Monday Morning Fly By: What to Do This Week?
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 2, 2010 10:29 AM EDT
in Morning Fly By
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PrintToday's open discussion thread, complete with your daily dose of Philadelphia Flyers news and notes...
- Did you hear? Marty Turco won't be playing in Philly: [BSH]
- The NHLPA is nearing one year without a leader: [From the Rink]
- Pictures of Jakub Kovar's first game with his new gear: [euroflyers]
- Is there a better way to judge defensive contribution? [Behind The Net]
- Tweaking the previous look at defensive contribution: [Behind The Net]
- Estimating NHL Shooting Talent: [Behind the Net]
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Has complaining about the Gagne trade, Jody Shelly, bashing Homer finally gotten and arguing over cap space finally gotten boring?
We can always talk about Inception, a must see if you haven’t already.
Inception was good but I prefer shutterisland
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 10:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Please stop
Before this gets out of hand, I would like to see inception and don’t want someone spoiling it (not saying either of you will, just want to stop it before it gets started).
Is this the right room for an argument?
NON SPOILER RECOMMENDATION: Don’t go in trying to compare it to the Matrix … give Inception its own merit and you will enjoy it more
Yes, I have no intention of comparing the two. I’m also a huge Joseph Gordon Levitt fan.
Is this the right room for an argument?
They’re really not comparable at all.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 12:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I could go scene for scene an point out a lot of similarities >.> because I was looking for it when I was watching it … thus why I recommend not doing that and just watching the movie for what it is
I would say its more like a spy movie. I think it gets the matrix comparison because its sci-fi.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I just thought the end where the camera pulls out and it turns out the whole thing took place inside an autistic kid’s snow globe was kind of far-fetched.
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!
And I really hope there is nothing about an autistic kid mind thing in Inception…. I really want to see it and don’t want ANY spoilers.
And with the Matrix comparisons, I am not comparing them (as I haven’t seen them) or was planning on it when I finally got to see it. I’ve been thinking that it will be like the Matrix in terms of a mind blowing movie unlike anything I have ever seen before, something I haven’t seen for such a long time.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
by Lindbergh 31 on Aug 3, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean unlike something NEW that I haven’t seen in a long time, I’ve seen some older movies that have done that, but nothing released in Hollywood for a long time has done that for me.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
by Lindbergh 31 on Aug 3, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to worry
No one here has said anything that should affect your experience watching the film.
by Prometheus74 on Aug 3, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
AWFUL
shutter island was terrible. the acting was adequate at best, the plaot was rehashed from countless other thirllers, and the ending was the same as every other psychological thirller out there for the past five years. the first time i saw a preview for it i told my gf what the ending was, and i had it exactly right.
I guessed the ending too but I still liked the movie. Its pretty easy to guess the end to any movie.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 11:58 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the problem is it was supposed to be a “twist”. the whole point is you arent supposed to see those coming. i guess i’m just sick of the way hollywood isnt doing ANYTHING original anymore. its all remakes of past movies, conversions of comic books and video games, or blatant theft of past movies that did well. this is the result of two things, that the fimmaker assumes the american viewer is stupid or that the filmmaker himself is stupid. unfortunately i think the viewing public in america is nothing but a bunch of mindless drones who buy whatever hollywood is selling. hence the reason there have been like 17 sequels to the fast and the furious. don’t get me wrong. i’ll gladly go see something that is supposed to be pure entertainment like iron man. i think megan fox is dumber than a steaming pile of dog shit, and has about the same ability to act. but if you’re going to film her running in a mini-skirt and tight shirt in slow motion, i’m buying. but i also like to see movies that challenge me and have actual substance, and those are becoming more and more rare.
As soon as I realized the twist which occurred when they first mentioned the boat’s destination I was just along for the ride. I also liked the last scene better than inception’s.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 1:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yo, go make a movie. I can’t wait to see what I have never seen before.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Nobody expects the Broad Street inquisition! Our chief criticism is cap space! Cap space and Shelley…Shelley and cap space…and Meszaros. Our three criticisms are Shelley, and cap space, and Meszaros…and an almost fanatical devotion to Gagne. Our four…no…I’ll come in again.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
by The Dark on Aug 2, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Even for your DLJr I won’t spoil this one for you best movie going experience for me since the Matrix in terms of the mind blowing plot. This one is not just about the special effects, it s about the plot all Christopher Nolan the best and most original filmmaker in a long time. Hopefully he doesn’t pull an M Night and shit the bed with the next 5 movies.
That’s the second Spanish Inquisition pastiche I’ve come across this morning. Clearly I should have learned to expect them by now.
