Should we give Jody Shelley a chance?
by Travis Hughes on Jul 6, 2010 1:11 PM EDT
in Commentary
158 comments
Since his signing here last week, there's been a lot of heat directed towards Jody Shelley. It's understandable, of course, for two reasons. One, we remember his two goals against us in games 81 and 82 last year. We made fun of him, called him a girl, etc. He was a Ranger. He deserved it.
But more so, the heat he's been getting is for his contract. He's a tough guy, an agitator, an enforcer. He's not going to score goals for us and he's going to be a fourth liner, a $1.1 million for three seasons is a lot of money to give to a guy like that. Then again, Shelley will be making less than another fourth liner on this same Flyers team -- fan favorite Ian Laperriere.
We know Lappy as the warrior on this Flyers team, and because of what he does and how he plays the game, we would never complain about the $1.16 million he counts against the salary cap each year. Money well spent, right?
I'll be honest. Before the Flyers signed Shelley last week, I didn't really know much about him, and I'm sure most Flyers fans are in the same boat. Just another tough guy in the NHL, right? Well, from what I've read in the last few days, I've learned a lot about what people think of Jody Shelley. I've seen a lot of similarities between him and a guy like Ian Laperriere.
For starters, we know Shelley will be a fourth line grinder on the Flyers next season. He's going to be on that line with Blair Betts and Laperriere, more than likely. So let's get a sense of what he's going to bring to that unit, directly from the man himself. Here's an interview Shelley did with CSN California last November when he was playing with the San Jose Sharks.
Being a presence, he says, whether that's on or off the ice. Laperriere isn't a guy that goes out an intimidates people. He fights when he has to, but it's not in a policing type of way. But other than that, Lappy does exactly what Shelley is describing above. He's more useful on the bench and in the locker room than he is on the ice most of the time, but that doesn't mean he can't bring something useful to the ice as well.
And by all accounts, Shelley isn't a bad hockey player. Talking with Joe Fortunato of Blueshirt Banter on Rink Side Radio last night, he vouched for Shelley as a defensively-responsible grinder who leaves it all on the ice. He's not a guy that we're going to dread seeing on the ice, says Joe.
Shelley can play a regular shift in the NHL on a fourth line and be an effective member of that line, in addition to being the enforcer that the Flyers have lost in Arron Asham. I mean, let's be honest here. Lappy fights, but he doesn't police. Cote won't crack the roster, and without Shelley, the fighting falls on the shoulders of Dan Carcillo, should he return to the Flyers. That's uh, not preferred.
This quote from Sharks GM Doug Wilson on the day Shelley was traded away to the Rangers back in February speaks volumes of what Shelley brings to a team, I think. From the San Jose Mercury News:
"We have a pool of players going forward that Jody Shelley has had an impact on and that will be felt for years," Wilson said.
Outside of the fact that he's a solid hockey player with a defined role that will only help the team, Shelley is a genuinely great guy. Take this reaction from Fear The Fin after the trade, for example:
We would also be remiss not to mention the work he did with the late Ryan Salmons, a Blue Jackets fan who succumbed to cancer on May 1st, 2009. Shelley was a professional athlete who committed his time to helping his community; in a day and age where the public is bombarded with stories of lavish lifestyles and immature behavior, it is refreshing to see a player who went the extra mile to acknowledge the common fan. He was, and still is, a class act.
Shelley also hosts the Jody Shelley Golf Fore Health in his hometown of Yarmouth every summer. The foundation raises money for medical equipment used in hospitals.
If none of that sells you, consider Colton Orr's stupid antics whenever the Flyers are his opponent. You know, things like taking a run at a Flyer goalie and getting baited into several minutes of penalty time. Shelley, perhaps, is the league leader in pissing off Colton Orr.
I'm not saying we have to love the guy immediately, and I'm certainly not saying that there's no chance of regretting the signing. But I am asking for people to give the guy a chance to show up at camp and put on an orange uniform. After that happens, then we can pass judgment.
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Thank you, Travis. A lot of people are being very judgmental about Shelley, and that’s not fair to him. And blaming him for these Gagne trade talks isn’t fair either. Even if the Flyers had that $1.1 million in cap space, they’d still need to clear salary because ~$1.7 isn’t enough to sign both Carcillo and Powe just like $577,738 isn’t. Homer wanted to upgrade the defense and with the salary cap as it is, that meant he needed to make downgrades somewhere else.
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As I've already said...
I like the guy. The guy is a great human being as well as a stand up member of a team. The problem is, he isn’t killing penalties like Lappy will. Lappy also played about 5:30 more minutes per game than Shelley.
Shelly could easily turn in to a fan favorite, however, his contract will always be terrible. That, of course, is Homer’s fault, not Shelley’s.
Right, I’m not saying that he’s worth 1.1 million a year, but I think judging him before he steps on the ice or even buys a house in the area is premature.
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by Travis Hughes on Jul 6, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t want to come across like I don’t like the guy. I think he is what he is as a player. I also think most fans here will love him. He gets a lot of time on Home Ice on XM, and I love listening to him (part of the reason why I am a fan of his), and I really think fans here will gravitate to him. I will just always hate that contract…and that’s not meant as a shot at him (I don’t expect anyone to turn down “free” money), it’s just a fact of that contract being ugly gievn the cap situation facing the Flyers this year and next.
confused
What makes Lappy a penalty killer and Shelley not? Is it a given that an “enforcer” only plays 5-7 minutes a game and isn’t involved in PKs or PPs? Also, I’ve read that we wouldn’t play Shelley during the playoffs. Is that because we wouldn’t want to risk that he would tend to take penalties for his “enforcing”?
On another note, I do not think Carcillo is being a team player to go to arbitration. What a difference from Gagne. I think they should let Carcillo go — though it seems as though they can’t if the arbitration number the arbitrator decides on is low enough. Or something like that that involves a lot of math……
I can't answer that definitively, but I can take a stab...
Look at his career numbers, he doesn’t play the penalty kill and that’s where he has been as far as time on ice. If I had to guess, it’s b/c he doesn’t have the ability or he doesn’t have the hockey IQ to defend well on the PK (or at least be one of the 4 best on any team he’s played on). He probably doesn’t take away the lanes as well as Lappy does, nor does he seem to block shots as effectively. None of this is to suggest the guy won’t play like a man possessed out there, it’s just to say, on the teams he has played for, there have always been better options in front of him.
My guess is, Shelley has a career in the NHL b/c of his fists. If he didn’t fight, he’d probably be a career AHLer. But combine his fists, effort, attitude, and he has made a good career in the NHL. The guess as to why he would be sat in the playoffs is just speculation really. But judging on lineups in the playoffs this year, he’d probably be one of the guys who would be first choice for the press box. I’m sure he’d play some games, just not all of them.
