SB Nation Philly Editor's Pick
Why the Flyers should not trade Simon Gagne
by Katchis on Jul 2, 2010 7:21 AM EDT
Email
Print
If it happens I want it to happen fast. As the patch is ripped off the wound so it won't hurt that much. Since last night when the infamous tweets about "Gagne playing his last game as a Flyer" appeared I was a nervous wreck. It's been taking too long and this anticipation of the big trade, the Flyers are most likely to make soon, is becoming unbearable. I barely slept, I'm beyond nervous and I'm on the verge of tears while writing this post. You might smirk and think that I'm overreacting.
I probably am, but you need to know one thing. Simon is the reason why I became a Flyers fan. Why I have two teams that I genuinely love, instead of just one. I always loved Gags and he literally brought some of the orange into my veins. All the Flyers gear that I possess have #12 attached and he is pretty much one of the main themes in my bedroom (with all the pictures, posters and hockey cards around). I'm not going to pretend anything though, I haven't called myself a Philly fan until the mid of the 08-09 season. Which makes me look really bad, among such fans like most of you are, following this team for decades. You might also call me a bandwagoner if you feel the need to. I wouldn't mind. I'm used to that.
With all what I said above I just wanted to outline why this most likely will be the saddest day of my life as a hockey fan. Not even losing the Cup in Game 6 this June was that heartbreaking as this probably will be. Everybody (from what I've read and heard so far) is focusing on why Simon should be traded, why this would be a good move by the team. I would like to look at it from my own (without a doubt biased one) perspective. So after the jump, I would like to try to bring some reasons why he should stay.
First thing to focus on would be the player's hockey skills and abilities, naturally. As people like to point out, Simon was one of the main reasons why we managed to rewrite NHL history archives and come back from being down 0-3 in a series. Yes, the Boston series. I'm not going to say that he single-handedly got us to the ECF, this is a team sport, but you can't deny that hadn't it been for Gagne, we would have seen totally different and much shorter playoff journey. Even though he didn't score that much in the rest of the season, you can't say he was invisible or useless. Despite being in the worst pain he ever experienced in his career, he always did his best out there. He was always the first guy to come back in his own end, to back check, to help out his teammates. He blocked shots, he dived to get the puck out of the zone, he was always out there, playing his heart out. This, besides his indisputable offensive skills, is something we should value and give him credit for. He's really one of the best two-way players you find in the league and also a great penalty killer. That is, if he is healthy. But that applies to every single hockey player.
My next point was briefly mentioned in the previous paragraph. That would be Simon's heart. There are only few guys that exemplify a devotion and a dedication to the team as Gagne does. His love for the Flyers is something that makes him very special. It is something that makes him suck up some pain, go out there and if it's needed, play on the broken foot. He plays for the team, for his teammates, for the fans, for the joy of the sport itself. He's not a hockey player for glory or money. With that said, I am more than 100% sure he would accept a paycut if it was needed from him. He loves being here just like we love having him here.
NTC. Simple three letters. They have a meaning, of course, but to me it seems they are not handled the way they should be. In my opinion, if team offers you a NTC it should mean they value you very much and like having you on their team. They want to show you that they appreciate what you have done so far and they won't treat you as a business item. It should give you the right to come and say "I love playing here. I don't want to go anywhere else." and they should not try to make you think differently. Is this always the case? Hardly. Most of the times I saw players being forced to waive off their NTC, even though they had no intent to do so at first. Team managers always try and usually find a way to walk around it. I am sure that if Simon is asked or pushed to waive his, he will. And that is, if you ask me, a wrong way to treat your player. A player that has been part of the organisation for 11 years. Player that with all he's done deserves to have his own banner in the Wachovia Center (sorry, the new name is just icky), to have his number retire and get another shot to win the Cup with a team he fell in love with the second he became a part of it.
There was a lot of talking if we should trade Carter instead. It could be the right move as much as it could be the wrong move. Same applies to possible Gagne trade. You never know if you made the right decision until you see the consequences of your making. And we won't see them until the season goes underway. Gagne can get injured again, or he can click and show us some OMGagne magic. As well as Carter can be a monster or underachieve. You never know. I am one of those who would rather see Cartsy gone than Gags but I'm definitely not saying that trading Carter would be all right and good thing to do while trading Gagne would be all wrong and total failure by Holmgren.
As I implied, everything has both sides. I only tried to focus on the good one, when writing about Gagne. Because as you probably already figured, I love Simon Gagne more than anything or anyone in this league, heck in the whole hockey world.
This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
110 comments
|
12 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Well said, Katchis. So well said that I can’t add anything. Thank you for writing this!
