Flyers Officially Sign Nikolai Zherdev to One-Year Deal
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:11 PM EDT
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PrintIt was announced today that the Flyers have signed Nikolai Zherdev to a one-year contract. Unfortunately, no financial terms were released. CSNPhilly's Sarah Baicker is reporting that it's a $2 million deal.
There isn't much to say about Zherdev that Travis didn't already say on Wednesday, but the Flyers are definitely banking on him to live up to his potential. The former 4th overall pick has two 25-goal seasons in the NHL already, and a career 0.65 points per game ratio isn't bad to add to the team.
But where does this leave Simon Gagne? With this signing, the Flyers are over the cap and have until the end of training camp to get back under. The question becomes how much space do they need to clear and who is the guy who goes.
Still, this news is no surprise as the story broke a few days ago. Officially, Nikolai Zherdev is the newest member of the Philadelphia Flyers.
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This whole situation is strange… first the delays, and now no money information. The Flyers themselves never release financial terms but when there’s a signing like this, there’s always someone who has the salary details. Maybe they’re not telling anyone they don’t have to tell, hoping it won’t fully kill any leverage they might have in a Gagne trade…? The number’s gotta get out there sooner or later though.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I still think that Carter will be traded. He’s more valuable, a center when we already have four others and does not have a no trade clause. Gagne still has yet to waive his NTC, costs more than Carter and is 5 years older.
This is the new/current account of RyanGiggs11
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
He’s agreed to waive it hasn’t he?
"Can Geico really save you 15% or more on your car insurance? Is Mike Green really a forward in defenseman's clothing"
Panaccio says Gagne waived/agreed he would waive for Los Angeles. That’s all we know.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Then he denied it on French TV.
This is the new/current account of RyanGiggs11
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Jul 9, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, what we heard from Flyers beat writers subsequently is that he said he hadn’t waived anything yet, but they said that he agreed to potentially waive it and that it was an issue of semantics.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
csnphilly.com
according to csn, gagne said he hasn’t and WON’T waive his NTC
Good for him.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
This. I don’t know why a player is looked at as a bad guy for not waiving an NTC…in most cases the player is basically seen as a dick for not wanting to bail out the GM…fortunately in Philly no one wants him to leave but I know a lot of people in Toronto were pissed when Kaberle repeatedly told their GM to fist off.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
So they could potentially waive him, which is looking more and more like a possibility considering Holmgren seems willing to kill any leverage he has is a potential trade
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Eklund (I know it’s Eklund) is reporting it’s worth 2 million
"Can Geico really save you 15% or more on your car insurance? Is Mike Green really a forward in defenseman's clothing"
That would be a steal.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Do you think Eklund just comepltele, uninformed, ridiculous shots in the dark now? Everyone assumes he’s a fraud all the time, why not just say “fuck sources,” break out your Jump To Conclusions mat, and take a big ole leap of faith. Worst case scenario, you’re wrong and people don’t care. best case scenario, you’re a fucking prophet.
Wow, he was actually right. Blind squirrel, right? haha
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 9, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The strange part is that Eklund actually has connections inside the Flyers. He did a video series on the Flyers’ website with Bill Clement a few years ago.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Gahhh! I remember that! He & Julie drove around Danny Briere & another player in a van and asked them questions. Keith Jones had a segment in it too. It was on CN8 a couple of times. I forget the name
"Can Geico really save you 15% or more on your car insurance? Is Mike Green really a forward in defenseman's clothing"
Oh yeah, and that one where Giroux drives around in his Honda with a giant inflatable dinosaur in the backseat while Eklund interviews him.
totally awkward. theres a small clip of that on the flyers youtube channel. it was like flyersbuzz tv and clement used to sit with them and watch video clips of games and ask them what they were thinking when they did certain stuff. and it also had that driving with eklund segment. but i guess that got replaced with the orange line last season?
haha, good job.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i'd like to thank my brother for texting me so quick
and my mom and dad for giving me a brother
They never do.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Panaccio is at a movie because he’s hungover after being at a hospital party last night and Carchidi is at ShopRite (I’m not kidding). They’re very busy people.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I’m in the wrong damn line of work, I swear.
P.S. OT, but Cliff Lee traded to the Rangers.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
I love me some Clifton Phifer and miss him terribly. Who went the other way?
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Smoak and somebody else. Better than anything we got, unfortunately.
"Tortorella’s got it all wrong ... Gaborik shouldn’t be messing with our skilled player." -Peter Luukko
Smoak who is struggling a bit as a rookie in the ML’s this year and 3 pretty good prospects. So essentially the Mariners got 1 great prospect and 3 good prospects from Texas for essentially half a year of Lee where as we got 3 ok prospects for what at the time was a year and a half of Lee. Ruben just got worked without even doing anything.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
That’s good, I was afraid he was going to the Yankees… glad he isn’t with them.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 9, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, there is actually a defensive highlight in that. Shocking.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 9, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Love the NIN soundtrack to it as well. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 9, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
great signing for anything south of 3MM. This guy instantly becomes arguably the most skilled Flyer’s offensive player.
Managing Editor - HockeyOutsiders.com
Briere?
The cap situation is bizarre.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Assuming Zherdev and $2M, the Flyers are $2.359M over the cap, without allowing for the bonus cushion. I have to think the team does not want to use any bonus cushion this year.
Here’s the roster, per Capgeek (note that the bottom line here includes the bonus cushion):
FORWARDS
Daniel Briere — $6,500,000
Mike Richards — $5,750,000
Simon Gagne — $5,250,000
Jeff Carter — $5,000,000
Scott Hartnell — $4,200,000
* Nik Zherdev — $2,000,000
James Van Riemsdyk ($637,500) $1,654,167
Ian Laperriere — $1,166,667
Jody Shelley — $1,100,000
Claude Giroux — $821,667
Ville Leino — $800,000
Blair Betts — $700,000
Riley Cote — $550,000
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen — $6,333,333
Chris Pronger — $4,921,429
Andrej Meszaros — $4,000,000
Matt Carle — $3,437,500
Braydon Coburn — $3,200,000
Sean O’Donnell ($300,000) $1,300,000
Oskars Bartulis — $600,000
GOALTENDERS
Michael Leighton — $1,550,000
Brian Boucher — $925,000
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER SIZE 22
SALARY CAP $59,400,000
PAYROLL $61,759,762
BONUSES $937,500
CAP SPACE $-1,422,262
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Thought you were saying, “make the argument”.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Personally
I’d rather nix either coburn or meszaros and have the extra 3 or 4 mill
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
What about keeping van Riemsdyk in the minors for a year to help him develop better … ya know … like they should have last year. That would put them back under the cap for now. He and Cote to the minors and bobs your uncle you have a comeplete roster
Probably too late to send him down to the minors at this point. Would zap the confidence right out of him, and that could screw him up for a long time.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Sadly I think you are right. I will admit that I think MarioD was right. The Flyers should have given JvR another season in the AHL. Despite having a good start to the season, I am really disappointed with JvR so far. Maybe my expectations for him were too high or maybe he is still adjusting. Its hard to explain but he just seems to lack what it takes. Maybe I am jumping the gun. The kid is only 21 and 15 goals and 20 assists isn’t bad for a rookie.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 11, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that is great for a rookie playing 13 mins a game (1.24 PP).
Fun fact: JVR’s shooting % this season was the same a Powe at 8.7%. His PDO was 989, so I think we should see an increase in goals
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Ya, I think you are right. Stat-wise he had a decent year for a third line rookie getting 13 mins a game.
But, does anyone else get the feeling that he just isn’t going to live up to the hype/expectation that comes with being a #2 overall draft pick?
I have nothing “concrete” to back up that notion, just a feeling . . . sure hope I am wrong.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 12, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I know what you’re saying. He isn’t your typical #2 overall and it might take him awhile, which will likely hamper people’s opinions of him even if he ever does live up to the hype.
I mean, if it takes him 3 NHL seasons to even become a 70-point guy, when (if) he starts scoring 90, will he already be run out of town?
With him, he likely has to make people like his work ethic before they like his production. Based off last year, that might be difficult to do.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 12, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, I think you nailed it right on the head. JvR, eventually, could be a 70 to 90 point guy but because he comes with the #2 Overall draft pick label, if it takes him 3 years to get there, I very well could see him getting run out of town as a bust.
I was throwing around the idea of what the Flyers could get for him in a trade. Its such a hard call to make though. If he is a bust, to pawn him off now and yield a favorable return could really help the Flyers but he just hasn’t played enough to justify taking such a risk on such a big prospect.
Hopefully going to the Stanley Cup Finals as a rookie really gives him the insight into what it takes to be a star in the league. Hopefully this will improve his work ethic. But, you can’t bank on that at this point unfortunately.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 12, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s still around. He posted again when the front office was in talks with Nabokov to come to Philly.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 12, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
ah damn … I actually stopped coming here for months because he was attacking me after I called Briere a center and that is contract is choking the team from a cap perceptive even though I like the guy as a player … … … … … …
Well, as you already know then, he is passionate about his beliefs and woe to anyone who chooses to have different ones. :)
He was quite reasonable with his discussions on Nabby – I’ll see if I can find them.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 12, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Comments here
http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/6/26/1539205/homer-smartly-plays-it-safe-flyers#comments
They are most of the way down the page.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 12, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, he’s gone. So stick around.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 12, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Like “for-good” gone?
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 12, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 12, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, thats kinda a bummer. When he wasn’t making personal attacks on anyone and everyone, he had some good things to say, was really well informed and I really appreciated the amount of research he did in backing up his opinions (or should I say arguments).
If he could have just admitted he was wrong now and then and didn’t resort to calling everyone an idiot . . .
Blasphemy, I know. ;)
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 12, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
If he could have just admitted he was wrong now and then and didn’t resort to calling everyone an idiot . . .
That was my main gripe with him. Never admitting he was wrong really made the times he was right less memorable.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Oh absolutely. Even when I knew he was right, I disagreed with him just out of spite. I refused to converse with him just because I knew how frustrated and annoyed I would get.
Oh man, the battles of back and forth between Geoff and Mario were friggen’ EPIC! Holy wow! haha
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 12, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, I’d rather not remember those battles. Not my best moments.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 12, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe not your best, but certainly pretty good. I have to say, those battles made me feel more welcome here.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Between the 3 of you, it was extremely entertaining. All three of you do such a great job at supporting and articulating your arguments. I know I felt like an expert after reading through those battles, even if they were all narrowly condensed on the right side of the thread haha.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 12, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still remember when you called him a troll on his own board. It was the first time I ever realized that to be true.
Ah, good times.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 12, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
…and I never got to say goodbye.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
I’m pretty sure I quoted you in the epic ban message though, so there’s that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 12, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll keep the ban message amongst us four, but we just finally had enough of his disrespect.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 13, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Well … honestly the Flyers haven’t really been keen on developing players; at least since I have been paying attention. Outside of Carter, Richards, and Gagne they really never let someone develop well and shipping them off before they had a real chance. Boucher, Patrick Sharp, Václav Prospil as well as other I can’t think of atm. They always seem to be a team that want to trade the potential for the sure thing and surround that with free agents.
Zherdev’s deal is worth $2 million for one year.
That’s an excellent deal.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Hey, Panaccio says the Flyers need to bring in another Russian onto the NHL roster to keep Zherdev company…
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
She is certain. She better not be yanking our chain. If I find out its for more, I am gonna be pissed.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 9, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This makes the Maszaros trade and Shelley signing all the more maddening. We couldve kept Gagne, signed a cheaper fifth d-man, and re-signed carcillo or powe
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Gagne would be gone no matter what!
If Homer didnt plan to re sign him once his contract is up he was going to go no matter what.
Shelley is not the keystone in all of this
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
So now we just ignore the last year of contracts? Why wasn’t Asham traded last off-season then?
Jody Shelley and Andrej Meszaros are in fact keystones in this.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I 100% believe Homer made a decision about some of the upcoming RFA and UFAs before all of this
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
Meaning?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Homer is exciting a plan he already decided upon.
“Its not like Homer got shelly and then said oh fuck now what do I do????
I got it, I will simply get rid of Gagne”
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
I want to believe that, but all this stuff is coming out of left field. He expected the goaltending market to play out completely differently than it did, so because he had already signed Leighton (and had no more cap room for a goalie) he figured he should upgrade the defense instead.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I believe that’s exactly what he did. Well, that or the equally stupid:
“I got Shelley, Meszaros and Zherdev while giving up a second round pick, now I’m $1.4 million over the cap. I have to trade somebody, the whole league knows it, and my return in said trade is drastically reduced.”
Even if it’s a plan, it’s a terrible plan that leaves him looking just as – if not more – dumb than if he hadn’t had one.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Geoff and I agree.
My question last night (perhaps inappropriately in the Lappy thread):
Are we dealing with the Jekyll-Homer or the Hyde-Homer?
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
I am not happy with the way everything is going and Im not going to defend Homers actions.
This whole off season is screwy for so manny GMs ad players.
No one expected this
Things are obviously not going to his plan
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
What is his plan? And how is it so screwy? The list of defensemen he could have acquired instead of Meszaros is frustratingly long, and not only wouldn’t have meant giving up a second round pick, it would have meant saving the required money to afford Zherdev.
Not only that, but he shouldn’t have signed Leighton the day before free agency, he overpaid for Shelley, and he just dropped Gagne’s trade value. All of that are independent actions not resulting from the market. It either shows a disregard for the market, refusing to see what the market is, or outbidding it. All three are extreme failures.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Geoff, again, you and I agree.
It is the inability to see things in context.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
haha, I’m glad.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There is one thing I’ve read that has me thinking. Geoff maybe you can find evidence to counter this thought I’ve been having. While it seems like the goalie market dropped, it seems the veteran 4th line market was as bad as the D market this year. Shelly is an example of this. I’ve read Asham is looking for a 2 yr deal in the 2+ mil range, not to mention what Boogard got. It looks like the teams with cap space, rather than getting the prime name players were bidding each other up for the “character” guys. Am I way off base here, or is there some logic to what I’ve been thinking.