What makes Lappy a penalty killer and Shelley not?
Maybe the fact that Lappy kills penalties and Shelley does not.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 6, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, I saw that. It’s hot and I’m cranky. Hence the short explanation.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 6, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d love to think that Shelley provides more than a pair of fists.
But I highly doubt that whatever “intimdation”, “toughness”, “grit”, etc. that he provides will make enough of a difference to be worth $1.1 million a year.
Then why is Ian Laperriere worth more than that for those same qualities?
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by Travis Hughes on Jul 6, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he blocks shots, kills penalties, plays solid defense, and at least has a slight chance of actually scoring a goal.
I’d argue that Shelley does all of that too, except for the killing penalties. Like I said, I’m going off of what Sharks and Rangers fans have to say about the guy, and it’s all good news. He’s a solid hockey player, not just a pair of fists.
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by Travis Hughes on Jul 6, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Honest question
I’m just curious of your opinion. If Shelley didn’t fight, do you think he’d make an NHL team?
Just because they don’t root for our team doesn’t make them any less knowledgeable about the sport than we are.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I know, I know, it’s unfair to paint with such broad strokes.
But earlier today I went over to Blueshirt Banter to see some posts on this subject and instantly lost 15 points of my IQ, it was that bad.
That’s more of a product of New York being such a heavily populated place. There are so many people that it may seem like there are more idiots there than elsewhere. But if you did a ratio of idiots to non-idiots in all major cities here in US and A, they’d probably all even out.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Try suggesting that maybe Kovalchuk isn’t the most wonderful complete inspirational leader ever to lace on a pair of skates over on In Lou We Trust. They’ll instantly confirn your IQ was in single digits before you dared to post troll there.
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Exactly
So Shelley is completely one-dimensional. Lappy actually plays two roles: hard-nosed ice time, AND penalty-killing. Frankly, I think the penalty-killing aspect is worth more than $60,000 a season – and that’s the difference between Shelley’s and Lappy’s contracts. I am with all the other people who have commented that the need for a fighter may not be past, but that the usefulness of a player whose SOLE job is fighting has definitely gone the way of the dinosaurs. Shelley may be a fabulous human being, but that really isn’t what we’re paying him to do. And looking at the plus-minus of a guy who plays 5 minutes a night seems silly. If he could score 15 goals a year in addition to protecting his fellow players, then I’d be happy paying him $1.1 million. BUT HE CAN’T.
Pfft, get out of here with your “logic” and “level-headedness.”
by ohnickels on Jul 6, 2010 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
haha, nice.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 6, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Good article. I know that Shelley is one of the good guys and one that doesn’t want nothing back for it. I can sympathize with everyone over his contract being a bit steep but….for the reasons mentioned above, I think Jody warrants at least a shot to show what he brings to the table.
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Shelley’s an expensive fighter, but he’s one of the few in the league that you can justify giving a regular shift on the ice. And the more I think about it, guys I would have previously thought were better options than Shelley—like Nodl and Kalinski—only make about $300K less than Shelley, so it’s not that big of a financial hit.
Shelley isn’t as talented as Asham, but is a little bit tougher in a scrap. And Shelley doesn’t seem prone to suspension-worthy antics as Carcillo. So maybe this will work out in the long run.
I don’t think anyone is complaining about his contract (or at least anyone is complaining anyone is contract that doesn’t complain about everything). 1.1M for a vet isn’t a large sum of money. The only complaint I really have is it is 1.1M you should have used elsewhere considering you still need to resign Carcillo and Powe, and are are going into the season with Leighton (who is still widely an unproven journeyman) and Boucher (who is still widely a proven journeyman who I still think wrenched his knees enough that be may never really play again <— total unsubstantiated opinion).
You get the same reaction to signing O’Donnell to a 1.3M contract at 39 years old when you can use your 5th and 6th D man spots for someone who can develop. O’Donnell would have been a good trade deadline pick up or camp invitee, not a first day free agent.
If they don’t sign them you are looking at 2.5M to play with instead of 500k
Um… EVERYONE is complaining about the contract. The contract is what makes this bad. It’s not an overpay if the veteran you sign is Selanne or Afinogenov. It IS an overpay if the “veteran” you sign has been getting healthy scratched a dozen games a year for each season for his 10 year career during which he’s averaged 0.09 points per game.
fair enough … I don’t complain about he dollar amount of the contract … but I would have to say anything more an a pair of manky timerlands is overpaying for Afinogenov
The dollar amount and length are all the contract is. What else is there to talk about?
Clearly you didn’t see Maxime play last year…
Yeah that’s only the same point output of Richards (62 pts) and Carter (61pts) last year, while playing in Atlanta.
by historywillbemade on Jul 6, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
On Atlanta Max gets 61 pts on a team where he has to play a system and has defensive responsibilities he gets 30 pts and is a minus -20. Despite his 61 pts he still was a -17. That is bad. Max sucks he brings all the same problems Kovy does and is 1/8th the player. There is a reason why nobody wanted to sign him and he signed for the minimum last year.
You don’t bring him here to shut down anyone, you bring him in to provide scoring depth on your 3rd line. For that, he’d be a perfect fit.
What are your stats based on for a defensive system by the way? Just curious?
For the forwards on his team, the ones that played regularly, Afinogenov actually played against the toughest competition last year in Atlanta (compared to the other forwards on the team). He also had a terrible plus/minus on a very bad team, outside of Antropov and Armstrong, everyone was pretty bad, but his was definitely horrible. Yet, that’s not why you bring him in, you bring him in for scoring depth, which he would provide. So why would you bring up his defense, when you would bring him in to provide scoring depth?
Also, the 2nd tier of free agency hasn’t started yet, and he is a part of that tier, hence why no one has signed him yet. The guys is what he is, and the Flyers good use scoring depth in my opinion. I don’t see the problem with that.
He is another guy who needs to play with the puck on his stick he is not a spot up and score guy and doesn’t not help this team at all. We need size and guys who can play without the puck. Afinogenov is neither of those things and would be a horrible addition. And he is horrible is his own end on top of all that. Trust me Afinogenov would be a step backwards, I rather had Eric Belanger or take Asham back before Max he would hurt us more than he helps, especially with the 3rd line minutes.
Afinogenov is most certainly a finisher, and is more than capable of playing with a set up man like Giroux. Did you watch him at all when he would kill the Flyers in Buffalo???
If Leino and Briere work together, then Afinogenov and Giroux can.
But this is opinion anyway. But I’m convinced you don’t watch enough of him play by your analysis. I’m not a big Max fan, I actually don’t care for him, but he most certainly fits the 3rd line depth scoring role if this team is still trying the whole 3 legitimate scoring lines strategy. He also doesn’t need a ton of time on the the puck and is very good coming off the half wall.