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 2, 2010 7:35 AM EDT reply actions
Thank you very much! I really appreciate that. Thanks for the rec too :)
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
You’re welcome – it was an honor to rec. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 2, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
With all the moves made, trading Gagne would be the worst move. I’m with Travis when he said I would only be satisfied if we got one hell of a package for him.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
or atleast had the space for Nabby and Afinigenov
by historywillbemade on Jul 2, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I know. I’ve seen that like zillion times yesterday. I can’t agree though. But that’s not surprising either.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
I’m right there with you. The idea of the Eastern Conference Champs banner being raised in October and Gagne not being here… well it’s horrifying to me.
Thanks! It’s horrifying me too. I’m hoping it won’t happen, though I think I should prepare myself for the worst. :(
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
what will sting more: losing gagne and getting something back or losing gagne to free agency. I agree he should remain a Flyer
I hope there won’t be any “losing Gagne”. Not now, not after the next season. If we keep him now, I truly believe he would be willing to sign a cap-friendly deal that wouldn’t hurt our financial situation and he could retire a Flyers.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
I would hope that even Katchis realizes that it would be the most unfair thing for the Flyers to do to Gagne.
This is the new/current account of RyanGiggs11
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Jul 2, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know why everyone is hating on Tampa. I guarantee they will be a playoff team next year.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
…writing this down.
Mancrushin' on Geoff since April 20
"Good night. Good hockey."
by KreiderDesigns on Jul 2, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a clear opinion on this. Despite my huge love for the Lightning (they were the first NHL team I ever truly loved) I could never accept ANY trade involving Gagne. Even if it was to the Tampa Bay Lightning. Not because they’ve sucked too bad for past few season, I have a respect and faith in the Bolts, but because I can’t imagine Simon in any other jersey than orange & black. If there’s a “Gagne” written on the back of the jersey, there only should be the “P” on the front (okay, Canadian, red maple leaf is also acceptable, haha). With that said, no, even Simon in Tampa wouldn’t make me happy. Because I can’t imagine HE would be happy there.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
I always knew the day would come that the Flyers would need to make some tough personnel decisions regarding their talented group of forwards. Never ONCE did I imagine that Gagne’s name would come up as someone who would be traded (or even be ASKED to be traded).
The practical, realistic side of me realizes that this chatter – whether it holds any water or not – is a necessary evil that goes along with today’s NHL. In the Salary Cap era, contracts are shorter and teams have to manage their money. No longer do we have the teams of decade-long dominance. Good teams now have maybe three-year windows of opportunity to win a Cup before it’s time to restock / retool, given the movement of players. And all GMs need to get the most value for their money. It’s not easy to build a competitive team and keep it that way for too long.
Look at our lines from the 2008 playoffs:
Prospal/Gagne-Briere-Knuble
Umberger-Richards-Lupul
Hartnell-Carter-Upshall
Thoresen/Downie-Dowd-Kapanen
I know Gagne didn’t play in the playoffs but he would have been in that slot if he were not injured. Prospal was a rental. Even so, of those 14 players listed, only 5 are here as of today. By contrast, go back and look at the Flyers teams who made the finals in 1985 and 1987, respectively. There isn’t much difference between the two teams. My point is that the game has changed, and it is a little naive of us to think that someone could be a franchise lifer in today’s NHL. There are some likely exceptions (Crosby, Ovie and the like) but they are few and far between.
But we are not NHL employees. We are fans. We can analyze stats and contract values and what have you until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it’s not going to change who our favorites are. Gagne is a fan favorite, both for his play on the ice and his longevity with the franchise. Little did we know when he was a rookie in 1999, but it marked the beginning of the end of the Lindros Era and ushered in the Year of Our Gagne. To me he will always be the last survivor from the Tumultuous 2000’s, the “Naughty Aughties” that saw the team go through 5 coaches (6 if you count Laviolette), experience the worst season in team history, deal with the many headaches caused by Lindros (pun intended), suffer the heartbreak of 2004 and 2010, experience the disappointment of 2002, 2006, and 2009, and ride the hope of 2008.
My point is that Gagne has been here through it all, and I cannot remember one disparaging thing said or written about him. The Philly media can be brutal; in fact, I can be a particularly harsh critic of the Flyers myself, and Gagne never once received my wrath – or anyone’s. I can never remember a single time I pointed at Gagne and said, “He’s not trying hard enough” or “His head is not in the right place” or “He is immature” or ANYTHING like that. I don’t remember our notorious sports “writers” saying anything bad about him either, other than worrying about his health. For Simon, it has always been all about the team. And that is why for so many of us, the team has been all about Simon.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
by mikefive on Jul 2, 2010 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
The last two paragraphs of your comment made me cry. I wish Simon was treated like Crosby, Ovie are. I wish he was as “untouchable” as Carter seems to be. Or Richie. Or Prongs. I wish he stayed here forever cause he deserves it. And I wish this were not naive wishes. :(
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
great post. We’ve had to make decisions the last few years (ever since lockout) that no one likes (think Leclair and Recchi not retiring as Flyers, Umberger leaving via free agency, trading Upshall for Carcillo, not resigning Knuble, now possibly trading Gagne/ Carter), but have to happen to maintain the team.
by historywillbemade on Jul 2, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Great post....but don't despair
In the other thread I wrote a long post about why it is unlikely to happen. Short version: With an NTC and an injury, there are impediments to either team making a trade, which usually means it is not going to happen.
