Dan Carcillo files for arbitration
by Travis Hughes on Jul 6, 2010 12:24 AM EDT
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60 comments
The NHLPA has released a list of players who have filed for salary arbitration and Dan Carcillo is the lone Flyer on that list. The Flyers can still elect to head to salary arbitration with their other restricted free agents, David Laliberte, Matt Clackson and Darroll Powe, before a deadline set for Tuesday at 5 PM ET.
Meanwhile, Carcillo and the Flyers will meet at some point between July 20 and August 4 to hash out their differences.
What does this mean, exactly, for Carcillo's future in orange and black? Well, essentially, filing for arbitration is just Carcillo acting on his rights. It doesn't necessarily mean the two sides will get to that point, but it does mean that Carcillo wasn't happy with the qualifying offer he received from the club back on June 28.
We also know that qualifying offer was at least $984,375, or a 105% raise from his 2009/10 salary of $937,500 (I'm open to a math whiz checking that, by the way). So, essentially, Carcillo's filing for arbitration today means that he thinks he's worth more than $984,375 next season.
Will the two sides get to arbitration? They can still negotiate up until the date of the hearing, but should arbitration be necessary, it'll likely be a mess. Here's how the process works.
Before anything begins, the Flyers have the right to decide whether or not Carcillo gets a two-year deal or a one-year deal at the end of the proceedings. Clubs typically elect to go with one-year deals here.
Each side gets 90 minutes to deliver their arguments. First, Carcillo, his representatives and the NHLPA will provide their case as to why he deserves more money. Then, the Flyers and their representatives will provide the counter-argument: essentially, everything bad about Dan Carcillo.
Each side then gets an opportunity to argue a rebuttal and deliver a closing argument. Again, each side gets 90 minutes, used as they see fit, to do all of that. After, Carcillo may get a chance to deliver a 10 minute surrebuttal, depending on
Arbitration hearings are never joyous occasions, and it's common for bad blood to come out of them. You think a guy like Carcillo will be happy about a Flyers representative laying out on a table every reason why he deserves less money? Then again, Carbomb did elect to this process.
The arbitrator has 48 hours to make a decision. They decide the salary and they provide justification for their decision. Carcillo must accept this decision if he wishes to play in the NHL next season. This is a little fuzzy, but we believe the Flyers must accept the ruling if it's below a number somewhere between $1.3 and $1.6 million. Read below in the comments for an explanation on that.
On the other hand, should the ruling exceed this set number, whatever it may be, the Flyers do not have to approve the decision. Should they reject the arbitrator's decision in this situation, Carcillo will hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.
Obviously, should the Flyers accept or be forced by rule to accept, Carcillo is a Flyer again. But the bad blood that is sure to be created in this grueling process will leave doubt that the two sides can come to an agreement when necessary again in the future.
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Tim Panaccio had an interesting tweet earlier...
In the Clarkie era, every player who filed for salary arbit. was gone w/in one year after filing. Food for thought, for D. Carcillo
http://twitter.com/tpanotch/status/17838468552
This is the new/current account of RyanGiggs11
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
We were discussing in another thread the way 12.10.(a) seems to say the Flyers can’t walk away from the deal unless the arbitrator grants him a salary over a certain monetary threshold. Do you know anymore about that part of the arbitration process? It seems to me like the adjusted amount for that threshold would be in the 1.6M range, and according to Chuck Gormley at the Courier Post, Carcillo asked for 1.5M.
Ah, I hadn’t scrolled down and read paragraph (d) about that adjustment. I don’t know what the average league salary was this past year, nor do I know where to find that, so I have no clue what the adjusted amount would be. Where did you come up with that 1.6 figure?
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by Travis Hughes on Jul 6, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, RFA compensation is adjusted based on the very same percentage, so even though it’s nearly impossible to find all the numbers for the average league salary on public websites (trust me, I tried), I can find the adjusted RFA compensation brackets. It’s confusing the way it reads in the CBA, but in the end it looks like they start adjusting the RFA brackets and the arbitration threshold numbers at the same point in time, so they should have shifted by the same percentage. So took the 2010 RFA compensation numbers, calculated the percentage that they’ve changed since the 2005 numbers in the CBA; then I just applied that same percentage to the arbitration threshold figure. It’s still just a guess, but it’s the closest estimate I can come up with at this moment.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 6, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I looked at the total league payroll in 2005-06 and compared it to 2009-10, assuming the number of players wouldn’t change significantly. The payroll increase was about 28% (from $1,208,773,393 to $1,551,983,107), which would give a walk-away number of $1,338,080. There are some obvious potential problems if the number of players did change (due to injury call-ups or such), but I think we can say it should be somewhere between $1.3 and $1.6 million, based on the two methodologies.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
FYI, this is why I ballparked in my head a $1.3 or 1.4 basis in my head in the other thread, it was based on this assumption. But it would be no higher than $1.6.
