space you are crazy we are going to spend to the cap every year. Nothing is clear until Gagne is moved Gagne won’t get moved until Kovy makes up his mind. If Kovy goes to Russia Gagne is one hell of a trade asset.
i doubt we ask for Simmonds in a trade. We’ll probably ask for a goalie in return, which we might get if kovie doesn’t sign with LA. If Kovie bolts for russia, we most certainly will get a better return for gagne.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
LAK is really going to up against it in two years if they sign Kovy for big money and have Dougherty Johnson and Simmons hit RFA at the same time. That bad cap situation could be avoided by moving Simmons for Gagne.
Gagne is better than Simmonds right now and if Simmons can’t be part of there team in the future replacing with a better player for the short term is not a bad idea. He would be a 3rd line guy on right now behind Brown and Williams (when healthy). We would be okay with replacing injury prone Gagne with a more injury prone Justin Williams I am to high on that Idea but that is another option.
I would argue that Gagne is better the Simmonds. They are more equal then one being better then another. So I doubt that LA would trade a younger guy for an older guy that would most likely bring the same results. Plus, Gagne is more injury prone, and Simmonds is to LA fans as what Giroux is to us. Think of it like this, what would you do if we traded Giroux straight up for Ryan Smith. Thats basically what your asking for.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
If we signed Kovy I could easily forget trading SImmons as a LAK fan. I think Bernier is more of their Giroux. I also would be really pissed if I lost him for nothing in 2 years.
Hi all, Kings fan here…
I just wanted to say, in regards to Quick and Bernier, it does not seem likely to me that they would move either of them at this point. Both of them are good — but neither are worth betting the farm on at this point. I don’t see why we’d move a young, cheap goalie for only one guaranteed year of Gagne when the question of who our #1 will be isn’t fully settled. And Bernier is a guy in whom they’ve invested quite a lot.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
My only counter to this is, if one of them does fail, you’ve lost any return on moving either. Unless you go the Montreal route and trade away your capable goalie.
If I were a Kings fan, I’d be hoping we keep them both until at least the deadline. Re-evaluate your priorities then, depending on how the team looks. I’m not guaranteeing that’s how your management is looking at it, though.
If Bernier fails, I bet he’ll get more time. If Quick fails, well, that didn’t cost us much — and he is hardly the only asset we have to trade. If both succeed, all the better.
I’m not guaranteeing that’s how your management is looking at it, though.
Well, I’ve read a lot of interviews, if that helps. I would be shocked if either were traded now, less so at the end of next season. Currently, I’ve never seen anything but a reluctance to part with either of them.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Well, there is the storied special relationship we have with you already, if that helps…sometimes we call them “Flyers West.” ;) Other than that, they’re a fun young group to watch. Not speedy like Chicago, but disciplined and tough.
I root for the Flyers just based on Lappy alone! Love that guy.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Did you run playing wing by Carter yet? Cause not only is he not equipped for it, he refuses to play the position.
Just Call Me "M"!
The thing is, you’ll go from a fearsome F corps to one that has Poni and Zherdev. You guys are no doubt going to get more points than last year, but Poni and Zherdev are guaranteed to disappear in the playoffs.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Zherdev guaranteed to disappear in the playoffs? The guy has been to the playoffs once and played 7 games, a little presumptive there. now semin that’s a player that disappears in the playoffs
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not prone to defending Semin, and have skewered him for disappearing in the playoffs, but he’s more reliable than Zherdev. Semin’s just a streaky player and unfortunately for the Caps he hasn’t gotten hot in the last two playoff series (though he had a bad thumb injury against PIT so he gets a bit of a break there). Surely you remember 2008, Semin was very good that series. Even with his horrible 14 game goal-less streak and all of 2 points against the Habs, he’s still almost a point per game guy in the playoffs.
Zherdev has always disappeared under pressure. He was worse than horrible for the Rags, and if you look at his international career he disappeared there too. You can doubt me, and time will tell, but I’ve seen all I need to make my conclusions about Zherdev.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Yes I do think that the team this season was a ‘playoff team’. The only person who had little impact in the playoffs was Carter and, of course, the last defensive pairing. Otherwise:
Gagne – Boston series. nuff said.
Richards – was doing a pretty solid job all round and stepped it up against Montreal
Leino, Briere, Hartnell – don’t need to prove anything there
JVR – you might see him as a disappointment, but there were periods in the playoffs where he really started to become more noticeable than he was in the latter half of the season. Also the way he kept us in game 7 against Boston for the first 30 minutes or so made me excited.
Giroux – again, nothing to prove.
Carcillo – before he got injured he was playing really well against New Jersey
Asham – did well with JVR and Giroux
4th line – were solid all season
Pronger, Timmo – nothing to prove
Carle and Coburn were on and off but generally solid
So what I’m getting at is that none of the players on the team barring Carter disappeared in the playoffs. That includes the younger guys like Leino, Giroux, Carle, Coburn and JVR. Which is a very good thing.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. That’s why I don’t understand why GMPH would bring in guys like Meszaros and Zherdev when he knows it’s going to force out guys that were significant contributors last year. JVR had to have been wearing down. He played all year and rookies generally hit a wall at some point. As much as I hate it, I expect him to take big steps in the next two years. Carter is a tougher one to pin. He was pretty bad in each of the last two playoffs, but did have significant injuries. Even giving him the injury leeway though, how does he not hit an empty net?
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Add onto that that JVR was playing college hockey, with a smaller game load than what many of the CHL + Memorial Cup 18 year olds are used to, and it’s no wonder he hit a wall. At the start of the season he showed ample encouragement though.