I’m not a fan of this lumping of people complaining about his contract into people that will complain about everything. When you consider what Asham made last year, and what Shelley signed for (Asham has better production, Shelley is true heavy weight, let’s say they cancel each other out in value) it’s a bad #, it just is. But I definitely agree , that Shelley isn’t really needed on this roster.
You get the same reaction to signing O’Donnell to a 1.3M contract at 39 years old when you can use your 5th and 6th D man spots for someone who can develop. O’Donnell would have been a good trade deadline pick up or camp invitee, not a first day free agent.
We tried that with Bartullis and Parent… and it cost us a cup.
by orangeandblack20 on Jul 7, 2010 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions
We lost the cup because A) Chicago was a very good team and B) Flyers goalies have historically been a corps that have opened their legs for more men to have a “He shoots he scores!” (In a Tim Saunders impression) moment than my ex-girlfriend.
He would have been a much better pickup at the deadline than offering him 1.3M and not letting a younger player earn the job.
I want to give him a chance. BUt that contract at his age with our cap situation make it unlikely I’ll ever fully embrace him. Even if he’s exactly as good as Lappy…we don’t need another Lappy. For all his great qualities, Lappy is slow-footed and with a scoring touch, much like reports on Shelley. Darroll Powe, on the other hand has speed, chemistry with Lappy and Betts, and a marginally better scoring touch (based on the numbers). He also kills penalties, and can’t cost too much more than Shelley. This simply doesn’t seem to be room on the roster for what Shelley brings.
agreed. I have nothing against the guy but we have no need for him on this team, especially for that amount, especially if it means we need to get rid of Gagne for a goalie, powe, and carcillo, which we could have done had Homer gotten a cheaper #5 defense-men (i am sure that meszaros will be good but 4million good?), not resigned leights, and avoided signing shelley.
by historywillbemade on Jul 6, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
I’m sure we’re going to love the guy. And I don’t think it’s fair to him to say that his contract sucks, therefore HE sucks.
If any of us were in his shoes, I don’t think we’d be saying, “Well, I’d love to play for the Stanley Cup Runners-Up but I’m going to put them in Salary Cap Hell if I sign there. No thanks.”
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
I don’t think anyone here is saying he should have, or is naive enough to even think that. I think most fans will like him, but there will be a split:
1) People who still feel true heavy weights are still needed in today’s game will love him.
2) People who feel today’s game has passed heavy weights by, and it’s more important to use that money to build depth in scoring, D, or goal will dislike him.
3) People in #2, but still appreciate his effort (probably my category) will like the guy, but wouldn’t be upset if he was ever waived.
Right. The answer to this question is objectively yes. A man took what the market offered to perform his job.
However, the standard we hold him to should take into account the money we are paying him in our cap climate. It surely does for Danny Briere; we can’t change our standards for Shelley just because he’s the Big Friendly Giant.
This is a good point though. Players that sign for small amounts (relatively speaking) rarely have their worth compared to their contract value/cap hit. Just b/c there aren’t big $$$ next to the dotted line doesn’t make it a good use of money. If you choose to analyze players versus their cap hit, then no player should be given a pass at being compared to their cap hit, even though that cap hit is a result of the market at the time of their signing and a GM’s decision.
Someone said it before me, but point in case:
Against the cap
Briere: $122,641.51 / point
Giroux: $17,482.26 / point
… and I’ll add insult to my own injury here … Shelley $80,555.56 / point
To be fair, entry level contracts should not be used as points of comparison, especially when only analyzing points; at least in my opinion.
meh … i meant to bring light to it being an entry level … forgot to …
Like I said, I didn’t make the initial comparison.
I know, that just always drives me nuts haha.
But a lot goes in to the contracts. Briere was signed to make a splash, to bring excitement back to Philadelphia hockey, and was the best contract of the big 3 that off season. Shelley is a depth role player, that, at the end of the day they don’t need. I don’t think there is a good way to quantify my argument that, I guess it’s more opinion than anything. Which is why I never get in to $‘s per point, b/c it doesn’t address the whole picture. And with the numbers, obviously Shelley’s contributions to a team won’t ever look good really.
But as a funny Afinogenov side note. He only cost roughly $13K per point last season.
Here's how I see it
This is all a huge conspiracy by Yahoo.com to have a player on the Flyers roster who other teams will hate, will take penalties and possibly suspensions all in the good name of allowing their writers to “mail home” any and all articles on the Flyers for the next 3 years.
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One thing you guys can count on, and everyone at The Cannon can vouch for me, Jody is a class act. Enjoy.
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Hell, that’s what I came in to say.
Jody may not be mistaken for Pavel Bure any time soon, but he is without a doubt one of the best men I have ever met. Don’t be surprised at all if he becomes the face of the team for a lot of the community service and outreach work – he’s got a real gift and passion for it.
There are a lot of people in Columbus still hoping that he’ll retire in the near future and come join the front office here. He made a huge impact in the community and is probably still the second most beloved player in town after Rick Nash.
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Wow he sounds pretty great. I think our rage should be redirected to Homer for signing him for that much, rather than Shelley for accepting the offer
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Honestly I think thats if you told Jody – when his career started – he had the chance to be the greatest hockey player to ever live, or the player he turned out to be he would absolutely want to be the guy he is today. He may only he a 4th line grinder/bully/goon (if you wanna use that term)/tough guy but we adore him in Columbus.
I agree with Matt in saying I hope he comes back to Columbus one day. He still has a house in the north part of town I think. He visited here all the time when he played for San Jose.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Jul 7, 2010 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Its because of guys like Probert that made him want to play the game. Not flashy – but tough
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by Andrew Tolliver on Jul 7, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Kids grow up wanting to play pro hockey — because they’re kids. Shelley isn’t a highly skilled player, so he adapted to a role that would allow him to fulfill his dream. When you’re growing up playing hockey, teams don’t have enforcers. Any type of fighting is a game misconduct, and nobody wants to sit out.
With Jody Shelley is that I don’t think he’s a player that is going to put the Flyers over the top. I think taking that 1.1 mil and using it to resign one of powe or carcillo would have been a better use of the money. The Flyers entered the off-season needing an upgrade on defense, goaltending, and on the wing. This move doesn’t address those needs. Unless Laperriere I don’t think this team needs Jody Shelley. Right now Shelley is a luxury the Flyers can’t afford especially not for three years.
The last time we had a pure intimidating fighter was Brashear. Cote was a punching bag, Lappy and Asham are more of the “turn the tide”fighters, and Carcillo is more off a cheap shot, agitator fighter. I love all those guys, except Cote, he can rot in the press box, but for the fist time since the lockout, we have a real, pure fighter on the team. And in the end, isn’t that what Flyers hockey is all about?