I’ll also add I don’t like the deal and think it was a bad one for the Flyers, but like the Briere deal, when compared to the market this year (and perhaps going forward) this might not be such a bad contract when examined compared to the market and not the team situation. In the team situation I agree 100% it was a bad idea.
Eric Boulton went for $650k, one year; Scott Nichol $760k for one year; Ted Purcell one year, $750k; Vladimir Sobotka, $750k, one year…
Veteran 4th line guy is all about what you want. I’d rather Nodl be the 4th line winger personally, but just because somebody asks for $2 million doesn’t mean he’s getting it (see Nabokov, Evgeni). Plus, Glen Sather is an idiot.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I knew you’d find some good examples that I couldn’t with my internet problems. It seems like there were some similar guys to be had on one yr. deals. Like you said it depends on what you want, so we overpaid by about 350k. I need to see what Shelly does but he needs to put up some points or PK for what his salary is in order for me to rate this as a positive deal.
The only two fourth-line guys I found that got more than one-year deals were… Boogard and Shelley. The only two fourth-line guys to get more than $800k per year were… Boogard and Shelley.
I don’t care if I’ll like Shelley or not, Holmgren made a bad signing based on what the market was. And like you said, Shelley will have to put up points or PK time in order for me to not think Holmgren got played.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 11, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
As always just the info I was looking for, thanks. I agree 100% with this, and was just trying to debunk some theories that were out there. Shelley has some work to win me over now like I said above, but that has been done before. For Homer this one counts as a strike against (which likely turns to 2 since I know I won’t agree with most of the options he has to get out of his current hole.
haha, agreed. I didn’t like the Carcillo trade, but I did eventually like Carcillo. Now, I just complain about the 2nd round pick that was sent along.
Shelley can become a favorite of mine, but it’s unlikely I’ll say he deserves his contract, which isn’t on him.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 11, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
If this is the case (which I agree with you) then Shelly isnt the Keystone, Homer is!
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
haha, well there we’re in agreement. I’d totally write a story about this if I could stop from just ranting.
I’ve been meaning to write one for SBN Philly but haven’t figured out how to make a coherent and rational point.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m trying to be zen about this now. I ranted in an email to my friends; now I’m back to “this is what we got, as fans we can’t control it, go Flyers.”
The initial frenzy is over, and we know the totality of the moves this offseason was poor quality. What do we do now? Rationalize. Go Flyers.
haha, you rationalize, I rant.
Go Flyers.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec’d for complete truth and impressive conciseness.
This sums up everything really well . . .
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 9, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you. You are exactly right. Seeing as we are “only” $2.359M over the cap according to CapGeek that $1.1M to Shelley and $4M to Meszaros makes a huge difference.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 9, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Scratch that. We are only $1.4M over the Cap. Still makes a difference.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 9, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
There are only 4 defensemen in the entire NHL who signed contracts for more than $4mil per year this offseason. Homer goes and trades a second-round pick for a guy making that much.
Corner, painted.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think he used finger paint to sign the contracts? He seems like that kind of guy.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
color by numbers
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless he painted a door in said corner…
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
It better be a Leighton’s five hole-sized door.
by Snevik on Jul 9, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
haha, +1
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
He still could’ve kept him for this year
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
yes he could have
but he apparently made the decision not to.
and I dont think he came to that decision after we picked up Shelly
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
Just because he made that decision before picking up Shelley doesn’t make it right
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, and Im not defending Homer.
Im just saying I think he set this in motion a while ago and Shelly is not to blame
Even if I dont fully like him as an addition to the team
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
When people “blame Shelley”, they’re not blaming Jody. They’re blaming his contract, and in effect, Holmgren.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m more annoyed with the Meszaros trade, honestly. The Flyers seriously overpaid for a defenseman they don’t really need. A 2 mil guy on the third pair is fine with me. An NHL quality d-man on the fifth pair is probably enough.
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I would call it trading for the wrong guy at the wrong time? The actual payment for Meszaros was a 2nd rounder, which was excellent. As opposed to, say, trading a first rounder for Eminger and his good contract (in that, even as a mistake, it didn’t cost them much on the cap).
Check out FGSB’s newest post. I agree: Homer is an excellent mover of players. But someone needs to revoke his checkbook when it comes to signing guys.
I still say Meszaros for a 2nd is stupid. Why give up a draft pick when you’re already short on them during free agency?! Hell, why not sign Zybnek Michalek for $4 mil (as Pittsburgh did) and keep your pick? Or Henrik Tallinder for $3.375mil. Or Dennis Seidenberg for $3.25mil. Or…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
All I’m saying is that paying a 2nd rounder for Meszaros is a good price. I’m trying to be context-retarded here, liker Homer.
It’s not a good transaction price, but it’s a great objective price.
Again, in a vacuum, sure.
But that’s the fifth straight year the Flyers have traded their second round pick after two straight years of not having a first round pick. Why keep trading them? And why trade it on July 1st when there are a ton of solid defensemen available for the same if not less – and way less – money?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he thought the entire free agency market would pan out differently than it did. That’s the only thing I can think of. He expected all those guys to go for more money than they did, and he was willing to pay to acquire a guy whom he could guarantee would be on his team next year.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Certainly that’s what he thought, but even that doesn’t explain why he did it two hours before the market opened.
He figures you generally pay an inflated salary to sign someone through free agency. And he figures it’s risky to assume the available D-men would be willing to play #5 minutes (especially since Hamhuis had already burned him because of that). So he basically trades a second round pick to ensure he gets a guy who, while overpaid like a free agent, will be willing to play whatever number of minutes.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Was there a risk that the Meszaros trade was coming off the table? That contract was recognized as an overpayment from basically the minute TBL signed it. I can’t imagine teams were knocking down the door for him. If GMPH had just waited an hour to talk to Michalek or … then maybe you keep the second and save money on the cap, and if it’s Michalek actually get a better player. Sure, maybe Michalek wanted to be penciled into the top 4, but GMPH didn’t even wait around to find out.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Exactly. And if he failed, is Mark Eaton really a bad guy to pencil in as your #5? Kurtis Foster? Toni Lydman? Derek Morris? Jordan Leopold?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Lydman or Tallinder would have been amazing. I actually think both are probably better than Meszaros, but I might just be biased against Meszaros. But at the end of the day, you needed a D that could play 10-12 a night, not a 15+ minute guy like Meszaros (getting paid like an 18+ guy). Eaton could work on your team, Foster, O’Donnell was a great pick up. Shit, Kubina took 3.8 for two years as a replacement for Meszaros.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
I think there was a timetable imposed by Tampa. They would sell him off at that price only before noon, so they can use that money to look for a replacement on their own.
Then GMPH got played by Steve Yzerman. I guess maybe there’s no shame in that, but GMPH should know better. Who puts a timeline on a salary dump at a time when they have zero leverage? I admire the balls of it, but it’s not exactly a logical position.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
It’s a salary dump, but Meszaros probably would have gotten about that much, had he been available this summer on the open market. Homer paid the price because he wanted that certainty of the terms.
Meszaros is also the youngest of the bunch at 24 years old with the most upside. Compared to all those guys you listed.
Even still, the Flyers were looking for a #5 defenseman. Meszaros is the third highest paid D-man on the Flyers. He’s not the right fit, he’s overpaid, and Homer could have gotten a cheaper, just as good d-man 2 hours later without giving up a pick.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Always supposing those players were interested in playing for Philly, of course. As UFAs they get to pick & choose. Especially D-men this year. I think Lou overpaid for Tallinder, BTW.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
I’ll bet anything that one of those guys would have taken the same money to play in Philly.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
haha, i see your distinction but would love to hear an answer to mantis’ question.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It did not have to happen this way.
Let Gagne play this year, let him walk UFA and use the $$$ for Giroux,Leino, etc.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
2 Million… I was thinking it would be around this. I am happy with the amount he got. So now one of the 5 Million dollar men (Carter or Gagne) are probably going to be shipped out somehow to make cap space. I don’t know how much we have now but we may still yet sign somebody else.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 9, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering the Flyers are now roughly $1.4 million over the cap, someone needs to go.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Know what adds up to $1.4mil? Jody Shelley plus Riley Cote.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
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by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
$1.65 million, but either way $0 doesn’t get you a 12th forward.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Certainly. Holmgren just parked himself into a corner.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, assuming Gagne or Carter goes, and Carcillo comes back, then you’ve got 13 forwards and some cap space.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
Right, but now that they’re over the cap, teams know he has to move somebody, hence the return just got lower.
So again, why make this signing now?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Homer is an idiot?
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Ding ding ding!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
What do I win?
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Sadly, nothing.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
A no-trade clause.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I want a no movement clause too…just for extra super secret protection.
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
You only get a NMC if you take a raise.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Fine, but only 25% a year, plus I want bonuses…15K per game, not started, but per game that I am on the active roster.
Oh, and mid way through the year if a media report comes out that I am banging a team mates wife, I want 100K and for you to pay for a fairly attractive hooker so I can parade her throughout town to prove that I don’t need to bang a team mates wife, I have, said hooker. Can you do that for me?
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Done and done. I’ll give you a seven year deal. …Wait, are you by any chance a former alcoholic, a player who has been cited as not caring or being lazy, or for any other reason someone who needs a “second chance”? Because if that’s the case I’ll offer a twelve year deal.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
a player who has been cited as not caring or being lazy,
Zherdev? Kovalchuk?
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
Yes and I also have a problem with carrying a piece around in public, and I may or may not found other illegal activities involving the training and fighting of certain 4 legged animals…got anything for me>
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
Oh. In that case, you’re in the wrong league. Try the Eagles. If that doesn’t work, try the Wizards. Surely they’ll be interested in giving you some work for a few million dollars.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
But….but….but the no trade clause?
Looking forward to the Kevin Kolb era.
5-8-10...the day the Purdue Boilermakers basketball team won the 2011 NCAA Championship!!
The what?
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Because Homer does everything preemptively?
Either something is already on the table, they waive useless pieces, or we get rammed in the butt.
The problem is that there are no useless pieces that get us under the cap. Even if you replace Shelley and Cote with Nodl and Maroon, you’re only saving ~$300k.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah. I said elsewhere that I didn’t understand the signing, for the reasons you just mentioned.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
I like the signing. I think Zherdev for one year at $2 mil is a great deal. But why sign him to go over the cap? That makes no sense.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Zherdev is great as an individual move. But individual moves are not entirely relevant in a salary cap environment.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
Exactly.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Zherdev is the opposite of the kind of player that PHI just relied on to get to the Cup. I just don’t think it makes sense. I just can’t see how Shelley + Zherdev > Gagne. If those guys force out a better player, who has been huge for PHI in the playoffs throughout his career, what’s the point? Sure, for a team that needed to add cheap scoring on the wing the move can make sense, but that wasn’t PHI’s situation until about a week and a half ago.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Zherdev is the opposite of the kind of player that PHI just relied on to get to the Cup.
Ding ding ding!
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
Then you’re using your bonus cusion, though. And I have to think JVR at least hits his bonus numbers? And it leaves no room for callups in case of injury, etc.
Going to have to be Gagne or Carter, which will leave room for Carcillo plus some space for callups, etc.
I don’t get why the team wants to get rid of Gagne, though.
"You want to start being part of the Rink? Fine, but more’s expected of you than John/Jane Cap Fan. Carry the cause of informed discussion to the unwashed masses and don’t crap in the yards of other SBN sites if you decide to go over there. They’re passionate about their teams too, no need to troll elsewhere and/or be a sore winner." --BP
If the team is $1.4 million over, why do they need to move $5 million in cap space?
But yeah, we agree in the fact that the team (Homer) is creating a problem for themselves to solve.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Well who else would make sense to move? Hartnell? Kimmo?
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why this signing is so…completely… part of a trend.
Holmgren makes moves and then says “now where does that put us? Crap. What now?”
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is a shame, because we should be celebrating this signing. It’s that good. Instead, we’re wondering how things look when they come out the other end.
That’s right. Homer moves are like eating cheap mexican.
haha, you sir, are entirely correct.
This is a great signing in a vacuum. But nobody lives there.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s how I’ve seen PHI for a few years now. Sure, some of the moves pan out, but you always seem to be scrambling, and all the while your farm is wilting. You always have the “we just won the East” thing, but I don’t see the need for all the moving parts in the off-season.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Because Holmgren doesn’t think ahead. Ever.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
we do always do a lot, but if it didn’t work, then i would complain. the flyers are always competing. we can’t say “what if we kept all these players” and we don’t have to because we are always in it. and one could argue that our farm is wilting because our young core is already in place, on the flyers. of course the next generation isn’t set on the phantoms and really it shouldn’t be yet. the caps have a great farm team because of your years before ’07 where you would finish very low…i think?…
Who is this young core in place?
Since 2004, these are the Flyers top-3 round draft picks:
- Rob Bellamy
- Steve Downie
- Oskars Bartulis
- Claude Giroux
- Andreas Nodl
- Mike Ratchuk
- Denis Bodrov
- Jon Matsumoto
- James van Riemsdyk
- Kevin Marshall
- Garrett Klotz
- Luca Sbisa
- Marc-Andre Bourdon
- Jacob De Serres
- Adam Morrison
- Simon Bertilsson
- Michael Chaput
Bartulis, Giroux, and van Riemsdyk are the only players “in place”.
How many of those prospects are the core of the Phantoms? Nodl, Marshall, Bourdon.
How many were traded away? Downie, Ratchuk, Matsumoto, Sbisa
How many are failures? Bellamy, Klotz, De Serres, Morrison
How many do we have no idea about? Bodrov, Bertilsson, Chaput.
A) Only twice in 6 years have the Flyers had a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick.
B) They’ve traded away four of their better prospects
C) They failed on four of them (counting Morrison)
D) And they’ve succeeded on anywhere from 2 to 5.