Carter was hampered by injury. But when I look at the biggest ‘what if’ History Will Be Made of the Flyers 09-10 campaign, I don’t see how his feet hampered him on that shot that he failed to lift.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 14, 2010 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions
at the end of the season jvr showed ample encouragement as well. he was playing out of his mind in game 7 against boston. that was really encouraging to me anyway.
Yes, I agree. His goal at the end of the first period helped save that game.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 14, 2010 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions
not just the goal either, he was banging bodies, and iirc, he had the most shots on goal out of everyone, and i love that richards gave him credit in his on ice interview after the game.
Agreed. He had a great complete game that night.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 14, 2010 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Now that he’s signed, what do you guys feel about a Chico – Briere- Zherdev line?
Briere can always use someone to pass too, and Chico can keep folks from harassing two of our more pure-skill players, and Zherdev shoots enough for both of them.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 13, 2010 5:17 PM EDT reply actions
Briere better be playing with Hartnell and Leino until it is a dismal failure. I am figuring If Carter stays Zherdev plays with him and JVR. Richards, Giroux and Carcillo. Lappy, Shelly and Betts.
Just Call Me "M"!
so you are putting Carter at center and Giroux back on the wing? Most of us here see Zherdev playing with JVR and Giroux. Giroux (playmaker) + JVR (john leclair) + Zherdev (sniper)=awesome….
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t work any other way and trust me I am the guy that was on the Giroux must play center from the beginning. And I was almost alone in that thinking. I want friggin’ Carter gone. But it is shaping up the way I listed above and I am frustrated as hell. Carter doesn’t want to play wing and quite frankly looks horrible doing it.
Just Call Me "M"!
do we really know Carter won’t play wing and that he can’t play wing? i mean all we saw was carter playing wing on two bad feet against great defense.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t have actual articles but I remeber their actually being talk of him stating as much. It wasn’t his speed that was the problem it is his skills that limit him to center. He doesn’t work down low, he doesn’t have great puck handling skills to come off the wing and quite frankly he is a lazy backchecker.
Just Call Me "M"!
doesn’t lazy backchecking and poor work down low (think defense)…suggest that he is better suited to wing than center. we all groan about carter playing defense and center has more defensive responsibilities than a winger
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
However, flash back a few seasons, and the team referred to Carter as their “shut-down center” against Crosby. He has the skills, he just forgot about them in his pursuit of scoring goals and gaining glory.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
Flash back a few seasons and remember when the fans thought Richards would be a responsible third line center with a bit of offensive upside and a lot of leadership while Carter would be the greatest thing ever to have happened to this team.
Yeah you can tell which one exceeded expectations and which one didn’t.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 14, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
At least that is what I thought. Richards was captain of two World Junior Gold medal teams. They don’t mess around up there in the great white north.
Just Call Me "M"!
Patrice Cormier was also the Captain of Team Canada at World Juniors, and that guy is a waste with elbows.
Just saying, but otherwise, I agree.
Ask Booth who he would be more afraid of? But I get your point. I really just always thought it was Richards who was the better player/prospect then Carter. I even think, yes, they are good friends but you can see an almost sibling rivalry between them. Don’t think for a minute Carter wasn’t chomping at the bit to be on that Olympic squad with or over Richards.
Just Call Me "M"!
i remember when drafted they said richards was more nhl ready and could lead a team
by historywillbemade on Jul 14, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I definitely agree. I have a feeling Carter may have been coddled as he developed where Richards had to earn it more maybe. Not sure if that’s the case or not, but it would explain how I view them acting now (I see Carter as selfish and immature, but that doesn’t mean he is).
Hmm well everyone has opinions I guess but in general I felt Carter was a bit more impressive but didn’t have the likability of Richards. But then again, Richards had 56 points in 41 playoff games with Kitchener while Carter had 2 points and 0 goals in 8 playoff games with the Greyhounds.
But if you’re looking to flash back. There are some interesting reads here
Some excerpts:
Carter reminds me of Messier and Richard of Gilmour. Great job by the scouting department. Hey Bob sign these guys quick.
Carter = Sundin, if we’re lucky.
Richards = looks like Ron Francis, plays like Langkow.
Hey the dudes have been great, I am telling you. Carter is already better then JR. Both guys are not signed. So first that has to happen. Next there has to be a cba in place. That might not happen until 2005. Anyways the flyers brass has to be happy with the way both centers have played.
Jeff Carter has been named a 1st team all star at the WJCs.
Also from elsewhere:
Funny its only a few monthes after the draft and IMO the value of both Carter and Richards have rose. Richards is listed as the 1st line center prediction so does that meaned he may have closed the gap a bit between him and Carter?
As players today, I think that Richards & Carter are nearly equal.
Carter however has better physical gifts. He’s bigger and from all reports, he can skate like the wind.
Carter is clearly more advanced offensively. He’s a better skater and he has a much better shot. He’s not totally out of place as a #1 center right now, though on a quality team he fits in very well in the #2 spot for the time being. Carter is also a decent defensive forward and is a pretty good PK’er.
Richards is a do it all guy. He’s already one of the very best PK’ers in the game. If Hatcher is the defenseman who is responsible for our great PK then Richards is the forward. Richards is also developing his offensive game nicely and is probably a better passer then Carter is. Richards is also the perfect team player and he’ll always stick up for teammates and he throws the body more then Carter does.