Broad Street Inquisition
You better change your point of view today
’Cause the Broad Street Inquisition is here and its here to stay
by ic0n67 on Aug 2, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Ahhh…History of the World, Part I – a semi-guilty pleasure for me. Don’t get me wrong – I love almost all of Mel Brooks’ films, and this film makes me laugh every time I see it. BUT, I feel like I’m grading on a curve when I say I like it a lot. The man has a history, and this film is not “Blazing Saddles” or “Young Frankenstein”. (Then again, it is MUCH better than “Robin Hood: Men In Tights”, so it does have that going for it…)
Still, I love that picture. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Even so, I still enjoyed “Men in Tights” for what it was. “Spaceballs” is one of my faves. Beats a lot of the redux films of today.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I won’t belabor the point, but “Men In Tights” was more silly than funny. I just expected more from the film. “Spaceballs” was both silly and funny – I think that’s why opinions are so divided on it. And, yes, it does beat a lot of today’s films easily.
I still keep hoping for one more classic film from him, but that may be asking too much now. Heck, I’d take another “High Anxiety”-caliber film from him – that’s better than most films today too.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you say Men in Tights was silly fun and Blazing Saddles wasn’t silly funny. The whole Mongo thing is beyond silly. Great movies all of them for the most part minus Life Stinks which was okay to average.
“Blazing Saddles” was brilliant satire on the inanities of racism – a point missed by many people. At the time, race was not a common or acceptable topic of conversation – Mel Brooks brought the topic successfully to the silver screen. (Besides, Mongo was just a side character – and his role was a mini-satire of Westerns as well, since many Westerns had a character who was a little “slow”.)
“Men In Tights” had nothing like that in its plot.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Hahaha hiraous!!!! I’m gonna make this post green!
Anybody who references Monty Python is awesome, but that is just pure funny there.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
by Lindbergh 31 on Aug 2, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Well played sir!
But too silly
.
"In fact, it is probably safe to say, the statement "I am a hockey fan" is the same as "I hate gary bettman."- bfrank27
This comment needs to go into some sort of BSH hall of fame.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
I agree…. we should start a comment hall of fame type of thing and put it on the sidebar or something so we can hopefully all be inducted into a hall of fame someday.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
by Lindbergh 31 on Aug 3, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Someone could go back and collect all the “comment of the night” from the 09/10 season
by Prometheus74 on Aug 3, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I nominate Prometheus!
I was thinking about doing this.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
The serch feature seems to be pretty good
It will be nice to learn to utilize it as a tool.
Since its a lot of cut n paste I wont make a ton of spelling errors!
Give me some time and I will get it done
Like a few weeks, but I will get it done.
by Prometheus74 on Aug 3, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome, and then maybe we can add to it with other great ones like this, we’ll see how it goes.
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
by Lindbergh 31 on Aug 3, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Defensive contribution
As some of the comments have mentioned, I would really like to see the numbers adjusted for offensive zone start, maybe save %, and corsi/fenwick.
It’s funny, after Flyersfan94 went on about how good Walker was in his one fanpost, I wanted to do a nice neat comparison between him, O’Donnell, and Bartulis. It’s just tough to come to a nice conclusion with the advanced stats (hard to normalize them to compare one player to the other), and having a defensive contribution stat would be very helpful. I’m hoping someone takes the idea and really runs with it. I may try taking what Doctor did in his first post just as an effort to compare them, or may actually work at work today. Definitely one of those two.
Is this the right room for an argument?
GA/60 is probably the best thing out there right now I am not big on the advanced stats but that is probably the best stat out there.
Well I was going to compare GAON and GFON per 60. Then I was going to mention their QualComp and QualTeam’s, and also their Ozone Start and Finish ‘s. Walker isn’t very good in the GA/GF ON per 60, but he is also playing slighy better comp with vastly inferior teammates than O’Donnell, and O’Donnell is hidden with Ozone starts (about 56 starting in the Ozone), yet Walker starts 60% of his time in the Dzone, but finishes 52% of the time in the Ozone. So the thing is, how do you normalize them. So I really like the idea of creating a defensive contribution stat to have a better starting point for the comparison.
I did a quick version of the first link to BtN, and Walker has (using addition/subtraction method) a 1.07 GVA, O’Donnell has a 6.30GVA, and Bartulis has a -14.86 GVA (assuming I didn’t mess anything up). So O’Donnel is the best out of those 3, but this doesn’t account for the fact that he also had the highest percent of Ozone starts and it also doesn’t normalize for QualComp or Save % or Fenwick.
Is this the right room for an argument?
Do we think there’s any realistic chance that we go after Niemi?
I mean, hell, Homer has to see that he can waive Cote, Walker, and Boosh, sign NIemi, and have enough cap space to keep Bartulis on the roster and room for an injury callup or 13th F.
I still don’t know if I’d be comfortable with Niemi but where else is he going to play? The KHL?