They’re “young core” is Richards, Carter, GIroux, and van Riemsdyk. Whoop-de-do. The Flyers have shown an inability to develop a farm system and/or draft well. Every year there should be a crop stepping up. If you want to say last year should have been the time 2006 picks entered the NHL, where were Nodl, Ratchuk, Bodrov, Matsumoto, Lehtivuori, and Kovar (all selected in the first 4 rounds)?
Not enough time? What about 2005: Downie, Bartulis, Duchesne? The fact is that the Flyers don’t have a “young core” that came up through the system, so that’s not an excuse for why the Phantoms were so bad last year. They don’t have a young core, they have 2 players drafted 7 years ago (Richie and Carts), and only 2 players drafted since then. It’s entirely on management for the failure of the AHL club, either through poor drafting, neglecting the team (trading away picks), or trading away the “young core”.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
so all teams(nhl) have a core that is in place long term right now better than the flyers? and if we can’t draft or develop a farm system, and obviously that’s what you’re saying, then how could you complain about all the moves we make? because they are necessary. of course i’d rather have cheaper development from within but it is how it is. not saying that it should be that way, but that’s how the flyers work right now. and above i wasn’t trying to insinuate that the flyers core came from the phantoms, but i should have said because all our managements focus is on the flyers(who have a core) they don’t create a new one behind them(for whatever stupid reason)
Yeah, I didn’t think you were saying that. I thought you were asking if that’s what happened.
And what I’m saying is that you’re right, the Flyers management focuses on the NHL club and the expense of the AHL club because they don’t have anybody in the AHL. But why is that? Because Holmgren trades away 2nd round picks like they’re nothing. And then he goes and drafts Rob Bellamy, Garrett Klotz, Steve Downie, Jacob De Serres, and Adam Morrison with what few first-3 round picks he has. How many grinders, tough guys, and goalies can you draft in the first three rounds?
My point is that even when you know the team has no farm system, Homer goes out and trades a 2nd round pick two hours before free agency begins. On July 1st, why do you have to sacrifice building a system to acquire an overpriced defenseman?
He’s neglecting the AHL club.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t have a problem with them drafting as many goalies as they can. You can always sign or trade for scoring depth, or defensive depth. As we’ve seen, it’s never straightforward to get top-notch goaltending.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
No, I don’t either. But drafting a goalie in the 3rd round back-to-back years isn’t exactly the best way to go about it. And since it’s never straightforward to get goaltending – I entirely agree – why waste a high-round pick (that you have so few of) on a risk?
Eriksson was a 7th round pick, Riopel a 5th. Why use a third round pick on Morrison the year after drafting De Serres and Eriksson, only to draft Riopel two rounds later? That’s four goalies in 6 consecutive picks. I’m not saying I wouldn’t rather have Eriksson and Riopel (I most certainly would), but when your farm team is as bad as it is, you draft 4 goalies out of 6 players taken?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I hadn’t realized those picks came so close together. My personal preference is to draft a goalie in the 3-5 every year. Just one per draft, in the mid-rounds. First round goalies are too much of a risk to be a good use of the pick. Of course, Varlamov was a 1 and Neuvirth was the very next pick we had in the 2 (last time the Caps did that: Kolzig-Dafoe). That’s turning out alright, but also means there is absolutely no need to take a goalie in the 1 or 2 for the foreseeable future.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Yeah, the Flyers got burned with high round picks far too many times. And using a third isn’t a problem, it’s back-to-back thirds as part of a 4 in 6 span that gets me.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The core that is in place is playing at a very high level in the NHL.
Carter
Richards
JVR
Giroux
Coburn
Meszaros
Bartulis
Carle
Zerhdev
Are all 25 years of age or younger.
The Flyers don’t care about winning in the AHL it is the farm team. That are not going to keep guys they could use to get NHL players or guys who demand NHL contracts that aren’t worthy of a roster spot because it makes the Phantoms better. The Flyers aren’t old.
How many of those guys were drafted by the Flyers? Five. Only three of them have been drafted in the last 6 years.
Whether the Flyers core is young or not wasn’t the issue. Phinally brought up the possibility that the Phantoms are so terrible because the good players graduated, which simply isn’t the case. The Phantoms are terrible because the Flyers either drafted horribly, traded away their draft picks, or traded away the players they drafted.
Plus, winning in the AHL is never the issue. But having a terrible minor league team is indicative of the parent club’s ability to draft and develop players. In a salary cap world, how do you get buy without a pipeline of prospects?
When we looked at cost per point, the way to succeed in the salary cap world is to have players on entry-level deals performing. If they Flyers don’t have anybody on an entry-level deal, how can they succeed? Hell, even Kalinski, Nodl, Legein, Klotz, and Maroon will be off their EL deals after this season, and those are the only players capable of playing in the NHL this year.
Having a shitty minor league team is a major issue.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
And look at the contract status of some of the core guys named above. Giroux and Carter are FA after this season. (So is Leino, and I’m not sure how he fits in this discussion, but he’s performed so it seems you’d want to keep him.) JVR is FA the year after. It’s clear that either Gagne or Carter, or both, won’t be back after this season at least.
Also, Downie finally had a good year. Maybe PHI should have been more patient with him? I admire that GMPH is willing to make moves, but it seems like he makes moves just to make moves sometimes. Not to rub salt in the wound, but wouldn’t PHI be better off with John Carlson, Upshall, and Downie instead of Carle and Carcillo?
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
haha, you and me are on the same page here, even if this is a different discussion.
I don’t know how to be more plain about why it’s important to keep draft picks, draft well, and develop them in the AHL. The players cost less, period. And when they’re contracts expire, they get hefty raises meaning you need more low-cost guys to take their spot. If you have a poor farm team, you wind up paying Jody Shelley and Dan Carcillo over $1 million each because Andreas Nodl and Pat Maroon aren’t ready to play yet.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. My point was more of an extension of the “core” argument. You have the core right now, but as soon as next year (really, if Carter goes, this year) you could see some of the important members of this core being gone. The Caps are going to lose Semin, but we have more guys that will be ready to step in. At least that’s the hope.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Hartnell, Briere, Carter, Carle, Coburn, Meszaros, or a combination of players.
But with a $1.4 mil overage, you don’t need to clear $5 mil. That’s all.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, moving Carle over Gagne could make a lot of sense. He had a hell of a year, but Pronger does that to people on his pairing.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I still think people are over estimating Gagne’s worth to the team. It’s either he leaves this year or next year, and quite honestly, with another concussion his career is done. Why not trade him now again?
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 9, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
But it seems as though they’re struggling to come to a deal for Gagne. I’d rather move Carle for something than Gagne for nothing.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
See I’m the opposite…a young defensemen I’d like to keep around. An aging winger with injury issues and a high cap hit I’d rather just trade for picks. It’s either he leaves this year or takes a pay cut for next year. If you’re risking the 2nd one, then if he doesn’t take a pay cut he leaves for niothing
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 9, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Why does he have to leave this year or next year? Even assuming he has the most value in a trade, what’s his value now that the Flyers NEED to shed salary? Why trade a winger when you have too many centers? Why trade your top line LW to sign 3rd/4th line wingers? Why trade for Meszaros knowing you’ll have to trade a forward when you can just sign Foster for half the cap hit and no pick?
This whole offseason has me wanting Holmgren fired. It was really difficult for him to eff this offseason up, and he’s well on his way to doing it anyway.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s got 1 year left on his deal. I don’t have faith in players to take the hometown discount
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 9, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Here goes:
Why trade a winger when you have too many centers?
Because Jeff Carter is the best player in the history of the game.
Why trade your top line LW to sign 3rd/4th line wingers?
Because Jody Shelley brings a physical presence to the (regular season) lineup, something we definitely haven’t had for the last 35+ years.
Why trade for Meszaros knowing you’ll have to trade a forward when you can just sign Foster for half the cap hit and no pick?
We really like Meszaros. That everyone else in the league doesn’t like him… I don’t understand. I saw an hour long highlight reel on the NHL Network the other day from the playoffs a few years ago and Meszaros totally scored a goal.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
by Ben Feldman on Jul 9, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
haha, very nice.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
didn’t quite say any of that
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 9, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, that was supposed to be Homer’s response to Geoff’s questions, not yours.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
ok groovy
Preaching the Inglewood Jack
by CoburnsCuddleBuddy on Jul 9, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont mind the shelley signing still.
but the leighton signing and signing up for 4 mil to Meszo really effed things up. Thats. 5.55 mil that didnt need to happen. Just sign Foster and Turco/Nabby instead and you’re done and you can keep Gagne and Carter and Powe with everything’s that already happened to this point.
Meszo better be pretty awesome when plays here. thats all i have to say.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That everyone else in the league doesn’t like him…
Not quite everyone else…apparently GMPH likes him. Presumably Ed Snider does too, unless anyone thinks anything Flyer-related is done without his approval?
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
Say goodbye to somebody, most likely Gagne
by mantis toboggan on Jul 9, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
We should just take bartulis $6000 off, seeing as how he’ll be sent to the minors before oct 7
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Need a 7th d-man
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
But do you use that 7th damn to be your healthy scratch. Or use use bartulis, who can play wing and d, and drop cotes bum ass
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Bartulis can play wing?
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
He did in the Olympics.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Gagne + Meszos for Simmonds?
The kings are maybe (?) interested in Gagne and they want defense. They have the cap room, and Gagne’s salary expires after next season, so his number i would think would come down a bit.
It would clear 9 mil in cap room you get the winger to replace Gags. and you’ve got cap room to sign Turco and Zerdev and Powe and Simmonds, and have plenty of room to spare.
2 mil + 2 mil + 700,000 + 800,000. Hell they could even keep Carcillo (ugh).
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:30 PM EDT reply actions
Every time I see simmonds
I die a little inside
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
well it would come down with gags after next season probably as oppose to kovy who’d be locked into 9 mil. and that’d be for two players, a forward and a defender, not just one whiny sniper
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, LA wouldn’t pay 4 mill for a position they don’t need
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Not for 4 mill though. And who says they need defense? They have two top ten guys, 3 good solid 2nd liners, and 3 very capable prospects.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
maybe you are a kings fan and you just dont know it?
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
didn’t we give up a 2nd rounder to Tampa for Meszaros, so Gagne and a 2nd for Simmonds?? I don’t the kid is worth that
well they aint giving us simmonds for just gagne.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I was actually thinking of posting this earlier. This makes the most sense if we were to trade Gagne.
However, “bleed” knows that I’d prefer to trade Carter and Meszaros and maybe Leighton and Carcillo for Brown and Bernier. Or some variant.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
yeh well that’d be nice, but i dont think that’s happening. the kings are very unlikely to move brown or a goalie.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
im throwin out simmonds, because apparently gagne said he would waive it for LA, and LA is in the rumor mill.
sorry for trying to figure a way out of this.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:34 PM EDT reply actions
BuT
Simmonds is just as good as gagne, so they would take 9 mill, for an older sniper, a defenseman that they don’t need, for a 20+ goal scorer that’s cheaper and will last longer. If LA did that, and I was a fan, I’d burn down the staple center.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
it was my understanding they want defense. And i think they were interested in Gagne being a veteran with playoff experience and all.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
im just throwing ideas out there dude. i dont know.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Your over advertising gagne though. I want to keep him here only because he’s been my favorite player since ‘99. But the reality is that both brown and simmonds are both, at this stage, better then gagne. At it’s best, it’s a wash out in goals, with an older player, and an extra 4 million dollars in a defenseman they don’t need.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
well thats great your a gagne fan, but it seems like the flyers are dead set on keeping Carter, so its bye bye gags somehow
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
im a gagne fan too, but the odds of him staying instead of Carter seem very unlikely.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I know, I understand, and I also come to the conclusion that, even if he stays this year, that he won’t get resigned. I understand that he will probably get traded, but you have to have realistic expectations for when he does get traded. Think along the lines of a 1st or 2nd rounder, and a Upper level prospect.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I'm with Geoff on Homer: it is my professional opinion that Homer is flailing
I drafted a long rant here. Which I won’t post. I’ll just say, I teach strategy and I don’t like this incrementalist thinking. That’s ok for us fans. Not for an NHL GM.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
you teach strategy
you gotta remember, then, that our amount of knowledge is significantly less than Homer’s when it comes to the market or who’s available or what offers we’re getting or what information we’re getting from his agents.
As Sun Tsu would argue, our lack of information compared to Homer’s puts us at a significant disadvantage when trying to gauge the quality of his moves.
Wrong strategy theorist
Strategy is a “pattern of actions” that you can see in context over time (Andrews 1971).
We see how Homer is using his resources by observing his moves in retrospect. The key move to understand Homer’s strategy is the signing of Leighton. I think it was ToddtheFox who posted a fanpost prior to July 1 about UFA goalies vs. number of teams available. Thus, even us unknowledgeable fans (and I am certainly one of those) understood the basic supply and demand issues. Homer jumped the gun. Clearly.
Another “pattern” move is the Carcillo trade, laughable now. Had we had that 2nd rounder, maybe we could have signed an RFA. For example.
So we see that Homer is an incrementalist. While Quinn (1980) might like that, most strategy stars (like Porter, Barney, Prahalad, Hamel, and many others I could cite) would find it odd.
And I am out on this, or I have to charge you. :/
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
Strategy is a "pattern of actions" that you can see in context over time (Andrews 1971).
If this is true how do his actions over time result in this year’s appearance in the Finals? Is it that the dominos all fell Philly’s way?
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jul 9, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it that the dominos all fell Philly’s way?
Yes. Yes it is.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Really? Love to hear your thoughts on predestination, free will, et cetera some time.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
again
that’s all well and good — in a vacuum, i’m sure he does fit the mold pointed out int he literature (for the record, being someone who has studied leadership in democracy extensively, I can tell you that the vast majority of the literature is complete garbage, as is most social science literature (I’m a budding social scientist myself)).
You’re using the fundamental assumption that things like fan posts or counting teams etc is equal to knowledge. It’s not. It’s what we think is knowledge. If what fans “knew” were taken as fact, you’d never see the Flyers grab a guy like Claude Giroux or Ville Leino — both of those guys “sucked” when we first acquired them. It’s not necessarily our fault — everything we had at the time (stats, measurables, maybe even some scouting video and qualitative analysis by other fans) pointed at them not being the best decision.