I think that Carter is slightly better right now and probably will make the gap a little larger as he continues to progress. He oozes with talent and I think the gap when all is said and done between Carter and Richards in the offensive department will be greater then the gap the other way as far as defensive play and intangibles are concerned. If I had to chose between the two, I’d pick Carter, but again Richards does so many things that the question is a difficult one.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 15, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
They have to start Zherdev with Richards, until they see just how commited he is to playing D. Then they will start with Carter on Giroux’s W. I think they are just about set going into camp with the possibility of bring Powe & or Asham back.
They have proven to be a brittle team recently, Homer probably expects that a LTI for whomever will help them get under the cap.
Everyone is so down on Shelley’s scoring, but as I recall that is not much of a feature of Betts or Lappy either. Not resigning Asham, getting Afinogenov, Satan or Pronger arm twisting Selanne (with the help of the other Finns on the roster) seem much more productive than bring Carcillo back. If anything they should have let him go and when no one else offered him anything, a league minimum 1 year deal seems much smarter cap friendly offensive move.
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jul 14, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
It has been said over and over and over…but Lappy and Betts can kill penalties, and are quite good at it, that’s kind of a huge difference. Killing penalties is far more valuable than punching a guy in the face. Also, I don’t think people here really need Shelley to score, they are more so down on his role not necessarily being needed to get this team to the promise land.
Actually no one should be down on Shelley’s role at all. The Flyers did not have a legitimate fighter, period. For the grind of the season you need one, especially since in your division alone there is Goddard/Rupp(Pitt), Boogaard/Prust(NYR), Clarkson/Peters(NJD) and Jackman/Gilles(NYI). Why is this so hard for people to accept. This is a not living in the 70’s mentality. I would rather not have signed Carcillo and definitely kept Asham. He is just better across the board while filling the same role. This should be met with outrage, not signing Shelley.
Just Call Me "M"!
Agree with Asham, disagree about the fighters. I still think you can dictate who a team dresses and what lines a team plays against you. Make the other team adjust. If you need a punching bag, there is a cheaper option still on the roster to send out there to get punched repeatedly.
We disagree, I’m not going to convince you otherwise, and you aren’t going to convince me otherwise. I like Shelley, I don’t think he is a liability on a 4th line, I just don’t think they needed a fighter, and could have saved some cap space signing a 4th line plugger, or if you really do need a fighter, signing a cheaper one, so when you aren’t dressing him, you don’t have $1.1mil scratched. Although, i think they plan on playing him a lot (games wise) based on his salary.
??
Hey Pdaddy – I like those combos… Am I the only one though that has a problem with Hartnell?? I got really frustrated with him in the playoffs.. not Chicago Series which I thought he played amazing… It was all the other series we were in where he took stupid penalties.
I really do like him but I think he is a liability …. His penalties are unscripted… Which by that I mean we can never be sure if he is going to or not… With Carcillo or Shelly you pretty much know what your getting… I don’t know… I just have a problem with Hartnell and Carter…
Oh well.. its whatever.. Time will tell what happens… GO FLYERS !!
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Really Hartnell Finally got his game going for most of the playoffs. If he is effective he will take penalties. Not a lot of them and not stupid ones, but penalties will happen when you are a net crashing agitator with actual skills. I really have no problem with Hartnell, I got frustrated for him during the season because he just was lost but as a valuable player on the team when he is on he is one of the best. Maybe not worth 4 million but again when he is at his best he can be the best at that role in the league.
Just Call Me "M"!
The fact that Carcillo acted on the idea that arbitration would work for him proves to me he still cant control his thinker
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
Well, if they offered him the minimum, he got 22k extra out of the deal. Not a bad cop at all.
But yeah, you’re right. I’m not figuring Chico on thinking this one through.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 13, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
I think I just get really frustrated watching the Flyers… I curse and yell at the screen like every 5 minutes and this is when we are leading 4 – 0. I guess the point I am making is we all have dislikes in terms of players.
Shit if I had my way Carter would be GONE and so would Hartnell…. The Carcillo and Shelly thing I am not even going to touch because it just makes no sense to me. …. but I am not Homer.
As for my reasoning or dislike towards Carter primarily is because of his shot selection… This kid could probably be really good but instead he keeps his head down a lot .. if you watch any scorer (good scorer) they look up… Once in a while Carter looks up and he is forever shooting the puck into defenders shin pads… I understand slap shots will get blocked but Carter who is supposed to be some whiz of a shot (he is good with the shot I know) but what is with the blocked shots. His shooting percentage is horrible because of that.. He does not give enough chance to score with that awesome shot because HE NEVER LOOKS UP>>. lol… Watch Zherdev his shots from outside areas… He is looking up every so often to see a hole or a weakness… Not Carter….. I like him because of his potential but I have not seen that kid that deked Ovie out of his skates since he did that 2 years ago.
Watch Danny score 20 goals this season. =)
I can read the future, while lesser men read comic books.
well he is supposedly taking a more offensive role next season…ok line time
some one suggested these lines
Carbomb-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Carter-Zherdev
that solves the carter on the wing problem but i’m still in favor of
Carter-richards-carbomb
hartnell-briere-leino
jvr-giroux-zherdev
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe??
Hey History…. I like those line pairs.. Minus Carter…. Watch this year… He will score because he is talented but watch how often he hits defenders shin pads and not because they were good shot blockers because he lacks the ability to look up and still get hard shots on net…. :(
Carter – Richards – Carbomb (Carcillo)
Jvr – Briere – Leino
Hartnell – giroux – zherdev
My only switch would be Hartnell and JVR…. I think that kid will have more available this year.