Perhaps, I’m in the minority here, but I would really like to see Niemi join the Flyers. He frustrated the heck out of us in the SCF, and while he’s not invincible, I really liked the way he played. Plus, he seems like a really decent guy and is already buddies with Leino. C’mon Homer, let’s get this guy!
Sarauj, Latvija!
Well honestly the Flyers made him look pretty mortal compared to how he was man-handling the West. The only problem is he has 42 regular season games under his belt; he only made a name for himself in the playoffs last year really … he could just be a one hit wonder still … only time will tell.
shutout every 5th game
yeah… nobody seems to remember that he had 7 shutouts last year in only 35 games started. pretty impressive. i’ll take niemi over turco, price, leighton and boucher any day.
Well look at baseball for a sec. Every see a rookie pitcher come into the league and just bewilder opposing battlers until the book is out on him and all of a sudden he sucks. (read: Kyle Kendrick, Dontrell Willis).
I am not saying he is a bad goalie or that he isn’t the second coming of Terry Sawchuk, but he did look pedestrian at times in the finals. But like I said, time will tell .
I view goaltenders the way I view backend relief pitchers: volatile, streaky components to a team that can quickly become an albatross if given a costly or lengthy contract. There’s one Brodeur and one Mariano Rivera. Every other team has to deal with the ups and downs of Brad Lidge and Marty Biron. You’re better off developing your own or trying to find some diamond in the rough on the cheap discarded by another team.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
that’s what i heard too…so Niemi? we can have a tandem of both SCF goalies on the same team!!! too bad goaltending sucked during the finals
by historywillbemade on Aug 2, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t be surprised if Niemi went to MTL Price is still not signed. They are known for going after names. I think he has a chance to get more than that 2.75 million on the open market. I said it here 1st before the rumors start.
:O Then Price can walk and sign with Philly and my prediction of Price/Leighton in Philly this year will come true … THE PLANETS ARE ALIGNING!
I like to think there is added pressures for someone playing goal for the Canadiens. Plus wasn’t he a rookie that year?
Carey Price is nothing more than an average goalie
Who had one particular good season but inevitably capitulated when it counts(2008 playoffs against our boys, 2009 playoffs against Boston where he pulled this)
5. NO RINK IS AS BEAUTIFUL AS OURS
6. NO COACH IS AS ORANGE-TIED AS OURS
7. NO SPORTS TEAM ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH HAS MORE HEART THAN THE PHILADELPHIA FLYERS
Didn’t Saint Patrick end up leaving the Canadiens and going to a team loaded with scoring potential but starved for goal tending only to win a Cup with that team?
No I am not saying Price = Roy (far from it) … I’m just saying parallelism
But roy won two championships in montreal before leaving town to win two more. He and price are not at all comparable.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 12:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If somehow we ended up with Price he would become the youngest goalie in our system besides Riopel. With more NHL starts than anyone not name Boucher. He is 22 years old and still should be considered someone you can develop.
It all depends on his contract demands and what montreal wants in return.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 12:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
based on what they got for Halak it shouldn’t take all that much and based on Neimi’s arbitration award it should be less that 2.75 million.
Then the flyers aren’t an option because there aren’t any prospects at eller’s level. I don’t know that his salary would be less than niemi’s award because it has nothing to do with what price is actually worth more what price wants and the team are willingto give. Also there’s the question of contract length.
by tmurder on Aug 2, 2010 12:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ya know I think Price would be a perfect Flyer …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZWD_dJl-8o&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBnSKa4AZ9A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikeCcQg6sf4&feature=related
And plus every time he fails we could do this: (this alone would be worth picking him up for)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMt9712IU7c&feature=related
Eh, I’m not really for or against Price… Montreal is kind of a goalie graveyard anyway, I seem to remember that they nearly turned on Halak this year too. A new start with a different goalie coach and he may regain what he had as a rookie, but its not exactly a guarantee. I mean we can be a rough crowd, but after an escape from MTL this might feel like heaven.
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
so rumor is Turco signed for 1-1.5 million in Chicago. You mean we couldn’t afford that or was Homer waiting for Niemi to become available or is Leights really the starter?
by historywillbemade on Aug 2, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions
Just like Biron last year … We were not going to get him for the price. We offered Turco 2M for 3 years. He took 1.5 for 1 year because A) he wants to start and B) it is a short deal so he can look for a better job next year. Things have changed in the goalie spectrum so his current deal is reflective of the current situation. He though he would get more than 2M before, as it turns out of over valued himself out of a steady job for 3 years. The Flyers already made other plans in the mean time and the 2M a year was taken off the table. It happens all the time.
None of your argument makes sense. We could have waited on the goalie market. We don’t need a long term solution, we need a stop gap for our prospects, so a one-year deal is fine. He took 1.3 because he was desperate to avoid Russia, and would have came here for that price easy—read his very public quote about pushing for Philly. And, finally, he would have started here.