But GMs have a wider scope in their disposal. It’s not the wrong strategy theorist — there is absolutely a fog of war that only full knowledge can disperse. We don’t know what every team is thinking, we don’t have the wherewithal to actually follow other teams. Sure, we can count the number of teams that need a new goalie one day, and then Jarsolav Halak is traded the next, and Vokoun rumors abound, and etc. The point is, trying to predict the hockey market is akin to predicting any market — pointless, because it’s almost random.
We can be completely confident that Zherdev is going for ~$4m, and then he goes for $2m. The best fan assumptions (from puckdaddy and other links I was given when asked about where another fan got his Zherdev @$4m number) are often completely different from what actually happens. The reason is very simple — many fans voice opinions, and a consensus that is an average of many opinions emerges as what is best for a team, based on perhaps a quarter of the information at the hands of the GM.
To relate to Sun Tsu, the soldiers in the fracas may think a terrain is wide open for the taking, and what’s more the ridges above it look like they could offer great cover from enemy fire. But the general, on top of a hill separate from the smoke of War & Peace like battle, can tell that there’re enemy soldiers already on the ridge, and that the area that seems like it is most heavily covered with enemy troops is actually just one or two guys firing at random.
Which is to say, we may think we have every bit of knowledge necessary to make rash decisions, but we don’t. We have a very small fraction of the information at Homer’s disposal, and as such, we are significantly more likely to make short-sighted decisions (as long as those decisions aren’t “trade vets for picks/prospect,” I suppose.
And I disagree that the Carcillo trade was laughable, We needed that $$ to allow Giroux and Briere to play in the NHL. Again, we don’t know the whole picture, and judging someone (even in this case from retrospect, when retrospect is not accurate for at least a year or two) from a vantage point of ignorance is inaccurate, no matter what author you look at.
by Alon on Jul 9, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed 100%. Rec’d.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
given that social science literature is crap
are there social science journals where people can use War and Peace to help describe how little we know about the decisions the NHL’s Homer must make, ostensibly on our behalf???
I like this signing.
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Broad Street Hockey - SBN's Philadelphia Flyers blog. 2010 Eastern Conference Champions.
like the signing too
but homer is all over the place.
he’s 50/50 it seems as a GM. I love some of the moves, I hate others.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
that's silly
to say he’s 50/50. He’s way better than 50/50. Just cause we like or don’t like a move doesn’t make it an objectively good or bad move.
I like this signing too. I don’t like this signing when it puts the Flyers over the cap.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 9, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Frolov
what about Frolov??? to inigmatic personalities… who would you rather have?
jaccoo
It is said that Russians need to be with other Russians. So unless Homer’s a complete idiot—oh wait.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
hmmmmm. wonder how Ritchie would feel about taking on a foreign language.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
It is said that Russians need to be with other Russians.
I’ve noticed a lot of GMs and fans saying some other things about Russian hockey players in the NHL as well.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jul 9, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather zherdev over frolov
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
6 of 1 to me.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jul 9, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
well I think most people can agree to this thinking. A bombshell will be dropped sometime in the near future. Whether it pertains to Gagne or Carter or what have you. Something is going to go down soon.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
Or not. Homer could totally just go on vacation for the next month and a half, and wait until the last day of training camp to do anything.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
but you are still agreeing that it will happen.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
Of course. The Flyers are now $1.5 million over the cap. That’s not a sum you can erase by simply getting rid of spare parts (Bartulis, Cote). Something has to happen to a major player on this team.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Especially if that mythical goalie upgrade is ever going to happen.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Does Turco count as an upgrade?
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
lol, i wanted to say that too.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
Normally I’d say no, but you guys are rocking Boucher/Leighton right now so I guess anyone that’s actually an NHL starter is an upgrade.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
haha your combo isn’t too hot either
If you mean Varlamov and Neuvirth for a combined salary of $1,643,334 and a combined cap hit of $1,530,000 for the 2010-2011 season I have to say I’d take F and B’s combo.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jul 9, 2010 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i didnt say that ours was better, did i? haha not at all. but i was just making a point, his isn’t that good either. trust me, i watched every caps game last year cause i go to school down there and i wouldn’t be comfortable if i were them(although a lot more comfortable than us).
Yeah, the idea of an unproven rookie winning is outlandish. Of course people are going to continue to knock the Caps’ goalies, but they are both highly talented bluechip prospects that have been successful in their limited NHL time. I’d rather go into the season with 2 players that could be legitimate NHL starters than two guys that definitely are not.
Not many teams really do have great goaltending. That’s kinda what last season proved. I’d much rather have the two unproven kids than have to pay “proven” Luongo’s salary. There are not a lot of goalies in the NHL that I’d prefer to our kid-tandem, when considering contract.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Maybe Homer is already on vacation and Carcillo is just pissed off so he took his Blackberry and is wreaking havoc.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Carcillo's been busy lately.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
by Ben Feldman on Jul 9, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This one's my favorite one, actually.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
by Ben Feldman on Jul 9, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lol both of those are hilarious.
Well if Carcillo is making these moves he has to be an amazing actor because he has fooled all of us into thinking he’s Homer.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 9, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The only non-bombshell move that would neither get him squat in a trade nor negatively ignite the fan base (which, to Comcast, is $$$) would be to trade Meszakos for whatever he could get. But unless someone really wants a $4M d-man, that would mean he would have to admit error.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
we’re semifucked because we’re not going to get enough if we move gagne and im terrified we’re gonna get too little if we try to move Carter. there’s no inbetween.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions
Chicago has done pretty well trading players when everyone knows they were over the cap.
I dont like the situation but I still think we will get a good deal for him
Too many clubs would like to have him
Unfortunately I think this might drag out until early August
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
Chicago has done well because the people who run Atlanta are idiots.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
They did pretty well with Versteeg as well. And now a First and a Third for Hjalmarsson if they don’t match the contract. I don’t even think they can afford to so that’s more picks going their way.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
unless you find a team desperate for defense and you can trade meszo to for a pick (like the lightning did to us), and then give 2 mil to turco and 2 mil to zerdhev and keep carter and gagne,
of course your defensive upgrade in that case is only sean odonnell (who i like) but he’s more of a 6th guy, not a 5th guy. but then again your goalie is better.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:50 PM EDT reply actions
So homer get a guy that will dominate with giroux and jvr, something we all wanted, for lots less then what we expected, and people are bashing the guy???
What did I miss?
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
It puts PHI over the cap.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
It will probably cost a LW for Mike. Unless our first line is going to be Mike-Carter-….
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Carter-Richards-Powe, assuming Gagne is moved for cap space allowing us to sign zerdev, turco and powe. we dont really have room for anything else.
unless we trade Gagne for a really cheap winger somehow.
or we move fucking Meszos contract
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
We won’t sign turco, that’s for sure
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
says who? you move gagne and you’ve the room.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
He blows, and we gave leighton starting goalie money. That’s why we won’t sign him. We need to have cap during the season just in case. Players can get hurt, or we need to make a trade, or both.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
turco does not blow, you’re in the minority on that one.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
M pretty sure the majority of people do not want turco, who at best is as good as bosh or leighton
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
i’m also pretty sure alot of ppl shudder at the thought of leight as the starter going into the season. I think Turco is better and atleast then we’d have two capable goalies that could fight it out for starting position. i just don’t see boosh saving us if leights experiment fails
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
When is 1.5 million starting goalie money. That is backup money over 3 million is starter money see Halak. Nitty got 2 because he is Nitty.
When is 1.5 million starting goalie money.
You could have Varlamov and Neuvirth for a combined salary of $1,643,334 (and a combined cap hit of $1,530,000) for the 2010-2011 season.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
When the Flyers signed Ray Emery to be their starter at $1.5 million last year.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
that was a low risk gamble that the flyers took and was probably the lowest amount spent on goalie by any nhl team. i don’t think it’s indicative of that being starter money. now it might be starter money given no goalie signed for more than 2 million
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
now it might be starter money given no goalie signed for more than 2 million
That’s my point. Couple what they gave Ray Emery to start with the market this year, and the Flyers paid Leighton starter money.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Ray Emery was a russian exile his price was cheap because of where he was coming from and it was a 1 year deal. If you played as good as Leighton taking the team to SCF and didn’t have an injury issues he would be getting more than Nitty and would arguable have been the best goalie available on the market. Same thing for Zherdev if he plays well he will get much more than 2million next year.
Purely hypothetical.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 11, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m totally pumped about the signings, especially Zherdev. The next move should be interesting. Again I think everyone should take to yoga or something and chill. This organization has always sought out a winning team. Hopefully it’s works out.
My fear is that he will become toxic to the club instead of a boost. Nikki Z can be a force of good but got that ability to be a force of evil…so if he behaves and plays hard, then I have no prob with Z.
Like I mentioned, now its all about the waiting game and seeing who is shipped out and for what, if anything really. Probably will end up trying to get Turco…::shrugging of the shoulders::.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
im not worried about that. if the kid is coming back to the nhl for half of what he got before. he clearly misses the nhl and is going try harder to stay.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
hope so. Needed to mature a bit and get his head out of his ass. This might be a good sign.
Philadelphia Flyers/Columbus Blue Jackets...don't ask me how.
If it was up to me, I'd free Charles Manson... -MRH
plus i dont give any credit to the Rangers organization, especially this past decade. I consider the Flyers a much more premiere organization over the years than the Rangers. I trust the Flyers will handle this kid.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a one year deal, isn’t it? He should be wanting to prove himself. We hope.
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jul 9, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a plan trade Gagne, waive boosh and cote. sign powe, carcillo, and turco here’s what I came up with using capgeek. i even had upper salary figures for Turco 2 million, Carcillo 1.3 million, Powe 700k
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers
PLAYER BONUS CAP HIT
FORWARDS
Daniel Briere — $6,500,000
Mike Richards — $5,750,000
Jeff Carter — $5,000,000
Scott Hartnell — $4,200,000
Nikolai Zherdev — $2,000,000
James Van Riemsdyk ($637,500) $1,654,167
- Daniel Carcillo — $1,300,000
Ian Laperriere — $1,166,667
Jody Shelley — $1,100,000
Claude Giroux — $821,667
Ville Leino — $800,000 - Darroll Powe — $700,000
Blair Betts — $700,000
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen — $6,333,333
Chris Pronger — $4,921,429
Andrej Meszaros — $4,000,000
Matt Carle — $3,437,500
Braydon Coburn — $3,200,000
Sean O’Donnell ($300,000) $1,300,000
Oskars Bartulis — $600,000
GOALTENDERS - Marty Turco — $2,000,000
Michael Leighton — $1,550,000
BUYOUTS
NONE
LOST VIA REENTRY WAIVERS
NONE
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER SIZE 22
SALARY CAP $59,400,000
PAYROLL $59,034,762
BONUSES $937,500
CAP SPACE $1,302,738
even have cap room to spare.
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:01 PM EDT reply actions
obviously
the crux is moving gagne. once that happens you can sign turco, zerdhev and powe.
again you’re probably left with powe on the first line if zerdhev is goin to play with giroux, but thats where we’re at.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
lines would be something like
Carter-Richards- Carcillo (i know ppl don’t like Danny on top line but he plays well with Ritchie)
Hartnell-Leino-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Zherdev
Lappy-Betts-Shelley/Powe
Pronger-carle
kimo-coburn
meszaros-odonnell
Turco
Leighton
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
it is but i was thinking along the lines of the max he likely get, ditto with powe, and even Turco
just making sure it would work under cap if they are overpaid
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
NOOOOOO CARCILLO ON THE FIRST LINE
I WILL KILL HOMER
put powe there. waive carcillo’s ass for the cap space.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
if i see carcillo on the first line with carter and richards i will be sick to my stomach everytime i watch. At least Powe has speed and can distract for Richards and Gagne.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
or maybe zherdev plays 1st line and jvr and giroux are left with powe/ carcillo
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
id prefer to give Giroux a weapon and see what he does with it.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed and i don’t know about richards and zherdev on a line, wouldn’t mesh well
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t carcillo score most of his goals on the first line with Richards and gagne. I’d rather powe because he brings more to the table, but I wouldn’t mind carcillo there.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
im over carcillo. im just over it. i think powe would be an upgrade.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly carcillo has some chemistry with richards, i don’t know if zherdev or powe would have same chemistry
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
ehhh, from one season? chemistry? lets see what powe can do before we settle on carcillo.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I remember powe sucking ass with that first line last year, but I’d still rather powe.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
fair enough, i just think of Carcillo as a first line, with Richards and Carter, and i shudder.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember pretty much the whole team doing that for long stretches last year. For some really bad patches they were all doing it at the same time too.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
we need the extra winger and i don’t know how they walk away from carcillo. is it possible since they made an offer already and if not carcillo who is your extra forward. i’d rather carcillo than shelley play
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
my point is we already spent 1.1 millino on shelley, he better play regular. its bad enough we gave him 1.1 million.
if we give carcillo 1.3 million and we have 2.4 million to shelley and carcillo im gonna be sick.
to me its one or the other. and obviously we’re keeping shelley since we just signed him.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
keep nodl as your excess offenseman or something, at least he’s cheap.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m just trying to think like homer but i doubt homer does anything about the goalie situation, he will likely settle with leights, then just use gagne’s cap space to sign powe and carcillo
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
sadly you might be right.
and then when an opposing team wins a series in the playoffs next year on a bad goal by leighton, thats when we call for homer’s head on a silver platter and we better get it.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m just trying to think like homer
Drink about a litre of meths, pretty sure you will achieve your goal
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
well i’m sure that this has been the plan for awhile now, zherdev came out of left field but i like the signing
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
but then again Homer isn’t smart enough to waive cote, so who knows what to think
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
really? after shelley got 1.1 for three years? THAT GUY HAS A CAREER HIGH OF 10 POINTS! And Carcillo has taken great strides this season in every aspect
Carcillo has taken great strides this season in every aspect
Oh he’s got the strides OK, it’s the 4.0 degree of difficulty dives he’s attempting that need re-thinking.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone relax
Things will work out.