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
And we can’t do that with a good fighter on the team? So you can say, with a straight face, that players like Lappy and Asham and Brashear don’t deserve to hoist the cup.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
What are you talking about? You just went from Point A to Point 132. You can’t draw that line there between what we said, and your statement, neither of us are saying that at all.
Also, your 3 players you used as examples don’t even relate to each other that well.
I think our point is, in today’s NHL, a pure fighter is not needed to win a cup. At most it seems to be an occasional useful tool during the regular season. we aren’t saying they don’t deserve a chance to hoist the cup, but chances are, they will be watching the Cup Final game from the press box the way the NHL is progressing forward.
but for the fist time since the lockout, we have a real, pure fighter on the team. And in the end, isn’t that what Flyers hockey is all about?
according to the rest of the league maybe, but flyers are about trying to win the cup. the management always tries to put together a winner and has done so for much of the team’s existence
by historywillbemade on Jul 6, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Lappy kills penalties. Asham scores (occasionally). They are NOT good comparisons to Shelley or Brashear. Sure, a team that includes a fighter can (and has) win the Cup, but I don’t see the need on the Flyers. Sure, Cote lost more fights than not, and Carcillo, Asham, Lappy, etc would definitely be outfought by Boogard – but realistically, it isn’t about winning the fight. It’s about dropping the gloves for your teammates, win or lose. If anything, I have more respect for the willing combatants that KNOW they’re going to lose, but still stand up for their team.
100% agree
In a decade people in Pittsburgh will still remember the Carcillo Talbot fight as the moment that changed that series. Carcillo pummelled him, but it was his skate to the box with his finger to his lips that became an iconic moment.
Side note
Say we lose gagne, or we lose either Powe or Carcillo, what are the chances we can bring up either a Maroon or Legion to play next next season?
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
If you don’t have the cap space to sign Powe, you don’t have the cap space to bring either of them up.
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So there is no way we can have a full roster by next season without trading a big contract? Which means that, considering Giroux will need at least 4 mill, that we would still need to trade another big contract the following year? And lenio and jar will need contracts in two years, so it really comes down to Gagne this year, and most likely Briere after that. And, even though he’s my favorite defenseman on the team, Kimmo will most likely retire after his next contract in three years. So, assuming we lose Gagne, Danny, and Kimmo in three years, that would have a total of about 18 mill, give or take( I didn’t do the math), more then enough to sighn all three to new deals, assuming the max for giroux and jar is 5 mil and lentos is 3 mill
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Honestly
Out of my ass, but I’m assuming that’s his market value. I can’t see it being anywhere less then 3.5, or higher then 5
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I think moving Gange is a foregone conclusion at this point. That is 5M off you cap. Carter won’t command much more than his current cap hit. For Giroux, unless he really lights it up this year I’d think more along the lines of a short term 2.8M contract. Also he could be very good trade bait. Leino is a UFA so he could walk you don’t have to offer him anything.
Briere isn’t tradeable until 2013 when he contract goes down to $3M and in that case you can really only trade him to a Islanders type team that is “cheap” and has a lot of cap space.
..and even then Briere has a ntc, which makes him impossible to move to a crappy team. Let’s just hope that the move back to center will see Briere put up points like he did in the playoffs or when he was in Buffalo. I also hope that Carter adjusts to the wing b/c it appears he is going to be here for a while. Gagne is gone either this year or next so we might as well get some return for him and the cap space to give us a goalie that won’t let in terrible softies like Leights. I love gagne as a player but if we get Simmonds (trade from LA) and Nabby for gagne’s cap hit then I will take it and consider it a win
by historywillbemade on Jul 6, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
For Giroux, unless he really lights it up this year I’d think more along the lines of a short term 2.8M contract. Also he could be very good trade bait.
Just no.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 6, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Even when his salary goes down to $3 million, his cap hit is still $6.5 million. He’s not going anywhere
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
That is why I said a cheap team (someone who doesn’t spend money) who has a lot of cap space … like someone who fights to stay above the floor. That 3.5M differential could be the difference between a legal and illegal roster for certain teams. That being said as other have pointed out and i forgot to mention. He has a no movement clause so there is little chance for him to want to play for a team like that.
With the amount of playoff games available and the Flyers not always going deep into the
playoffs since the lock-out. I have been adding some other teams during the playoffs. The Sharks being one of them. The Sharks had been a very top heavy team (ice time wise) until this year. I always appreciated Shelley’s game. He is an energy guy, I was very disappointed when he ended up on the Rangers.
I don’t think this should be a Shelley issue. He only counts about 1/60th of the cap.
They have several highly paid players who didn’t produce during the regular season
(Briere & Hartnell come to mind 1st) that killed the cap years ago (see Umberger & Upshall).
He had never been counted on for offense (just like Betts isn’t). I think some people are upset that he played for the Rangers, but so did Betts & Johnsson and they were good additions.
Not being an insider there might be other issues, but I am most disappointed that bringing Asham isn’t even an option?
Living under the rule that it takes 10 positives to erase each negative Carcillo is so deep on my ledger he could never get a fair shake from me so if they swapped him for Shelley I am happy. I was ready for them to move Upshall, but the return just wasn’t close to equal.
I like Powe, but he really brings minimal offense also. Holmgren might be trying to economize by replacing Carcillo, Powe and Asham with Shelley. Talk about bad contracts (Boogaard).
Going to the finals the Flyers will have a bigger target on their back, Shelley might be insurance against teams running Pronger & Richards and incase Laperriere can’t make it back (he didn’t seem to be very effective at the end and there might be other issues that they have to wait to see how they play out). At a minimum it should help keep Cooke in line or he might finally get the beat downs he is due.
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jul 6, 2010 3:52 PM EDT reply actions
But why?
Just looking at Shelley’s mangled mug and punched in nose would scare the crap out of me, so I’ll give him that. It pretty much says, there is nothing anyone could do to this guy that hasn’t already been done. He should find his way out to Hollywood after he retires, as he should have no problem getting work when the call for thug types goes out.
However, let’s get to the actual meat of the question posed to him in the clip above:
“How does you fighting designated goon on the other team send a message to player X on the other bench?”
From all my years of playing and watching hockey I can tell you: it doesn’t. It’s a side show, pandering to the knucklebusting traditions of the game, but in the modern era, it just doesn’t do anything.
Shelley needs to be able to make an impact on the flow of the game when he’s on the ice, and I fully support him in his belief that he can make that type of impact, but his defense of fighting pretty much is just him saying: “It’s part of hockey.” Yeah, and so is losing teeth, but as we’ve seen with the modern generation of players who wear mouth pieces and visors, some traditions don’t make a lot of sense.