The “other plans” made are the entire crux of the argument. You can’t dismiss those out of hand.
How does it make no sense?
We offered him 2M he turns it down thinking he can get better. We them sign Leighton instead using (part of) that 2M. Now the Flyers have their goalies. Just like Biron last year where he wanted more money than what the Flyers were offering so he goes to free agency and signed with the Islanders for less money because he overvalued himself out of a contract. The Flyers look elsewhere and you have Ray Emery as your goalie.
He thinks he is a starting caliber goalie in the NHL. He signs a 1Y deal for a fraction of what he thinks he is worth so that next free agency he is able to negotiate for a job he wants and not wait til others control his employment. Much like Biron did when he signed first day.
If he REALLY wanted to be a Flyer he would have accepted the offer. It is like that girl in high school that gets asked to prom by the Average Joe only to reject him because she wants the football player to ask her out. Then lo and behold a week before prom she still doesn’t have a date and goes crawling back to Average Joe only to find out he already asked someone else out. Same deal here, ’cept you trade corsages for puck-induced welts.
If you don’t agree with the Flyers decision to sign Leighton before free agency after both Nabokov and Turco rejected their offer then that is on you and doesn’t enter into the situation at all other than the Flyers finding someone else to take up to their hotel room on prom night.
or if you don’t like the Biron argument … look towards the Manny Malhotra example. Takes crap money late in free agency to play and showcase is still has it and gets rewarded with a big contract on the first day of free agency the next year … (albeit an over-inflated contract, but a big one never the less)
Turco is too old to be thinking of playing for next contract and the goalie position is an entire different animal. Even if Turco wins the Veznia he is not going to get Thomas money next year, because the bad goalie contracts of Thomas, Huet, Theodore and Khabibulin and maybe even Giguere ruined the value of goalies across the league because two years later they were all getting out played by their backups who were making little to no money on the cap.
Other than that I agree he fucked himself and will probably be backing up Lundquist next year for the veteran minimum.
I just read this on SCH and it really empisiises the absurdity of paying too much for a goalie.
In addition, there hasn’t been a SCF since 2001 when Brodeur and Roy battled it out for the Stanley Cup has there been 2 netminders making over $2 million per season.
2002: Hasek and Irbe
2003: Brodeur and Giguere
2004: Khabibulin and Kiprusoff
2006: Ward vs. Roloson and Markkanen
2007: Giguere and Emery
2008: Osgood and Fleury
2009: Fleury and Osgood
2010: Niemi and Leighton
- goaltenders making less than $2 million a season in bold letters.
hawks61
It is never too late to think of more money :)
You think Theodore’s contract was all that bad? It was 4.5M (good for about 15th highest in the NHL for goalies) for only 2 Y. Not really as bad as Thomas or Huet when you consider he did start most of the time in Washington … just not much in the playoffs. I mean his numbers weren’t spectacular (winning % was great actually), but I don’t think the contract was that really choking the caps.
It could work ...
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Ville Leino ($0.800m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Jeff Carter ($5.000m) / Claude Giroux ($0.821m)
Daniel Carcillo ($1.075m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Nikolai Zherdev ($2.000m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Blair Betts ($0.700m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)
Darroll Powe ($0.725m)
DEFENSEMEN
Matt Carle ($3.437m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Sean O’Donnell ($1.300m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Michael Leighton ($1.550m) /Antti Niemi ($2.500m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,334,763; BONUSES: $937,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,002,737
There’s even room for some movement (injuries, etc) if necessary. I like it!!!
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
I like that roster better than what we have now odds are that Niemi and Leighton both won’t shit the bed especially behind that defense. Still rather use the Walker Cote money on a winger but I wouldn’t complain either way. 2.5 million for Niemi is nobad I expected him to get more in the Halak 3.5 – 4.0 range.
wow you just answer the question I had about whether or not we could afford Niemi at his arbitration decided price and from the looks of it we could. we would just need to see walker, cote, and boosh moved off the books
by historywillbemade on Aug 2, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I highly doubt Homer has plansof moving Walker.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
OK, so move O’Donnell (except his cap hit is lower, and Pronger would be pissed).
Or bounce Bartulis to the minors, and reduce your available cap space by $400,000.
Or trade one of the plethora of defencemen for some picks, a new zamboni, and the rights to negotiate with Brashear (or something equally worthless).
Point is, at the salary he was awarded or thereabouts, Niemi could fit under the cap here.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
I guess my point was sure, you could move salary to make it happen, but I don’t see Homer doing that or making it happen. I probably would have disagreed with any scenario b/c I don’t see it happening. But also, people need to get the idea that Walker is going to be moved anywhere out of there head until Homer starts acting like he is not interested in him on the roster.