Also, Zherdev at 2m a year? That is beyond awesome.
This is 100% the result of the incredible run the team had last year. Clearly Zherdev wants a shot at the cup, feels that the Flyers represent that, so much so that he took less than the tax free rubles he would have made in the KHL, and less than he could have gotten here in the NHL to play for a team he considers a contendor. He is the anti-Nabakov.
We know Cote is gone, Carcillo is gone, and probably Bartulis is gone. I think there’s a chance that they work things out with Gagne and squeeze in just under the cap, isn’t there?
bartulis cant be gone, you need a 7th defenseman. and you need an extra forward. you cant just empty your roster to keep just starters.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If they goshdamn trade Bartulis I will flip out. Not because he’s one of my favourites, but because he’s a defensive prospect that we have developed from day one. Wouldn’t it be nice if one of them turned out good
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
hey what do you think of the scenario i posted above?
by historywillbemade on Jul 9, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading Gags and waiving Boosh sucks. But if Gagne has to be traded, then I guess it’s adequate. Not sold on Turco really, I’d rather keep Leighton (almost died typing this) and Boosh and save cap space for emergencies
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
im not entirely sold on turco, but i just cant stomach the thought of leighton blowing it in the playoffs knowing we had a chance to get someone else. especially if the rest of team is playing well and leighton becomes the only and most important liability.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Could you stomach spending $2 million on Turco and him doing exactly the same thing?
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
…and that’s the salient point.
Turco, 2-to-3 years ago = upgrade. Turco now = not an upgrade.
Leighton, barring something completely unforeseen, is our starter in October.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 9, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
i could stomach it a bit more b/c we at least tried rather resigning to leighton.
i still say turco is an upgrade. maybe im wrong. but i know id rather take a chance (like we did with emery) than stick with leighton, which would be the equivalent of sticking with biron after the batting the puck to crosby debacle.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Rather the devil you know than the devil you don’t – a cliche, but one that works often.
Leighton with this defense we now have will be effective – he’ll face much fewer high-quality scoring opportunities. Turco hasn’t been great in a while – I just don’t see how he would be a definite improvement.
Still, we have had plenty of unexpected moves recently – there will probably be more.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 9, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew it would be something like this. Mike has a knack for taking out skilled players, sometimes it is dirty, but I kinda like it
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Depends on your definition of dirty. What is it?
You're living in a parallel universe. Do not attempt angle parking.
January 11, 1976
by TopShelfTony on Jul 9, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s an example of Volchenkov. I as looking for Todd’s def of knack for taking out skilled players, sometimes it is dirty vis a vis Mike Richards.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
you leave your self open you’re gonna get hit. see scott fucking stevens.
by bleedorangewhiteblack on Jul 9, 2010 7:35 PM EDT reply actions
Except that Stevens played during the trap era
And was a dirty elbow and shoulder flying piece of crap, who’s main expertise was blindside hits where he crossed and took out a guy already engaged by his defensive partner.
Goalies and thoughts
On another note—
Most of what I’ve read in Second City sounds as though the Hawks will match the offer sheet that Hammer (can’t spell it) signed with San Jose. Under one scenario, this would mean that they’ll have to let Niemi walk if his arbitration award is too high and they can’t afford to sign him and stay under their cap.
I’ve read they might then consider making an offer to Turco.
If Turco has two teams vying for him (and we’re one of them) won’t that drive his price up?
—Also, I’ve heard that he wants 2.5 million, not the 2 million he already turned down.
There are two roster examples posted here. The first one includes Gagne, with Leights and Bouch, and no Carcillo. But it leaves us 1.4 million over cap.
The second is missing Gagne, but has Carcillo (at 1.3 million); with Turco in goal (at 2 million) and Leighton as backup.
I cannot figure out how to get back that 1.4 million in the first example, unless maybe Simon were to take an early hometown discount to stay here. Maybe in a renegotiated contract for multiple years at 3.8? Oh, well. That’s an insult to suggest.
—Also, we don’t know what Carcillo will command after arbitration. 1.3 may be low. I’d like us to be able to let him walk without being short a forward, and sort of over a barrel.
I think Simon is better in the line-up than Carcillo, even with Leighton as our starter. But I can’t figure out how to make the numbers work.
If I’m Bowman I’m almost thrilled to take the first and third round picks. If they match the offer sheet, their roster then looks something like this (all these take into account that $4.158 million bonus penalty):
AUTO-GENERATED CAPGEEK.COM LINES
FORWARDS
Jonathan Toews ($6.300m) / Patrick Kane ($6.300m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Patrick Sharp ($3.900m) / Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.200m)
Marty Reasoner ($1.150m) / Troy Brouwer ($1.025m) / Viktor Stalberg ($0.850m)
DEFENSEMEN
Brian Campbell ($7.143m) / Duncan Keith ($5.538m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($3.500m) / Brent Seabrook ($3.500m)
John Scott ($0.512m)
GOALTENDERS
Cristobal Huet ($5.625m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 15; CAP: $59.4m; CARRY-OVER PENALTY: $4.158m
PAYROLL: $59.352m; BONUSES: $0.065m; CAP ROOM: $0.113m
Okay, so the Hawks are probably going to waive Huet and I doubt anyone bites, so he’ll likely be in the AHL… though maybe the Islanders will so they can get to the salary floor (there was some speculation that was the reason behind their aggressive Kovalchuk offer — the Islanders currently have ~$35.7 million against the cap, while the minimum for this year is $43.4 million). That brings Chicago to here:
AUTO-GENERATED CAPGEEK.COM LINES
FORWARDS
Jonathan Toews ($6.300m) / Patrick Kane ($6.300m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Patrick Sharp ($3.900m) / Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.200m)
Marty Reasoner ($1.150m) / Troy Brouwer ($1.025m) / Viktor Stalberg ($0.850m)
DEFENSEMEN
Brian Campbell ($7.143m) / Duncan Keith ($5.538m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($3.500m) / Brent Seabrook ($3.500m)
John Scott ($0.512m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 14; CAP: $59.4m; CARRY-OVER PENALTY: $4.158m
PAYROLL: $53.727m; BONUSES: $0.065m; CAP ROOM: $5.738m
So that’s $5.7 million for three role player forwards, a third pairing defenseman, and two goalies. Let’s assume Niemi also gets $3.5 million — the consensus, I think, is that he’ll get more than that, but just for the sake of argument… and let’s also assume the Hawks will use Corey Crawford as their backup, whom they currently have on a one-way contract.
AUTO-GENERATED CAPGEEK.COM LINES
FORWARDS
Jonathan Toews ($6.300m) / Patrick Kane ($6.300m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Patrick Sharp ($3.900m) / Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.200m)
Marty Reasoner ($1.150m) / Troy Brouwer ($1.025m) / Viktor Stalberg ($0.850m)
DEFENSEMEN
Brian Campbell ($7.143m) / Duncan Keith ($5.538m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($3.500m) / Brent Seabrook ($3.500m)
John Scott ($0.512m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.500m) / Corey Crawford ($0.800m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 16; CAP: $59.4m; CARRY-OVER PENALTY: $4.158m
PAYROLL: $58.027m; BONUSES: $0.065m; CAP ROOM: $1.438m
Now you need three forwards and a defenseman for $1.438 million. Even if you paid all four the league minimum of $525,000 per year, that’s a total of $2.1 million between the four of them. Unless they plan on waiving Campbell as well, or would rather have Hjalmarsson than one of Sharp or Bolland, I think matching the offer sheet would be a mistake.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I’m so glad I’m not a hawks fan now. That team is getting the Marlins treatment and now they will decide b/w Hjammersson and Niemi and still probably have to trade Sharp. SCH seems to like the idea of Turco playing for them in the case that they let Niemi walk and send Huet to minors/Europe
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Risk?
after we just handed out 1.1 mil a year to three years to shelley (career high 10 points), i just dont see the risk in giving 2 mil to a guy thats a proven goal scorer (even if he is a T.O. in the locker room)
I don’t Zherdev can disrupt a locker room with such a strong leadership group. Pronger, RIchards, Lappy, Carter, Kimmo that locker is pretty tight.
Homer
So far the goal this offseason was to upgrade the 5th pair.
DONE Meszaros/O’Donnell done huge upgrade.
Get a Skilled RW
Zherdev at 2 million probably the best FA forward behind Kovy and Marleau.
DONE…
Goalie is the last piece
Even worst case scenario they waive Gagne and Boucher they have no over 5 million to use to get a 3rd line winger and a goalie or a top line winger and goalie depending on where you slot Zherdev.
Even if ever deal wasn’t the optimal contract and it would suck to see Gagne and Boucher gone this team is better much better and also younger.
O’Donnell: Great signing.
Meszaros: Terrible trade when realizing the options in front of him.
Zherdev: Great signing if it didn’t tell other teams Gagne MUST be moved, thus lowering the return.
Goalie: Why sign Leighton to a deal more expensive than your starter last year before seeing that Marty Biron is cheaper than Boucher, then go out and get another high priced goalie?
Sure, upgrade every position. Except do it smartly. He made the wrong play for the #5 defenseman, he jumped the gun on 3rd line winger, he overpaid for 4th line winger, and he jumped the gun on the goalie. In a salary cap world, you can’t just throw money at people and say “look! He’s better!” because you’re then making your team worse in other areas.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
But your are armchair quarterbacking assuming the UFA options in front of him would sign here to play on the 5th pair when they go to other team and be the top pair guys get the PP minutes etc etc..
You are assuming Gagne’s return is going to be lowered but in the end clearing like I said if Gagne yeilds nothing in return his cap space will. You also Gagne might have only waived his NTC for LAK and again they have the upper hand in making that trade. Also we could have completely missed out on Zherdev by waiting.
Biron would not I am telling would not signed for 900K on the Flyers to be the starter. No agent would ever take that deal. Backing up Lundquist is a whole other thing a job deserving of his salary. Also based on last season Leighton was better than Biron.
We paid 1.5 million for an exile goalie from KHL last year and only 50K more for a goalie that stated the stanley cup finals and had the best stats of any playoff goalie last season.
What area is the team worse. Find it and tell me. Because that are not worse in the end they will have a better goalie tandem a better D and more scoring depth. What exactly is there to complain about.
But your are armchair quarterbacking assuming the UFA options in front of him would sign here to play on the 5th pair when they go to other team and be the top pair guys get the PP minutes etc etc..
I’m not assuming that at all. I’m assuming SOMEBODY from this incredibly long list would have signed in Philadelphia for less than $4 million and not have required parting ways with a second round draft pick. I don’t care who it is: Michalek, Tallinder, Girardi, Seidenberg, Quincey, Leopold, Lydman, Schultz, Morris, Eaton, Aucoin, Boychuk, Foster, Stuart, Lebda, Babchuk , etc. You can’t tell me not a single player there would have signed in Philly if offered the #5 defenseman spot.
You are assuming Gagne’s return is going to be lowered but in the end clearing like I said if Gagne yeilds nothing in return his cap space will.
So when other teams know that you have to move somebody, they’ll still be willing to overpay? And you’re still okay with waiving Gagne just so you can sign Dan Carcillo and Darroll Powe?
You also Gagne might have only waived his NTC for LAK and again they have the upper hand in making that trade.
How does that give LA the upper hand? Why do they have to know that Gagne waived his NTC? Homer can say in the negotiations that “if we get Gagne to waive his NTC, we’ll give you him…” or Homer can say “Gagne has given us a list of 15 teams” or “He hasn’t specified any teams”… LA has no place to have an upper hand until the Flyers signed Zherdev and now HAVE to move somebody.
Also we could have completely missed out on Zherdev by waiting.
If you have Gagne, why do you need Zherdev? You don’t. And you can still upgrade the third-line winger – if you so choose – by signing Fedotenko, Svatos, Guerin, Ponikarovsky, Sykora, Jason Williams, Nokelainen, etc. Is Zherdev a steal at $2 mil? Certainly. But getting him now reduces the bargaining power you have in Gagne negotiations.
Biron would not I am telling would not signed for 900K on the Flyers to be the starter.
So I can’t assume, but you can? And who says you’re signing him to be your starter? The Flyers still supposedly want to sign Turco, so why wouldn’t Marty sign for a backup? And then, if you don’t get Turco, bam, you have a dirt cheap starter to pair with Boucher and/or Backlund.
Also based on last season Leighton was better than Biron.
Love those 41 game sample sizes taking precedence over a career’s worth of evidence.
We paid 1.5 million for an exile goalie from KHL last year and only 50K more for a goalie that stated the stanley cup finals and had the best stats of any playoff goalie last season.
Fine. But then why isn’t he officially named the starter? If you want to sign Leighton to a deal worth more than your starter last year, why are you still looking to improve in that position? And again, Leighton may have started in the Cup Finals, but he got pulled twice. And he didn’t have the best stats of any playoff goalie. He had a GAA 0.01 better than Boucher and the second highest SV%, only .001 higher than Jimmy Howard. But none of that matters, since the Flyers are looking to get someone better than him, despite paying him starter money.
What area is the team worse. Find it and tell me.
In the salary cap, in the draft picks, in the AHL team, and in whatever area the team has to move in order to get under the cap, likely 1st line winger. And if you say Carter-Richards-Giroux is your first line, you suddenly have no third-line center, and that line is drastically worse.
they will have a better goalie tandem a better D and more scoring depth.
Actually, they’ll have the same goalie tandem, just more expensive. They’ll have a better D and possibly more scoring depth, since if you add Zherdev but subtract Gagne, you have worse scoring depth. So all they’ve done is add Andrej Meszaros and downgrade from Zherdev to Gagne. BIG improvement.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it only works if they use that extra cap space (assuming of course you trade gagne, dump boosh and cote) to get another goalie. there’s no defense in the nhl that can make up for your starting goalie letting up softies.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why sign Leighton to more money than your previous starter??