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
i dunno. right now you don’t touch the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line. they were magic throughout the playoffs and should stick together until they go cold
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
??
Really…?? I think sometimes even pre-season does dictate line combos. I agree they were on fire but they are going to be off for a while.. I dunno.. I agree that u don’t fix what is not broken but I am just picking on Hartnell because I think JVR is going to be much better this year…..
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe later in the year jvr might move up in lineup but 3rd line is good for him now as it is less pressure on the kid, but i don’t see how the flyers go into the season changing up the 2nd line, they will atleast start the season with that line to see if the magic can continue
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Testing
I agree that testing the line will be helpful… I am not entirely sold though on Leino… He has the goods and I hope it continues..
Goal Prediction..
JVR – 24
Carcillo – 12
Giroux – 26
Richards – 35
Carter – 33
Hartnell – 25
Zherdev – 23
Briere -30
Leino – 21
Pronger – 15
Timonen – 10
Coburn – 8
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s a low prediction for Carter. Carter is easily 35 goal scorer
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
True
However, that is what predictions are for ;)
Not to mention I am not a Fan of Carter’s … Sorry Just dont like him.. Although I will give you merits with this one.. Contract year … Ya.. your right maybe he will try a little more to actually look up when further away from the net to pot some more.. Ok …
Carter – 35 ;o)
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully JVR does a Rick Nash and moves from a rookie slump to a 40 goal sophomore season.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
well jvr was cruising along and then hit a wall. hopefully conditioning and more time coached by lavy will improve his endurance
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
there is still one winger that will be on this roster we are 2.5 million over the cap Gagne + Boucher + Cote make 6.6 million. Take off that 2.5 million we got 4.1 million to play with just waive Gagne. That money will go to another winger and a goalie.
they will be able to trade gagne. might not get back a lot but will get a trade done. I’m pretty sure that the cash saved by trading gagne, waiving cote and boosh will go to resigning powe and maybe signing Turco
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s talking about “Danny” Carcillo.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the name Danny doesn’t fit him. Crazy Dan or Carbomb or Chico, yeah, but Danny? Nope, that belongs to our dimunitive center.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I agree Todd, just sayin’ man. I still refer to him as Carbomb at all times.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 13, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Carcillo
Carcillo could score 25 this year if he gets his regular turns and plays the third period.How does anyone justify sitting him in 3rd period after he scores game winner OT vs NJ ?
ok
so, there’s no way in hell im reading 300+ comments. So dont hate on me if im asking a repeated question. But, what does this mean for Powe and Shelly? If I had to chose, I’d put powe on the 4th line, and put Shelly, or more specifically, his 1.1 million, with the Phantoms. and just use Nodl or Labamba(aka Laleberti) as our extra.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
It means we are $2.5 million over the cap. If we are able to move a big contract in the next 3 months then we could sign Powe.
But seriously, read the thread. It’s a single bagger but it’s still decent.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Im all for trading Gagne. I dont want to, but looking at it, Carter has more room to mature then Gagne has productive years left. But I wouldnt care if it was either of the two. I also dont, well, I would be fine if we didnt get one of LAs goalies. Id rather a 1st, personally. those goalies are just future 5 million dollar contracts that we dont have room for. Now I know that in 3 years, we’ll most likely loss Kimmo contract, and Pronger and Danny fall to half of what they make, but we’ll need the money to replace those guys too. So I’d rather get some forward or defensive prospect in the 1st.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Me too I am okay with waiting on our huge lot of goalies and getting a young winger for Gagne and Signing Turco.
I don’t like Marty … I would however take one of La’s Goalies.. Breiner or Quick… If quick then leighton is backup if Breiner then Leighton is starter ;)
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernier wants to start this year. I heard before that he will test FA if he doesnt start with LA. So it would be a waste if we traded for him, sat him, and he left afterwards and we lose Gagne for nothing.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
True
I however find it hard (for him that is) being as young and with very little experience to ask for what HE wants ( one win over .500 ….4 and 3 .. and I guess what I mean is a Starting role.. But see the Flyers got the short end of this GOALIE does not matter anymore stigma because Niemi Kicked our asses and we have leighton ;) lol
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernier was also a top 11 pick, and has dominated the AHL for two years now. Just like Matsamoto dominated with the Phantoms, but he wanted a trade because he knew he would never get a chance to play with the Flyers. So he asked to be traded.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
if Bernier is as good as he appears there’s no way Kings hold onto both Bernier and Quick for two years. They will fight for starting job and then the loser will be traded. this is what i imagine happening
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Or
they can get something by trading one, instead of losing bernier to FA. Bernier is gonna be great, but Quick is already great, they can afford to lose one and still be competitive, but to lose one without getting anything in return would be asinine
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
exactly why I wouldn’t count them out as possible returns for Gagne. sure LAK’s plan is to let them battle it out and maybe trade one later but they have a need at wing and if Kovie doesn’t sign with LAK then gagne might look attractive enough to deal us one of them
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Im sure LA would trade him for Gagne. But I was saying that I would rather not, or should I say, I would rather get a 1st for him
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
and then what about goalie problem? are we really going to go with Leighton as the starter…ugh
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
True but we all know to well that there are such thing as career AHLers…. Mark Greig … hmmm oh yea.. John Slaney.. Just to name a couple…
So these players are riding the coat tails of Niemi and Leighton then if that is the case hoping for that starting role and lots of moola in the future if they do well.. Not a bad racket I suppose
by Michael72380 on Jul 13, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
If I was to spend the farm on a Kovalchuk I wouldn’t want to solely rely on Bernier as my goalie that is not the best way to protect the success of that huge investment. I don’t think they are going to trade on of their goalies.
eventually if both pan out, one will be traded.