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
I love simon....
but if his heart. and NTC are the only reasons to keep him…. listen, he had a real nice playoff run, even with the injury, until the SCF. yes that counts for something, but the flyers cant look at this situation with their hearts, like you are. if they feel gags has lost an edge, it has to be done.
I never said his heart and NTC are the only reasons to keep him. Even though I spoke mostly about this year’s playoffs, his qualities showed throughout the season. He played 58 games and collected 40 points in them, that’s about 0.7 pts per game. Okay, this is probably not dazzling number but I’d say it’s pretty solid. Plus, although Simon is primarily a goal scorer, his play in our own end is very valuable. His back checking is something that should not be overlooked only because he’s a forward. He’s also great on special teams. Both PP and PK.
And I highly doubt they would send him away because they feel Gags has lost an edge. The “importance” of Gagne trade wasn’t even brought up until we got dangerously close to the salary cap with all the questionable signings.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
And I forgot to add that if Gagne was going to be moved eventually it will be ONLY because of financial reasons. To free some cap space. So it wouldn’t be about his skills and qualities as a hockey player.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Stand By Your Man
Great to see your loyalty. Well said. rec’d
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
Carter and Gagne
I’ve been thinking of this situation since Carter signed his extension 3 years ago…
This is going to be short, cause I have a lot of drinking to do, but I want to just compare/contrast Gagne/Carter… Please don’t jump down my throat, the only Flyers jersey (not t-shirt jersey) I own is a Gagne, and I have loved him as long as he’s been on the team (as well as everyone else, he has never given a reason not to)…
Gagne will be UFA next year. Carter will be RFA next year. Advantage: Carter.
Gagne is 30. Carter is 25. Advantage: Carter
Gagne makes 250k more this year than Carter (not that big of a deal)
Gagne: .69 PPG this year (.63 PPG in playofs). Carter: .82 PPG this year. (.583 PPG in playoffs). Advantage: Carter
I can keep analyzing the stats, but you can see that it looks like Carter is more valuable to this team. This doesn’t factor in the fact that we have at least 5 good centers (Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Betts) and that doesn’t include Darrol Powe. That point goes to Gagne. But the Flyers will be looking at this decision from a business, and more importantly, future of the franchise decision.
The Flyers would LOVE to be able to lock up Jeff Carter for a good 5 years after next year. Pulling Gagne off the books would allow us to throw a couple million more at Carter ($7MM per year should sign him for 5-7 years). This will also give us some money to give Giroux the raise he is going to get. Ville Leino is UFA after next year too…
Basically, if there’s a trade, its looking more and more like Gagne could be the culprit. But seeing how he has the NTC and history of injury…. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if this team started the season as we stand today…but I also wouldn’t be surpirsed if they made a trade or two… This is why the offseason is so much fun!
Oh btw @Katchis, I just started following you on the TweetBox… @FrickBrian
I see your points. Hence why I said neither of the possible trades would be through and through good/bad. I just have the feeling that hadn’t it been for some of the July 1 signings, we wouldn’t have to think about this “Carter or Gagne” dilemma.
(following you too now)
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
We’d have to think about it next year anyway as both would be free agents along with Leino and Giroux (rfa). At some point we knew the Flyers would likely have to part with one of these two and maybe it’s better they do it now when they can get some return for Gagne, as it seems Carter figures into the future of the franchise
by historywillbemade on Jul 2, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Counterpoints:
gagne is 30, Carter is 25: Players contracts generally begin to decline in dollar amounts as the get older and older. Therefore Carter will cost much more than Gagne in their next contracts. Advantage: Gagne in terms of fitting into a salary cap
Likewise, Carter is younger, and an RFA which means that he has more value in a trade and will get more return. Advantage: Gange (to stay in Philly)
Positionally Gagne has the advantage to stay as he is not a center.
<3
I woke up at 3am, 4am and 5am to check Twitter to see if Gagne had been traded. Every time I got back to sleep I would have a dream that he was traded. Gagne has been the only Flyer I have known the entire time I’ve been a fan. The Flyers without Gagne, I don’t know what I’ll do.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
root for the flyers
as eagles fans learned this year, it’s the team, not the players on it, that count.
Man I guess I have to be the a**hole. He has had a brilliantly inconsistent and somewhat disappointing career sprinkled with some definite highlights. The 5 million could be so much better spent elsewhere. I predict that if they don’t get rid of Gagne he will play between 55 and 65 games of which 25 will be worthy of his salary and when he gets healthy at the playoff time it will be “like adding a free agent” or making a real trade that the team won’t go out and do for the umpteenth season in a row. Thanks Simon I will not forget your contributions and what could have been if your weren’t chronically hurt.
Just Call Me "M"!
