2011 and Carter
by chrislanci on Aug 23, 2010 11:22 AM EDT
Email
PrintEvery single thread at some point on the BSH regardless of topic pretty much contains a comment along the lines of ...
Flyers have to trade Carter we can't afford him next year and keep Giroux, Leino, and Zherdev.
Giroux will be here no doubt and Leino and Zherdev still have to prove themselves in my book before I pencil them in as long term core guys. But Carter has done it he is the best goal scorer on the team clearly now that Gagne is gone. But we can Carter's merit all day some people clearly don't like the guy for some reason or another but none of that matters.
Why do you ask?
Because if look at the way our franchise is setup and our depth in the organization, it is all on the blueline not much up front. Whoever you lose up front should be replaced by the next up and coming forward from our farm system on low priced entry level contract. But there isn't much there especially at the level/potential of a Carter, Zherdev and Leino all of whom are 26 or younger.
But the Flyers system blueline is stacked and that is where we can save the money next year to keep everyone up front. One of Coburn, Carle or Meszaros could be moved along with O'Donnell and Walker in favor of Marshall, Bourdon, Bartulis, and Lehutruvi from the Phantoms or impressive Bodrov, and Bertilsson who are playing overseas. That would free up 4-5 million bucks.
We already ready have by a long ways the highest paid D in the league. If two of those names can crack the roster full-time in 2011 we can easily keep all the forwards including Carter in our lineup for years to come. It will certainly weaken our blueline compared to this season but that is salary cap hockey you have to have a steady influx of entry level contracts to keep your team together and the only entry levels guys in the system you look even remotely close to being NHL ready are D-Men.
Plus with stars like Pronger and Kimmo as D partners they can carry the young guys and Backlund taking over goal full time we won't need the overloaded D in 2011 anyway.
This is something to watch in training camp, not who will be making the team this year, but which D-men are poised to make the jump next year when someone will pretty much have to.
This item was written by a member of this community and is not necessarily endorsed by Broad Street Hockey.
37 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Yes it is true, the defense that the flyers have is very expensive, but it will free up in the coming years. O’Donnell will not be here beyond this season one way or another, he has a one year deal and is just making on last run at the cup. Walker will also probably be moved unless he can really step up. Unless they have terrible seasons, i say Meszaros, Coburn and Carle will stay around for a long time for when Pronger and Timonen retire. On forwards, you are right about how we have lack of depth at the ahl level to replace carter, but there are other ways to replace him. You re-sign Giroux for 3.5 to 4, Zherdev for 3 and leino for around 2 (assuming they well enough this season). JVR will probably be scoring 20 goals per season by then along with giroux and zherdev. Then if someone is not ready on the phantoms, you take a cheap guy in free agency for a third line guy. Carter will be a big loss, but it seems right now it’s the way to go.
I think that the odd man out is Hartnell, Kimmo, or Carel after this season. But if we keep all three, I think we keep Carter over Giroux. Which I would love to keep both players, Im starting to come around to the idea that Carter and Giroux are more or less equal offensively, with Carter being a better defender.
The laws of alchemy dont justify murder........but the laws of murder justify being a cowboys fan :P
What?
First off, no way Timonen gets moved, he has 3 years left on his deal and then will probably retire. Second, Carle improved greatly this season and probably won’t be moved either becuase he will be looked at as a defenseman of the future. I agree with you on a certain extent on Hartnell, that he probably has this year to prove himself as the player he used to be. But on the last note, how do you say Carter is better than Giroux defensively? Carter was replaced on the pk by Giroux last season even before his injury. The only reason we see Carter being kept over Giroux is because Holmgren has a hard-on for Carter. Giroux will be cheaper and in my opinion is a better player.
Carter was replace in the playoffs because he was hurt and didnt want to over work him. And if you remember correctly, that Giroux was replaced by Powe too. Also, if you watched any part of the regular season(which most fans seem to forget), Giroux was very, very weak defensively. He was on Danny’s level, thats how bad he was. On to whos the better player offensively, Its hard to tell. Carter was really bad in the begining, but turned it up to super level near the end and was the main reason we actually made the playoffs, where Giroux was never terrible, but he didnt show anything spectacular last year either. My theory is that Carter will score 40-50 goals next year, so if Giroux is going to stay, he needs to turn his game the fuck up during the regular season. Im tired of this bullshit “Well they’re playoff players” nonsense. Yeah thats fine and dandy, but it means jack shit if we cant even make the playoffs.
The laws of alchemy dont justify murder........but the laws of murder justify being a cowboys fan :P
Giroux v. Carter
Giroux played against better opposition (0.041 v. 0.028 QualComp), with worse teammates (0.030 v. 0.083), starting in the defensive zone more often (49.4% of the time v. 46.7%), giving up fewer shots (25.3 v. 30.9), and fewer goals (2.54 v. 2.64), despite having worse goaltending (0.909 SvP v. 0.921) while on the ice.
How, exactly, was Jeff Carter better defensively than Claude Giroux?