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Pronger and Briere’ cap hit will remain the same though. One of Carter, Briere, Richards or Giroux will have to play wing this season
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Carter
He said before that he would play wing but Richie has to center him (or something along those lines) so as long as he plays 1st line wing, he wont complain.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
and no, There cap hits fall down in 2013. Danny will be 3 million, and Pronger will be 3.5 i think.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Cap hit is the same as salary. Football is the one where cap hit differs from players salary.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I’m pretty sure it’s not. That is why the league has problems with long contracts that are front loaded in order to reduce cap hit
Capgeek Hit the show salary/show cap hit button a few times.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Incorrect.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Highly incorrect. Briere and Pronger both have front-loaded contracts with even cap hits.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
Sorry, did not realize I was piling on…but then you did mention football….
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
Yeah in football you can just cut a guy and it goes away no buyouts required because they contracts are not guaranteed. NFL players want as much cash up front because that is cash in hand and guaranteed. I am not sure how the bonus money is counted in the NFL. I think that gets spread out over the cap or something. Either way the NFL cap was a joke there were so many ways to avoid cap hits and this year is un-capped anyway.
What? Why?
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Their contracts are made so they make more in the first half of contracts. Lots of players do this because of either age or injury risk.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Salary falls, cap hit stays the same throughout the life of the contract.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
really?
guess I was wrong, But i know prongers falls because he was a +35 contract, or am I wrong on this too? I miss the days of no cap : (
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I’m pretty sure it stays the same. Even for Pronger.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Incorrect again.
Same cap hit throughout his entire contract, and because it’s +35 it doesn’t come off the books even if he retires.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
well
dont I feel like a huge dick in the ass
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
The downside to trading Gagne and keeping Carter is we’re only going to see him mature for one more year, in all likelihood. If we want to keep Giroux and JVR after this season, there’s no freakin’ way we can keep Carter.
Gagne may well leave us after next season as well, but at least he might be willing to take a pay cut after this season. Carter certainly will not. It’s never too early to start thinking ahead, and I’d imagine teams will be more willing to give up better picks and prospects (hopefully freeing up a lot of our cap space in the process) for a guy like Carter instead of a god like Gagne. Not that I’m biased or anything…
So many of us have said this. Use Gagne’s salary for Leino, JVR, Zherdev, etc., in 2011.
Some of us will be upset if we trade Carter because we think he is a much better player than Gagne (not me, by the way).
However, very few of us will be “sad” if he is traded. We will if/when Gags goes.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
We can keep Carter JVR Giroux and Leino we can’t get Carter + Gagne JVR GIroux and Leino. Carcillo and Zherdev signed one year deals so that won’t affect signing those other guys. And if we essentially turn Gagne into a bunch of RFAs we will get something in return.
Perhaps you’re right, depending on what we do elsewhere, but I think it’ll be very hard to put together 4 lines with Carter, JVR, Giroux, and Leino past next season. It might be doable, but I think it’ll be really, really tight if it’s even possible. At work now, so I’m not about to run the cap numbers, but if Giroux continues his play, I think he’ll be expecting $2 million plus per year, and Leino might be the same.
If it came down to choosing Carter or Giroux+JVR (or Giroux+Leino, or even just Giroux), I’d be on G’s side. And I think we’ll be at that point at the end of the coming season anyway. Seems silly to be thinking about it now, but I’m already worried, hah.
I’m trying to work out if you’re being serious. Unless you think the combined raise for Carter, JVR, Giroux and Leino will be around 2-3 million. Because that may end up being Giroux alone.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 14, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I can understand people making the argument about Carter being a much better player than Gagne, and I think we’ve seen glimpses of that, but ultimately, I don’t think he’s performed to the level of his salary, even given an allowance for his injuries. I think Gagne has played closer to his salary, and obviously, there’s plenty of us who love the guy. We’ll see what happens…
gagne salary is basically the same as Carter’s and in terms of point production Carter easily trumps gagne. I know gagne means more to the team than just point production but is it worth his salary? doubtful. gagne is unlikely to be maintain next year even if he takes a discount. think of it this way: would you rather take a guy who has the potential for 45 goals in a season that is 25 or a guy who used to put up 40 goals per season but can’t stay healthy and is now an old 30
by historywillbemade on Jul 14, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair points. But I don’t think Carter is worth his salary either, and he should get more in return in a trade (if we want to pickup players instead of prospects+cap space). And we’re not hurting for anyone to play center, and we are hurting for wingers. If we keep Carter, and he doesn’t work out at winger, we could be in a tough spot where we end up wanting to trade him anyway.
I suppose it’s rehashing old arguments at this point, but I think both guys are probably gone at the end of next season. One I’d hate to see go now or a year from now, the other, I wouldn’t mind so much (despite his potential), no matter when it happens.
I don’t mind the signing. 1.075 for 1 is fine and Carcillo deserved a raise.