Flagged for inappropriateness (not really, but I was tempted).
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
by ToddtheFox on Jul 2, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes. This.
I remember when Gagne first broke into the league all those years ago, he was sold to us as this near-Stratsburgian prospect. He was going to be the future. And we waited patiently for him to develop, watching him turn in many frustrating campaigns and watching other high-potential young talent get the boot (Justin Williams, Patrick Sharp). And finally, in the year after the lockout, we all remember him coming back about 20 pounds heavier, and he seemed to be otherworldly stronger and faster. Finally, the Gagne we were promised had arrived. And from 05-07, it was good. He fought for every puck, sniped from anywhere on the ice, found all the soft spots in the defense for Forsberg to set him up in, and forced turnovers everywhere (all while playing 152 out of 164 games). He was great.
But ever since Bowmeester popped him in the head at the start of the 07-08 season, he has not been the same player. Yes he had a nice March and four great games against Boston, but as you said he is plagued with chronic inconsistency (see: 2 goals in 21 games in January, February), and I find myself asking “did Gagne even play tonight?” far more times than I’d care to with a $5 million player. He no longer fights for those turnovers everywhere, he is very rarely the dazzling playmaker that he once was. His penalty killing is still top notch, but we can get good PK minutes out of many players who make a fraction of what he does. Not to mention the fact that he is now the new Marian Gaborik/Martin Havlat. Is it possible that he will, sometime in the future, play a full season again? Yes. Is it likely? Faaaaaaaar from it.
I don’t have the emotional attachment to Gagne that everyone else here has (and I’m not knocking it- just saying I don’t feel it), so to me not only is trading Gagne the right move, it’s downright easy. … please don’t hit me.
"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."
i have the emotional attachment everyone else does
but i still see things the way you see them… what we have is a great-but-not-elite 2 way LW sniping playmaker who disappears for stretches and gets injured a lot.
We can get that in Zherdev, minus much of the defense but plus more cap space (and Zherdev doesn’t have the injury history of Gagne)
Nor is he over 30, a UFA after this year or a LW(which is just as big of a logjam as Center).
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 7, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really.
Our centers: Richards, Briere, Carter, Giroux, Betts. The first three listed could be top line centers on a large number of teams, Giroux could be a first line center on some of the weaker teams too. The problem is so much that we traded away the top scorer on the Phantoms because there was no chance he would play for the NHL team with us.
Our LWs: Gagne, Hartnell, JVR, Shelley, Cote. Hartnell is not really a top line center. JVR might grow into that role but at this stage he definitely is not.
Our RW situation is best not talked about though.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 8, 2010 5:26 AM EDT up reply actions
more rumors tonight
It’s horrible reading about it (ESPN, Eklund) — Gagne being asked to waive his NTC. I’m so ashamed for us. The whole point of having a no trade clause is so this kind of thing DOESN’T happen. Lump in my throat. I hope he knows how much he is loved.
That is EXACTLY what I was trying to point out in my post. What’s the point of NTC if you’re going to be traded anyway? And in case you don’t waive it you’ll be labeled as a jerk? That’s just ridiculous and it would be better if there was no such thing as NTC… cause in the end, it doesn’t mean a thing. It’s pointless.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
It’s horrible reading about it (ESPN, Eklund)
If Eklund’s making rumors then it’s not going to happen.
In Lou We Trust: Now More productive than a New Jersey Devils Powerplay
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 2, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He was right this time, I guess. 2%.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
Follow me on Twitter!
by red army line on Jul 3, 2010 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Forgive me for rebutting your reply but...
but with all do respect, I’m older, have been a Flyers fan longer, and don’t feel that someone’s personal affection for a player is any basis for an argument. There’s been scads of Flyers players I’ve loved to watch play over the years. When you get to my age you get some perspective on this, as the guys I watched play as a kid are not only retired but old and gray now.
Simon is an elite player — a top tier player who has been a bit fragile, but I think has bounced back thanks to some great therapies and surgeries. In a lot of ways he’s extremely lucky that he stumbled upon the anti-inflammatory treatments for his post concussion syndrome, because 2 years ago it was looking like his career was close to an end, and just being able to have put up the campaign he put up last year is a huge win for Simon. We can not overlook however the simple fact that he missed the better part of 2 seasons of the Richards/Carter era.
All we have now is rumors from people who make it a business to spread those rumors in the interest of their pocketbooks. I’m sure there’s not a fan in Philly who wouldn’t be behind Simon flexing his no trade if the deal on the table was one that was gonna dump him on a trash heap. I’d love to see Simon stay a Flyer and raise a cup next year, but his role with them is no matter how you look at it, a diminishing one.