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Aug 23, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Giroux is not better than Carter come on now.
2) What are you going to do with all these young up and coming D-Men. They have to make that jump if you wait 3 years for Kimmo to retire that is way too look they will want NHL time. Carle and Coburn are fine players but I imagine the downgrade between one of those guys and Coburn isn’t that horrendous by 2011 especially when paired with Kimmo or Pronger who can make Carle into stud. Plus the trade value of Carle or Coburn might get you some good forward prospects or draft picks in return.
But your going to get the same type of trade value for giroux too, so why not trade him for players/picks(if need be)?
The laws of alchemy dont justify murder........but the laws of murder justify being a cowboys fan :P
Because we have no one in the system to replace Giroux who is going to be really good for many years. And we need to bring up some of these defensemen that are starting to log jam up in the system. Carle and Coburn are replaceable with entry level contracts neither proved them selves able to carry the 3rd pairing, Coburn was rather dissapointing last year until the playoffsl. If Mez who is younger and more experienced proves he can carry the 3rd pairing I move Carle and replace him wiith a rookie, Pronger and Marshall or Bourdon or whoever won’t make that much of difference.
But we have no one that can replace Carter either.
The laws of alchemy dont justify murder........but the laws of murder justify being a cowboys fan :P
But aren’t we agreeing that with a movement of a Coburn/Mez/Carle we will be able to keep both Carter and Giroux?
by OrangeNblacK on Aug 23, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Giroux over Carter
- Carter gets you better return should you trade him (1st rounder and high level prospect likely, Phil Kessel type trade would be optimal but unlikely)
- Giroux won’t cost you 6 million plus over the next few seasons, if we sign him short-term then he’ll expect to peak on his next contract. If long-term then we’ll probably even out the salary a bit.
- Giroux is not a defensive sieve, I have no idea where you’re getting that. How many times during the regular season when we used to break down plays did we see Giroux causing a goal? People blamed JVR, Coburn, Hartnell, Carcillo etc. etc. but Giroux’s name barely came up.
- Giroux’s raw talent is special. His vision and his playmaking is special.
- If Giroux and Carter a re essentially equal offensively, why not keep the cheaper hardworking 22 year old who has 2 strong playoff performances in 2 seasons and could be a future superstar
- Could the fans really take losing Gagne and Giroux in the space of a year!?!?!?
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Aug 24, 2010 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions
and also, I doubt we keep Zherdev after this season, and Leino will only cost at max, $1.5 mill.
The laws of alchemy dont justify murder........but the laws of murder justify being a cowboys fan :P
I too doubt that Zherdev will be here long term the key is for him to have nice season but not a huge season thus making him impossible to resign. Either way unless the cap goes up another nice chunk of money I think this years roster will be the best we will have for a couple of years until a couple more contracts expire.
Leino at 1.5 million
Are you serious?
Considering he can look across the locker room and see a guy like Jody Shelley getting 1.1 million, and look at himself at this very moment and see the all-time rookie playoff scoring record to his name, he would have to have a terrible terrible 2010-11 season to accept 1.5 million. And if Leino is playing at 1.5 million level, we’ve probably got bigger wing issues to worry about and need to pick up salary to fix them.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Aug 24, 2010 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I actually think this is a great chance for Giroux, Leino, Carter and Z to all play for a contract. If the Flyers have those four players hungry to prove themselves to the organisation or other teams, then their on ice performance could be spectacular. Personally, I only want to see Giroux given a contract before the season is over.
There is a lot of money on the blue line that could be moved, specifically Walker, O’Donnell and Carle (not a Carle hater, I just think he’s the only other one with a moveable contract), to clear more space. This would be easier to do if Bartulis et al progress enough that they are worthy of a roster spot.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
The Flyers need to let Carter go. He is obviousley (as of now) a better player then Giroux, but how do yo expect the Flyers to have Giroux, Richards, Carter and Briere locked up long term? The Penguins tried to do that and look what happened, they have only one winger capable of playing top six minutes. Boston has the same problem and now are trying to deal Savard. They have Savard, Kreijci and Bergeron all locked up long-term, and have Seguin, Hamill and Colbourne waiting for their shot. I know that the Flyers do not have tremendous forward prospects, but they can also dip into free agency. If the Flyers have a top six of Richards, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell, Leino and Zherdev along with JVR, I’m sure they can go find one or two third line players to help out. I agree that someone on the defense has to go, and it’ll prolly be one of Coburn, Meszaros and Carle. After this year O’Donnell will be gone, and Walker is also on a short leash.
That’s not entirely accurate.
Not going anywhere: Richards, Briere
Almost zero chance: Giroux
Reasonable chance: Carter
Why not shift Carter to wing to keep him around? I do think the best thing would be to send him to, say, STL or LAK because they presumably want a scorer and have deep prospect pools.