BUT as I read the CBA, the arbitrator is not required to agree to a specific figure (a la baseball). Therefore the arbitrator could, uh, “arbitrarily” put the salary in the “must-keep” zone (except for the possible “get out of jail” clause we discussed in the other thread).
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
If he was asking for $1.5 million, I can see why an agreement couldn’t be made. The man has sick hands and can score you ~10 goals a year, but he is also an expert at hurting his own team really badly.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I think Carcillo should come in with a microphone and mini-amp, yell “Jody Shelley signed for 3 years, 1.1 per, and is 34,” and then leave the room for 89 minutes and 50 seconds.
by Snevik on Jul 6, 2010 12:39 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
haha i agree.. id be insulted if i was offered a five percent raise after the contract that jerkoff got too
To be fair, we don’t know what he was offered. He know the minimum amount he could have been offered. But Carcillo (or at very least, Carcillo’s agent) isn’t stupid enough to think that Jody Shelley and Carcillo’s roles on this team wouldn’t overlap, and that money spent on one is not money taken from the other.
You have to remember the time line of how this all went down. The Flyers gave Carcillo a qualifying offer around June 28. A couple days AFTER that is when they signed Shelley. So Carcillo was given the 5% raise prior to Shelley signing for $1.1 million.
I have a feeling, and this is pure speculation on my part, that the Flyers offered Carcillo a similar contract — around $1.1 million for three years — and Carcillo turned it down, asking for more money (about $1.5 million according to Chuck Gormley). Seeing that he was demanding more money than they were willing to spend, the team went out and gave Shelley the contract they had originally offered to Carcillo.
To keep riding the speculation train for another stop, I think the team is going to try damn hard to get an arbitration award in the $1.1 million range. Should they win that, and assuming Carcillo doesn’t have his feelings about the organization hurt too much in the process, I think we’ll see Shelley banished to the AHL for the year.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
by Grp_Cpt_Lionel_Mandrake on Jul 6, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Far speculation about the cap space. They Flyers have been taking cap lessons from the Eagles (God help us all). They probably have X amount on money sectioned off for each of their needs so dog-earring a specific about for a specific role player isn’t out of the realm of possibilities.
However I doubt Shelley will see the minors. I could see them trading Carcillo or releasing him from his contract before you would see Shelley in the minors. You don’t right a veteran player to a three-year, one-way contract then send him to the minors for safe keeping. You just don’t do that.
The Money We Offered To Carcillo
Makes me kinda ashamed to be a Flyers fan. Under a mil? Come on now….
Carcillo: “I wholeheartedly believe that my contract should be an exact replica of Amar’e Stoudemire’s”
"Can Geico really save you 15% or more on your car insurance? Is Mike Green really a forward in defenseman's clothing"
by FlyerGuy18 on Jul 6, 2010 12:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
my theory
Is that we offered Carcillo 1.1 million, and he turned it down. So we gave the same deal to Shelly incase we split ways with Carbomb, as insurance. Is Carcillo signs for the same amount, the we just send Shelly to the AHL and he wont count against the cap
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Or Shelley goes through waivers and the Rangers pick him up!
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
by ToddtheFox on Jul 6, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That would be ideal!!! Then they could ice Boogard and Shelley – and the opponents would basically get a 60-minute power play!
by penguinsfan on Jul 6, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm no math wiz
but that seems closer to a 5% raise than a 105% raise. Sorry, studying for the GREs, and the wording is more imprortant to decipher than the actual math on that stupid test.
It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.
Carcillo
This has more to do with dumping other salary (see: Gagne trade rumors) than with paying Carcillo. They need to have their salary cap in line before they commit to Carbomb.
Just to clarify a bit, Carcillo only gets a surrebuttal if the Club presents new “substantive issues” (i.e. new evidence) in their rebuttal:
If the party presenting second has raised new substantive issues or introduced additional comparable Players for the first time during its rebuttal case, then the party presenting first shall, upon the request of the NHLPA or the League only (whichever is the applicable party), have ten (10) minutes for surrebuttal, which may be used solely to address those new issues or new comparable Players and may not be used for additional closing arguments.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I am not really an Arbitration Aficionado … Does the qualifying offer mean anything once the hearing takes place? I assume up until the hearing that he can accept the QO and let that be that, but, if it get to the hearing, is the QO the number Carcillo would sign to or could the Flyers then counter with an even lower number? I think the arbiter could rule for a salary less than the QO (might be wrong there).
The qualifying offer specifically can not be part of the arbitration hearing (section 12.9(g)(iii)(D) of the CBA). The arbitrator is provided a list of comparable players (agreed on by the NHL and NHLPA), hears the arguments, and determines how much the player should be paid. Unlike baseball, it does not have to be either the team’s offer or the player’s request, but any amount the arbitrator considers reasonable.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
As I read the CBA, yes.