The thing is — I think that Simon still wants to play hockey, has unfinished business, and like anyone else wants a chance at the cup. I don’t see anyone waiving their NTC in a circumstance like this unless there’s something in it for them. As much as sentimentality plays into a situation like this, the fans want a cup, this team is as close to one as I can remember since the Lindros era, and Homer is going to do whatever he thinks he needs to to get this team into a position where they can bring it home, even if that means trading Gags away. Sentimentally, fans will be sad, but everyone wants the ultimate prize and for the core of the team, right now is the time.
by Gizmoitus on Jul 2, 2010 7:49 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm embarassed
If the Defillipo reports are correct…yuck
It matters who we get back….and if it is essentially to get Turgid, I’m furious.
Katchis I’ve been trying to reassure you as I’ve been writing long-winded posts about why it probably won’t happen. Not only is it apparently going to happen, it is for stupid reasons.
Waive Leighton and Shelley. Don’t sign Carcillo. You then have $$ to sign Turgid (yes, yuck, but at least you have Simon then).
You better be getting Nabokov and lots of draft choices, Homer. We’ll still be angry. But just get Turco and cap space to sign lesser lights and we will be heading to your office with torches and pitchforks.
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
by Bud in TN on Jul 2, 2010 11:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
eww agreed. I want Nabby and not Turco unless we sign another wing or get one in the trade (think Simmonds). nabby plz, not turco
by historywillbemade on Jul 3, 2010 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d much rather have Nabby, however, again in the past the Flyers have not been a team that went after Russian players. This reputation may be coloring negotiations. For all we know he just doesn’t want to play in Philly no matter what the team did last year.
We got Briere because of the Flyer’s french canadien player block. It’s reasonable to assume that these same sorts of dynamics impact other decisions. If Nabby signed with Philly, who would he be able to chat to in Russian when he was po’d and wanted to vent? If there had been a deal from Detroit, he’d probably have signed in the first 10 minutes.
That’s an interesting point, and something I hadn’t thought about. Little things like that definitely do count though. Who would want to feel alone like that? A language barrier, no matter how small, can be a barrier to team building and chemistry. The Flyers have a really nice French Canadian base set up with Briere, Gagne, Giroux and Lappy so if a guy who’s French Canadian isn’t that good at English they’ll still have someone to talk to, to translate, to become friends with. We have had a decent number of Finns come through as well. Russians….well…
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 3, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
While I definitely agree that little things like this can play a huge role in stamping out contracts, I have to specifically disagree with the notion that Nabby doesn’t want to be here because he wouldn’t have anyone in the locker room to vent with. And I only say this because, who did he have in San Jose? As far as I know, there isn’t another Russian on the team, and during his entire tenure there, the only Russians they’ve had were Sandis Ozolinsh, Alexei Semenov, and Alexander Korolyuk, who played a combined 160 games there (keeping in mind that Nabby has been with them as long as Gagne has been with us- like 800+ games).
"He told me, 'Keep your head up.' I didn't realize he meant the whole season."
Good point
I didn’t know the history there as much. I would certainly hope he’d be interested in the Flyers, but on the other hand, the Sharks have been a perenial contendor the last three years so maybe he figured he was already on a stacked team and that didn’t work out.
Katchis, I’m not a Flyers fan but I feel for you on trading Gagne. I’m sure if I were a Flyers fan, Gagne and Carter would be up there among my favorite players (along with Richards). As it is, they have talents I admire.
There are numerous rumors about one of my own favorites being traded. Ironically, Carter would be the logical person to trade to get this guy.
Rocking the Red since 1975
July 5th
This is from ESPN: Kings source also tells ESPN.com this morning that Simon Gagne not considered an option for them.
That can only be good news, right?
Hard to say
They still need to clear cap space.
well i just read the opposite, the kings are still interested in gagne. I think the Kings are a good suitor as they have plenty of cap space (can take on gagne’s contract), plenty of prospects and young players we might get in return (simmonds, bernier, quick), and plenty of flyers connections (hextall, ex-flyers, Murray).
by historywillbemade on Jul 6, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Gagne broke in with the Flyers the same year I really started following the Flyers. He’s never been my favorite player, but I cannot imagine the Flyers without him. I don’t want to see him go because he the last link to two of my favorite Flyers teams (the 00-01 Flyers and the 03-04 Flyers). I realize that he’s never quite lived up to expectations, and he’s struggled with injuries recently, but he always struck me as a guy who genuinely liked playing for the Flyers and was never here for the money, and I like that.
I just think this entire post is completely irrational. Carter is difficult to trade without getting back relatively equal value that carries high salary. Gagne isn’t. He isn’t an elite scorer, or an elite defensive player. He is a defensively responsible winger with a streaky but effective scoring touch who is overpaid, injury prone and on the last year of a contract that will see him leave as a UFA. He is not replaceable in the locker room, but he is very replaceable on the ice. Like it or not, the guy is a hit away from retirement and you can get something back for him before he leaves as a UFA. Carter has much better value, to the point where teams aren’t going to trade for him because Homer isn’t an idiot when it comes to trading and it will take a King’s ransom to get him.