The Pens have 2 superstar centers and one of the best two-way centers in the game. The Bs only have an issue this season; after that Bergeron is likely gone since he’s UFA, unless they shift someone to wing or deal Savard.
by red army line on Aug 24, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Carter cannot be kept around because of the cap. Look at this cap situation if the Flyers were to sign Carter and Giroux: Richards 5.6, Briere: 6.5, Hartnell: 4.2, Carter: 6, Giroux: 3-4. That’s around 26 million between those five players. Now add in Leino and Zherdev: combined around another 6 million, so we’re up to around 32 million. And as of now, the defense of next year is costing around 25 million, so i rather not take those chances so close to the cap.
Holmgren will be looking to make the best team. Carter won’t be moved solely for cap purposes, or one of Malkin/Crosby would be gone from PIT already. He’ll be moved because there is a player who is just as good and much cheaper. I don’t see it if Carter is at wing. He’s better than Zherdev, and may be better than Carle or Coburn too. Those last two look like they could be easily movable.
by red army line on Aug 24, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Holmgren will be looking to make the best team. Carter won’t be moved solely for cap purposes
Um, Mister President, that’s not entirely accurate.
See Upshall, Scott. Metropolit, Glen. Gagne, Simon.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Aug 24, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You can only deal away so many players without substantially hurting your depth. Right? Any team is going to hurt if they lost 2 30-40 goal scorers within a few months.
by red army line on Aug 25, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
A normal person would agree. Paul Holmgren is not a normal person. I have no doubt in his ability to do something stupid.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Aug 25, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
For as much as we bash Homer.
3 years as full GM
1 ECF
1 SCF
1 -1st round lost to eventually cup champs
That is pretty damn good results.
Because Homer really knew that the team which in March he was acknowledging needed major changes would go crazy in the playoffs.
Homer has also overseen two of the worst regular seasons in the last 15 years of Flyers history.
Anyway, I generally don’t have a problem with Homer’s trading, it’s just his cap management is terrible. We need someone who is able to handle the salary cap era.
Simon Gagne may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home, but at the end of the day, he will always be a Philadelphia Flyer.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Aug 27, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s not the issue, the issue is that at any time he has the ability to fly off the handle and do something so stupid you literally cannot justify his thinking. It’s not that he makes bad moves, it’s that he has such terrible foresight that he forces himself into positions where the only move is a bad move.
The SCF appearance was also a team that was a point away from missing the playoffs with a maxed out cap. Homer has built a roster of good players, he has failed to build a cohesive team.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Aug 28, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You can't have it all.
Holmgren only thinks short-term. He got rid of Gagne as a short term solution, but in reality after this season having Zherdev will be the same cost as Gagne. Zherdev is taking a pay cut to come back to the NHL, but if he has a 20+ goal season he’ll go up to at least 3.5, which is what Gagne would’ve prolly gotten here. Carter will want his price to go up, as will Giroux and Leino. You have to make choices, and even though Carter is a phenomenal player, he can get assets for this team that we really need. Good forward prospects for one along with some high draft picks. Giroux will bring you less and if you keep him will cost you less.
L.A.
Just do add to what I had to say, the Kings were willing to roll over backwards for Carter if Holmgren would consider an offer. I read multiple rumors stating that the Kings were willing to part with Moller and Parse. You get those two plus lets say a third (because you are already getting a lot), and you’re set. Moller goes down to help out the phantoms for one or two season, and Parse competes for a job on the Flyers. Parse would be great on a line with Richards and Gagne (Gags is here cuz if Carter was traded earlier this summer Gagne would not have been), or even maybe with Giroux and JVR.
Also Pittsburg has Malkin and Crosby at 8.7500 million cap hits, Carter Richards Briere are all under 7 million so we can keep more players together.
The Richards deal is the best in hockey, IMO. Great bargain.
by red army line on Aug 25, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough
And if one of our prospect defenders can step up that would be a fair route to go through.
I do think that having Richards, Briere, Giroux and Carter on long-term contracts might be problematic unless one of them proves that they are optimal on wing. Also if you try adding JVR to that list the next offseason, we might be looking at going from defensive powerhouse to being Capitals-esque.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Aug 24, 2010 5:50 AM EDT reply actions
You are correct
27.775 million versus 25.991 million, per Capgeek.
by red army line on Aug 24, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Problem is.............
The problem is Briere is overpaid. I like the guy alot don’t get me wrong. He is not the 89 point guy from his last year in buffalo or his best year hear 69 points. He would have high value for teams. 6.5 mill for what he does is too much. Not to mention he is bad on defense. Unless he puts up 65+ points he would be my choice to go to save cap space. Plus the return would be good i would think.
MSG to Flyers stop giving NTC to players that haven’t did anything for our team yet
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Puck Previews: Blackhawks reeling; Sabres streaking; Holmstrom’s 1000th game
- Will Teemu Selanne remain with the Anaheim Ducks through the trade deadline?
- Nikolai Zherdev takes stick to crotch, elbow drop in KHL game (Video)
- Puck Headlines: Accused coach Pravilov dead; more Tim Thomas heat; Junior team goes nuts post-shootout
- After Scott Gomez scored, other candidates for NHL goal drought obsessions
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