I mind the context of the signing. We’re over the cap. Is it really the time to be adding agitators, no matter what their PDiff and offensive upside is? I would rather Homer get us under and stop digging a deeper hole.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 7:59 PM EDT reply actions
well that will likely require gagne trade which is dependent on kovy signing
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Zherdev signing required the Gagne trade Carcillo was going to get a deal since we offered him a qualifying offer.
gagne trade was likely happening before Zherdev signing since we were close to the cap and had positions to fill. now it’s a necessity
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yes but it also depends on how many teams are bidding for gagne’s services. if it’s just one team then yes return goes down, but multiple teams bidding for trade might yield a good return and improve negotiation
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
On a fanpost somewhere I mentioned the game Eastside Hockey Manager 2007 (it’s addictive, only try if you’ve got lots of time on your hands, which I didnt…but anyway…). In that game it’s a decent strategy to take all the opportunities you can get in the way of nice trades and free agent signings, exceed the cap, and then trade away the pieces required to get under the cap, possibly for picks, so you can then have a huge draft. That’s a decent strategy, but only in a game. Because in the real world, if you are over the cap and the days to training camp are counting down, then your conversations will go something like this:
Homer: “so what would you give for Gagne?”
Lombardi: “Jack Johnson”
Homer: “and?”
Lombardi: “that’s it.”
Homer: “that’s a complete lowball offer, come on, give me a break”
Lombardi: “meh. I don’t really care either way. Cyaa Homer”
Homer: “nooo…but wait!!!”
desperation continues for a couple of weeks
Lombardi: “so Homer you were talking about Gagne, how’s that going?”
Homer: “hate you.”
Lombardi: “so it’s a deal”
Homer: “…”
Homer: “yeah OK”
Hopefully that’s not how it turns out. Hopefully Lombardi doesn’t try and exploit the Flyers’ situation. That might also create a bit of bad blood between two front offices that often work together but I’m just saying that’s how it can turn out.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
No, the Flyers had two outs:
- go to arbitration, walk away from whatever is decided
- hold on to him, but then release his rights, essentially making him an RFA
A qualifying offer does not guarantee a deal. It’s good practice to qualify everyone who you might want to hold on to.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 13, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with this offseason hasn’t been with the forward signings, but with the D. So after Meszaros and Coburn, we have the most expensive D in the league. Does anyone think we have the best D in the league??
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 8:20 PM EDT reply actions
Pittsburgh is back up to where it was when they had Gonchar, Scuderi, and Gill but not better than ours
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Martin+Michalek plus development of younger players > Gonchar, Scuderi + Gill
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Pronger and Kimmo > Martin and Michalek and our next 3 Coburn, Carle and Meszaros is better than Orpik, Letang and Goligoski. I do like Orpik over Coburn, Carle and Meszaros but Letang and Goligoski don’t scare me one bit.
That wasn’t my point. It was that the Penguins D is better than they were before. Letang and Goligoski will be above average defenders.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Goligoski has good offensive upside, but his play in the corners is suspect. And Letang is kinda the Pens Meszaros – if he matures a bit and plays more responsibly he’ll be good, but right now you hold your nuts in your fist every time he tries to advance the puck.
That said, as much as I like Michalek and Martin is possibly the most-underrated defenseman in the league … the Flyers have the best D. Easily.
Question is, will that defense be worth the $23.2 million they’re spending on it?
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
Flyers have the best D in the league, no question.
Burke is trying to battle you guys for the most expensive though.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
On paper.
In reality, it’s terrible.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
two words about Leaf’s defense: Jeff Finger
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Better two words on why they were so bad
Vesa Toskala
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
They should be decent this year though right? I actually look at the Leafs team and feel a bit concerned. Of course they lack a center but everywhere else looks ok
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
They should be decent this year though right?
That’s actually the Leafs motto since the lockout.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jul 13, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
We can at least be thankful (and all agree) Homer did not sign Vesa.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
whenever i’m down about homer, i look at chicago’s cap hell and think our problems aren’t that bad. we only likely end up losing gagne
by historywillbemade on Jul 13, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes I think along those lines too, but what a loss that would be. He’s not the kind of player that grows on trees; he’s the kid of player that gets forests named after him.
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But then sometime that old forest has to be clear-cut and used as shipping lumber in order for little Giroux, Leino and JVR trees to get the proper sun and nourishment
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1 for clearheaded practicality.
-1 for coldbloodedness.
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the guy and I would never submit this on a post focusing on how great Gagne is, but I do see benefits to him going. It may not be the best move the flyers have ever made, but it definitely isn’t the worst move. I actually see it as a really smart move.
Saying this and sharing it shouldn’t be labeled cold-blooded or heartless.
Im certainly not offended, or trying to single you out at all.
It just seems like its become a sin to see the positive aspects of Gagne leaving philly.
Its not my intention to offend those who hold the man as their fan favorite.
Focusing the benefits dose not lessen his talents or his achievements, and it dose not make me lass of a fan of #12
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
IMO, one of the worst parts of sports is having to let go of fan favorites. No one can stay forever and its great to send them off into retirement, sometimes they have to leave earlier, even when they still have gas in the tank so that younger players get a chance to shine.
If moving Gagne allows us to secure Giroux long-term during the season as well as Leino and JVR while giving us some pick to replenish the farm, its a win. A win that’ll make me sad, but a win neverless.
"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State."
- Cris Carter, NFL Draft, 4/25/09
twitter: @princessblueezy
Oh, I realize that——my response was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Salary cap era realities are a bitch, and Homer has to look to the future, pure and simple.
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Salary cap era realities are a bitch, and Homer has to look to the future, pure and simple.
But I’ve seen no evidence of that at all. Instead, he’s looking at the problem he just created.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 13, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
We only end up losing Gagne
Le sigh… Only few words yet they sting like a dagger. Oh well, I know you guys are only being pragmatic… that’s something I won’t ever be able to do though.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
no one wants to lose Gagne. just like no one wanted to lose Upshall, Umberger, or Knuble, but the cap practically dictates that if you want to build your team, you will have to give up someone you don’t want to give up. it just happens that the player we are giving up this time is a career flyer who is a fan favorite that is an excellent 2 way player that should retire as a flyer.
by historywillbemade on Jul 14, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
it just happens that the player we are giving up this time is a career flyer who is a fan favorite that is an excellent 2 way player that should retire as a flyer.