If you want an upgrade in net, why a) Give Leighton more money than your previous starter to be your backup; b) Trade your top-line LW just to clear salary space; c) Spend $5.5 million upgrading/keeping your D; and d) go out and sign an high priced goalie??
If you want to upgrade in net, you don’t spend $4 million on a 5th defenseman while giving your backup goalie a $600k raise. You let Leighton walk, sign Chris Mason, and grab a ~$2 million defenseman. Instead, we overpay: the 5th defenseman, the starting goalie, and the backup goalie.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Homer misread the market for goalies and defensemen obviously. seems like they signed Leights and traded for Meszaros as insurance policies b/c they thought they couldn’t afford Turco/Nabokov and Hamhuis (or a like defensemen). I agree that we should’ve gotten cheaper defenseman then Meszaros and not signed shelley, but the market is still there to upgrade in goal so it would silly to atleast not try at this point since it seems like they have to move gagne anyway
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is what is so aggravating about the whole thing. Why sign Leighton to starter money if you don’t want him to be your starter? Wait 18 hours. Why trade for a guy who is now your 3rd highest paid d-man to play on the third pairing? Wait 2 hours.
But crap, now we have to unload salary because Homer effed up, so why not go overpay for an over-hyped goalie? Why? Because you’re compounding the problem, you aren’t fixing it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Basically like I been saying for two weeks. You are killing Homer because
He over paid Leighton by 500K and signed him too early.
Shelly by 500K
and signed Zherdev too quickly
FIRE HOMER IMMEDIATELY
What happens if Homer sits and waits for the everything to develope
Zherdev could have signed with Buffalo.
Leighton could have signed with someone else say CHI as they waive Huet.
Meszaros deal is off the table or trade elsewhere and all the free agents are gone.
I rather have a guy who gets shit done run my team then someone who waits around playing hardball and trying get perfect deal every time. This is a business guys aren’t going to just wait around all day for you to make up your mind.
by chrislanci on Jul 10, 2010 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Couldn’t agree more with the statement “This is a business….”
Those who take chances may fail a time or two, but they’ll succeed more than those that sit around and nitpick and wait for the perfect situation. Perfect situations rarely, if ever, happen. You need to be able to do the best with the knowledge and resources you have.
Now, that said, Homer has to also watch it. He can’t be signing guys to put us over the cap and blowing his bargaining power with the other teams, if he’s going to move someone. He’s in a bit of a pickle, now. It’ll be interesting to see how he gets out of it.
The team is better and hopefully, hopefully, Gagne will take less money or some other miraculous development with him happens and we can keep him. If not, that’s just the way the business works. He’ll be missed greatly.
by flyerboom_6 on Jul 10, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
What if Zherdev, Leighton, and Meszaros aren’t Flyers?
Jose Theodore gets a 2 year, $3.6 million offer. Nick Boynton gets a 1 year, $1 million offer. Ruslan Fedotenko gets a 2 year, $3.2 million offer.
Bam, I just saved you $1.8 million and your team is just as good, if not better, than it is now:
- You keep your second round pick next year
- You keep Simon Gagne
- You upgrade on Michael Leighton
- You upgrade over Krajicek (probably not Meszaros) while saving $3 million on Meszaros
- You save $0.4 million on your third line winger without sacrificing defense
And those are guys who are still available. If Homer doesn’t sign Leighton and trade for Meszaros before noon on July 1st, why couldn’t he have signed Chris Mason for an extra $300k and be done looking for an upgrade on Leighton? Why couldn’t he have signed Jordan Leopold, saving a 2nd round pick and $1mil? Why couldn’t he have signed Alex Tanguay, saving $300k on Zherdev? Then sign Scott Nichol, saving $340k on Shelley?
Bam, you have an equally good team, you can keep Gagne since you saved $1.34 million and you get a second round pick.
And the point is that Holmgren didn’t wait at all. He didn’t wait until free agency, he jumped the gun. This is a business and he panicked.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
bingo and now he has to clean up the mess
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Theo is not an upgrade over leighton
Boynton is not an upgrade over meszaros
Fedotanko is not an upgrade over zherdev.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
And if anyone can disagree with any of those, then they clearly do not watch hockey. Unless of course you were being sarcastic.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
the only one of those that is debatable is theo/ leighton but otherwise I’d agree fedotanko and boynton aren’t close to zherdev and meszaros at all.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I do disagree with those and I obviously do watch hockey, since you saw me doing as such this morning.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, I absolutely disagree. There is no doubt Theodore is better than Leighton.
Otherwise, regarding Boynton and Fedotanko, while they may not be “better” they are certainly equal.
And the point is, that by opting to sign Boynton, Fedotanko and Theodore, the Flyers save $1.8 mil. and are significantly less trouble cap-wise.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 10, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Theo is definitely an upgrade over Leighton, that’s not even a serious argument. Theo isn’t great, and has been much maligned, but he had a good season and is still better than Michael Leighton.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Then I guessed you missed the ECF’s, when leighton manhandled the team that Thoe couldn’t stop for shit. And I’d also say, if it weren’t for playing with the caps, that Theo would not have had nearly as many wins, and would most likely be a backup on most teams.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Theo couldn’t stop the Habs? Are you judging that off of his 81 minutes of play? Or the Game 1 overtime loss where he gave up 3 goals in 73 minutes while seeing 38 shots? A .921 save percentage in Game 1 shows he can stop them.
He follwed it up by giving up 2 goals on 2 shots in 8 minutes in Game 2, but hell, Leighton did that against Boston in Game 7.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you watch any of the hockey? For one, the Flyers manhandled the Habs, not just Leighton. For two… did you watch the SCF? For three, small sample size, how come Leighton isn’t even a career NHL backup, he’s a career AHL goalie! At least Theo is an NHL goalie.
No, Theo wouldn’t have had as many wins on another team, but the Caps don’t have as many wins if Theo didn’t play well. That 14 game win streak, and subsequently the Presidents’ Trophy, was because of how well Theo played. I mean shit, he was amazing against the Flyers all season, you should have at least seen those games.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
I’m not saying leighton is a god, he’s a career backup. But so is Theo. The question was that Theo is better, which he is not, they are just as good.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Theo is actually not a career backup. That’s factually a false statement. He’s a career starter and has only become a backup during Varlamov’s hot streaks. He’s not the Vezina/Hart guy from 2002, but he’s still an NHL caliber goalie that can start. Leighton has more than double the AHL starts as NHL starts on his career. For a reason. 08-09 and 09-10 are the only two years Leighton stayed in the NHL, and he played a grand total of 53 games combined in those two years. The vast majority of which were only because teams were riddled with injuries and had no other option. Your conclusion is really unsupportable.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
This.
No point in saying something when it has already been said perfectly.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 10, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Theo’s stats 518 of 548 games started 245-220 -30-22 wltotl record 2.68 career gaa .908 sv % 29 shutouts…
Leighton 91 of 103 games started 34-40-10 -4 wltotl record, 2.94 gaa .902 sv% 4 shutouts… Theo is a starter, Leighton a backup or ahl goalie
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Your using career stats on an argument that’s based of recent production. I know that leighton is a bad goalie, but I’m just saying that I wouldn’t take Theo for more money then what we have with leighton now.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
i’d gladly take Theo for $2 million over Leighton for 1.55
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know how you can even argue this
You should know as well as anyone else that a good goalie is the only thing that is keeping the caps from being a cup contention. You have the scoring, you have an average d, but you have two hot and cold goalies. Theo is just not the guy who can take a team to the cup, yet you defend the guy like he’s a future hall of famer
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
facts are that Theodore is a career starter, Vezina Trophy winner, hart trophy winner while Leights is career backup/ahl goalie. Can’t blame theo for coach having short leash. Caps defense is why they lost to montreal.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not the only one arguing. You literally are the only person that agrees with you. The other Flyers fans here agree with you.
And no, the goaltending is not what’s stopping the Caps. The biggest problem the last two years has been a lack of a second line. We don’t have a good 2C and Alex Semin is too streaky to be relied on to carry that line. You should know, as well as anyone, that a mediocre goalie can still give a team adequate goaltending. Our D isn’t as good as yours was last year, but it’s also not as far behind as most of you probably think (especially when Alzner and Carlson come up this year).
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
No
Works two ways. A good goalie can help a mediocre defense, and a mediocre goalie can benefit from a solid defense. If both are mediocre, then the team is destined to fail.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
So the Caps have:
an average d, [and] two hot and cold goalies.
That sounds like both are mediocre. And if that’s the case, this:
a good goalie is the only thing that is keeping the caps from being a cup contention.
is factually incorrect. The Caps have both an average defense and an average goaltending tandem. They also have their forwards (minus AO) disappear in the playoffs. Even you admit the Caps have more holes than goalie, so why do you then argue that Theo is the only thing keeping them from winning?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Small nitpick, Backstrom is reliable as well.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
I wasn’t singling anybody out, I just remember looking back at the past three playoffs and the Caps have only had 2 or 3 forwards produce in the playoffs. Outside of AO, I didn’t check their names to find a constant.
So I’ll take your word for it.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a fair critique, for sure. Semin has a 14 game scoreless streak in the playoffs (though was good against PHI). Flash disappears. Laich disappeared against MON. Fehr I guess could be given credit but for the most part the only guys that have given the Caps what they needed were AO and Backstrom.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
No, Theo wouldn’t have had as many wins on another team, but the Caps don’t have as many wins if Theo didn’t play well.
OK, I’m almost sure this is a contradictory statement. But it’s Sunday afternoon and I have to cut the grass, so I’m going to pass on trying to figure it out.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe
Tomas Vokoun is better than Theo, but Theo had more wins. That’s because the Caps are better than FLA. But at the same time, the Caps wouldn’t have won as many games as they did if Theo hadn’t played as well as he did; specifically from January until April.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Sorry F & B
It seems my sense of humor is worse than usual. Your comment struck me as being a sort of double-negative thing: he wouldn’t have done so well if the team hadn’t done so well if he…and so on. I’ll stop commenting: I knew what you meant and you didn’t need me to poke fun at you.
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Theo is an upgrade over Leighton.
Boynton is not an upgrade over Meszaros, but he saves you $3 million and a second round pick.
Fedotenko is not an upgrade over Zherdev, but he is an upgrade over Asham and Zherdev is a downgrade from Gagne. So Gagne + Fedotenko is better than Zherdev.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
So, to put it all together:
Boynton + Fedotenko + Gagne + 2nd round pick >>>>> Meszaros + Zherdev.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I dissagee
I love Gagne, more then anyone on the team, but zherdev is an upgrade over him at this point in his career. And I would rather powe + zherdev over gagne + fedotanko
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Have you ever seen Zherdev play in the playoffs? Neither has anyone else.
Even if, a big if, Zherdev is actually better than Gagne in the regular season right now, Gagne is the kind of guy you can make a playoff run with. Zherdev is not.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Ok
Ovi has had bad playoffs, but would you trade him for gagne? No, and I wouldn’t either. Kovy has only been to one playoff, but I would take him over gagne. Richie and Carter can get lazy at times, but I would take them on my team any day. So you judge a guy, even though he’s likely to score 25-30 goals, and help the two youngest guys on the team production astronomically, based on the fact that he’s played on shitty teams?
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
Haha. Wow, so now we are bringing AO into this, as if Gagne or Zherdev is on AO’s level? AO actually has not had bad playoffs. He’s been the best Cap in each the three playoff years for the Caps. The Caps have disappointed, but AO has held up his end of the deal. Zherdev is invisible in big games.
Kovy has been to two playoffs. And the first was underwhelming. He was alright for NJD, but that’s mostly because he’s the only guy that looked like he wanted to play. I’d take Kovy over Gagne or Zherdev too, but only because he’s the better player. But again, that’s irrelevant in a Zherdev v. Gagne discussion.
I’m not judging Zherdev for playing on shitty teams. I’m judging him for being soft, inconsistent, and unreliable. He was a huge part of the Rags offense two years ago… in the regular season. He had 58 points in the regular season, and 0 points in the playoffs… against the terrible Caps D and the Caps terrible goalies. And 0 points doesn’t even explain how bad or non-influential he was in that series. I’d be hard pressed to find a bigger disappearing act that didn’t involve Tomas Fleischmann.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Wasnt bring AO up because he’s on gagnes level or not, I brought him up because he’s fits the example. He’s had decent playoffs, but he hasn’t had a playoff that resembled his regular season yet. Meaning he’s played down to his ability in the playoffs. Same with Kovy. It’s like your reading all my comments wrong on purpose, because I clearly said I’d take both AO and Kovy over gagne and zherdev.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
AO’s points per game is higher in the playoffs than regular season. Try fact checking.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Which is benifited from the fact that he played 10 playoffs games, from 82 regular season games.
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
I entirely disagree, though your purposefully mispelling of Ruslan’s name is clever.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
but zherdev is an upgrade over him at this point in his career
How do you come up that? Gagne is only 30 years old. He may be an “old” 30 but that is hugely different than being 35. I am not sure what kind of offensive production you are expecting to get from Zherdev, but do you really think that Zherdev’s offensive production, on the third line, is going to be leaps and bounds above Gagne’s. Assumably, playing with Giroux will be very helpful for Zherdev but I don’t see him blowing Gagne out of the water in an offensive stat comparison.
Then, there is the issue of defensive liability. Still, at this stage in his career, Gagne is not a liability. He has continued to be one of the best defensive forwards on the Flyers. Zherdev’s biggest knock is his defensive inabilities.
The only area that Zherdev may have an advantage over Gagne, at this point in his career, is Gagne’s injury history, which is an area of concern.
Basically, Zherdev is not Kovalchuk, in that Kovy’s superior offensive production so heavily out-weighs his defensive incompetence.
@Mitchman88 on Twitter
by Mitchell Green on Jul 10, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I expect 25 goals minimum on the third line from zherdev, where I would think 25 is the max gagne will get in the first line. But age, injury risk, salary, and potential resigning all factor into this too, which I would give the nod to zherdev
Pilgrim: Be gone pest, and give me the Bird
Yakko: We'd love to but the FOX censors wouldn't allow it
The Flyers only had three 25-goal scorers last year. And yet you expect a third-line player to score 25 goals?