I know it’s possible, I’m just saying it isn’t likely. And since then, it’s been posted on here that Homer is not interested, which is part of my point. It’s possible to fit Niemi a lot of places, including Chicago, but like Chicago, I don’t see the Flyers making the moves to have him fit here, which was part of what I was inferring. They aren’t moving Walker or O’Donnell, if I were to play the guessing game, for anyone (barring some unbelievable opportunity or for someone Homer has been after for a while, Niemi is neither).
Is this the right room for an argument?
Is Niemi really 6ft 2in I thought he was much smaller in the 5ft 10in range looks really small in the net.
In no way do I understand the attraction of baseball.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
If you don’t grow up with it, it can be difficult to pick up the allure.
I have exactly the same problem with cricket here – I will just never like it, and I am mystified that anyone ever could.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Still working on that right now.
In all honesty, I will probably only ever be a Phillies fan from June to September.
That’s because you grew up with it – you’re proving my point perfectly. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
But now that you’re in England, you should at least watch a 5-dayer or two. Just to give it a try.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
No fucking way – it’s as pointless to me as baseball is to you. :) (My wife and family also wouldn’t get the joke if I became addicted to cricket.)
All in all, I am so grateful that I can watch sports that I want to watch on the Internet.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
As an american I prefer cricket to baseball
Id say 99.3% of americans dont know anything about cricket, and the MLB will make sure it never gets any time on TV.
The last thing they want is competition
I hate baseball, even before I learned how corrupt the unions and League are
Boom
The Black Caps played Sri Lanka in Florida a month or two ago. Was there any coverage of that?
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
As an american who hates baseball and likes cricket, I know in in the double minority
It wasnt on ESPN!
The NFL makes sure that Rugby gets no major coverage too.
I only got into Cricket when I was living in South Africa
It was a terrible series anyway. But it was supposed to be a huge marketing thing.
No rugby! That would be terrible for me.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Now, rugby I like – Australian Rules Football too.
I used to watch both even when I was living in the States.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Rugby and Football!!!!
Both for different reasons.
Haven seen Australian Rules Football in over a dozen years so I no longer can say I like it.
Rugby is easily the best sport in the world. Admittedly, as an ex-player and ex-coach, I’m a BIT biased, but still, everyone should give it a watch sometime. Makes you realize what wimps football players are.
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
by penguinsfan on Aug 2, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You coached in the US?
I wouldn’t exactly say wimps, just that rugby players are extremely hard. I never got used to getting hit.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Coached three collegiate teams over the years.
And while I admit, getting hit with all that padding and helmet can definitely hurt (played football in HS), getting hit without it hurts a helluva lot more. That’s why I always trained my guys to initiate the hit instead of accepting it. :)
Maybe it should read "reformedpenguinsfan" since I have retired my Lemeiux jersey ... and purchased an Orange and Black Pronger jersey.
Sucks you have to watch Northern Hemisphere competition though hah!
AFL is a game I don’t understand no matter how many games I watch or how many times I read the rules. It’s just weird.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
No, the major tournaments in rugby are televised in the US.
AFL is cool – i wish I could still see it.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Rugby is big in New Zealand, huh? Never got to watch it but my friend is a big fan of rugby. And I love Haka!
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
The “All Blacks” are one of the very best rugby teams in the history of the sport.
I’m sure Todd will concur. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The All Blacks are generally always 1-2 in the world. We’re always number 1 the year before the World Cup, and then choke in the cup competition. We haven’t won it since 1987!
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
How often is the World Cup?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Every four years. When you’re the best team in the world, you should win more than once.
Also, Invictus is a lie!
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
And you haven’t won since 1987? 1987… that’s kinda weird for an event that is happening every four years. I mean… I’m used to years like 1998, 2002, 2006 and such… you know, even numbers.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
I think rugby was quite late to the World Cup scene, so all the even years were taken.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
I see, I see. That makes sense. Ohhh… so the next World Cup is next year, non? Where does it take place?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Yes indeed. It’s in New Zealand! Somehow we managed to get it, despite having tiny stadiums and awful infrastructure.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Is it in Wellington?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
It’s spread all around the country and the semi-finals and finals will be played in Auckland.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Seems like busy time for New Zealand. If I don’t forget, I’ll cheer for you, Kiwis :D
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Haha thanks. If we lose again, the country will probably need to be shut-down for a month of mourning.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Who’s your biggest rival? Probably silly question but… I never really watched rugby :)
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
It is really hard to decide between Australia and South Africa. Mainly because we play them the most, and are often the biggest competiton.
France always knocks us out of Cups though, so it could be them.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Big is probably an understatement. It is THE sport.