For guys like Jody Shelley, were it not for their ability to throw their fists around, there would be no place in the game for them. Guys like Bob Probert and for that matter Paul Holmgren were able to play the game of Hockey at a legitimate skill level, while still being able to throw the gloves down if the moment called for it.
I suppose that there will be a handful of times this season when some coach will put out a goon to take runs at Briere and Leino and Richards, and Lavvy will yell to Shelley, who will jump on the ice and we’ll see a fight and everyone will talk about how great it is to have a guy like Shelley on the roster. That will happen in maybe 1% of the games. For the other 99% we’ll be pining for days when we had Aaron “1 Move” Asham who was actually able to put the puck in the net on regular occasions. In fact we’ll be pining for the days when we had the highly effective Chico and the men line. We haven’t had a true heavyweight since the Flyers realized that Cote would never quite blossom into that guy, and how did it effect the team? 2 Games from a cup.
From some things I have heard he is a locker room leadership kind of guy off the ice. Look at the kinds of players we have with good quality hockey leadership ability on this team now. Richards, pronger, lappy, shelley, kimmo, etc. Two years ago we all saw the lack of discipline off the ice of the younger players. I think that with the development of our younger guys now, giroux jvr leino etc the work ethic and off ice behavior that these guys have will be influenced a lot by guys like shelley and pronger and lappy. The flyers are going to be one hell of a tough team to play against this year.
by bfrank27 on Jul 6, 2010 4:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don’t even have to bring in the salary issue to state that we already have plenty of leadership guys on the team. Shelley only makes sense if we really really need a guy to take on Colton Orr a couple of times a year.
As for off ice stuff, well Giroux was already busting his ass (you can find a vid of him doing off season workouts from a few years back on youtube if you look). The infamous guys who were doing the partying from some years ago include Richards and Carter, but I’ve not seen an pictures of JVR out and about with co-eds — maybe he got that out of his system at UNH.
Regardless, I’ve never 100% bought into the “partying is effecting the team” angle. The team was playing very well when that was going on, and the biggest knock to team morale was when they sent one of the young guns off in a salary dump move while we were cruising into the playoffs. That move put the team into a funk and downward spiral that they really only came out of in the playoffs this year. I think Pronger put it pretty well around mid season when he was quoted as stating that the guys on the team needed to learn to “play for each other”. I think they got there by the end of the season, but it will clearly be until next season when we see what the roster finally looks like and determine whether or not the new team gels.
The one absolute positive I saw was that Mike Richards finally matured into a legitimate captain this year, and I think that there will be a lot less nonsense this season. With Pronger I see there’s true respect there, and from Richards you can see that he realizes that you only have so many chances at a cup in your lifetime, and he has his priorities in line, and will be making sure that the rest of the team shares those priorities this year.
Gagne might be gone as long as you think.
If we trade him and he goes with another team. They more likely than not will not give him an extension. Being he’s an older guy with a past of recent injuries. It just wouldnt be smart. Therefore once Gagne finishes his contract out after this season, he could come back at a cheaper price.
We dont know what Homer and Gagne talked about. We dont know why Gagne waived his NTC. Honestly I think the first of it is, he’s such a good guy, that he is doing it for the good for the team. But secondly I believe there’s some kind of assurance there. That after this season the Flyers would make an effort to bring him back, although Gags would have to be willing to go more in the 2 mil range.
Some people might say he wouldnt come back because of hurt feelings. But I think Gagne is beyond those type of grudges. I know it sucks to be traded all of a sudden from the team you’ve spent your whole career with. But I dont think thats worth holding a grudge over and never returning to the team you actually want to play for just because of a grudge.
Maybe thats how some would be. but I dont think that’s how Gagne operates.
I honestly believe part of the reason Gagne waived his no trade clause is because he knows he’ll be back with the team, whether by his own decision or by something Holmgren told him.
But then again the crux of all of this is, would you really give up anything for Gagne if all you were expecting out of him was one season and you expected to release him at the end. You wouldnt. And we need a winger in return for Gagne, otherwise we are deficient offensively.
Unless we unload Gagne for basically nothing. And use the 5 mil to get a free agent/rfa winger, sign Powe (dont sign Carcillo), and get a goalie. Which is feasible. Considering Powe only will get what like under a million, nabby and turco will probably settle for 2 million, which leaves 2 million for a winger not named Dan Carcillo.
So maybe you can expect Gagne back quicker than you think after all.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 6:06 PM EDT reply actions
plus if we get a goalie, then we can try to move boosh’s contract or buy him out (which would still be a bit of cap hit i think) but not as much as his contract. so that would also buy some slight breathing room too
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course we should give him a chance. He’s our player for at least one year and as many as three. Like many here, I’d be happier if it were for less money per year, but things are as they are.
We’ll have plenty of time for complains and the “I-told-you so’s” later, if need be.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 6, 2010 6:11 PM EDT reply actions
is Guerin still available?
apparently he is in the 2 mil range, at least thats what i saw his salary listed at.
you move gagne’s 5 million sign guerin for 2 mil, sign nabby for 2 mil and sign powe for 1 million and you’re golden.
i think there’s other wingers other than guerin available too.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 6:13 PM EDT reply actions
But I hate Guerin
Seems like he’s one of those guys who always guts the Flyers, like Satan, but the rest of the time doesn’t do much.
Nabby is more like the 3.5-3million range. I’d rather get simmonds in the trade for gagne, sign nabby, resign powe and carcillo, say bye to cote and boosh
by historywillbemade on Jul 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me get this straight..
So this is the conversation:
Homer: Gags, listen mon ami, you and I both know that even at my advanced age I can still beat your sissy ass down any day, but with that said, it was pretty gutsy what you did with that boo boo on your footsie. And we seem to be like what? 2 games from the cup, and lookie at all the extra D I got off season. We are gonna be like favorites for the cup.
Gags: Oui!
Homer: So here’s the deal. Clarkie — I mean, I shouldn’t never have paid you so much money and now that we have this friggin cap, well i just have to come out and say it — you’re holding us back from the cup?
Gags: Huh?
Homer: Yeah you know, we need more wings.
Gags: But I yam number one wing in lineup no?
Homer: Yeah but your 5 mill cap hit hurts.
Gags: Oui, but I yam 100% for the team, and I have 11 years for Flyers and I will do anything for the team and the cup, even if I have to play with broken leg I go and score goals. Also I yam healthiest I have been in years, worked very hard, and I yam only 29 even though i play 11 years for team. Why I still talk much like I yam speaking french, I don’t know but I blame that assh*le gizmoitus who wrote down this crap, but still, point is I am heart and soul of team, and fans love me, I am class act and core of french canadien core of team, am I not?
Homer: all that is true Gags, but still I need you to wave your NTC so we can salary dump your ass somewhere.
Gags: Well when you put it like dat, how can I refuse this request?