Hope, yes. Expect? Damn.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
Zherdev’s production is improving. Gagne’s is not improving, it’s declining.
Zherdev is worse than Gagne defensively. Zherdev is as good or better than Gagne offensively. Zherdev is $3.2m cheaper than Gagne. Zherdev is several years younger than Gagne. We have other guys that can penalty kill, and don’t need Gagne to do so.
Zherdev @2m is unquestionably preferable to Gagne @5.2m.
In a salary vacuum, I’d rather have Gagne since he’s better defensively. But he’s not $3.2m better defensively. He just isn’t. And the sentimentality doesn’t make up the difference objectively.
bingo and we could potentially fit in another 2-3 roster players in gagne’s cap hit. think about it gagne’s 5.2 is probably more than zherdev + carcillo + powe put together and gagne probably can produce enough tangibly to be worth more than those 3 players and possibly more that we get out of trading gagne and signing zherdev
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
How is Zherdev’s production improving? He went from 61 points in 82 NHL games to 58 in 82 games, then went to the KHL.
Gagne went from 68 in 76 to 74 in 79 before having 40 in 58. Gagne’s injury shortened bad season is still just barely below Zherdev’s last NHL season.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well
I thought this had been covered elsewhere, but 58 points in 82 games is (apparently) really good in the KHL. Coupled with his reduced-quality teammates, his obvious offensive acumen & talent, and his age, and I think it’s unquestionable that this guy is striving towards his offensive peak rather than skating away.
Gagne played with one of the best playmakers in the league in Richards. I’m not saying he’s not offensively gifted — I said that they’re both about a wash offensively.
But Zherdev isn’t $3.2m worse defensively than Gagne. That’s what I’m saying it really comes down to.
First, you just can’t compare NHL and KHL numbers at all. Not only is it worse teammates, it’s worse competition. It’s bigger rinks. It’s different attitudes. Etc.
Second, with a guy who supposedly is lazy and shows up when he wants to, I don’t think anything is “unquestionable”. Just because he’s entering his prime age doesn’t mean he’s mature enough to do something with it.
But this isn’t a Zherdev bash or a Gagne bash. I like the Zherdev signing. Really, I do. I hate the timing and I think Homer could have had both, which is my problem.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not really talking about your problem with it
That’s fine, perhaps it should have come in a day, or perhaps another team would have grabbed Zherdev & Homer realized that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
It’s hard for me to believe that you prefer Gagne at $5.2m to Zherdev at $2m, so I’ll instead choose to believe that you don’t like some aspects of Zherdev’s game, and are quibbling that he’s improving. Well, most stats show players hit their peak at 25, and frankly I don’t buy the notion that he’s lazy and putting up 60 points a year in the NHL. Oftentimes a player seems lazy when those around him can’t help create.
He could be putting up more, perhaps, and I would think Pronger & Richards are the exact kinds of guys who can help with that.
If you don’t consider his offensive talents better than Gagne’s, fine. But I just can’t buy that Gagne’s defense is $3.2m better than Zherdev’s.
Gagne should be getting paid $3m. He’s not. Zherdev @$2m is a steal, Gagne at $5.2m is a waste of money.
Again, I’m not saying I’d prefer one over the other. I’m saying I’d prefer to have both. And the Flyers could have had both if they didn’t overpay for Shelley and Meszaros.
Before the offseason, we all pretty much agreed the Flyers had 4 areas of need:
- Starting Goalie
- Third Pairing Defensemen
- Re-sign Coburn
- Third line winger.
By striking out on starting goalies, settling for Leighton, then reconsidering his ability to be a #1; Overpaying for your #5 defensemen; and overpaying for a 4th line winger, signing Zherdev means the only way to actually field that team is to move your first line winger.
Zherdev as the third-line winger is great. After overpaying in all the other areas, you’re now subtracting. And that’s my problem.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm aware of your issues
They’re well documented, well thought out, and I basically agree with them (my quibble is that Mesz is probably good for 20-25 min a night, and I think he’s worth closer to $4m annual than you do I suspect).
Totally agreed that i’d rather have both Zherdev & Gags to one or the other.
haha, ok. Then I’ll just close with:
Even if your assessment of Mesz is correct, he doesn’t fit on this team. We don’t need our #5 defenseman to play that many minutes or get paid that much money. Which, again, goes back to Paul Holmgren.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
brain fart
I meant to say that apparently 39 points in 52 games is really good in the KHL, I got my seasons confused.
As far as the 3 point reduction from Columbus to NYR… Well, he played on two meh teams. And he’s 25, and already putting up 25 goals and 35 assists per year… That’s great production, and I think there’s every possibility of improvement with real playmakers like Richards or Giroux around him.
Except the flip side is that he was on the PP1 unit for both teams and won’t be for PHI.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
well... he might
there’re a couple scenarios where he ends up on the first pp… depends on if you ever want Carter playing C, or if you want Briere at RW or C, or if other players move. L3 with Giroux & JVR is a great place for point production regardless.
I thought this had been covered elsewhere, but 58 points in 82 games is (apparently) really good in the KHL. Coupled with his reduced-quality teammates,
No mention that Kevin Dallman is the best D Zherdev has to face in the KHL? Or they hilariously bad goaltending they have there?
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Exactly. The player for player skill comparisons are not nearly the entire picture. Sure, I’d love to have Kovalchuk because he’s better than all but 2 of the Caps forwards, but there’s something else in that equation that makes it a non-starter…
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
You not factoring in anything for what we get when Gagne cap space is moved.
Zherdev, Leighton, Meszaros are Flyers
Waive Gagne, Boosh and Cote (for example I rather trade him)
No you also get Theodore and Fedotenko and Powe and other room to do much much more.
So you’re giving up a first-line winger for nothing, so you can go out and sign the guys you should have signed rather than the ones you did?
That’s TERRIBLE management!
And yes, if the Flyers get rid of Gagne’s cap space, they suddenly have room to make such excellent acquisitions such as Jose Theodore (but only if they waive another player), Ruslan Fedotenko (who they’ve already passed on), and Darroll Powe so that he can play on the… press box lunch table. BRILLIANT!
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 11, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Let me be clear:
(You pictured Obama, didn’t you?)
Nikolai Zherdev for one year at $2 million is a good signing.
Signing a player to put your team over the cap before you’ve unloaded somebody is a bad idea. Any leverage you previously had (“No, we won’t accept a 4th round pick and the rights to Randy Jones for Simon Gagne”) is gone since all the other NHL GMs know that you can’t just stand pat. You have to move SOMEBODY.
If they had signed Zherdev instead of Shelley, fantastic. If they had traded salary – who cares who – so that Zherdev’s $2 million didn’t put them over the cap, fantastic.
But Holmgren made the signing and is left asking “Shit. Now what?” Yet another time Homer prematurely acted. If you like Leighton for $1.55 mil, cool. But a) wait until you see that Marty Biron costs half as much; b) He’s your starter, period. You don’t trade for a $4 million #5 defensemen, give your #4 a 100% raise, then give both your starter and backup goalies a raise.
If this were 2002, by all means, spend like you’re George Steinbrenner. But an upgrade in one area means a downgrade in another. You can’t upgrade the third line, the third pairing, your starting goalie, and give your second pairing d-man a raise without significantly downgrading in another area. Homer is now left with having to downgrade because he didn’t see that signing Kurtis Foster instead of trading for Andrej Meszaros would give this team enough cap space to sign Zherdev without going over the cap.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:03 AM EDT reply actions
You are making me insane with all your assumptions.
But in your perfect world were everyone wants to sign in Philly as their 1st choice regardless of their role team. And the rest of league’s GMs give Holmgren the right of first refusal before signing free agents or making trades. I guess you have a point.
This doesn’t make any sense and I never said any of that, so I’m not even going to respond more than that.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
If this were 2002, by all means, spend like you’re George Steinbrenner.
The worst part about the ‘90s and early 2000s is that the Flyers did spend like George Steinbrenner, and they still didn’t win anything. At least the Yankees can justify that kind of spending because they, you know, make reasonable and sane personnel decisions that result in them not just consistently competing for championships, but actually winning championships (a novel possibility, I know).
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Perfectly put.
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by Travis Hughes on Jul 10, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we can all agree that Meszaros is overpaid for his role, but the guy hasn’t played a minute for us, is still young, has shown plenty of talent in the past, and is not really going to be a #5 defenseman. He isn’t going to play 5 minutes per playoff game like Krajicek did. We can criticize Homer for jumping the gun and maybe making decisions before he had to but let’s see how the team shapes out. At the moment we have significantly upgraded the third pairing, our most glaring weakness of the postseason.
I’m as uncomfortable with Leighton as our clear #1 as any of you, but that’s not certain yet, and before we bash this guy for letting in a couple of soft goals lets remember it wasn’t just the defense that carried us vs Boston, he came in and played very well. He’s been in and out of the minor leagues his whole career, playing one of the most confidence-reliant positions in sports. If we are doomed to have Leighton as our starter let’s see what another year with Reese and with confidence do for the guy. I’m upset we missed out on Ellis and Mason for what they were paid, but are they really that much better than Leighton at this point? Maybe, but I don’t think any of us are qualified to know that.
Will I miss Gagne is he is a casualty of these events? Of course. He’s my favorite NHL player and has been for a decade. But we all knew his time was dwindling here at a 5.2 cap hit. I’m sure most of us figured he’d re-sign when it ended for much less to stay with the organization, but maybe he’d come back anyways if we parted with him on good terms in a trade. And though he is truly an excellent two-way forward, he has been injury prone of recent, his body has taken a toll, and he clearly isn’t the player he used to be. I’ve come to terms with it, and though I’d like him to stay around this is what the cap forces you to do.
The Zherdev signing I like, the Shelley signing I’m not going to comment on until I see what happens with Cote/Carcillo, and then also what happens with Shelley during the year. It might end up looking like a decent decision, but the uproar isn’t against Shelley personally more about that money going to a better place. Well, we can’t do anything about that.
It’s mid-july! Relax! The team is better! There was no easy solution at goal, we weren’t salivating about any of the FA goalies, and while a lot of us agreed bringing in Ellis or Mason to challenge Leighton (and likely win the job) would have been good, this isn’t the end of the world. And again. It’s July 10th.
yes – signing meszaros will ultimately lead to timmo leaving and him taking on a top 4 role… if all pieces fall into place
Kimmo’s not going anywhere. Forget that he has a well-deserved NMC, Homer would get fired if he got anything short of Sidney Crosby for Kimmo, because Snider and especially Luukko aren’t hockey idiots after all these decades. Just because you don’t hear the man’s name a lot or see him on random online lists of “top” NHL defensemen doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the best.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
because Snider and especially Luukko aren’t hockey idiots after all these decades.
OK, Geoff’s obviously convinced that Boucher is gone so he’s switching his man-crushin’ to Holmgren. That much is clear from his constant support of the Flyers’ GM. I think that only Ben Feldman and I have mentioned Ed Snider at all. Whether we are like Geoff in his blind allegiance to all things Homer or not, I don’t imagine for a moment that PH makes any moves without the approval of ES. I don’t know this, but my impression of Ed Snider is not one of a man who doesn’t have final approval on every major decision affecting the Flyers. Have I got this right?
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s a really good interview with Ed Snider from about a year and a half ago. He said this about trades:
Well, I wouldn’t say that owners and coaches are at odds with each other. First of all, the structure that I like, and have had in most of the years, is I hire a general manager. It’s the general manager’s job to hire the coach, and it’s the general manager’s job to make the trades, to analyze the players, to analyze the coach. I don’t interfere in any of that. If the general manager’s going to make a major trade, he comes to me and he says, "I’m going to trade X with Y." And I start asking a lot of questions: "Why? Tell me about this other guy. Let me see his statistics. Why do you want to trade this guy? Why do you want to get that guy?" I’ve always run the Flyers and all of my other ventures as a business. And sports has to be run as a business. You can’t get too carried away.
I also remember him saying something like the minute he starts questioning or doubting his general manager is when he either realizes he’s lost his trust in him or he’s gotten too involved. But certainly he would understand trading Kimmo ever would be outrageous.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Thanks for this. Some of it confirms in my mind the impression I had of ES being the ulitimate decision-maker. I was surprised to see anyone else even mention his name beacuse my impression of his being the real decision-maker wa/is so strong. I’m going to run a BSH search on “Snider” and see what I come up with. I guess Geoff is OK with my thought on his loyalty and support of everything PH does. Either that or he hasn’t read my comment.
Nah, he just doesn’t care what I think!
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
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by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
What? Are you being sarcastic?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That much is clear from his constant support of the Flyers’ GM.
Yes, poking a little fun at you. Your commentaries (especially in this thread and now starring in their own entry I see) on GMPH seemed to be everywhere and when I saw that Ben Feldman mentioned Ed Snider and I commented that only BF and I seem to mention him and his possible influence on GMPH and club actions I couldn’t resist sneaking in a little joke about how unflinching you are in your support.
THIS YOUTUBE CLIP IS ME MAKING A JOKE!
by TopShelfTony on Jul 10, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, the internetz doesn’t carry lols nice.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 11, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
He is definitely very important for our team. He is still one of the best and most underrated defensemen in the league. I would hate to see him go. I hope he retires a Flyer.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 10, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention, he's basically a player-coach
Every partner he’s ever had has improved after playing with Kimmo. Unfortunately Coburn regressed a bit :P
Let’s hope with that big contract he has now he’ll settle back down this year.
You mean in 12-13 when Kimmo’s contract is up, right?
If so, yes, then it makes sense. Kimmo’s going nowhere before his contract is up.
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yes – meaning – you cant pay mesz so much without foreseeing a potential changing of the guard and timmo isnt as locked in as coburn and pronger and i dont remember what matt’s deal is… nobody thinks timmo is trade bait last year of his contract?
No. He’s not. At all.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
nope
he’s gonna retire after 2012-2013, and i don’t see the flyers trading one of the best PP QBs who is also one of the best defensive minded stick handlers in the NHL.