Get prepared for this trade because anyone thinking we are going to get Simmonds or Brown back is a bit delusional. Why would you give up either or those guys for Gagne. His trade will likely give us an average NHL player a prospect or two to possibly make the Phantoms resemble a legitimate professional hockey team and a draft pick.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 7, 2010 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ditto
The more moves they make the more it becomes apparent that Gags is going to be a sad but necessary salary dump. I’m not as sure that Gags is in as bad shape as some other people have said. I thing he had 2 years in a funk, but was able to rehabilitate himself, to the degree he’s probably played the best he has since the concussions in the last 3rd of the season.
I see what you’re saying, but I doubt the “leave as a UFA” argument. There’s always a chance. But he’s got a rare opportunity to possibly retire with the team he drafted. He’s been in Philly for his whole career, has just started settling in with a family, and he’s poured his heart into the team. On top of that he’s mentored many of the team’s stars, guys like Richards and Carter. Unless the Flyers aren’t willing to pay him anything decent, or unless he wants to test the market and get as much money as he can before retiring, he would most likely re-sign with the Flyers.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 8, 2010 5:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but we also would have Giroux and Carter as RFA, Gagne as a UFA, Leino as a UFA and by the sounds of some of the reports from Russia Zherdev as a UFA….
It’s not practical to take that on in one offseason. If Simon really wants to come back then he can after this season.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
It’s not practical to take that on in one offseason. If Simon really wants to come back then he can after this season.
So they should take care of Gagne this offseason AND next?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I would assume re-signing the guy is basically going to be a basic FA negotiation. It is a lot easier to judge value on an open market than it is trying to re-sign basically 4 top 6 forwards in one season. Next off-season Gagne will be an option to bring back if he goes UFA rather than a guy who we are just going to lose outright AND we will have acquired 2 desperately needed things for him: Cap room and probably either draft picks or prospects.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
True, but eff Holmgren for putting us in a position where we need cap space. Sign Jody Shelley before Powe?? Really??
But back to Gagne: If the Flyers offered him a 4 year, $12 mil extension ($3 mil cap hit), wouldn’t you be happy with that? I’d much rather get Gagne locked up and deal with Giroux/Carter/Leino later.
You know you’re re-signing Giroux, so why would you re-sign Carter when you have Richards, Briere, and Giroux looking for playing time in the middle?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m with you. We’d be looking at Gagne taking a significant pay cut at the same time everyone else wants their raise… To me, I think if we kept both Gagne and Carter next season, it would be Carter we’d be more likely to lose at the end of next year, because I don’t know how much of a raise he’s going to think he deserves. The pay cut Gagne would take could be given to Giroux or Leino, but where would the raise for Carter come from?
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 8, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Well guys, I’m not saying I am happy with it. I am basically going from a we got what we got perspective. With our roster as it is now, I think moving Gags makes the most sense.
If it was me Leights walks, we sign Turco cheap, waive Cote, re-sign Gagne(extension for next year)/Carbomb or Powe, and get Afinigenov. <—- if mathematically possible
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 8, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
And I think moving a Center instead of a winger, keeping a guy who will be taking a pay cut next year as opposed to a guy who will demand in increase, and/or fixing recent bad decisions (Shelley, Meszaros) makes the most sense.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but we don’t live in a vacuum. The center you’d be moving is in the beginning of his prime and becomes a RFA, the winger is 30, oft-injured and a UFA at seasons end. It is not going to be possible to trade Carter equal value on the open market right now. I think you can solve some probs by trading Gagne right now. Shelley is a terrible signing, I like the Meszaros trade though. I think he is going to be better than people think(that is the optimist in me), Homer is not done but he had better have something up his sleeve I agree.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 8, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
A) We’d be moving one center in the beginning of his prime while retaining a center in the beginning of his prime (Richards), one in the twilight of his prime (Briere), and one on the cusp of his prime (Giroux).
B) Wingers are in short supply on this team
C) When both contracts are up in the next year, Gagne will take a paycut while Carter receives a raise. When you have Giroux, Zherdev, and Leino up for new contracts too, why would you retain 4 guys who will receive a raise and ditch the guy who will take a paycut? What will the cap look like next year in that scenario?
D) Why can’t you trade Carter for equal value?
E) If you can’t trade Carter for equal value, how can you trade Gagne for equal value when every GM knows the Flyers need to trade someone? (This goes back to: Why sign Zherdev before you make the trade?)
F) Even if Meszaros is better than people think, why not sign Z. Michalek and save your cap space? Why have your third highest paid player be your #5 dman?
If those questions seem a little argumentative, I apologize. Every comment I leave that sounds angry is all anger directed at Holmgren, never the people who give him the benefit of the doubt/agree with him.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Gagne is not replaceable because what he brings to this team, no one else can bring. I think that the more Homer tinkers around without regard for the character of this team and the lengths they were willing to go through for each other the greater the risk that his new cobbled together roster may not be able to go the distance. It’s one thing to trade a weak player like Parent. It’s a whole different gamble to trade Gagne away, because of what he means to the team.