Homer: Don’t worry Gags, next year when your ridiculous salary is down to where it needs to be, we’ll be lookikng at bringing you back, maybe for something just south of what we are paying Jody Shelley. Also you can talk with all the guys about their new Stanley cup rings they are wearing, and know that YOU were a huge part of that Gags. Sounds reasonable doesn’t it?
Gags: Of course it does, I yam waving NTC immediately.
well if your’e going to be an asshole about it.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
clearly you wouldnt go for it because you dont have Gagne’s character. fortunately you dont speak for him.
by the way you do terribly unrealistic conversations… maybe look into writing for a reality show?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 6, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s satire dude. Relax. Sorry if I hurt your feelings by making fun of the idea that the Flyers would dangle some future TBD role with the Flyers in years to come, to get the guy to let them jettison him, but that is terribly naive, not to mention something that the Players union and CBA etc. would take a pretty dim view of. Last I looked Simon is still a player.
I also don’t think that sticking up for himself and the contract the Flyers signed with him in the name of just doing whatever it is that management might want is any reflection on his character.
Since you don’t know me personally in the slightest nor I you, so I don’t see a call for the ad hominem attack either, although I’m not upset about it.
I would hope that the deal was based on sending Gags to a team with a legit chance at the playoffs, and not sending him to Phoenix at the trade deadline. The only people who know what’s going are Homer, Gags and his agent, and something tells me that there was a lot more of a plan laid out than “waive your NTC, we need to get some pieces and we can trade you for stuff”.
Probably.
All numbers from BehindtheNet
Shelley as a Ranger (45 games), Lappy with Flyers (82 games)
EST/TOI: Shelley = 6.65, Lappy = 9.54 -———→ Shelley played 3mins less per game
QualCOMP: Shelley = – 0.182, Lappy = 0.018 -—> against weaker competition
QualTEAM: S= – 0.044, L = 0.064 -——————> with weaker team-mates
Goals/60: S=0.32, L=0.23 -—————————→ scored more goals per 60mins
Pts/60: S= 1.43, L= 1.38 -——————————> and more points per 60 mins
GFON/60: S= 2.22, L=2.05 -—————————> had more goals scored for every 60mins he was on the ice
GAON/60: S= 1.43, L= 1.74 -————————→ and less goals against for every 60 mins
OZ%S: S= 58, L= 58.8 -——————————→ had almost identical offensive zone starts
Ptake/60: S= 2.1, L= 0.8 -——————————> took more penalties per 60
Pdraw/60: S= 1.1, L= 0.6 -—————————→ and drew more penalties per 60.
PDO: S= 1031, L= 995 -——————————→ Shelley’s high PDO means you can expect a decrease in performance.
Sorry for awful formatting, and I couldn’t find Corsi/Fenwick %
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
But he doesn't kill penalties
So doesn’t that pretty much make any useful comparison moot?
I'm not sure that he's worth 1.1mil
but I miss him as a Sharks fan and he’s pretty badass.
He’s funny. He kept up a blog on the Sharks site for some short period of time, and I remember when he said that he was trying to talk the rookies into take turns babysitting his kid. He’s actually a funny guy and a decent person. I could see him playing well with your guys over there.
He seems likeable, and will probably end up being everything you guys have been saying. For a while there’s been a consensus on what the team needed, and since he in no way fits into any of those plans, there’s bound to be a backlash. Hopefully he does some real good things for us on the ice next year.
Just curious...
Not saying that I would want this, but do you think if the fans couldn’t find the contracts of NHL players, we would accept this signing a little better? Granted, many bad contracts were signed before Shelley’s, but I don’t remember getting so upset before the salary cap about which grinders and enforcers the Flyers had.
Salary cap isn’t the only reason we don’t have a franchise goalie or second/third line scoring depth from the wings. The real reason is because the Flyers are consistently good, and would rather be competitive every year instead of stock up on high draft picks [cough Penguins, cough Blackhawks]. And when the Flyers do have picks, they prefer to trade them for an expensive veteran or player in their prime.
I’m not trying to suggest we should just forget about salaries, because it makes the hockey business fun for all of us. But I think it’s obvious that this knowledge has made us jump on a guy without giving him the benefit of the doubt. I guess what I’m trying to say is Travis may be right, blame ownership not Shelley for the current situation.
Well, seeing as people are complaining about how this will fuck up the Flyers’ ability to sign the young players they drafted next summer, I’m not sure this is entirely accurate. Yes, we often leverage the future for small windows; it’s not why the Jody Shelley signing is bad. The Jody Shelley signing is bad because every resource (number of contracts, money, roster space) becomes a valuable commodity.
Everyone is blaming the Flyers, not Shelley, for misuse of those commodities.
I agree with Snevik
But I also think there’s a reasonable concern that the Flyers organization hasn’t truly learned the lessons of the post Lindros era. For a long time they seemed to hold fast to their belief in attempting to build the biggest meanest team possible only to be embarrassed by teams that built a mix with smaller faster skill players on offense. This seems like a return to that thinking, and I thought they were finally past that.
Finally watched those fight clips
Shelley is one classy dude. He cold cocked Orr with a right on the chin, and Orr went down face first like a sack of potatoes, and Shelley, knowing he had hurt Orr, cradled his head and made sure he didn’t faceplant. Probably saved Orr 20 stitches, some lost teeth and a concussion.
I can see why folks from the Sharks liked the guy so much.
so what???
i’m sure shelly as great guy and all that but he’s not worth $1.1 million when the team is in cap space hell… also the metzaros deal is over the top… i’d have gone with o’donnel and gustaffson (who has a ton of talent) on the 3rd d line… trading gagne or carter to clear space for an overrated overpaid old goalie makes no sense either… i can’t believe wth the best defense in the league they need anything more than an ok netminder… the big hole is on RW for the first and third lines… unfortunatley addressing that creates other problems… don’t forget the strength of the first line creates opportunities for the second and thirds…
by Elmo the faithful fan on Jul 6, 2010 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
preaching to the choir
You just repeated what has already been said 20×. If you want, feel free to go back through my posts and find the ones where I said we didn’t need Jody Shelley for any reason. The 1.1 million goes without saying.
I think the point of this thread is — well we have him, there’s no magic do-over here, so let’s try and look for some positives.
I don’t know which overrated – overpaid goalie you’re referring to, but for me that’s a point where you will find yourself in a very slim minority, and even though I like Leighton and Boosh, even I can’t see the organization standing by and not doing something to get a legit #1 goalie for this team. Sure other teams have found that a goalie in their organization, or a number 2 outplayed the #1, and that has happened more than a few times in recent years, but that’s a lot different than having to play your SCF series with a guy you got off the waiver wire for a bag of peanuts. It might even be seen as irresponsible not to act on that.