The haka is very impressive.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
I loved how the LOTR stunt team did haka to Viggo Mortensen and Bernard Hill… That was amazing… anddd… I’m way off topic.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Yeah, we suffer from haka saturation. Everyone does it at almost any opportunity they get. I think at a Commonwealth games, the team did it after every medal.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
But I still think it’s pretty amazing. Always gives me chills when I get to see it… Wish I could see it in person one day.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
I still haven’t seen it in person :[
I went to a game this year, but as I was walking up to the stadium it started. That freaking sucked.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Damn! That must have sucked! :( Hey, I’ll come down to the New Zealand and we’ll go to a game together. Gagne jersey should be fine for a rugby game, right? Ehm…
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
My gf decided she wanted me to go back and pick up hitch-hikers about 10 minutes after we drove past them.
Yeah should be, I wear mine around and people have no idea who Gag-knee is.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
(face palm) Oh my goodness.
And “Gag-knee” made me literally LOL. Hahahaha, oh boy… that’s just too funny.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Is it Gag-knee or the orange that draws the most attention? What’s wrong with orange to begin with?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
It’s orange. All our sports teams wear black or white.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
That’s interesting. Is there any meaning behind it?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
It started with the All Blacks, and then due to the success of them everyone jumped on board.
Cricket=Black Caps
Hockey= Black Sticks
Football=All Whites
I really don’t know why though.
Oh yeah, our badminton team is the Black Cocks. For realz
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Football’s the All Whites because home sides aren’t allowed to wear black, as that’s the referee’s color. I have no idea why away sides can wear black, but nobody said the rule needed to make sense.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Yeah I have no idea either. The original All Blacks wore dark-blue but apparently the reporter was colour-blind or something
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Others I’m finding:
Women’s Rugby = Black Ferns
Netball = Silver Ferns
Women’s Cricket = White Ferns
Women’s Basketball = Tall Ferns
Softball = Black Sox
Australian Football = Falcons
American Football = Iron Blacks
And I had thought the Black Sticks were field hockey, and ice hockey were the Ice Blacks, but maybe I’m out of date.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Black co—- O_o Okay, okay. Not commenting, not commenting…
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
If you want a good laugh, my high school mascot was a steroid-enhanced over-pumped rooster…. they got our school’s team identity from the town’s history where cock-fighting was popular entertainment a century ago. So I had to play field hockey wearing a polo with a Fighting Cock holding a hockey stick embroidered on the front. If that’s not embarrassing I honestly don’t know what is.
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Awe… I would pull you in a comforting hug. That must have been life changing experience… not in a good way.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
I agree, yours is bad too.
This is a recent image (although somehow the graphic looks worse than 10 years ago, first time I remember seeing a graphic design become lower quality over time), and I think he might have been a little more pumped up when I graduated:
Now put a field hockey stick, curved end and all, in the hand of that rooster, and it was pretty bad. I’m sure the high schools of anyone here who grew up in deep South Jersey made fun of it.
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 5:06 AM EDT up reply actions
The Black Caps played Sri Lanka in Florida a month or two ago. Was there any coverage of that?
Very minor local coverage, but no national coverage that I noticed.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Somewhat disappointing. We got full games here, and they were really poor because the pitch was awful.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
The worst part is, that’s the only ICC-certified pitch in the States. Vettori mentioned the pitch was in poor condition, but that the rest of the facilities were world class.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Really? That is shocking.
You know who Vettori is? <3
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Sure…he was the guy they interviewed after the matches ;)
In all honestly, I had vaguely heard of him. Cricket’s not a sport I follow much, but I have British acquaintances, so knowing the names is a form of self-defense, so that I know the conversation’s something I know nothing about.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Hah alright. He’s certainly one of my hero’s.
Did you see this?
Black Caps’ throw first pitch in MLB game
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Twitter is full of it and it’s driving me nuts!
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Yup, baseball. People tweeting during games and about trades and such. And I’m always like “What the hell are you talking about?”
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
The greatest contribution baseball made to the world was the baseball bat. Nearly every NZer will have one, and more often than not it’s not used for baseball.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Yes, the cap is everywhere. The bat has done well for itself too. :)
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that Stephen King’s book about a little girl who was a baseball fan is good too. That’s not directly contribution of baseball though… Hmm
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
I LOVE BASEBALL!
Actually love all sports except for boxing, Nascar and UFC.
God, baseball on a beautiful, clear summer day—75 degrees, light breeze blowing out, Tony Luke’s roast pork sandwich, Crab fries and a cold beer and that green, green grass—that’s heaven to me. Hockey is a very, very close second in my world, like 1AA.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
But all that has nothing to do with the sport!
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Ah, but the atmosphere has everything to do with watching the sport! What doubleh has described does make baseball very enjoyable to watch.
Again, you weren’t raised with baseball, so it will forever seem a bit foreign. If you were raised with it, it can be quite magical.
#1 Flyers fan in England (originally from Southeastern PA)
by Orange and Black Forever on Aug 2, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree.
Sports and appropriate weather go hand in hand.
Give me a nice, sunny, mid-July day at The Park Where Citizens Bank and I’m the happiest of campers.