And I think the more we think with our hearts and not with our brains the more we cripple this team. This team as it stands cannot go into next season because of the cap, and Gagne makes by far the most sense to trade to create cap space. The Locker room stuff is a bit overrated anyways in regards to what losing Simon does. Kimmo, Briere, Richards, Pronger, Lappy, and Betts are more than enough to keep this a close knit team. Make the team on the ice better, the farm system is barren and we have no cap room. Trading Gagne can help address both issues.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
I still reckon that if the primary issue Homer is trying to address is cap room, he ought to just flip Meszaros for something. I like Meszaros, and I like what he brings to this team (best defense in the league!) and the potential he has. But the truth is he’s our 5th defender, which to me makes him much more expendable than our top winger.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 8, 2010 5:32 AM EDT up reply actions
He is an injury away from being our 4th defender. With this team’s injury history the likelihood of that happening for a significant period of time this year is pretty high. Plus he is young and if and when Timmonen leaves will be a mainstay in this organization. Face it, trading Gagne makes the most sense. I love him as much as the rest of you guys but it is the right move.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
Why does he even need to be traded? To make room for Carcillo and Powe? Do you need Shelley, Carcillo, and Powe on your team?
Why can’t the Flyers waive Cote and use that money to sign Powe? You then have $1.12 million to sign Powe. Say he gets $650k, you have $477,737 with 12 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goalies signed. You want another forward to carry? Why do you need to get rid of a $5.25 million cap hit?
If you simply waive Jody Shelley and Riley Cote, you can re-sign Powe at $650k and carry Andreas Nodl ($850k) and Patrick Maroon ($528,333) with just under $200k in cap space.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
If you are bringing in Zherdev for less than 3 million dollars as is reported then you are probably not done making moves. Let’s for the sake of argument say it is 3.25. That is 2 million free right there. Waive Cote and Bouch and that might be enough to sign Turco and Powe. Which in my opinion clearly makes this a better team and maybe rejuvenates our farm system a bit depending on what we get in return.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
So you’re trading Gagne to make room for Zherdev?
To be honest, I completely forgot about Zherdev. But that just makes me more mad. I have no idea what Holmgren is doing and I no longer trust him. That may change when I see how the Gagne situation resolves itself, but why would you trade Gagne for only $2 million in cap space (assuming Zherdev is at $3.25mil)?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
b/c for $2 million in cap space you can get a goalie? who knows?
by historywillbemade on Jul 8, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Why get a goalie with the only cap space you have?
When the Flyers re-signed Leighton, they should have said “he’s our starter” and been done with it. What’s the point in going cheap in net if you’re going to give both your starter ($50k) and backup ($625k) raises from the previous season?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That possibly upgrades you from Leighton>Boucher to Turco>Leighton assuming you waive Boucher and Cote right?
Plus in that scenario we could get a decent prospect and a pick possibly? By decent I mean a guy who can help the Phantoms because they are atrocious, and quite frankly any prospect with a real shot to help this franchise who goes there is going to be eaten alive by the fact that they have no help. Look at Ricahrds and Carter on the Flyers in 06-07, same difference AHL vs. NHL….
I know we are trying to get over the hump, but that does not mean you just ignore the future.
I’m not saying I love the situation we are in, but I’ll let Homer dig his way out(or his own grave) before I condemn him.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 8, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said above, why trade Gagne so you can sign Turco? If that’s what you want to do, you shouldn’t have signed Leighton and you shouldn’t have traded for Meszaros. Bam, there’s $5.55 million right there. Either you upgrade the D or upgrade the G, you don’t do both when you know you only need one.
Lastly, the problem is that Holmgren is already digging his grave. This offseason has the potential to be the beginning of the end for him.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m not sure adding meszaros and odonnell will stop leighton from giving up goals he should stop (see scf)
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Certainly not. But you can’t sink $30 million in your back-7. Either you have a high-priced goalie or you have a strong defensive team.
In a salary cap, there’s no way you can have an excellent goalie and 6 very good d-men. You’ll be the Calgary Flames. Either limit chances on your goalie or have a goalie to fix your team’s mistakes. Now, obviously, if you can get an excellent goalie on an EL deals, good for you.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
this strategy leaves nothing left over for cheesesteaks when your team loses bets.
June 30, 2010. We will rue this day.
See I’m not sold on him to that extent. I think he could definitely become a good top pairing defender if his development progresses outstandingly, but I don’t necessarily see him as filling a void left by Kimmo or Prongs. Both of those guys are no. 1 stud defensemen that are going to leave a huge hole that needs to be filled with a genuine no. 1 (guys like Drew Doughty, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook: the next generation of stud no. 1s)
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 8, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Most teams aren’t going to carry two #1 defensemen. It’s nice to have now, but we need to look to the future of this team. Meszaros will probably be a #3 or #4, possibly a #2 if he develops nicely. Yes, he’s overpaid for what we’ll use him for this year, but if he reaches even most of his potential, it will be a good signing.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Lay off Gagne.