And yeah we do need that right wing.
calm down
What would you pay him, 600,000K what is the league minimum salary. You guys sit here arguing over 500,000K for Shelly and maybe for Leighton in the end it is not that bad of a contract. Yeah is it more than what he should be getting probably but it is 500K more. All said and done the Flyers might have over spend 1.000 million so far this offseason. 1.000 million dollars. That is it. We are not talking about them over spending on Armstrong or Kotalik or Higgins guys he eat up 3-4 million dollars and can’t play. Is it really the end of the world, 1/60th of the cap is wasted next year what will we ever do. Fire everyone. If you want the Flyers to be bargain hunters trying to get the best possible deal for everyone we wouldn’t be the Flyers. We would be some shitty team who is too afraid to make a move.
Shelly is probably going to replace Carcillo. He brings the same thing to the table without all the baggage, cheap shots and stupid penalties. Plus he can fight with the best biggest and baddest and is a good locker room guy. We don’t want Lappy fighting anymore. He is too valuable and with the brain injury it is just not a good idea. Stop wasting time complaining over 1/60th of the salary cap and worrying about next year. There are plenty of ways to get under next season and the Flyers aren’t afraid to buy their way out if they have to.
Just for sake of argument, that $1mil gets another player on the roster, and is one less spot the Flyers have to fill moving forward (by the way, they still need to fill roster spots in case you weren’t aware). That’s the value of that money, and that’s why people complain.
Don’t bring that up. I got reamed out for saying it was funny to think about that Meszaros and Shelley could get you Paul Martin by Chris before b/c apparently I’m an idiot for finding that funny in a depressing way b/c Martin would never sign here.
Yeah man, it would suck to be paired with Kimmo or Pronger and play on a top D pairing that would never get scored on again.
Agreed. I often wonder if the people who don’t care about the cap, or find 500K here and there meaningless, have any fiscal responsibilities in life, or if they just spend all or more than they make. I’m pretty sure I’d like to take a trip to AC with Chris though. I’m pretty sure I could keep convincing him to just throw down another $20 on the table, b/c heck, look at all he has spent already it’s only $20 more…
I forget you had to sign the check for Shelly with you person money. It is 500K better deals on paper could have been signed yes. But much worse could also have been done. And Martin would not sign here to play on the 3rd pair nor would the Russian or Hamhuis hence the trade for Mezaros.
You’re satisfied with “Shelley is not that worst possible option”? I think we have a good team, but I also think the Shelley signing was bad. There’s latitude in between.
Also, the Paul Martin talk is assuming that he’d pair with Kimmo, and you’d have whoever (Cobie, probably) on the third pairing. It wouldn’t necessarily solve our third pairing problem—as we saw from Coburn’s performance there last year—but I’m not convinced Meszaros does, either.
As far as personal finance, draw the connection. Why would you back yourself into a corner with a limited budget if you don’t have to. The Cap is your budget, and it’s best to spend wisely in that budget. Sometimes there are times to be aggressive, when there is a game changer available or when you need to make a statement as a team (Briere signing), sometimes it’s best to be fiscally responsible. There was no need to rush in to signing Leighton, just like there is no need to rush out and buy the latest phone or gaming system that comes out. Wait until after the rush, until the market settles itself, and save some cash. And Shelley isn’t a key piece to the puzzle, he could be any player frankly. He is filling a fourth line spot, contributing to limited minutes. There are a ton of players that can fill that role, and for less. Now if they want to go the tough guy way, that’s fine, but that’s not going to bring them a cup, b/c your best players playing their best hockey will be necessary for that (plus some luck), so therefore, you could fill that spot with a less expensive option. That’s like buying a universal remote, you don’t need it, it doesn’t really do anything that is necessary that your other remotes won’t do, but you want it b/c it’s a neat luxury. Saves the money, and with that saved money you can fill two roster spots, as opposed to just one.
Who does that 1 million bring in Kovy might take 1 year at 1 million I remember. 1 million is a fair price for a 4th line guy. If Colby Armstrong gets 3 million Shelly at 1 million is fair.
That one million signs a roster spot. I didn’t say it was a top 2 line roster spot, it signs us Powe, or affords us the room to bring up one of the Phantoms. It gets us our roster spot in our depth lines. And if you consider what our 3rd and 4th line wingers cost us last year (Asham and Powe), $1.1mil (for 3 freakin years mind you) is a huge over pay for a 4th line guy getting 7 minutes per with no special teams time.
Man do you have any concept of what spots need to be filled on this team.
Really?????
So if that half a million makes us lose a player to waivers, would you still think it didn’t matter??
When you say the league minimum and how small the increase is, it’s also nearly double. So… not such a small amount when you say you could have signed TWO guys to league minimum contracts with the money you’re paying one Shelley.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 7, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
lol I was at prospect camp.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 8, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
i said it before and i’ll say it again… i like that we picked up jody shelley, we havent had a real enforcer who can play since, i dont know… the hammer? the Donald? (granted, the donald had a few productive years as a Flyer)
not true my friend, you might be a twerp but i wont let that bother me… the game hasnt changed all that much… players still need to be tough. and if we have enough skill and speed to match the opponents toughness… im not saying commit 1000 penalties because that’s Flyers hockey, hell no… but look at the facts, we’re had to play with a chip on our shoulder because we really haven’t had a brut like jody… look what the presence of Pronger has done, that guy is tough and so is Shelley. filling in role players is a key part of building a championship team, this is not a f*cking fantasy line-up…
How is “we played with a chip on our shoulder” a fact? Can you quantify shoulder chips?
Pronger has been a presence because he’s good. His toughness is only a manifestation of his greatness, not the cause.
Our players are tough. When filling the lower lines of our team, we should be looking for overall utility, not simply “toughness.” Lappy is defined by his toughness, but his utility increased by his penalty killing and adorably broken English. Powe, Carcillo, and Asham are examples of tough, unsigned role players with more utility than Shelley.
i take it you’ve watched some Flyers games in the past 3 years… don’t patronize me. The chip being stupid erroneous penalties by Hartnell, Car-gone, briere, carter, even richards takes some bad ones, coburn, ive seen timmo give a few bad hacks, carle as well, they’re all guilty and it’s a problem, yes we gave up tons of penalty minutes… all because this Flyers team (circa ‘07-’10) try to emulate the traditional Flyers teams with the tough persona, but aren’t bigger or stronger then anyone in the league… so in order to get the upper hand the Flyers have try intimidation by taking advantage of the “situations” and we are very much guilty of that (like hartnell purposely running into goalies) and we have been caught on several occasions. I agree the Flyers play very hard and lappy is great and all that, but Shelley will help the Flyers walk the walk and talk the talk
I don’t see adding Shelley keeping Hartnell or Briere, or really anyone else taking stupid penalties. Well, unless he threatens to kill them during practice. Most of those penalties occur b/c they aren’t thinking, or they let their emotion get the best of them. Well, really that’s my opinion. I don’t know if there is a way to prove those penalties are based on the lack of having a real tough guy, or just players being stupid in the moment/making a bad decision. Even if they improve this year, there is no real way to say it was b/c of Shelley, or if Lavy really cracked down on them, or b/c they had the off season to work with Lavy etc.