It just happens huh? Sorry can’t agree here. But I think we’ve been saying the same things over and over again for past two weeks. It’s getting old so I think we can agree on that we disagree ;)
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
If Coburn plays like he did in games 3,4, and 5 vs. Chicago, all next season, and Meszaros totally works out, and all else remains constant, then I think we’ll have a great D, but I have my doubts…
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 8:27 PM EDT reply actions
Give him a chance
Carcillo is only 25 years old,he is maturing as a hockey player He has real hockey skills to go with the grit and tough guy stuff.He has speed, passes very well, has a decent shot, works the corners and the boards to help set up the scorers on his line and hits any thing that moves..He does all the garbage no glory stuff that the team has to have and no one else wants to do.If he plays on Richard’s line next year FOR ALL HIS SHIFTS FOR 3 PERIODS and maybe gets a little power play time he will score 20 to 25 goals.(he had 12 this year with limited on ice time.)Also I think he was promised a nice contract next year for taking one for the team this year to stay under the cap. Shelly is Cote replacement nothing more.Carcillo’s real height is probably 5 ft 8 inches so anyone who questions his guts is a real idiot.
I’m not taking issue with your central point about Carcillo, but to say that Shelley is nothing more than a Cote replacement is absurd. Do you realize that he was part of one of the Rangers’ most productive lines when they made their push at the end of last season? Do you see Cote as ever being an integral part of a productive line in the nhl?
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you realize that he was part of one of the Rangers’ most productive lines when they made their push at the end of last season?
Do you realize that in his 21 games with the Rags, he had 2 goals? In his last 2 games?
Ha! Well I never said he was an offensive dynamo; I merely meant that he’s more of an asset to the team than Cote, both offensively and defensively. Is he worth the money we’re paying him? No. Do I want to fight with you guys on what is essentially my first day on this board? Also, no.
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Used right and Shelley will be OK. Overpaid, but OK.
It is part of your initiation. Thankfully I only got a 10 hour beating.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
I understand. Btw, meant to compliment you on your sig, and agree with the sentiment 100%.
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome aboard
Love the smart username
especially since Frankenstein is also known as The Modern Prometheus
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh man, you’re right! That’s weird.
Earlier I was going to make reference to Homer opening Pandora’s box, but I knew my paltry knowledge of Greek mythology would quickly become evident. Love your sig too. I tried to organize some grilled cheese and beer parties at my place for this year’s playoffs, but since I live in Pittsburgh nobody came…
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 13, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats funny!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 13, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
You think it’s funny that no one went to his grilled cheese and beer parties? I think it’s a travesty.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
That’s because they eat salads with french fries on them in Pittsburgh.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I’m not sure where you are going with that because french fries with salad sounds awesome.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Not the way they make them in Pittsburgh. It’s weird, man.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
If I could have a salad that had french fries instead of lettuce, Id eat a healthy lunch every day!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 14, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep, especially considering I went the extra mile and got some gruyere, and the beer was g-o-o-d (doubleh knows what kind of mentality I’m dealing with out here).
by Jody_Shelley's_Frankenstein on Jul 14, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
"Good taste is knowing what taste good"-Ron Bacardi
I guess people in Pittsburgh dont have good taste in Hockey Teams, Grilled Cheese or Beer
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 14, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I actually like Shelley. Saw an interview with him, and he’s very certain what his role is within a team. Just thought calling him productive was a stretch….
philabright argued on his twitter for a few tweets how people from philly are the only ones who don’t have a nice thing to say about him because we think he’s an expensive cote, but that homer has stated several times that he’s going to play, not sit in the press box, and that they’re not just paying him to fight. i like him too though.
Oh I’m sure he’ll play. And I’m sure he’s on that 4th line. It’s not like people don’t like him. People dislike his contract. Anyway… I’m sure he’s a great guy. His interviews make him seem like a true team player. And I know fans from his old teams LOVE him.
Perhaps we can have a separate discussion on whether the enforcer role is needed anymore.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Jul 14, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
This. I don’t understand what’s so hard about distinguishing the player from the contract. Do people hate Danny Briere? No. They see the dollar sign and get angry. Do people hate Jody Shelley? No, they hate the contract Holmgren signed him to.
Exactly like you said, I’m sure he’s a fantastic guy who will be great for this hockey team. That doesn’t mean I can’t complain about his 3 year, $1.1 mil contract.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 14, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
This is Philadelphia, so anything people can use against us they will. Even if they don;t have the facts straight.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
by Mike B on D on Jul 14, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Also I think he was promised a nice contract next year for taking one for the team this year to stay under the cap
Do you think they pinky-sweared?
Why all the fuss about a winger getting less than $100K over his qualifying offer? Zherdev’s signing put the Flyers over the cap — Carcillo’s hit is about half of Zherdev’s.
It’s not like Carcillo’s signing changed the team’s Cup chances any.
Again, it’s not the contract that’s the problem. But it’s just that you can’t just go around signing everyone you feel like. This offseason we’ve added Meszaros, Shelley, O’Donnell and Zherdev, raised Coburn, Carcillo and Leighton while subtracting only Powe (for now). We’re over the cap and Homer is making us go further into the abyss.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 14, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I am the servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udûn! Go back to the Shadow! YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!