It is a strange whole section of the CBA. The arbitration discussion is extremely explicit about the conduct of the arbitration meetings themselves, how many rebuttals there are, etc. It is way less explicit about the arbitrator’s power (like, could he actually render an amount lower than the club’s or higher than the player’s? Per the language in the CBA it appears that way!). It is also slightly confusing about the club “walk away” clause as we discuss above.
This is kind of like your company being highly concerned about the powerpoint font in your presentation, but completely unconcerned about whether or not your project makes money.
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
by Bud in TN on Jul 6, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is also slightly confusing about the club "walk away" clause as we discuss above.
I didn’t find that section confusing. It works as follows:
1. If the Club asked for arbitration, they can’t walk away. At all. Period. End of story.
2. If the Player asked for arbitration, the Club can walk away if the average salary exceeds a threshold.
3. The threshold in 2006/07 was $1,042,173. It increases by the same percentage as the Average League Salary.
The Average League Salary is where things get fun. According to this page, it was $1,708,607 in 2006/07. I haven’t found this year’s average salary yet.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Dragongirl and I discussed this.
I agree with you re: the walk away provision. However, she believes that part a of 12.10 supersedes part c. Thus, in her view, part c this has to do with “how many” Flyers arbitrate. (Dragongirl, feel free to complain that I am misrepresenting your position. :-))
Note: where we all agree is if 2 Flyers arbitrate, then they can’t get out of more than one if both fall into the “must keep” zone.
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
True – the number of players requesting arbitration determines how many you can walk away from and when you have to decide. You can walk away from half (rounded up) of the players requesting arbitration. You have to decide within 48 hours of the last arbitration decision (the arbitrator can take 48 hours to decide) as to whether you’ll walk away from any of the players. Since Carcillo’s our only arbitration, we can walk away from one arbitration, and have to decide within 48 hours of when the arbitrator submits his decision.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
INCONCEIVABLE
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” ~~ Inigo Montoya
The arbiter will arbitrate … the other parties do not. The Club and the Player would go to arbitration or argue in arbitration. The person presiding over the deliberation, the arbiter, will arbitrate (define: decide) on who is more correct and side with that party. I know … not that important, but just saying.
…
So the Club, having not requested arbitration, could have walked away anytime until the Player requests the arbitration. Had they released the player from their contract before the Player requests arbitration the Player would become a UFA and could sign openly with any team? Would there be any cap hit penalties like in football for releasing a player after a certain day (start of free agency I think?).
However the Club can freely walk away from half of its arbitration cases thus they can choose not to sign the Player for the awarded amount and he becomes a UFA. Would that mean anyone can sign him for that contact or would he be free to negotiate for any sum? How does that all work with the Phil Kessel debacle last year? Could the Bruins not walk away from it or would the player remain unsigned but be a RFA still?
If the Club walks away from the arbitration contract, the player immediately becomes an UFA with no restrictions. Nobody else has the rights to sign for that same contract; he can negotiate with any team for any salary he can get.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
That wasn’t exactly what I meant, it was more about the ways part a and part c refer to each other, and that I don’t think either one actually overrides the other. In other words, you have to abide by all of those rules in both parts, and there’s not one free walk-away that isn’t restricted by the money.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 6, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
If you search, you can find articles that reference the Average league salary increase and mention rough percentage numbers, but the Average League Salary increases from year to year, as derived by the increases in RFA compensation, would be as follows:
June 30, 2006 to June 30, 2007 – 17.188% (lowest RFA bracket increases from $660,000 to $773,442)
June 30, 2007 to June 30, 2008 – 11.599% (lowest RFA bracket increases from $773,442 to $863,156)
June 30, 2008 to June 30, 2009 – 15.209% (lowest RFA bracket increases from $863,156 to $994,433)
June 30, 2009 to June 30, 2010 – 2.606% (lowest RFA bracket increases from $994,433 to $1,020,348)
That’s why it’s such an insane jump to 1.6M by my calculations, those percentage increases are huge.
by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 6, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Working off those percentages, the year-by-year Magic Number would be:
2007 – $1,221,301.60
2008 – $1,416,587.70
2009 – $1,632,036.50
2010 – $1,674,567.30
All the walkaways I can find are much higher than that (Zherdev at $3.9m being the main one), so there’s nothing to show where the number actually was.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
please just lose him
we dont need him here, all he does is annoy teams, he’s not the enforcer we need to protect our skill guys, teams have no fear of carcillo, he’s just a reason for teams to play harder against us. Id rather have Shelley who can actually beat the crap out of people when they take cheapshots at guys like Ville Leino.
we gave shelley 1.1 mil, there’s no reason to give any more money to fourth liners. we need Powe for the third line. he’s the only one im concerned about since we have no 3rd line winger right now for JVR and Giroux.