Kimmo is a top 10 defenseman in the NHL, easily. He’s a prime example of why Norris trophies don’t tell the whole NHL defenseman story.
As a point of comparison — I’d rather have Drew Doughty than Timonen, because he’s younger and cheaper. But Doughty simply isn’t as good as Kimmo. Not yet, anyway. Kimmo just shuts down players in a way a handful of other players can — that list includes Lidstrom, Pronger, Keith, and like… not that many other guys. You can’t trade a player like that unless you get an absolute boatload (Pronger-level stuff) back.
The only thing I disagree with in there is that since Leighton is signed to #1 money, why isn’t he the #1, whether we like it or not?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
b/c flyers still don’t seem content with Leights as the starter and based on what Leights said, he knows that they are still pursuing other options in net and the rumors (Turco, Bernier, Quick, Theo)
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
they figure they can survive with Leights
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why sign him to starter money?
If you pay him $1.55 million, you’re signing a starter. If you’re not signing a starter, you don’t sign him to that contract.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
since when is 1.55 million starter money before this offseason? last year when flyers took gamble on emery?
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
A) Ray Emery;
B) Chris Mason;
C) Dan Ellis
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
a) making comeback from khl
b) Mason makes more, and is likely splitting time
c) never a proven starter, probably also splitting time.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Michael Leighton:
a) making comeback from AHL
b) makes $30k less and is likely splitting time
c) never a proven starter, also splitting time.
And yet, Ray Emery, Chris Mason, and Dan Ellis have all been a full-time starter for at least a full season, something Michael Leighton has never been.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
so if b & c are true that means Leights is being paid as a full-time starter. I just think that 1.55million isn’t starter money at all
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
*not being paid…sorry typo, missed putting that word in
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
if gagne is truly going to go then we have the cash and should try to get a goalie at least as someone who will push Leighton for starting position. oh and if homer doesn’t waive Cote, he deserves to be fired. cote is a waste of cap space and i’d rather have legein or nodl take his roster spot
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 9:23 AM EDT reply actions
Does any one have nhl inside? there’s like 4 flyers related rumors on there, one about Turco’s future now that he’s not going to SJ, flyers asking price for gagne and what kings would give up, what flyers next move will be and what they will do with money if they trade gagne.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 9:32 AM EDT reply actions
any one want to make point predictions for a possible jvr-giroux-zherdev line?
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 10:11 AM EDT reply actions
I predict that 2 out of those 3 probably won’t play great defense.
by flyerboom_6 on Jul 10, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I am not going to throw out numbers now, but here’s my prediction:
If the line stays intact throughout the whole year and there are no major chemistry problems, all of them will set career highs in points, and Giroux will have a lot more assists if Zherdev bangs a lot of goals into the net. JVR will hopefully do some great workouts in the summer and he will do better as well. Translation: This will be a very good line if it shapes up how I feel it can.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
by Lindbergh 31 on Jul 10, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeEdhGS5cgo
zherdev has some sick moves
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
and here’s last year in khl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UQ8UjxdmoE&feature=related
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Devs may have lost their minds...
http://nhl.fanhouse.com/2010/07/10/report-ilya-kovalchuk-has-massive-17-year-deal-on-table-from-ne/
(I posted this in another thread, thinking that I had posted it in this one – sorry! :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Jul 10, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions
trying to drive down the cap # by extending it, probably assume he won’t play that long. will still have to shed salary this offseason and will probably hamper them in years to come but by all means I’d laugh my ass off if he signed it.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
wow seems like both the devils and kings are pushing hard. kings offered 15 years and devils 17. i want him to sign with devils and kill the cap, plus then LA will pony up for Gagne
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not a 35+ contract. Whenever Kovalchuk retires or jumps to the NHL, the cap hit will disappear. And their owner is very stable and has the cash to see that kind of a deal through.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Admittedly theoretical, but ...
I’ve been tinkering with the lineup and the new (great signing) of Zherdev. Now, I think everyone will admit he his a gifted scorer, but a defensive liability. So, I would say he needs to be paired with two responsible two-way forwards. But one also doesn’t want to see that scoring talent wasted playing with an opposing winger like Powe or Nodl.
With that premise, there is NO WAY the team can trade Gagne unless they get a roughly equivalent forward in return. If we assume that the Hartnell-Briere-Leino line is set in stone (and realistically the only decent two-way forward there is Leino), Gagne is the only two-way left wing in the system that could be on a line with Zherdev. He’s a good scorer/passer, and also good in his own zone. What other left wing on the roster can say that???
So, accepting my assumptions (Briere line intact, Zherdev defensive liability, defensemen standing pat) the only possible salary dump is Carter. If Carter is kept and Gagne goes, Carter plays center, Giroux moves to right wing, Leino moves to play opposite Zherdev, … and the whole team is topsy-turvy. If instead, Carter is moved (albeit not my favorite idea, but the only one that makes sense to me right now) the lineup would look something like this:
2010-11 PHILADELPHIA FLYERS
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Ville Leino ($0.800m)
Simon Gagne ($5.250m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Nikolai Zherdev ($2.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($0.822m) / * Daniel Carcillo ($0.893m)
Ian Laperriere ($1.167m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
Riley Cote ($0.550m) / * Darroll Powe ($0.520m)
DEFENSEMEN
Matt Carle ($3.438m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Sean O\’Donnell ($1.300m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Michael Leighton ($1.550m) / Brian Boucher ($0.925m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 23; CAP:$59.4m; PAYROLL: $58.173m; CAP ROOM: $2.165m; BONUSES: $0.938m
Notice both the cap room remaining (part of what will be necessary to sign Leino and Giroux next season) and the balance of the forward lines. Short of this scenario, something exceptional will have to happen to this team. (My immediate preference is trading Briere or Hartnell, but with their huge cap hits and NMCs, that ain’t realistic.)
I just don’t think trading Carter over Gagne is realistic or smart in the long term. Carter is younger and can produce more than gagne and is still rfa. Gagne is an old 30 with one year left on his deal, has an injury history, and is unlikely to retained even at a discount b/c giroux, leino, carter, and now zherdev becoming free agents next season. I think it’s unfair to say Carter can’t play wing when he only did it for a short period of time when he was still on two bad feet. as painful as it will be to see gagne go, it makes the most sense
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see Carter on the wing
We can argue that point ad nauseum, but I really think Carter isn’t a winger. I certainly accept your argument about Carter being younger and producing more – and I’d love to keep him. But keeping such a stack at center with nothing much at wing just doesn’t help the team.
by penguinsfan on Jul 10, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
then maybe the logical thing might be to trade gagne and move giroux back to wing. either way gagne looks like the one to go (probably along with Cote and maybe Boosh)
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps – but Giroux played right wing, not left. That would necessitate moving Leino to play opposite Zherdev. I realize one wing tio the other isn’t such a huge deal, but ….
Via Ecklund http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/So-Mr-Kovalchuk-15-or-17-years-at-100M-Flyers-goalie-trade-rumor/1/29292
“Flyers interested in Bernier?
Rumors persist that if the Flyers move Gagne, they could go hard in a trade for Kings backup Bernier…."
only way I can see Kings giving up Bernier or even bothering to trade for gagne at all would be if Kovie signs with the Devils and not the kings
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
CBA silent on long front-loaded contracts
The CBA has a lot of discussion about rising contracts…how much they can increase each year. There is nothing in the CBA for or against these types of high early salary-long length-expect you’ll retire-moderate cap hit contracts. This is why the league office (absurdly) railed against these (recall the comments about being against the “spirit” of the CBA, lol for you lawyers), because it is apparent that they had not thought about clubs wanting to spend to the cap now, like most of the big-market clubs, when the CBA was constructed. I’d guess that this will be addressed in the next CBA, since the league office apparently hates these.
However, when I worked in California years ago there was a statutory limit on all employment contracts of 7 years. The Lakers had to do some serious 2-steps to do a longer contract for Magic years ago (including some kind of ownership or out-clause as I recall). Does anyone know if, under normal circumstances, the Kings would even be allowed under California law to do this? Has the law been changed? Could they work around it in the context of a SPC/the CBA?
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
No one cares about this, but....
“Upon further review” and thinking about it, I think collective bargaining would trump state employment law. So, never mind about the 7 year limit.
But here’s a takeaway for those who are not familiar with this…..collective bargaining (read: unions) are the reason why sports leagues deal with unions. It allows them to do all sorts of otherwise-illegal things, including violate anti-trust law. The NHL owners are in the best position of any sports management…they have collective bargaining with a weak union. But if it was any weaker, they’d have to worry about decertification.
Yes I am old. I remember the Phils good old days and their bad old days. Course, the good old days I'm thinking of were in 2009.
Homer's Epics: An Odyssey for the Salary Cap, The Quest For the Goalie Grail
That ship sailed a long time ago (i.e., at the draft). Again, I ask, why trade for Bernier when the Flyers have prospects who are basically just as unproven in the NHL level in Backlund and Bobrovsky (and Eriksson, but he’s several years away)?
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
Because Bernier is closer to being in the NHL, more proven at higher levels, and has been seen as a higher level prospect the entire time.
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Oh, I don’t doubt that Bernier is a better prospect than those guys, but if you acquire Bernier, you need to ship one of Leighton/Boucher out.
I think – sorry if I’m incorrect, Ben – Ben is saying we have a ton of young goalie prospects who need time to develop and playing time. Having Backlund, Bobrovsky, Riopel, and Bernier battling for jobs doesn’t help anybody. At least one of those guys needs to be in the NHL, and none of them probably are.
I’d love Bernier as a backup/1B to a guy like Theo, but we have Leighton and Boucher under contract. If the Flyers could somehow get rid of Leighton and Boucher, trade for Bernier and sign Theo all while getting under the cap, I’d be ecstatic. But that’s not going to happen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 10, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with that. You don’t want to clog the AHL with too many goalies because they need to play. I assumed that one way or another Bernier would be in the NHL next season, not battling for an AHL job.
Where are all your goalie prospects set to play next year? Are they all looking at the AHL?
Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, sometimes you need a criminal lawyer.
Of those considered to be the top goalie prospects in the organization, we have one (Eriksson) moving up to the Swedish Elite League. The rest (Bobrovsky, Backlund, Riopel, Stewart) are looking at the AHL and ECHL, though it’s possible Backlund beats out Boucher for the NHL backup job at training camp.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
by Ben Feldman on Jul 11, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
other teams still have needs: http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/The-10-NHL-teams-that-still-have-significant-nee;_ylt=Av3.cwLL.lL.2t2d97J6t3p7vLYF?urn=nhl,255079
“Philadelphia Flyers: Veteran goaltender
Evgeni Nabokov(notes) was too rich for their blood (and, apparently, that of the rest of the NHL). Will Marty Turco’s(notes) price come down? Do they want him? And will the Flyers drop enough payroll with a Gagne trade/waiver move to bring in the veteran backstop they need on that roster? "
I’ve done the math via capgeek. trading gagne, waiving boosh and cote gives you plenty of room for Turco at less than $2.5 million, and resigning Powe and Carcillo. would put us abour 1.5 million from cap but it fills out the roster and upgrades goalie position
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions
#Flyers Gagne on Zherdev signing: “It’s certainly disappointing. I signed a 5yr contract & wanted to honor it to the very end.” #NHL
#Flyers Simon Gagne: “Flyers have asked me to waive my NTC, but I’m not prepared to do that just yet. We’ll see in next couple days.” #NHL
#Flyers Simon Gagne: “I’ve been aware about our salary cap problems. If this didn’t happen this year, it would’ve happened the next.” #NHL
Sigh.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
class act. i only hope that they find him a good destination.
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is Jay_Gold_?
I ask because he dose not give a source and I have never herd of him
Sarah is just re-tweeting him
It would be great if all the SB boards compiled a list of local people they trusted
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 10, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know exactly who he is, but I’ve been seeing his tweets around for about a year now, and that Sarah Baicker seems to know/trust him is good enough for me.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
I like her and am rooting for her success but I would not consider her if we made a short list of local reliable tweeters
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 10, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
so i take it that this is just going to continue hanging over our heads for awhile now. I blame Kovalchuk. if that guy would make up his mind already the rest of the league would do something
by historywillbemade on Jul 10, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree he is throwing a wrench into a lot of teams plans.
It is hurting us, but its worse for other teams
If he had signed, bey Gagne would be on another team by now.
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 10, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
More French Interviews
These seem to be almost verbatim to comments Gagne made while being interviewed this week while he and Danny were at a celebrity golf tournament. Some things left out were comments from his agent about the dissapointment of the possibility Gagne wont finish his career in Philly.
by 02h32m01s on Jul 10, 2010 11:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Lets hope that stops all of the italics. These italics is making it hard to read the thread.
My sneaking suspicion is that the Gagne situation isn’t going to end well. I hope it ends in a way where it benefits both but it looks like Gagne may join Lindros in the group of ex-Flyers who don’t want anything to do with the Flyers.
"Want a donut go to dunkin donuts, want a linebacker go to Penn State."
- Cris Carter, NFL Draft, 4/25/09
twitter: @princessblueezy
so what happens if I actually use the Italics button?
It dose appear as if the Gagne situation is going to end up messy.
I hope not
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 10, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Great discussion going on in this thread. All extremely interesting with good opinions.
BUT, why is the entire thread italicised? It makes it near impossible to read. Anyone having these problems?
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Yeah, I see it too. My guess is somewhere along the line, someone left an HTML italics block unclosed. It does make it hard to read.
Contributor at The Brotherly Game, SBN's Philadelphia Union blog
by Ben Feldman on Jul 11, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s happened before and it’s usually an SBN problem that gets fixed pretty quickly. Mine has been going in and out of italics…
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 11, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Zherdev becomes the Flyers second best shootout scorer behind Briere scoring on 39.39% of his shots.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
And in practice
He will be close to 100% going 5 hole. Probably this will be a big help to Leighton, because after he’s scored on 5 hole 50x in practice, he’ll probably focus in on that.
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