Everyone should take a step back and stop critisizing Simon Gagne. I he needs to be traded to free up salary cap space, fine, it will sadden the hell out of me but at least I can understand it. But just stop with this “one hit away from retirement”. He had ONE season of concussions, and if you guys don’t remember, IT WAS TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO! Christ I’m sure the guy has taken some good hits since then. Yes, he was injured for a lot this season, but it wasn’t concussions, plus he battled through them amazingly. When he broke his foot against the Devils, he came back two weeks early. Plus, game 4 against crutches he came into the bulding on crutches, that’s a devoted player if you ask me. So I doubt that he’s one hit away from retiring. Everyone is bound to get injured. Are we saying that Briere is one groin strain away from permanent damage, no, or is Carter a broken foot away from ever being able to walk again, no. Look Gagne has been injured over the past year, but it has not been do to head injuries
by Flyersfan94 on Jul 9, 2010 3:51 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
As I posted elsewhere ...
Take heart, Gagne fans. Unless the Flyers get a roughly equivalent two-way forward in return, Gagne will stay. The signing of Zherdev guarantees it. The only other left wing that could possibly play with Zherdev would be Leino, since Zherdev is a complete defensive liability. SO, Gagne stays (to my mind at least).
keep them both
keep them both and dump hartnell anything to get that salary off the books
"I've gotto go with PSU. Ill make that pick every year till I die, and eventually it's gonna happen. Hear me now."- LL Cool J
I feel bad that no one ever talks about Blair Betts.
he never has bandwagons (for or against )
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 11, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a cultish Blair Betts following. It exists. In secret.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 11, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Hartnell is a guy we need. He’s like the new Mike Knuble and John LeClair. The only reason he didn’t have another 30 goal season (maybe only 25) is because of his divorce. Once the divorced settled (near the ned of the season) did you watch Hartnell erupt? He became the old Scott Hartnell. He, Briere and Leino were the best line in the playoffs, and basically kept us alive during the SCF. It was Briere’s incredible run, Leino stepping up and Hartnell’s re-birth, we would have been run over by Chicago. We can’t lose Hartnell.
I wouldn’t say we ’can’t’ lose him, but I will say that I want to see him have another shot with the Flyers. That said, if we can move Hartnell before Gags and Carter, I would be fine with that. We would still need another LW, and we would still need another net presence. But his contract’s pretty bad and we can’t be sure which Hartnell will turn up next season.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 11, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Hartnell’s contract is expensive, but when he’s on his game he deserves every penny of it. He’s played here for 3 seasons, and two and a half of them he’s played well. His first year he played on our first line with Briere and Prospal, being a key part of it at that. Last season he scored 30 goals and had 30 assists, which is mor ethan he’s expected to do. This year he went through a divorce and only had 16 goals, but erupted in the playoffs once his divorce was over. I’m sure next year he’ll have at least 20 goals and played very well.
position
I wish this fanpost hadn’t been moved off the main page…..It would raise my spirits daily just to read the title…..
I don’t know where the recommend button is, or I would have recomended it, in spades.
There is a passion involved in being a fan of a player, and in being a fan of a team. When a team like the Flyers has real character and beats incredible odds, [largely because of Gagne — (Boston series)] it will always be a mistake to think that moving a key player will not affect the spirit, morale, and soul of the Flyers. In some real sense, they put their lives on the line for us, or at least risk serious injury in a split second of any game time — they should command our loyalty. And at the very least be treated with dignity. Gagne has not been given that respect. His saga is played out in the media almost every day — with speculation and innuendo. I can’t help but think it will affect the whole team to see how such a leader is treated at the end of the day.
Anyway, I love this thread because of its passion. I think that there is more of a certain kind of truth when hearts speak.
Thank you very much for your comment. Even though my post has lost its meaning two days ago, I’m really glad you liked it. It was nothing but my heart that led my fingers while typing it. Thank you again. I really appreciate it.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch!
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Broad Street Hockey
Related FanShots on Broad Street Hockey
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Wednesday’s Three Stars: Devils fourth line steps up; Watch Prust dive
- Stephen Gionta leads Devils in Game 5 triumph over the New York Rangers
- Rangers, Devils back at MSG for pivotal Game 5; NHL 13 screenshots (Playoff Puck Previews)
- CBC announces ‘While the Men Watch Hockey Night,’ sets off backlash over sexism
- Eulogy: Remembering the 2011-12 Phoenix Coyotes
Latest stories and headlines from NHL.com
- Carter rescues Devils; New Jersey moves within 1 win of Cup finals with 5-3 win over Rangers
- Rangers' best game fails; Devils once again find holes in New York G Lundqvist in 5-3 victory
- Lundqvist struggles as Rangers lose Game 5, 5-3
- Devils-Rangers Sum
- Huberdeau leads Saint John to Memorial Cup semis