I’ll also take a frigid January night where I’m all bundled up and briskly walking to the Center Formerly Known as Wachovia, eagerly anticipating the puck dropping.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Oh, yeah—hockey in that nuthouse—again with Crab fries and a cold beer—with the loud music, buzzing skates, flashing lights. My son absolutely adores hockey live (but hates it on TV), except for the time we went a huge brawl erupted at the end of the game this past year. The place turned ugly quick.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
It has everything to do with the sport. I associate all those things with Phillies baseball. Crab fries you can get at the Wells Fargo Center, but they are best at a Phillies game. Tony Luke’s is a Philly thing, but so good when watching Chase Utley stroll up to the plate. Beer and baseball are like peanut butter and jelly.
OK, want more in-depth about baseball? It’s like poetry to me in motion. The dance of the batter vs. pitcher, the amazing catch or twin killing, the outfield assist (the play I love most in baseball), the majestic flyball that leaves the park by 4 miles (thank you, Matt Stairs)…the crack of the bat, the whiff of a Roy Halladay cutter…I could go on and on.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
So the atmosphere is accentuated by having decent weather? I guess that’s fair.
Maybe I need to see a game live to really appreciate it. I have tried to watch games, but it’s too samey.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Well, around these here parts days like that are often referred to as “baseball weather,” so it is quite closely connected.
I think any sport live is 1000 times better, although you are safer watching an NFL game from the comfort of your own living room. And I think it’s important to attend with someone who follows the game so it helps with your initiation.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
You forgot The Bouncing of Cholly’s Belly as he goes up to take the baseball from Danys Baez. There’s some poetry there, too.
Seriously though, hockey is the same way for me. Always has been. I love the motion of an effective penalty kill, the smooth, sudden, instinctual passes and one-timers of an effective power play, a well-executed odd-man rush, an brilliant save, and the beauty of the unexpected (like Mike Richards’ shortie against Montreal – a near-perfect lob pass, a race to the puck, and the next thing you know bodies are lying everywhere, Richie has all day to put the puck in, and the crowd just KNOWS what’s coming next).
Hockey and baseball seem to have more “Wait, Did That Just Happen?” moments than other games, but maybe I just see them that way because they’re my favorites.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
My dad went to a baseball game once. He said that it was even worse experience than an NBA game. He boiled in the sun, watched some guys running around, not knowing what the heck is going on and eventually left midway through the game. Well… That’s what happens when you go to see a sport you’ve never paid attention to before.
I personally hate all the tweets about baseball and such because I simply don’t know what’s going on and what the people talk about. I wish I knew and I wish I understood. But they never broadcast MLB over here… and… and where should I even start? How do people start following baseball?
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
How do people start following baseball?
You root for the Phillies and the rest falls into place. Just stay away from the Yankees.
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Sad thing is that I don’t even know one single baseball player. Current, retired, passed. No one. Not one name.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
Chase Utley!
Thanks, Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
He’s a good one to follow. If you like Simon Gagne, you’ll like Chase Utley. Hardnosed, very skilled player who does everything he’s asked and more (but with a touch more profanity). Tee, hee.
Second favorite baseball player of all time behind only Michael Jack. That’s some good company.
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I’ll look him up then… :) Need to start somewhere.
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
If you want a younger player that’s likely to stay for years, look up Domonic Brown. He just got called up to the Majors for the first time as an injury replacement, and was the top-ranked minor leaguer before his call-up.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
So the minors and the farming system… is it similar to the NHL? Stupid question, but I’m baseball dummy…
Hey, I just realized… I know a baseball guy! ERIC GAGNE! Hahahahahaha… (gone, laughing forever)
I love the Lightning AND the Flyers... go ahead, preach me!
Dare to follow my childish, biased, petty and cheesy alter ego.
American Cheese, B!tch! ... #1 mission? Kill Holmgren.
It’s actually more thorough than the NHL. There are two times a player can be drafted – out of high school, or after his junior year of college. Freshmen and sophomores can’t be drafted (not sure why). There’s a lot of leagues:
Rookie – a short season to get new players adjusted to the pro life
Short A – June to September, designed to let college players play in the College World Series and then jump to their pro team
A – full season, lowest league with a full season. Usually first year players or second year less-talented players
A+ – high-level first year players (top draft picks) or second-year players.
AA – players with a couple years of experience or young foreign players that played professionally before entering the American baseball system.
AAA – roughly equivalent to the AHL, the most-ready prospects and veterans not at the level to play in MLB. Also used for injury rehab.
To give an idea of how players move through the system, I’ll use Utley and Brown. Utley was a more traditional level-by-level advancement, Brown’s jumped all over.
Chase Utley was drafted as a high-schooler in the 2nd round by LA in 1997. He declined to sign a contract.