I know what you are saying, I disagree with it, and we both could be wrong, b/c it’s really just opinion.
I’d agreed with this. Briere is a bundle of stick fouls; Richie, Hartnell, and Carbomb are emotional and reactionary. Carter is just a big oaf (God love him) who doesn’t know how to disguise his illegal, ticky-tack plays. Defensemen take penalties regardless. Even theoretically, the only guys who takes penalties in the you’re describing, Fitzy, are Pronger and Lappy. The former is unlikely to change his modus operandi; the latter you may be correct on (Lappy certainly will not lead the team in fighting majors this year), but even then you’re replacing one man’s penalties with another’s.
Any impact Shelley’s physicality has on the Flyers and their opponents will not be evidenced in something as tangible as penalty minutes.
i dont care… Do you remember how the pens manhandled the Flyers? they had bigger/tougher forwards on the bottom two lines that produced points… briere swings his stick usually because he’s physically outmatched. yes its undisciplined… hartnell isnt really a tough guy, that line starts kickin ass when leino comes aboard, he is tough and strong on his skates and keeps possession of the pucks along the boards. that’s what guys like cooke and talbot did against us 2/3 years ago… so maybe shelley isnt the offensive answer or penalty killer, but you can rotate that guy in any line to gain some momentum and he takes care of the defensive responsibilities… if we add zherdev, you’ve got some scoring there.
Okay, so you changed your argument since you don’t care about what I said, even though I was trying to address your opinion…let me try to address your new stance…
If Cooke and Talbot forecheck us hard, that’s more on our D, than our forwards. But even so, let’s say we are down in a game, would you really want to take Leino off of the line, and replace them him with Shelley? I’m not really seeing how Talbot and Cooke relate to needing Shelley. If you need a goal, you aren’t going to play Shelley instead of a top 6 forward, and if you are defending a lead, Briere isn’t going to see as much ice time anyway.
And again Briere swings his stick. This is your opinion of course, but, yes I agree he gets his stick involved b/c he is too small to physically defend himself. HOWEVER, Shelley is not a human shield, you will not see Shelley jumping in the way when Cooke is lining up Briere for a hit. And Briere will still get hit, and do something stupid with his stick. Sure Shelley will try to fight Cooke a shift or two later, Cooke won’t engage, and he will continue to do what he gets paid to do.
End of the day, you like having a fighter, end of the day I don’t think it’s an integral part of having a championship team. Neither Cooke, nor Talbot are ever going to engaged Shelley. they are aggitators and effective forecheckers. I think he isn’t necessary, you do, that’s fine.
i retracted because you want a top 6 winger and i am happy with who we have, we’re arguing over two different positions, now with zherdev reportedly on the Flyers roster, you have your scorer… bottom line, we finally have a real tough guy who can win fights and crack skulls on the fourth line. lappy isnt going to fight anymore, he’s wearing a face shield next year for crying out loud… and he shouldnt fight, the man’s face was hamburger. shelley can play the same game as cooke potentially, whether he does or not is beyond me.
I never mentioned position…all I brought up was Shelley not effecting the penalties you were talking about in my opinion. That has nothing to do with top 6 or bottom 6 forward, I simply addressed how I felt Shelley would not effect the “Chip on their Shoulder” penalties.
I did want a depth scorer, but I never brought that up in this particular discussion, so I’m still confused as to why you changed subjects.
As far as Shelley maybe playing the same role as Cooke…well you should never pay for maybes in my opinion.
And fighters. Frankly I’m fine with not having one. With is the crux of the argument. I was just disagreeing with Shelley having any impact on stupid penalties. I can’t change your opinion on needing a fighter, just address his potential impact and have the discussion with you about it.
I agree $500K is alot of money for anyone except the guy writing the checks, with his main goal of winning the cup again. Shelley was signed to replace Cote, Carcillo & Asham with the thought that Lappy isn’t getting any younger and no one is 100% sure if he will bounce back. If he can’t it should be Shelley with Betts & Powe.
The $500K is only an issue becuase they are so top heavy with big contracts killing the cap. If Hartnell & Briere are past their regular season funk the offense should be better. Richards, Kimmo & Pronger won’t have the olympics so they should be fresher.
I think the bigger issue was the trade for Mesz, that killed the cap cushion, but they probably know more about him than us.
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jul 7, 2010 11:57 AM EDT reply actions
All true.
I actually think Meszaros is a great acquisition – he’s the puck-moving defenseman that will replace Timonen in 2013 (when Kimmo’s contract is up, and he’ll be 38 years old). I do see your point about Lappy being perhaps less likely to drop the gloves after the bashing his face took this season, but I’d much rather have Carcillo at $1.1 million than Shelley – purely for the potential scoring that Carbomb provides. That was Homer’s decision, and I guess he figured that Carcillo was a lost cause. Same with Asham; some minimal scoring ability that still greatly outshines Shelley’s. Sure, they both get their asses kicked in a fight with a real heavyweight – but they still try! And win or lose, its the “try” that is most important in the end.
Having DirecTV I am forced to watch most of the other teams broadcasts. The quality varies (some of the ex-players carry a chip against the Flyers and can’t say anything positive), but the good ones always seem to comment that most of the Flyers penalties come from them not skating as well as the opposition. That gets them out of position and then they revert to the pre-lockout style. With a full camp they should be in better shape and take fewer of those lazy penalties.
Having watched the Flyers for 28+ years I have noticted that they rarely had the most skilled guys, they usually won by wearing the other teams down, which starts by being physical on the boards (Pronger, Richards, Leclaire, Brind’Amour) come to mind. Lupal had some of that, Hartnell can when he wants to and Shelley will.
Until they teach Asham, Hartnell and JVR to camp out in front of the net the team will struggle to score goals. Knuble was a journeymen until he got some playing time and earned the big contracts following the example Kerr established many years ago.
by McCrimmonMellanbyBrind'AmourUmburger on Jul 9, 2010 8:43 AM EDT reply actions
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| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
New Jersey
|
82 | 48 | 27 | 7 | 103 |
|
Pittsburgh
|
82 | 47 | 28 | 7 | 101 |
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Philadelphia
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82 | 41 | 35 | 6 | 88 |
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82 | 38 | 33 | 11 | 87 |
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82 | 34 | 37 | 11 | 79 |
(updated 4.12.2010 at 9:21 AM EDT)
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