And god help us if Homer’s plan is to move Gagne for only salary cap space and not a winger, and we end up with Carcillo on the first line again. I will throw up.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 9:21 AM EDT reply actions
Remember how great carcillo was on the 1st line? If we resign him, that’s where I want him to play. Utherwise, your wasting his talents, though small, by letting him be a goon for small portions, rather then an agitator for a majority of the game.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I got to stick up for Shelley…I’m not happy with the length or terms of his contract with Philly but Shelley is way more responsible than Carbomb on the ice. He won’t net as many goals which is a downfall offensively but defensively you won’t have to worry about him taking bad penalties and he whoops wholesale ass better than Carbomb too. Dude is a warrior, we like warriors, give him at least a chance…and plus he probably will be sent down to AHL level so whats the worry?
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
plus seems like anywhere Shelley plays, people gravitate towards him. Columbus, San Jose, NY…all loved him.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
i think this fanbase is going to do a 180 on Shelley. Thats my gut feeling. but it’s going to suck if we have to keep both him and Carcillo, just a nice chunk of money wasted. I hope the Flyers are somehow able to just lose Carbomb. i like him, but I think we’re better off without him at this point.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Shelley is a very likable player, extremely likable. He is a class act in the NHL off the ice. HOWEVER…no one’s problem is with who Shelley is, or his game, it’s with his contract. Shelley could become the most loved player in Flyers history, but his 6 minutes of ice time per game, and the likelihood of him being scratched in games against teams without a legitimate tough guy makes his $1.1mil per year contract terrible no matter how much he is liked. Heck I like Shelley, even when he was in NY, but I still think his contract is horrible, and that won’t change unless he has magically withheld part of his game all these years and will finally unleash it in Philly.
My problem is at least partial based on his game. And his age.
There almost nothing Jody Shelley can do that makes happy we signed him to that contract, which is unfortunate, because the guy seems great.
Yeah, the contract is terrible. However, if they said they picked him up for 1 or 2 years at around 650K per I’d be happy b/c I like the guy a lot, and he’d be at least a good locker room presence.
Two years would annoy me, because while he’s fine enough, I’d rather not put unnecessary stress on our cap situation for next year.
I just don’t think he adds all that much that we didn’t already have, or gotten elsewhere in a better and cheaper quantity. I mean, Therein was a good locker room guy (and radio color guy, to boot), but he never really added enough to the on-ice product to justify dressed him in orange and black more than any other player in club history. We have a record of this kind of thing, and I thought we were over it by now.
Oh I agree, I’d much rather him not be here at all b/c the Flyers need every penny of Cap space right now. I just think the days of needing guys that are out there to just drop the gloves are dieing. But if it was in their plans, I wouldn’t have been so upset if it were at more reasonable terms; no matter how much you can like the guy, there is nothing redeemable about the contract Homer gave him.
Slight adjustment on Travis comment above
Several of us believe that the Flyers may be forced to keep Carcillo if the arbitrator amount is below what the arbitration standard is (which we all agree is between $1.3 and $1.6, but we aren’t sure what the specific amount is).
So, if the Flyers say $984 K and Carcillo says $1.5 and the arbitrator says $1.2, we think the league may require the Flyers to keep him (with all the attended salary cap problems).
It gets hairier if the arbitrator amount is $1.4 or $1.5 above (see TheDark’s posts).
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
So the point is... Carcillo's arbitration could complicate the cap problems. Potentially.
Two of the best nights of my life.,,,October 21, 1980 and October 29, 2008.
One of the weirdest...October 1, 1970. I kept part of one of the seats.
I was in college in Boston in 1974 and when Clarke scored the OT goal in game 2 I knew that the Flyers would win the Cup since they would never lose at home.
If anyone can find this year's average salary, the Magic Number should be 61% of that
Using the information from above ($1,042,173 Magic Number when the ALS was $1,708,607), the Magic Number is 60.99547% of the ALS. That’s close enough to 61% that I’d round it off.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I found 2007-08’s average salary – $1,906,793, according to TSN. That would have generated a Magic Number of only $1,163,144. I haven’t found 08-09 or 09-10 yet.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I got to give it to you, you are very persistent. And I appreciate all your effort since I’m very interested in what the number turns out to be…so thanks!
I think we’re going to need to wait for the official numbers – the CBA makes reference to the Average League Salary being calculated according to Nicolau’s 1995 decision; I haven’t been able to find the actual decision, but references from contemporary media suggest it’s based on weighted salaries – each player’s salary for this is the number of days played times their per-day salary, with the average found by dividing by total player-days for the year. However, there’s mention of marketing revenues being counted in with this, which is making me unsure about how it’s calculated overall. What I’ve been finding is just the average salary of all players, which will be quite a bit different from the Average League Salary.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
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