In 2000, the Phillies signed him in the 1st round.
Utley played 2000 in Short A after the college season ended.
In 2001, he played A+ ball, skipping regular A.
In 2002, he played AAA, skipping AA, but played at third base instead of second.
In 2003, he played mostly AAA (113 games), with 43 games in MLB.
In 2004, he played half a season at AAA and the other half in MLB.
2007, he returned to AAA for 3 games for injury rehab.
Dom Brown is a much younger player, drafted in the 20th round in 2006. He’s more raw than Utley was, as a high school draftee, but also has ridiculous athleticism.
At age 18 in 2006, he played Rookie ball
In 2007, he played in both Short A and A+
In 2008, he played in regular A
For 2009, he played Rookie, A+, and AA
So far in 2010, he’s played AA, AAA, and MLB
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Chase Utley is the best 2nd Baseman in baseball, and definitely all time for the Phillies. As you said he does everything right and everything we could ever expect and more. He better not play for anybody other than the Phillies. He is being really missed due to his injury.
In the words of the great Harry Kalas “Chase Utely… You are the man!”
#1 Flyers Fan in New York
Good bye #12, you will truly be missed.
by Lindbergh 31 on Aug 3, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
The best thing I have ever heard about Chase Utley
Dear Chase,
I feel like I can call you Chase because you and me are so much alike. I would love to meet you someday, it would be great to have a catch. I know I can’t throw as fast as you, but I think you would be impressed with my speed. I love your hair. You run fast. Did you have a good relationship with your father? Me neither. These are all things we can talk about, and more. I know you have not been getting my letters because I know you would write back if you did. And I hope you write back this time and we get to be good friends. I am sure our relationship would be a real home run.
Signed,
Mac. ’
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
My fandom latched onto Utley the very first time I saw him called up… I sound like a frontrunner now, but I was hooked immediately; I even took it well when he made the final out at the Vet.
His personality is a bit like Gagne too, that talented guy who doesn’t necessarily enjoy the spotlight and is always hard-working and modest…. I totally never saw it from that angle before.
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Utley is somewhere between Gagne and Richards. He has Gagne’s work eithic and modesty, and Richie’s quiet leadership and “hate-to-lose” attitude.
But then again, as we all know, the Flyers DROWN puppies while Chase Utley SAVES them.
/sarcasm
Do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps?
Very true. I didn’t mean to imply they were exactly alike, just point out a similarity, but you’re much closer to a thorough description.
Although we might need to throw in a dash of Lappy too, because man does Utley sacrifice his body out there.
by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, and sometimes needlessly. Headfirst slides are just sooooo stupid.
I loves me some Utz, though. He is a combo of Richie and Gagne, you’re right, mikefive. I was just trying to tell Katchis that she’d definitely like Utley. Man, who doesn’t? (Besides C.C. Sabathia?)
Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
I would take him for 2.5. And I don’t think he has a legitimate shot at pulling in more than that unless someone offers him a starting job.
by 02h32m01s on Aug 2, 2010 4:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
that was on Niemi
Apparently my phone did not update before the Rounders and such discussions.
by 02h32m01s on Aug 2, 2010 4:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Because I know Geoff likes it when we talk about the links he provides....
I read a lot of the advanced stats guys, like BtN, Tom Awad, Vic Ferrari etc because they do amazing stuff. But sometimes, sheesh, their work goes way over my head. Generally I understand the pretext and reasoning for analysing something, and their discussion is usually fairly clear. But the actual analysis, woooooooooooooosh
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
haha, I wasn’t very impressed with these two links, but I thought the idea had potential. I mean, I love GFON/60 & GAON/60. Seeing a number come out using only that was intriguing, if imperfect.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 2, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s like advanced advanced. And it generally loses me.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
And I don’t even link to the massively advanced – with just formulas, numbers, and equations. Because even they go over my head.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 2, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If you ever want to sit down and try to sift through them (or anything in particular) I’d be up for it. I hope between my BS in Chemical Engr and my MS in Economics (with a focus in Econometrics) I remember enough math to be at least slightly better than useless. Plus I miss the theory that grad school provided, and coming up with predictive equations…I mean don’t get me wrong, I like my job, but I feel like parts of my brain are dieing b/c I don’t use them anymore.
My background should also explain why my spelling and grammar are terrible.
Is this the right room for an argument?
I love the idea…it hope it does go somewhere b/c as I mentioned earlier, I was really trying to draw a nice picture that Walker is terrible for 3 years at $1.7 regardless if it was Gagne that got him here or a bag of pucks. But given the his huge amount of DZone starts compared to O’Donnell, I felt comparing their GFON/60 & GAON/60 to be misleading.
Bottom line, someone with some extra time get to work…
Is this the right room for an argument?
haha, yeah. There’s just too much that it doesn’t take into account – zone starts being one of them.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 2, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
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