Uhm, I’m sorry… couldn’t help it. That’s what happens to me when I see a word “abyss”… I don’t know why though. Guess I have issues.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
A Recap
a recap on needs:
Wing help – need one or two wingers
Defensive help – need a 5th defensemen and to resign Coburn
Goalie upgrade
Defensive help? Solution – overpay 4th and 5th defensemen
Goalie Upgrade? Solution – sign Leighton to 1.55 million fuck the team contract
Need one or two wingers – Solution – lose Simon Gagne, make risky move on questionable (albeit potentailly very good) player, add enforcer (Shelley) to the 4th line, add agitator (Dan Carcillo) to 1st line.
Summary: Flyers improved laterally – defensively better, offense worse when it didnt have to be, most important need – goalie – unaddressed.
Conclusion: Paul Holmgren – if no winger or goalie is netted after or from gagne move – should be fired.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 14, 2010 7:46 AM EDT reply actions
agreed the biggest need (goaltending) went unaddressed and unless homer gets a goalie for gagne or signs a goalie with gagne’s cap hit then trading gagne is generally wasteful
by historywillbemade on Jul 14, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
amazing all the moves homer made, and they all either cancel eachother out or are inherently unclear themselves, that the success of the offseason comes down to the aftermath of simon gagne.
which that alone just shows what a confusing job holmgren has done.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 14, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
well outside of the leighton and shelley deals, everything he has done so far has been a pretty good deal….in a vaccuum. problem is taken in context of the other deals and limited cap space some of those deals could be terrible ($4million for #4 or #5 defenseman for a draft pick and this team needs to draft more)
by historywillbemade on Jul 14, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Holmgren has no intention of upgrading the goaltender. What he did is decide they are to have a system goaltender with a much better if not deeper defense in front of him.. They watched this work in the playoffs and figured this is the way to go. After the couple signings they made Gagne’s money is half spent already, the remaining will be cap space for down the road and at the trade deadline. The team lost in the playoffs when the 3rd d pair played, not when the top 2 pairs played. They went out and made the d much better so not to sag when the top d needs rest rest.
Just Call Me "M"!
upgrading the defense isn’t going to stop your goalie from letting up bad goals. I don’t how anyone can look at the finals and say that the 3rd pairing lost us the cup, but we can look at goaltending as the reason we lost. Sure have a good 3rd pair will help keep top 4 rested but that’s not going to stop Leights/ Boosh from letting in bad goals. poor goaltending lost us 3 of the 4 games in the finals and the other game (game 2) was a game stolen by a goalie. If they don’t upgrade goal now, they will have to look at it at the deadline
by historywillbemade on Jul 14, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The room for improving the defense in front of the goalie was minimal. That’s why upgrading the third pairing with such an expensive fifth doesn’t make sense. Does anyone want a pairing that doesn’t feature Pronger or Kimmo on ten or more minutes a game?
Does anyone want a pairing that doesn’t feature Pronger or Kimmo on ten or more minutes a game?
Actually, now I do. Now that we have Mesz & O’Donnell, I’d love to see Coburn/Mesz get ~20 minutes of ice time per game.
That’ll keep the aging stars at their peak, and is a great insurance. Remember when Timonen went down 2 years back? We were screwed. Now, we’d be hurting, but definitely not screwed.
We will get scored on a lot. Whoever O’ Donnell is paired with has a history of giveaways, the number one problem with our third pairing last year.
I don't expect O'Donnell to play 20 minutes
I do expect Kimmo & Pronger & Coburn to play with Mesz a good % of the game, O’Donnell as #6 with 10-12 min a game.
Really
Meszaros + O’donall > Parent + Bartulis
Sherdev + Carcillo > Gagne by himself
Leighton at $1.55 million > Nabby at $4 million
Leighton = Turco, Ellis
If Gagne gets us a 1st rounder, I’d be more then happy with that
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
wow
this community has gotten about a million times more active over the past year. good stuff
Actually, everyone new on here is MarioD under many different alias’s, so that he could practice his back and forth for his law career. But that’s why everyone is civil, because even he can’t bring himself to tell himself he’s wrong.
by Vansteel on Jul 14, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Those are nice oranges, but they are nothing compared to the apples I’m talking about”.
Probably my favourite quote.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
by ToddtheFox on Jul 14, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would still love to pay that dude to come to my house on a saturday, feed him some background info and have him argue with my wife for a couple of hours. She wears me down and reduces me to cursing and name calling and of course eventual collapse, but he could really put up a decent fight and maybe get a couple of my points across. Of course there is always the chance she stabs him in the neck but either way it’s win win for me, right.
Just Call Me "M"!
by MJDII on Jul 14, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Friday’s Three Stars: Blackhawks lose seventh straight; Wings win nineteenth straight at home
- Puck Previews: Blackhawks reeling; Sabres streaking; Holmstrom’s 1000th game
- Will Teemu Selanne remain with the Anaheim Ducks through the trade deadline?
- Nikolai Zherdev takes stick to crotch, elbow drop in KHL game (Video)
- Puck Headlines: Accused coach Pravilov dead; more Tim Thomas heat; Junior team goes nuts post-shootout
Latest stories and headlines from NHL.com
- WHL Roundup: A look at Friday's games
- Franson scores winner as the Giants edge the Silvertips 3-2
- Ross with goal and assist to lead the Winterhawks over the Americans 4-2
- Wedman, Aviani and Valcourt lead the Chiefs over the Thunderbirds 5-4
- Elynuik scores winner as the Cougars beat the Oil Kings 5-4 in OT
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
